Bakari wrote:

You mean to tell me somebody actually cares about editor stuff?

My crippling depression tells me yes

We don't need any more diffs for bad players because there are enough already. Thousands. And if we stopped making it a requirement, people would still map them because they are easy to map and mappers naturally map what the community plays. Easy diffs don't fit in with a lot of songs and have to be extremely undermapped, and make mapping and ranking a lot more tedious. So does this idea of 'difficulty spread' in which maps have to cater to every imaginable skill level for unknown reasons. Rather than having a philosophy of "every player deserves to play every song regardless of skill level"' (which is undermined by the fact that when you go over 5 minutes you don't need to do this anymore), having a skill barrier for certain songs might actually encourage people to get better. The game is not sustained by casual players, and making everything easy for casual players is not how you encourage them to play more.

haha i love new mappers they think they asre good lol. they like " omg my map thsio tthe FUCKING best FUCK e shiowaoifAWHOEPawehiop awehiopfhaweiopphioawefhiopawehopiawefhiopawefhioawefhioawefwe"

MAPPING DRAMA NATION NOW ALMOST AT 6K VIEWS

B1rd wrote:

We don't need any more diffs for bad players because there are enough already. Thousands. And if we stopped making it a requirement, people would still map them because they are easy to map and mappers naturally map what the community plays. Easy diffs don't fit in with a lot of songs and have to be extremely undermapped, and make mapping and ranking a lot more tedious. So does this idea of 'difficulty spread' in which maps have to cater to every imaginable skill level for unknown reasons. Rather than having a philosophy of "every player deserves to play every song regardless of skill level"' (which is undermined by the fact that when you go over 5 minutes you don't need to do this anymore), having a skill barrier for certain songs might actually encourage people to get better. The game is not sustained by casual players, and making everything easy for casual players is not how you encourage them to play more.

yeah man let me make my fuckign 6* non-marathon diffs and rank them in peace god fuck


the problems tands when that becomes the new norm and then you're left with the only "easy" maps being the ones made on purpose 5-10% of the time, tops, and if you're a new player you have like 5-10% of the choice as you would now


hell maybe some hybrid system of "after 3 minutes of drain time, an Easy/Normal is no longer needed, after 4 minutes, a Normal/Hard is no longer needed" would work but fuck that


nothing will change around here anyway



prove me wrong ephemeral pls i'd love to be proven wrong, as it is fuck mapping, insane amounts of effort for literally next to no benefit other than getting potential fanboi circlejerking

I see lazy people are still crying over not wanting to cater to a wider audience with their maps. People never change.

That's not really a problem. There will always be maps for beginners to play, and these maps will continue to be mapped. We have to take into account how easy easy and normals actually are. It would take what, a couple of days for someone who is playing seriously to surpass them and move on to hards? I remember that I basically played easy and normals on Charles's beatmap Liquid, and since then I have pretty much never played easies or normals again. I can confidently say that 90%+ of plays on easies are done by SS farmers and the like, rather than people whose skill level is appropriately matched to those difficulties. So what is the necessity? Is it essential to have every single song available for beginners of a week or two to play? I don't think so.

I'm not saying that there should be a drop in quality in ranked beatmaps. But I don't think enforcing the arbitrary standards of the beatmap spreads make for quality mapsets. I.e, you map is 2 seconds too short, therefore you need to make 2 more difficulties. Or 'omg, your mapset has a gap of 0.2* too high, into the graveyard your mapset goes'. I view maps as something like works of art, and you don't get great works of art by excessive standardisation or forcing an artist to churn out a lot of uninspired work. If a mapper creates an amazing map at a certain star rating, is it a good thing to make him shoehorn in a bunch more difficulties just to get the one map he wants ranked? You can claim that these sort of regulations create higher quality, but the quality you're talking about is more akin to the quality of a factory product, rather than of great and unique creations.

So what I would suggest is have more of a loose fitting set of guidelines regarding difficulty spreads. Because blanket rules like this are rarely a good idea, maps can always be judged on a case-by-case basis. For example, a tv size anime map wouldn't be able to get away without a full spread. But something like the Big Black for example, really doesn't need one.

Garven wrote:

I see lazy people are still crying over not wanting to cater to a wider audience with their maps. People never change.

Cater to a wider audience, also known as dumb down. It's good that certain niches can be filled by certain maps, not everything has to be for everyone.

Well making Easies and Normals isn't even that hard. The only real hard part is rhythm since there's not really that much freedom elsewhere. If you can make a 6 star map you should probably be able to spend an hour making the Easy and Normal too.

I do agree that some songs really suck to make E/N's for because of the severe undermapping required, but I don't really know the solution to that or if there even really has to be one.

Hobbes2 wrote:

Well making Easies and Normals isn't even that hard. The only real hard part is rhythm since there's not really that much freedom elsewhere. If you can make a 6 star map you should probably be able to spend an hour making the Easy and Normal too.

I do agree that some songs really suck to make E/N's for because of the severe undermapping required, but I don't really know the solution to that or if there even really has to be one.

there doesn't have to be a solution. Undermapping is good for easy maps, actually.

The sort of songs that warrant a 6* difficulty often have more complex rhythms and when you map those in a normal difficulty, new players probably couldn't keep up with that. More complicated rhythms shouldn't be used too much in very easy maps, they should be introduced later after the lew player mastered the very basics of the game. Playing easy and normal difficulties is basically like playing and extended tutorial of the game anyway, until you move on to hard maps.



Mapping drama is always hilarious to see. Looking at some of Shiirn's beatmap-threads, people were fighting over things that were basically a matter of taste. Thinking back, at some point it was like you saw one side scream ''i like red!!'' and the other side screaming ''i like blue!!!'', at the top of their lungs. Good times. Please, more of that!!

Easies and normals are all the same pretty much, players can get the same experience by playing any of them. Play one and you've played them all. And just like I wouldn't like a 6* difficulty being forced on Dango Daikazoku, I don't think it's necessary to force a map that doesn't fit the song at all on more intense songs. It's not the biggest issue about mapping, but still no reason to force people to make easies on every map even if it doesn't fit.

Railey2 wrote:

The sort of songs that warrant a 6* difficulty often have more complex rhythms and when you map those in a normal difficulty, new players probably couldn't keep up with that. More complicated rhythms shouldn't be used too much in very easy maps, they should be introduced later after the new player mastered the very basics of the game. Playing easy and normal difficulties is basically like playing and extended tutorial of the game anyway, until you move on to hard maps

not everyone plays at the same pace, hence why i like making easy difficulties easier than 1.3* some people aren't going to get good within 9 hours, or 8 days, or 10 weeks, others just have the skill/experience almost right away

there doesn't have to be a solution. Undermapping is good for easy maps, actually.

Yeah, I know, my point was the same as yours; some songs have rhythms that are pretty challlenging to make Easies and Normals out of, and requiring maps to have those diffs can be frustrating. But my personal opinion is that mappers are just gonna have to suck it up and make em.

new maps suck

Railey2 wrote:

The sort of songs that warrant a 6* difficulty often have more complex rhythms and when you map those in a normal difficulty, new players probably couldn't keep up with that. More complicated rhythms shouldn't be used too much in very easy maps, they should be introduced later after the lew player mastered the very basics of the game. Playing easy and normal difficulties is basically like playing and extended tutorial of the game anyway, until you move on to hard maps!

The main reason I am against under mapping is it breaks me to see something like this severely under mapped to the point it barely creates that feel the music give off. Energy! Power! Excitement! Being ET as fuck! All that lost when you have slow sliders at AR 5. Create E/N difficulties for reasonable songs like vocals or calming piano songs, not high BPM *core.

Hobbes2 wrote:

But my personal opinion is that mappers are just gonna have to suck it up and make em.

<insert more bashing at the ranking criteria>

B1rd wrote:

Easies and normals are all the same pretty much... Play one and you've played them all

*cough* monstrata*cough*

B1rd wrote:

We don't need any more diffs for bad players because there are enough already. Thousands. And if we stopped making it a requirement, people would still map them because they are easy to map and mappers naturally map what the community plays. Easy diffs don't fit in with a lot of songs and have to be extremely undermapped, and make mapping and ranking a lot more tedious. So does this idea of 'difficulty spread' in which maps have to cater to every imaginable skill level for unknown reasons. Rather than having a philosophy of "every player deserves to play every song regardless of skill level"' (which is undermined by the fact that when you go over 5 minutes you don't need to do this anymore), having a skill barrier for certain songs might actually encourage people to get better. The game is not sustained by casual players, and making everything easy for casual players is not how you encourage them to play more.

Quality-wise, this is what I expect to read from Off-Topic. Thanks for the good laugh.

why do you have an account here

Stefan wrote:

Quality-wise, this is what I expect to read from Off-Topic. Thanks for the good laugh.

He is somewhat right though. I remember when Talent Shredder came out and one of my goal was passing it, giving me motivation to play.

Only popular stuff need potato difficulties, since the majority of potatoes will only play popular potato songs. For someone who isn't a potato, even hards are manageable if not instantly, but within a few days, but those kinds of players do not care much about potato stuff anyway and potatoes do not really care much about non-potato stuff, such as non-popular, non-potato songs. Potatoes want One Potato Man and Potato Art Online songs, maybe some Potato City and Fainted Potato, so that Normiepotatoes won't complain about all the 2d underage girls we have here.

I understand nothing what you're trying to explain me but potatoes.

he's low-key calling you an incapable potato of a moderator

Ah, thanks for translating.

winber1 wrote:

he's low-key calling you an incapable potato of a moderator

That is wrong. Stefan is a cool mod, don't bully! how many times have you silenced me though?

On the other hand, I clearly expressed the needs of >very< casual players, that being popular songs and how they do not care much about anything else. For that reason, not all maps need bottom tier difficulties, especially not two of them, as even literal potatoes can play easy difficulties. With these points, I tried to defend B1rd's post. Is everything clear now? I hope I won't be accused of calling Ephemeral a poopy birdie butt this time around. That would be awkward and just not true.

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

Oh wait that's what mapping drama is supposed to be my bad

N0thingSpecial wrote:

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

it's a real honor to meet you sherlock, i loved ur books

N0thingSpecial wrote:

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

Oh wait that's what mapping drama is supposed to be my bad

No.

I just try and convey my point about things I have thought for years.

Ephemeral wrote:

N0thingSpecial wrote:

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

it's a real honor to meet you sherlock, i loved ur books

Dafuq u just say u lil bitch, just because you have your fancy yellow name u think u can talk shit to me, fite me and my katana collection

:^)-type is no match for my impeccable candour

B1rd wrote:

Garven wrote:

I see lazy people are still crying over not wanting to cater to a wider audience with their maps. People never change.

Cater to a wider audience, also known as dumb down. It's good that certain niches can be filled by certain maps, not everything has to be for everyone.

Adding easier difficulties isn't dumbing down a mapset. Also remember this is a game, so the ranked section isn't really made for art projects and the ranking criteria was designed around that.

So if you want your mapset to join the ranked group, meet the established criteria. If you want to show off your art project, it's fine to leave it in the other map sections. People can still download and experience it.

Garven wrote:

If you want to show off your art project

"art project" is so demeaning compared to "work of art". It's almost offensive

Art is just an analogy. What I'm really talking about is maps that are good for a variety of reasons, not just how 'artistic' they are. What you are doing is making a distinguishment between good mapsets, and mapsets that are 'acceptable' to be ranked. Like I was saying, you seem to prefer mapsets that seem to come off of a factory line. It's not that mappers are being 'lazy', it's the simple fact that resources aren't infinite, and heaping a bunch of unnecessary work that mappers have to do to get their mapset ranked will inevitably reduce the amount of truly good mapsets.

So in the end, you are dumbing down the game by forcing the redistribution of time and effort onto making easy difficulties. You have yet to justify why every single mapset needs to have low difficulties. And I have already at length explained why this is unnecessary. And in my mind, tacking on easy difficulties reduces the appeal of naturally hard songs and mapsets. Yes this is a game, but what games allow you to fight super easy versions of the final boss at stage one? You can play games on easy mode or hard mode, and in osu! there are mods that emulate this by increasing or decreasing difficulty. In games there are easy stages and hard stages, and is osu! there are easy and slow songs, and fast intense songs. Slow songs don't need to be hard, and hard songs don't need to be easy.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be easy maps, or that mappers should be able to get away with ranking a mapset with one or two 6* diffs in a tv-size anime map. I'm saying that hard mapsets should be able to stay hard, and easy ones can stay easy. We don't need to tack on undermapped maps that don't follow the music and aren't very good. Instead, mapsets should be ranked based on their own quality, as judged by humans, rather than following a rigid and uncompromising set of rules that are more detrimental than not.

Also, concerning unranked maps: if we're being real, one of the biggest driving forces for mappers to map is to have their maps get attention and be played. For the most part, they don't get this in the unranked section. It'd be like an artist having to keep their pictures in a dark basement instead of being previewed at an art gallery. And don't get on to me about the loved section, the loved section is more of challenge maps, gimmicky maps etc., rather than maps that deserve to be ranked.

B1rd wrote:

Art is just an analogy. What I'm really talking about is maps that are good for a variety of reasons, not just how 'artistic' they are. What you are doing is making a distinguishment between good mapsets, and mapsets that are 'acceptable' to be ranked. Like I was saying, You seem to prefer mapsets that seem to come off of a factory line. It's not that mappers are being 'lazy', it's the simple fact that resources aren't infinite, and heaping a bunch of unnecessary work that mappers have to do to get their mapset ranked will inevitably reduce the amount of truly good mapsets.

So in the end, you are dumbing down the game by forcing the redistribution of time and effort onto making easy difficulties. You have yet to justify why every single mapset Needs to have low difficulties. And I have already at length explained why this is unnecessary. And in my mind, tacking on easy difficulties reduces the appeal of naturally hard songs and mapsets. Yes this is a game, but what games allow you to fight super easy versions of the final boss at stage one? You can play games on easy mode or hard mode, and in osu! there are mods that emulate this by increasing or decreasing difficulty. In games there are easy stages and hard stages, and is osu! there are easy and slow songs, and fast intense songs. Slow songs don't need to be hard, and hard songs don't need to be easy.

So, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be easy maps, or that mappers should be able to get away with ranking a mapset with one or two 6* diffs in a tv-size anime map. I'm saying that hard mapsets should be ableTo stay hard, and easy ones can stay easy. We don't need to tack on undermapped maps that don't follow the music and aren't very good. Instead, mapsets should be ranked based on their own quality, as judged by humans, rather than following a rigid and uncompromising set of rules that do more harm than good.

Also, Concerning unranked maps: if we're being real, one of the biggest driving forces for mappers to map is to have their maps get attention and be played. For tHe most part, they don't get this in the unranked section. It'd be like an artIst having to keep their pictures in a dark basement instead of being previewed at an art gaLLery. And don't get on to me about the loved section, the loved section is more of challenge maps, gimmicky maps etc., rather than maps that deserve to be ranked.

This is OT, not Parliament,Flap your wings and just cchhhiiilllll

If you don't have anything of value to say, don't say anything at all. I don't need you commenting every time I say something serious.

B1rd wrote:

If you don't have anything of value to say, don't say anything at all. I don't need you commenting every time I say something serious.

Ahh ok

B1rd wrote:

Yes this is a game, but what games allow you to fight super easy versions of the final boss at stage one?

Virtually every single rhythm game ever.



The full spread emulates other rhythm games to appeal to people coming in from other games.

EDIT: Here's the Challenge chart for comparison.

B1rd if every mapper has your mindset I think we won't have as many great mapsets ranked. The mapper's intention is give the song exposure and give the community their interpretation of a song in the form of circles and sliders, presumably we would want to give our best for rank, so why only map one difficulty that would only fit a certain people at a certain skill level? Why can't we just do it for the song? Why can't we just do it for the community? Like I don't know if you've experienced this, but when I started playing osu! I tried to find an easier map to a song that has only one difficulty, and there was non cause of the marathon thing, and no one bothered to map a hard diff for it, so I had to forget about this one song which I really like, improve as a player then enjoy the song and the map for what it is later. the process itself was satisfying but why can't the process be me finding out this 5 minutes long song has a full spread, and as I improve I get to enjoy and more accurate interpretation of the song?

not trying to justify the current ranking criteria for mapping spread (tagent but seriously song length for ranking as marathon maps should vary with BPM as higher bpm has more objects it's just common sense), but from a perspective of a mapper that actually gives a shit about the community this spread thing wouldn't be an actual problem. I personally think of it like this "I like this song very much and I think the community should enjoy this, I will map this to cater to as much people as possible while staying true to the song"

B1rd wrote:

For the most part, they don't get this in the unranked section.

??

Good maps do get attention, see the number of favorites or being in the Loved section
Bad maps do not get attention and stays unknown.


I am unsure where did you pull that off.

Garven wrote:

If you want to show off your art project, it's fine to leave it in the other map sections. People can still download and experience it.

So what you're saying is to leave your art projects in another map, like so p/3575250 xD.

But yeah, find the target niche for your art project and just advertise the map to them. They're probably the ones who will give you the praise you want (In short, I bother Garven about my art projects). Ranking rarely gives you much more than a public scoreboard, and an easier way to download your map.

are you really creating mapping drama in the thread that's supposed to list out mapping dramas

hello i think you're missing the point

B1rd wrote:

If you don't have anything of value to say, don't say anything at all.

If only you practiced what you preach

Okorin wrote:

are you really creating mapping drama in the thread that's supposed to list out mapping dramas

hello i think you're missing the point

No,no this is perfect. It's what OT is truly about

abraker wrote:

Okorin wrote:

are you really creating mapping drama in the thread that's supposed to list out mapping dramas

hello i think you're missing the point

No,no this is perfect. It's what OT is truly about

it's so perfect i even stump people

wait..