Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

posted
Total Posts
256
show more
Catgirl

Loctav wrote:

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.
i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.
Savoiyare
That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system

EDIT : ok i thought mandatory big notes and survival hp was a glitch back then so eeeeee please do not do that or don't call this game a TnT simulator anymore

but like i said if it's only a mod for some tournaments then it would be pretty cool, but not as the main score system because of the fact that (almost) all of the maps have be created for the current score system and loooooooot of stuff would be unplayable with this system
animexamera
I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream
Loctav

animexamera wrote:

I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream
I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?

Savoiyare wrote:

That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system
care to elaborate why?

Catgirl wrote:

Loctav wrote:

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.
i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.
but they do use no finisher skins already. this is all speculation. the sheer option to cheese through this game mechanic shouldnt be a thing in the first place. sure some maps are not designed to work with that change, but I think none of these are ranked.
Fuel

Loctav wrote:

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft.
Why should that factor into a scoring system for taiko?

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.
agu
please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.


I'd argue the same for finishers but I don't even want to argue about this.
Catgirl

Invective wrote:

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.
better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant
Nofool

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
Thats literally the point of a BONUS, finishers/sliders/spinners are supposed to be a score bonus, not an unavoidable part of the map lol. Like wth is the point of maximizing a score in a mode with bonus elements........

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.
frukoyurdakul
After discussions made on #taiko channel I have come to write my opinions about this scoreV2 system.

About these finisher hits: That's unneccessary. This forces to play taiko with 4 fingers even there are so many index finger players. This is important because of the finishers after 1/4 or 1/6 streams (which are seen from convert maps) will be unneccesarily hard to hit for 2 finger players. Score change is fair, but having a miss on a single hit is not.

Drum rolls: Not unlogical, but have some mistakes in my opinion. Because this makes sliders harder than streams which can be hit with 100 points. If you miss the first tick on this slider, it will be very hard to hit them right again because the ticks are more difficult to hit than the original notes.

Spinners: Bye bye loved maps.

Health: Not fair. Because if you miss in a stream, (for me anyway, maybe I'm doing it wrong) it's very hard to recover in a stream without a break about 10 or 15ms to hit another note, which causes unconsistency unneccesarily. For example: In a 200 BPM song, if it has +-70ms (which is a 140ms gap, OD 6.5), you will miss every note in a 1/4 stream because the song will have 75 ms gap between these 2 notes (think of it as 1 note and it will be 37.5 ms) and you miss it automatically. Mania does not have it hence it has this HP system. Taiko maps are a note in a flat line and doesn't work as mania as. So Taiko can't have this system in my opinion.
BrokenArrow

Nofool wrote:

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.
The score system shouldn't be balanced around unrankable maps, ever. That's just retarded.
guro

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
You see, drumrolls and spinners can be ignored in the original game aswell, although the changes to those objects are mostly reasonable.
However, the planned change to finisher notes is just a poor decision. Even if you hit the finisher note with one key instead of two, you essentially still hit it. Gaining less score from that is a completely fair and reasonable punishment, punishing that with a miss is taking things a bit too far. As frukoyurdakul said, hitting finisher notes at the end of a 1/4 stream or pattern will be just a pain to hit. Don't even start with justifying it with jacks in mania. Taiko isn't mania. Comparing those two modes with eachother is bound to be stupid.

It's understandable you want osu!taiko to be a more unique game, but at this point you are taking the original game's mechanics and throw in a unnecessary and tedious twist for the sake of being different.

Edit: Also agreeing with Nofool about the loved section. Why adding it if you plan on ruining it 3 months later?
XK2238

in which other than the 1 million max score, the currently listed changes are:
>has starting HP like all other game modes
>sliders (which are drumrolls) and spinners have the same behaviors like those in all other game modes -- except CTB in regards of spinners
>drumrolls and big notes, elements whose purposes are to reward bonus points for more skilled players, become mandatory in reaching the max score

...because it just isn't bearable to let this mode be of enough uniqueness ('uniquity'?) compared to the other modes and it has to be some sort of 'standardized' to the osu! environment, to the other game modes. Taiko that ISN'T Taiko? Might as well ditch the "Taiko" in "osu!Taiko" and rename it to something else.

this new system would definitely fuck up Taiko's current foundations (including but not limited to the Loved maps section) if it ever becomes final, but if you guys want to implement it so very badly, I'd say keep it within official tournaments and ONLY official tournaments, NOT anywhere else. Even if it does get implemented, mappool selection in said tournaments must be WAY MORE stricter and careful in order to comply with the changes that this system brings, although that would 'most probably' (if not 'certainly') need a heck lot of miracles to happen.

---------------------

if anything, I think some other things need to be addressed before issuing any kind of new system in the gameplay, such as the note-locking problem and the HP gain/loss rate correlation (i.e. the difference in marathon maps VS in regular-length maps).
Endaris
Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.

Also while I agree with the reasons to make finishers an actual part of the gameplay I'm not sure if a miss is the appropriate punishment - maybe a 100 instead?
Even though I'm too bad at Taiko to follow the actual gameplay on screen I always found Taiko tournaments be fairly exciting to watch and part of the reason for that was how the current score system is suited to keep things close.

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
-Valony-
I'm strongly against Taiko ScoreV2, but why ?

First of all : It's been a while that Drum rolls and Spinners are bonus, and big notes were optionals. This soft system leads to an emergence of a lot of various and uniques playstyle. To this point, I believe there is not a major playstyle proper to taiko, but a lot of various playstyle which all have their strengths and their weakness.

If the bonus aren't referenced as bonus anymore, all thoses playstyle and players will lose the thing that makes them uniques and funny to play, in benefit to a unique mandatory, generic and boring playstyle, that will lead to an overall (big) loss for the game.

Secondary : I'm even more against the new HP system, all of the taiko map since now were designed for the current HP system. I believe that most of the rankeds map can easily switch on the ScoreV2 HP System, but lot of unranked map has been made for fun, challenge, and troll and does not fit the ScoreV2 HP System.

But why am I talking about unranked map since no one cares ?

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Here you can see how many ranked map there aproximatly are for some difficulties.
http://puu.sh/tE0g7/0ef73afbec.png

At high stars, there is few ranked map that I (and i'm sure that a lot of others players too) need to play unranked map to have some fresh/original/unpopular/funny content. For these unranked map, most of them doesn't fit the ScoreV2 because they weren't created for it. Moreover, I think you know what i am talking about, since for at least 2 year there has been some unranked beatmap for the TWC.

Cordially,
Electrano.
frukoyurdakul

Endaris wrote:

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
This is exactly going to happen. I am certain that players' comments about that will be ignored no matter what.
Redon
smoogipooo go away, no one wants these shitty scoring systems ported from standard. Taiko is not standard, mania is not standard, and you're not doing favours to anyone by forcing a scoring system upon these communities that's almost as bad as the old one from standard.
Ankanogradiel
Two things.

1.

smoogipooo wrote:

Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania.
I strongly disagree with this. It would break autoconverts that are already considered broken. I don't think streaming 300+ bpm with both fingers would be an option to anyone. Especially when HP values are calculated the same as osu!mania. I'm reffering to autoconverts such as marisa etc. What would happen about those?

2.

smoogipooo wrote:

Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
Not sure how I feel about this. Because taiko's HP is completely different than the other modes and it kind of makes sense. I don't really see a need to change it, but it's a change I can live with.
5urface
Sorry to be so blunt but v2 is a load of crap.

The current system is working really well and allows newcomers to easily get into it while still rewarding skilled players by allowing them to achieve higher scores. Why change it into something that doesn't really reward the best players much but harshly punishes those that are not as good (yet)?

The miss on finishers is a horrible idea, it breaks so many maps and favors certain play styles over others. The current system rewards hitting them with double scores and if you want to top the leaderboards you kind of need to play them already. But it doesn't kill the accuracy of players who decide to play a little safe and take the hit in score instead.

If you want to change finishers then give them a marginally higher pp if played with both notes, so that hitting all on finisher heavy maps would award around 5% more pp.


The drumroll changes are kind of meh. They are intended as bonus points to achieve the highest possible scores and already allow different high scores even on SS plays. The only thing this change would achieve is again to make it only harder to get into taiko.


I can accept the changes to spinners if I really had to but this would kill some gimmick maps and make short (ninja) spinners pretty annoying.


The HP system is horrid for Taiko. This isn't Mania or CtB (thank god). Do you want to kill everyone that misses one stream on harder maps? Even though they would still easily pass with the current HP system?
Many maps balanced their HP settings to exactly what their creators intended, allowing a certain amount of misses over the whole map on each difficulty. Why break this system and force something in that's a lot worse?


What is the reasoning behind limiting the score you can achieve on a map?
Is score v2 going to apply to converts as well? Because if yes then it's even worse than it already looks.


With these suggested changes it's like you want Taiko to slowly die and fade away. It arguably favors only the very best players (which by definition are limited to a small number) while making it a chore to get into this gamemode, effectively driving away new players and therefore slowly killing the gamemode.

Bottom line: Don't change a running system, Taiko is fine as is and we all love it for what it is. Don't force changes for the sake of change and don't even dare thinking about forcing change just to bring Taiko in line with other gamemodes. If I wanted Mania I'd play Mania.
agu
couldn't have said it better myself
Zac Efron
OK, don't listen to the community that runs your game. It's not like we want this game to thrive too or anything.

Why the fuck was this even considered, the community has been begging for other things to be fixed/changed for years. Instead you break the only thing that works properly in this mode. Why not listen to the community and do what them as a whole want rather than your own changes that make no sense, especially since none of you actually play this mode seriously. How are you supposed to understand? You are going to argue with the community as a whole for breaking our favorite mode? Why?

The community for years has been begging for Converts to not be playable in taiko because of the amount of broken pp that can be gained and the technological advantage people can get from "TL"ing < which only like 20 people in this community can do properly. We have begged for a better pp system that wouldn't break on converts. We've asked for so many things in regards to how to gameplay works and have never criticized the score system.

One thing I don't understand is the lack of attention the community gets. We may not directly, but we keep this game running and by angering and pushing people away you are taking away the most crucial part of this game.

You can complain about the skinning finishers out but that's at the fault if the client for allowing it, not ours for doing it. Also you have taken absolutely no consideration for ddkk/kkdd players. Who physically can not do some of these things that are now required. What about the Taikomania skins?? Those will be unusable too. Let's kill off half of the community because why the fuck not. Seriously, are you retarded? I won't forget to mention how last second this would be unless you are delaying TWC, and even if you are. That's still retarded considering how fucking broken it is now.

We as the Taiko community are begging you, cancel this and work on something we've been asking for, for years. Such as, the pp system, removing converts from existence, etc. Listen to your fucking community, or kill the mode with a giant fucking sword. Up to you. "Community Managers"

This may have broken a few community rules, and by that, i frankly don't care. You're breaking the game and THAT'S WORTH breaking the rules. Not like any staff is going to even consider this post anyways. BECAUSE "FUCK THE COMMUNITY!"

EDIT: How the hell is this only a score change even? Counting spinners/sliders/finishers as missed unless played properly and the new HP is changing the games mechanics. Please stop!

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?


Also, please don't everyone's favorite loved map
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply