Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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frukoyurdakul
After discussions made on #taiko channel I have come to write my opinions about this scoreV2 system.

About these finisher hits: That's unneccessary. This forces to play taiko with 4 fingers even there are so many index finger players. This is important because of the finishers after 1/4 or 1/6 streams (which are seen from convert maps) will be unneccesarily hard to hit for 2 finger players. Score change is fair, but having a miss on a single hit is not.

Drum rolls: Not unlogical, but have some mistakes in my opinion. Because this makes sliders harder than streams which can be hit with 100 points. If you miss the first tick on this slider, it will be very hard to hit them right again because the ticks are more difficult to hit than the original notes.

Spinners: Bye bye loved maps.

Health: Not fair. Because if you miss in a stream, (for me anyway, maybe I'm doing it wrong) it's very hard to recover in a stream without a break about 10 or 15ms to hit another note, which causes unconsistency unneccesarily. For example: In a 200 BPM song, if it has +-70ms (which is a 140ms gap, OD 6.5), you will miss every note in a 1/4 stream because the song will have 75 ms gap between these 2 notes (think of it as 1 note and it will be 37.5 ms) and you miss it automatically. Mania does not have it hence it has this HP system. Taiko maps are a note in a flat line and doesn't work as mania as. So Taiko can't have this system in my opinion.
BrokenArrow

Nofool wrote:

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.
The score system shouldn't be balanced around unrankable maps, ever. That's just retarded.
guro

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
You see, drumrolls and spinners can be ignored in the original game aswell, although the changes to those objects are mostly reasonable.
However, the planned change to finisher notes is just a poor decision. Even if you hit the finisher note with one key instead of two, you essentially still hit it. Gaining less score from that is a completely fair and reasonable punishment, punishing that with a miss is taking things a bit too far. As frukoyurdakul said, hitting finisher notes at the end of a 1/4 stream or pattern will be just a pain to hit. Don't even start with justifying it with jacks in mania. Taiko isn't mania. Comparing those two modes with eachother is bound to be stupid.

It's understandable you want osu!taiko to be a more unique game, but at this point you are taking the original game's mechanics and throw in a unnecessary and tedious twist for the sake of being different.

Edit: Also agreeing with Nofool about the loved section. Why adding it if you plan on ruining it 3 months later?
XK2238

in which other than the 1 million max score, the currently listed changes are:
>has starting HP like all other game modes
>sliders (which are drumrolls) and spinners have the same behaviors like those in all other game modes -- except CTB in regards of spinners
>drumrolls and big notes, elements whose purposes are to reward bonus points for more skilled players, become mandatory in reaching the max score

...because it just isn't bearable to let this mode be of enough uniqueness ('uniquity'?) compared to the other modes and it has to be some sort of 'standardized' to the osu! environment, to the other game modes. Taiko that ISN'T Taiko? Might as well ditch the "Taiko" in "osu!Taiko" and rename it to something else.

this new system would definitely fuck up Taiko's current foundations (including but not limited to the Loved maps section) if it ever becomes final, but if you guys want to implement it so very badly, I'd say keep it within official tournaments and ONLY official tournaments, NOT anywhere else. Even if it does get implemented, mappool selection in said tournaments must be WAY MORE stricter and careful in order to comply with the changes that this system brings, although that would 'most probably' (if not 'certainly') need a heck lot of miracles to happen.

---------------------

if anything, I think some other things need to be addressed before issuing any kind of new system in the gameplay, such as the note-locking problem and the HP gain/loss rate correlation (i.e. the difference in marathon maps VS in regular-length maps).
Endaris
Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.

Also while I agree with the reasons to make finishers an actual part of the gameplay I'm not sure if a miss is the appropriate punishment - maybe a 100 instead?
Even though I'm too bad at Taiko to follow the actual gameplay on screen I always found Taiko tournaments be fairly exciting to watch and part of the reason for that was how the current score system is suited to keep things close.

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
-Valony-
I'm strongly against Taiko ScoreV2, but why ?

First of all : It's been a while that Drum rolls and Spinners are bonus, and big notes were optionals. This soft system leads to an emergence of a lot of various and uniques playstyle. To this point, I believe there is not a major playstyle proper to taiko, but a lot of various playstyle which all have their strengths and their weakness.

If the bonus aren't referenced as bonus anymore, all thoses playstyle and players will lose the thing that makes them uniques and funny to play, in benefit to a unique mandatory, generic and boring playstyle, that will lead to an overall (big) loss for the game.

Secondary : I'm even more against the new HP system, all of the taiko map since now were designed for the current HP system. I believe that most of the rankeds map can easily switch on the ScoreV2 HP System, but lot of unranked map has been made for fun, challenge, and troll and does not fit the ScoreV2 HP System.

But why am I talking about unranked map since no one cares ?

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Here you can see how many ranked map there aproximatly are for some difficulties.
http://puu.sh/tE0g7/0ef73afbec.png

At high stars, there is few ranked map that I (and i'm sure that a lot of others players too) need to play unranked map to have some fresh/original/unpopular/funny content. For these unranked map, most of them doesn't fit the ScoreV2 because they weren't created for it. Moreover, I think you know what i am talking about, since for at least 2 year there has been some unranked beatmap for the TWC.

Cordially,
Electrano.
frukoyurdakul

Endaris wrote:

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
This is exactly going to happen. I am certain that players' comments about that will be ignored no matter what.
Redon
smoogipooo go away, no one wants these shitty scoring systems ported from standard. Taiko is not standard, mania is not standard, and you're not doing favours to anyone by forcing a scoring system upon these communities that's almost as bad as the old one from standard.
Ankanogradiel
Two things.

1.

smoogipooo wrote:

Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania.
I strongly disagree with this. It would break autoconverts that are already considered broken. I don't think streaming 300+ bpm with both fingers would be an option to anyone. Especially when HP values are calculated the same as osu!mania. I'm reffering to autoconverts such as marisa etc. What would happen about those?

2.

smoogipooo wrote:

Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
Not sure how I feel about this. Because taiko's HP is completely different than the other modes and it kind of makes sense. I don't really see a need to change it, but it's a change I can live with.
5urface
Sorry to be so blunt but v2 is a load of crap.

The current system is working really well and allows newcomers to easily get into it while still rewarding skilled players by allowing them to achieve higher scores. Why change it into something that doesn't really reward the best players much but harshly punishes those that are not as good (yet)?

The miss on finishers is a horrible idea, it breaks so many maps and favors certain play styles over others. The current system rewards hitting them with double scores and if you want to top the leaderboards you kind of need to play them already. But it doesn't kill the accuracy of players who decide to play a little safe and take the hit in score instead.

If you want to change finishers then give them a marginally higher pp if played with both notes, so that hitting all on finisher heavy maps would award around 5% more pp.


The drumroll changes are kind of meh. They are intended as bonus points to achieve the highest possible scores and already allow different high scores even on SS plays. The only thing this change would achieve is again to make it only harder to get into taiko.


I can accept the changes to spinners if I really had to but this would kill some gimmick maps and make short (ninja) spinners pretty annoying.


The HP system is horrid for Taiko. This isn't Mania or CtB (thank god). Do you want to kill everyone that misses one stream on harder maps? Even though they would still easily pass with the current HP system?
Many maps balanced their HP settings to exactly what their creators intended, allowing a certain amount of misses over the whole map on each difficulty. Why break this system and force something in that's a lot worse?


What is the reasoning behind limiting the score you can achieve on a map?
Is score v2 going to apply to converts as well? Because if yes then it's even worse than it already looks.


With these suggested changes it's like you want Taiko to slowly die and fade away. It arguably favors only the very best players (which by definition are limited to a small number) while making it a chore to get into this gamemode, effectively driving away new players and therefore slowly killing the gamemode.

Bottom line: Don't change a running system, Taiko is fine as is and we all love it for what it is. Don't force changes for the sake of change and don't even dare thinking about forcing change just to bring Taiko in line with other gamemodes. If I wanted Mania I'd play Mania.
agu
couldn't have said it better myself
Zac Efron
OK, don't listen to the community that runs your game. It's not like we want this game to thrive too or anything.

Why the fuck was this even considered, the community has been begging for other things to be fixed/changed for years. Instead you break the only thing that works properly in this mode. Why not listen to the community and do what them as a whole want rather than your own changes that make no sense, especially since none of you actually play this mode seriously. How are you supposed to understand? You are going to argue with the community as a whole for breaking our favorite mode? Why?

The community for years has been begging for Converts to not be playable in taiko because of the amount of broken pp that can be gained and the technological advantage people can get from "TL"ing < which only like 20 people in this community can do properly. We have begged for a better pp system that wouldn't break on converts. We've asked for so many things in regards to how to gameplay works and have never criticized the score system.

One thing I don't understand is the lack of attention the community gets. We may not directly, but we keep this game running and by angering and pushing people away you are taking away the most crucial part of this game.

You can complain about the skinning finishers out but that's at the fault if the client for allowing it, not ours for doing it. Also you have taken absolutely no consideration for ddkk/kkdd players. Who physically can not do some of these things that are now required. What about the Taikomania skins?? Those will be unusable too. Let's kill off half of the community because why the fuck not. Seriously, are you retarded? I won't forget to mention how last second this would be unless you are delaying TWC, and even if you are. That's still retarded considering how fucking broken it is now.

We as the Taiko community are begging you, cancel this and work on something we've been asking for, for years. Such as, the pp system, removing converts from existence, etc. Listen to your fucking community, or kill the mode with a giant fucking sword. Up to you. "Community Managers"

This may have broken a few community rules, and by that, i frankly don't care. You're breaking the game and THAT'S WORTH breaking the rules. Not like any staff is going to even consider this post anyways. BECAUSE "FUCK THE COMMUNITY!"

EDIT: How the hell is this only a score change even? Counting spinners/sliders/finishers as missed unless played properly and the new HP is changing the games mechanics. Please stop!

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?


Also, please don't everyone's favorite loved map
xtrem3x
>>> Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania <<<

NO!

Then change the name of the game to osu!Drums instead of Taiko
Ak1o
What about big drumrolls, do they need to be played with one or two presses per tick?

EDIT: Also, dd kk hits or do dk kd hits work as well, if they needed to be double-hit?
Loctav
big drumrolls can be hit like normal drum rolls, but yield more score.
Jason X

Jaye wrote:

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all
Probably just to fit in with the other world cups, it's true that we don't need this.
for world cups ok, but in general?

---------------------------------------------------------
a new scoring system for big notes
miss if you don't hit 30% of a slider in taiko
hp for the sliders in taiko
combo for spinners
miss if you don't finish a spinner
hp for spinners

this kinda sounds like the opposite of what taiko is

in other taiko games (Taiko no tatsujin, taiko jiro and more) is it the same way (ok, the score system is different, but shakers and drum rolls should either not give combo or break the combo)
in this point i probably will lose the half of my fc'd ranks cause i not finished the shakers (wasn't fast enough cause my hands needs rest form the kiai before)

Loctav wrote:

people skin away finisher objects to normal objects
never heared about something like this in the time i'm here

1000000 max score sounds like a bad idea at all

Catgirl wrote:

Invective wrote:

(quote="Loctav")also who cares about unranked maps?(/quote)
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.
better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant
only ranked maps in TWC? i don't know much about TWC cause i don't care about, but i see in LMS:SE2 allready that a lot unranked maps are used.
also there are so many good maps that should be ranked (or loved), but for some reasons
(just for example, don't punish me for this not enough modders, lazy bn's, mappers that know nothing about ranking a map, map owner don't understand english)
they aren't ranked

agu wrote:

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.
if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about
omegaflo
I don't understand why we need a new score system (outside of tournaments I guess), but here goes my 4.20 cents :

Normal notes
[*] Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.Nothing changed here.

Finisher notes
[*] Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.That's ok for me, score is not the important part of the PP calculation, and that's a HUGE cheese on tournaments, bit punitive, but I guess that's the point.
[*] Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.EDIT : Some gameplays will not allow that, also, with new mapping rules (allowing finishers at end of streams) it will get extremely tedious to combobreak to every big note you can't hit (GL hitting every finishers on a xxxxx X xxxxx X xxxxx / X xxx X xxx X xxx X at high BPM. It adds challenge for sure, but it's just a pain to read, and to play)
Same for some players that doesn't seem to record the big notes correctly, even when they hit both their keys


Drum rolls
[*] Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.Nothing changed here.
[*] Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.Nope, That's a huge fuck-up, the accuracy needed on 1/4 on some higher bpm maps with mods is going to break. Every time you locktick your slider, you're done. Ofc, with 25+ ticks sliders, that'll be fine because you can catch-up, but with short ones, you'll not have time to react, and that's not going to work
[*] Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.Again, that's bad, we're going a lot of steps backward
[*] Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.See above points
[*] Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.Why not.

Spinners
[*] A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.Fine, but again, due to the lockticks, some quick spinners can lock up as well, that's 100% avoidable though
[*] A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.Why not.
[*] Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.Why not.

Health
[*] Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.Yeah, no. Again, this has to do with the mapping community, and how things were done until now, GL clearing Galaxy Collapse with such an idea. You guys better fix the actual HP issue (Scaling too high with large amount of notes/Too low with low amount)


While I kinda agree with big notes changes(only score, again, no miss if you don't double hit, so that's fine), everything else is... just bad.

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
You are mapping, and you DARE say that ?

OFC it's optionnal, because we're using drumrolls and spinners 75% of the time to map UNMAPPABLE part of the song (Or would be too hard, a huge drumroll instead of a HUGE 24+ notes stream on a muzu for example)
I understand that it would be nice to not have to ignore these mechanics (and get away with it), but that's what makes them BONUS, you don't hit them ? you don't get the score, you hit them ? you get the bonus point. End of story.
If you want to make them mandatory, you better adapt to every BPM, every star rating, every OD set, every SV set; yeah, good luck on that.

Also forgot, Good luck streaming 1/4 180+ Finishers drumrolls..., i'm not even talking about low star rating maps, kantan and fuutsu are going to be the worst pain to map and plan.
R.I.P beginners (yeah, goodluck spamming 1/4 everywhere because we couldn't map anything but drumrolls/spinners on the music, also, if you just spam or hit 1/2 ? Not working again)

Maybe that would give mapping diversity, but i'm not even sure about that.

I'm not talking about unranked maps, everything has been said already

So yeah, unless that's World Cup / Competition only, that's a huge no-no.

(As always, sorry for my painful-to-read English)
agu

Jason X wrote:

agu wrote:

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.
if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about
??? I'm against these changes. As far as I can see, you seem to be too.
Sayira
I actually think that the ScoreV2 system isn't that bad.
It implements some good features like giving more reward for Finishers.
But hitting them should still remain optional or at least give you the same amount of points as an inaccurate hit if you single tap it.

Endaris wrote:

Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.
I can definitely agree with that.


Besides that the changes don't seem as bad as everyone says..
agu
Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.
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