forum

Plini - Paper Moon

posted
Total Posts
70
show more
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

Metronome wrote:

from r/osumapping discord

The End of Everything
00:27:215 (2,3,1) - why not triangle this? it might look a bit neater needs to be larger spacing on 1 since it is all kinds of more emphasized
00:47:670 (1,2,1,2) - different rhythms, same spacing not different rhythm tho? unless you mean to the two sliders before which should be different enough spacingwise
00:48:625 (2,3) - i see the pattern you're making with these, but it still feels messy, at least looking at it in the editor doesn't really look messy in play imo and it's the cleanest way of drawing parallels to the earlier triangle patterns with the kickslider triangles
01:07:579 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - i don't really understand the spacing of this pattern, it feels like the same kind of rhythm as 01:03:761 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - , feels like it would be especially confusing this is built on the player expecting it to be the same rhythm as previous patterns to make the spacing change readable while heavily emphasizing the background instruments dropping out and then coming in again
01:24:078 (4,5) - 1/8 gap???? slider leniency???? this really isn't harder to play than other 1/4 snap jumps in the map
02:15:078 (2,1) - unsure about this flow break consistent with the other two occurences of the musical pattern it maps
02:18:488 (1) - this 1/8 jump is huge, this is like 11x spacing slider leniency again, did reduce it just a bit though also it's 1/4 snap
02:18:556 (1) - i think some big sliderart would suit this better i want to but i can't the slider

i could see a lot of the creative choices later on in the map, like the expanding stream spacing. i can't really complain about the latter half of the song, it feels like a masterpiece. good luck with this, i really like it! awesome map! thanks man
JierYagtama
aight
Paper Moon
00:54:488 (1) - this slider here kinda ends with a clickable of the guitar ur mapping in 00:54:761 (2,3,4,5) - you can just ctrl g the rhythm with 3 and 1
01:06:488 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - mmm tbh the hitsounds here kiinnnddaa sounds early for me liikkee somewhat 130ms
01:20:943 (1) - mayybee silence the sliderend here?
04:08:727 (4) - kinda feels better if you move this to the white tick
04:23:852 (4) - ^
06:41:036 (4,5,6,7,1) - why not put some spacing emphasis like what you did over in these streams? 06:38:097 (1,2,3,4) - 06:33:689 (1,2,3,4) - either of those two works fine if u goin this route
07:59:608 (1) - hmmm why not end this moon slider to le big white tick?
Honestly wew this is one of the maps I really really like so far. Yea this a masterpiece boi sorry If I didnt much since yeaaaa I think most parts of the map is fine xd
May God bless u boi
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

JeirYagtama wrote:

aight
Paper Moon
00:54:488 (1) - this slider here kinda ends with a clickable of the guitar ur mapping in 00:54:761 (2,3,4,5) - you can just ctrl g the rhythm with 3 and 1 how did nobody notice that before that rhythm made no sense lo
01:06:488 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - mmm tbh the hitsounds here kiinnnddaa sounds early for me liikkee somewhat 130ms don't think so, might be the drums and guitar not being perfectly in sync
01:20:943 (1) - mayybee silence the sliderend here? there's some guitar noise which fits it quite nicely but i'll lowerthe volume a bit
04:08:727 (4) - kinda feels better if you move this to the white tick
04:23:852 (4) - ^ mapping to bass here and this is what it's playing
06:41:036 (4,5,6,7,1) - why not put some spacing emphasis like what you did over in these streams? 06:38:097 (1,2,3,4) - 06:33:689 (1,2,3,4) - either of those two works fine if u goin this route nothing comparable with the guitar pitches i'm mapping the accel streams to
07:59:608 (1) - hmmm why not end this moon slider to le big white tick? end is on the last cymbal sound since measures are kinda a meme at this point in the song
Honestly wew this is one of the maps I really really like so far. Yea this a masterpiece boi sorry If I didnt much since yeaaaa I think most parts of the map is fine xd
May God bless u boi thanks mah boi
silento
10 million years late
How do I stop being bad at 120 bpm streams so I can understand the map better? I'll never know.

00:04:715 (2,1) - I feel like you can angle the sliderends better into the note so it doesn't have you curve your cursor as much while playing, this particular one is me nitpicking but parts like 00:09:077 (2,1) - could benefit from a little extra adjustment so the cursor movement doesn't go right back onto 00:08:668 (1) - sliderhead for example
00:06:896 (1,2,3) - stacking like this (https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8835431) would make this a little cleaner but feel free to deny
00:09:077 (2,1) - also these sliders would benefit from (2,3) ncing because you have a 1/4 gap on the sliderend which isn't obvious to sightreads (doesn't help you're changing bpm here as well)
00:19:579 (2,2,2) - I feel these could be placed better to compliment the structure that you previously made because you can use the triangles to do this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8835490 and then appropriately distance snap 00:19:579 (2,2) - in between the center of the hexagon and the green 3
00:23:397 (2) - I personally don't like the movement going there and would rather put the note more left (but not too much) like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8835513
00:38:125 (1) - I really feel you should've continued to express this line up till this blue tick 00:39:352 - and then move into 00:39:488 - because the guitar picks back up here with the rhythm you already have and it feels disconnected as is since you go from slider expressing a guitar sound, stopping for 2 drums, then going back for the guitar sound that matches up with the drum rhythm. I don't know it feels disconnected on this part
00:58:716 (3,1,1,1,1) - I have an nc suggestion for that part: 00:58:716 (3,4,1,2,1,2) - because you're playing with short beat gaps here, similar to what i said about 00:09:077 (2,1) -
01:29:260 (2,1) - spoke above a few times about it, not going to repeat myself if it keeps occurring from this point.
01:37:715 (2) - I really don't think you need this note because you're expressing the keyboard sound here and it has major emphasis on 01:37:169 (1,1,2) -
01:52:578 (2) - another "move this left" gripe feel free to ignore (alternatively you could angle the sliderend of 01:52:306 (1) - but that is completely up to you)
03:53:852 - you should map this break considering the really nicely mapped section you have before it but that is just my opinion

And okay from there its super solidly mapped and the complaints I do have tend to repeat themselves a bit (obviously in the end where the song calls back to the beginning) but well done, super nice work on it.
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

TheArchist wrote:

10 million years late
How do I stop being bad at 120 bpm streams so I can understand the map better? I'll never know. play more

00:04:715 (2,1) - I feel like you can angle the sliderends better into the note so it doesn't have you curve your cursor as much while playing, this particular one is me nitpicking but parts like 00:09:077 (2,1) - could benefit from a little extra adjustment so the cursor movement doesn't go right back onto 00:08:668 (1) - sliderhead for example don't really get what you're trying to say here tbh, but due to how it's structured changing anything about these sliderends in relation to the surrounding objects would require rather major remaps - if you want a change you'll have to be clearer about what you mean
00:06:896 (1,2,3) - stacking like this (https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8835431) would make this a little cleaner but feel free to deny more consistent with later patterns, changed. also slightly increased sv of the slider to make the tail align ot the hexgrid
00:09:077 (2,1) - also these sliders would benefit from (2,3) ncing because you have a 1/4 gap on the sliderend which isn't obvious to sightreads (doesn't help you're changing bpm here as well) i use colorhax to distinguish these which works better than your suggestion (which was what i had before adding the additional combo color for these)
00:19:579 (2,2,2) - I feel these could be placed better to compliment the structure that you previously made because you can use the triangles to do this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8835490 and then appropriately distance snap 00:19:579 (2,2) - in between the center of the hexagon and the green 3 i actually want this to break out of the hexgrid structure because it kinda breaks out of the pattern of previous similar patterns
00:23:397 (2) - I personally don't like the movement going there and would rather put the note more left (but not too much) like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8835513 the angle here is chosen to be consistent with the angles of other similar patterns, to shallow an angle makes it look like a failed attempt at being straight in line
00:38:125 (1) - I really feel you should've continued to express this line up till this blue tick 00:39:352 - and then move into 00:39:488 - because the guitar picks back up here with the rhythm you already have and it feels disconnected as is since you go from slider expressing a guitar sound, stopping for 2 drums, then going back for the guitar sound that matches up with the drum rhythm. I don't know it feels disconnected on this part that would result in an excessively long slider that doesn't at all represent that there's still a lot going on in the music while the lead guitar is holding
00:58:716 (3,1,1,1,1) - I have an nc suggestion for that part: 00:58:716 (3,4,1,2,1,2) - because you're playing with short beat gaps here, similar to what i said about 00:09:077 (2,1) -
01:29:260 (2,1) - spoke above a few times about it, not going to repeat myself if it keeps occurring from this point. colorhax as above
01:37:715 (2) - I really don't think you need this note because you're expressing the keyboard sound here and it has major emphasis on 01:37:169 (1,1,2) - it's a a bass not a keyboard and i find this works well to transition into following mostly drums for a while
01:52:578 (2) - another "move this left" gripe feel free to ignore (alternatively you could angle the sliderend of 01:52:306 (1) - but that is completely up to you) moved a bit closer but about the same angle
03:53:852 - you should map this break considering the really nicely mapped section you have before it but that is just my opinion reasons for not mapping outlined in previous mod responses

And okay from there its super solidly mapped and the complaints I do have tend to repeat themselves a bit (obviously in the end where the song calls back to the beginning) but well done, super nice work on it.
thanks as always
squirrelpascals
do you want me to mod this
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

squirrelpascals wrote:

do you want me to mod this
well you already did but if you feel like giving it a proper bn mod i'm not gonna say no
squirrelpascals
with that being said, no kd

end me
timing

• 01:16:307 - idk if this matters (no map here) but the timing sounds late with the drums, fix this just in case

• 03:39:216 - these next two timing points are unnecessary and just screws with downbeats, delete them until 03:41:852 -

general

• unsnapped stuff in ai mod

everything else

• 00:07:714 - why x.66 sv here? doesnt make sense to randomly decrease sv here imo

• 00:27:351 (3) - connect this circle with 00:27:079 (1,2) - ? I don't hear the cymbal you mapped these jumps 00:26:942 (3,1) - to, and it owuld create more structure between 00:26:397 (2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) -

• 00:35:125 (5) - nc here, to follow the pattern with 00:26:125 (1) - 00:32:125 (1) - sry for ruinning colorhax

• 01:00:079 - i would suggest putting a note or sliderend or something here, you have a lot of instruments going on and have a guitar note here, so more rhythm density here would feel more natural

• 01:23:532 (6) - same as 00:27:351 (3) -

• 01:29:942 (1,1) - space these closer? this would better indicate 1/8 spacing like at 00:46:307 (1,2) -

• 04:08:852 - You skip a pretty obvious snare note here for some reason, put some here because this is noticable. same at 04:23:852 -

• 04:27:852 - Why dont you do anything about this snare roll here? This is pretty unique in this section of the song so I'd recommend doing something to recognize it

• 04:41:852 (3) - 04:33:852 (6) - 04:56:852 (4) - use nc here? previously you start these 3/4 patterns using the nc like 04:12:852 (1,1,1) -

• 04:44:352 (5,6,1) - move 6 up and left to make this pattern feel more fluent coming from 4, like this

• 04:48:852 (4,1,2,3,4) - I get that you're intentionally undermapping here, but since you're doing it to drums can you do something here to recognize these rides? they're introduced here and offer a new more interesting rhythm that feels strange to ignore

• 06:35:158 (1,2,3,4,1) - this stream aesthetic doesn't make sense to me, its jagged and messy compared to your other more nicely curved ones like 06:33:689 (1,2,3,4) - etc.

• 08:12:366 - random %80 volume here? this sounded better with the slider ticks :p also maybe make that sliderend quieter

call me
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

squirrelpascals wrote:

with that being said, no kd even though you only got 1 for one of the better mods on the map, quality system

end me
timing

• 01:16:307 - idk if this matters (no map here) but the timing sounds late with the drums, fix this just in case seems fine to me and hasn't been noted before so i think it should be fine

• 03:39:216 - these next two timing points are unnecessary and just screws with downbeats, delete them until 03:41:852 - these are necessary for 03:39:216 (3,4,1,2) - to be correctly timed (which was still slightly off but should be good now)

general

• unsnapped stuff in ai mod fixed, leftover from timing fixes

everything else

• 00:07:714 - why x.66 sv here? doesnt make sense to randomly decrease sv here imo 1. the guitar suddenly switches from the high lead to the low note and 2. unlike all the other low notes in this section it's not a chord but just a single note

• 00:27:351 (3) - connect this circle with 00:27:079 (1,2) - ? I don't hear the cymbal you mapped these jumps 00:26:942 (3,1) - to, and it owuld create more structure between 00:26:397 (2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - mapped to the bass drum which is present there, plus it creates a nicer parallel to 00:32:397 (2,3,1,2,3,1,2) - (see also dsco mod)

• 00:35:125 (5) - nc here, to follow the pattern with 00:26:125 (1) - 00:32:125 (1) - sry for ruinning colorhax actually works out nicely since it eliminates the change from dark to light for phrase starts later on well done finding one of the 3 or 4 longest sections without an opportunity to reset combo colors btw

• 01:00:079 - i would suggest putting a note or sliderend or something here, you have a lot of instruments going on and have a guitar note here, so more rhythm density here would feel more natural sure

• 01:23:532 (6) - same as 00:27:351 (3) - same reply

• 01:29:942 (1,1) - space these closer? this would better indicate 1/8 spacing like at 00:46:307 (1,2) - sure

• 04:08:852 - You skip a pretty obvious snare note here for some reason, put some here because this is noticable. same at 04:23:852 - added kicksliders because i want to keep the emphasis on the bass here

• 04:27:852 - Why dont you do anything about this snare roll here? This is pretty unique in this section of the song so I'd recommend doing something to recognize it did something with the entire drum fill, hope the linear dotted pattern is still recognizeble in the center of it

• 04:41:852 (3) - 04:33:852 (6) - 04:56:852 (4) - use nc here? previously you start these 3/4 patterns using the nc like 04:12:852 (1,1,1) - o boi more nc fixes °˖✧◝(⁰▿⁰)◜✧˖°

• 04:44:352 (5,6,1) - move 6 up and left to make this pattern feel more fluent coming from 4, like this sure

• 04:48:852 (4,1,2,3,4) - I get that you're intentionally undermapping here, but since you're doing it to drums can you do something here to recognize these rides? they're introduced here and offer a new more interesting rhythm that feels strange to ignore mapping those rides would completely elimiate the undermapping though thus changing the feel away from i want for this section, therefore i'm focusing on the kick/snare/fills to leave the empty space i feel this section needs

• 06:35:158 (1,2,3,4,1) - this stream aesthetic doesn't make sense to me, its jagged and messy compared to your other more nicely curved ones like 06:33:689 (1,2,3,4) - etc. if you pay close attention the pattern of the guitar changes to be not monotonously rising or falling, ie if you number by pitch instead of the other instances being 1234 or 4321 this is something like 1243; combined with this being the hlafway point of this particular section i think it works out well for emphasis (see also deramok mod)

• 08:12:366 - random %80 volume here? this sounded better with the slider ticks :p unfortunately i can't make osu place a slider tick there so i have to work around it somehow if i want to hitsound that cymbal; i did try to make it a bit more hitlike by making the high volume shorter and decaying faster which sounds ok i think also maybe make that sliderend quieter lowered ot 45%

call me maybe
squirrelpascals
traces is next
Shovan
+1 for traces as the next one :^)
gj on bubble zhu
BrianTheDrummer
Discovered this map some time ago and just wanted to say it's absolutely amazing! I've listened to this song many times and besides the mapping itself being really good it supports the song really well. The song is quite complex with small details/accents and I was afraid for a map to ignore these and I'm glad you didn't. This song/artist is amazing and it's good to finally see a proper map being made for it. Keep up the work and hopefully you can get it ranked!
Kagetsu
hi

i have to pop this due to timing issues:

  1. 110 bpm feels wrong as it ignores a lot of downbeats, (00:05:124 - 00:11:664 - 00:14:663 - , just to point some few examples)
  2. the timing signatures seem to be off as well (it's kind of obvious since the bpm is wrong) in any case, most of your bpm resets are wrong or don't make sense.
i'm not interested in nominating this though i'm gonna leave a tiny fragment of the song timed for you (which should be more accurate) so that you're aware of what direction you should take when timing this. you should aim to set the snares and kicks on the white ticks and changing the time signatures to fit the downbeats.

as i've already said, i'm not interested in the map though you must fix the timing before continuing with the ranking process.
gl

timing
[TimingPoints]
1305,272.727272727273,5,1,1,70,1,0
2668,272.727272727273,6,1,1,70,1,0
4304,272.727272727273,5,1,1,70,1,0
5667,272.727272727273,3,1,1,70,1,0
6485,272.727272727273,5,1,1,70,1,0
7575,272.727272727273,4,1,1,70,1,0
8665,272.727272727273,6,1,1,70,1,0
10301,272.727272727273,5,1,1,70,1,0
11664,272.727272727273,6,1,1,70,1,0
13300,272.727272727273,5,1,1,70,1,0
14663,272.727272727273,6,1,1,70,1,0
16299,272.727272727273,5,1,1,70,1,0
17662,272.727272727273,3,1,1,70,1,0
18480,272.727272727273,8,1,1,70,1,0
20662,272.727272727273,6,1,1,70,1,0
479608,689.655172413793,4,2,1,90,1,0
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

Kagetsu wrote:

hi

i have to pop this due to timing issues:

  1. 110 bpm feels wrong as it ignores a lot of downbeats, (00:05:124 - how is that a downbeat in any case 00:11:664 - 00:14:663 - , just to point some few examples)
  2. the timing signatures seem to be off as well (it's kind of obvious since the bpm is wrong) in any case, most of your bpm resets are wrong or don't make sense.
110bpm 11/8 is correct according to the official tabs (http://www.sheethappenspublishing.com/p ... guitarbook) as well as anyone with a reasonable understanding of complex time signatures. (i've discussed it with dsco too) if you want excerpts of the tabs feel free to contact me directly as i don't want to upload them here.

looking also at your pop on taiyou to kurashite kita, i would kindly recommend you to learn more about complex time signatures and rhythms before unnecessarily popping bubbles again. your timing suggestion shows a complete lack of understanding of the rhythmic structure of this song.

that said i will be checking all the time signatures with the tabs since there were some parts i was unsure about in the later sections of the song.

BrianTheDrummer wrote:

Discovered this map some time ago and just wanted to say it's absolutely amazing! I've listened to this song many times and besides the mapping itself being really good it supports the song really well. The song is quite complex with small details/accents and I was afraid for a map to ignore these and I'm glad you didn't. This song/artist is amazing and it's good to finally see a proper map being made for it. Keep up the work and hopefully you can get it ranked!
thanks for the kind words, happy to hear i achieved what i wanted to
Kagetsu

Zhuriel wrote:

110bpm 11/8 is correct according to the official tabs (http://www.sheethappenspublishing.com/p ... guitarbook) as well as anyone with a reasonable understanding of complex time signatures. (i've discussed it with dsco too) if you want excerpts of the tabs feel free to contact me directly as i don't want to upload them here.
it might be true that 110 bpm is the original one for this song (i actually checked the tab before popping this) however, 11/8 is unsupported by the game so you will have to transcribe 11/8 to more simple time signatures (11/8 is "faster" hence why the current timing doesn't work)

Zhuriel wrote:

looking also at your pop on taiyou to kurashite kita, i would kindly recommend you to learn more about complex time signatures and rhythms before unnecessarily popping bubbles again. your timing suggestion shows a complete lack of understanding of the rhythmic structure of this song.
all of those pops were properly discussed before taking action so nothing to worry about.

it's not about following an official number, but rather to make things work within the game limits.
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

Kagetsu wrote:

it might be true that 110 bpm is the original one for this song (i actually checked the tab before popping this) however, 11/8 is unsupported by the game so you will have to transcribe 11/8 to more simple time signatures (11/8 is "faster" hence why the current timing doesn't work)

Ranking Criteria wrote:

  1. Uninherited (red) Timing Sections should be used to accurately map the song's timing. They should synchronize to the beats of the song as accurately as possible and use the correct time signature whenever possible. If an incorrect time signature would last for more than 2 bars, add another timing section to fix it.(...)
while the game does not support 11/8, there is nothing unrankable in the way i've timed it according to this piece of wording in the rc as a) it is not possible to use the correct time signature and b) no incorrect time signature lasts for more than one bar.

Kagetsu wrote:

it's not about following an official number, but rather to make things work within the game limits.
things work quite well within the game's limits as-is, the tempo is correct and all the downbeats are in the right place. you can argue that not all the emphasis structure of the 11/8 matches up with the game metronome but that is a rather minor issue, not noticable in gameplay and probably also is the case in a few other examples, such as altale which uses a 3/4 instead of a 6/8 resulting in completely different subdivisions implied in the metronome to those actually used in the song.
Kagetsu

Zhuriel wrote:

while the game does not support 11/8, there is nothing unrankable in the way i've timed it according to this piece of wording in the rc as a) it is not possible to use the correct time signature and b) no incorrect time signature lasts for more than one bar.
that's the problem though. since it isn't possible to set the correct time signature, you should find a better way to represent that signature, (which in this case, would be by doubling the bpm). the current timing is actually an issue, because the metronome doesn't correctly synchronize to the song beats.
frukoyurdakul
I'm having a concern of one other part though, instead of the 11/8 section.

05:19:837 - I don't think this is flat 4/4. I haven't came up with a solution yet but I think that section needs to be fixed as well.
Secondly, the part after that kiai is also wrong (because of the similiar rhythms.) And here is what I've found:

You need a metronome reset on 05:38:874 - 05:46:074 - 05:53:274 - 06:00:474 - those 4 points. The guitar and the drums, and the rest of the structure of the music supports these resets. It will also fix the NC beats, which currently is the case.
squirrelpascals

Kagetsu wrote:

it's not about following an official number, but rather to make things work within the game limits.
exactly what limits are being pushed here? there shouldn't be a need to stray away from the songs original bpm to reflect more accurate timing - based off your example in your earlier post. Your timing points seem to reflect more of an alternating 5/4, 6/4 rather than what the song was truly written to according to the tabs. I'm going to have to say I agree with Zhur on this one.

Let's get another say in this from someone who's a lot more experienced in this stuff, since were obviously at a disagreement and trying to prove eachother wrong won't be as productive :P
Kagetsu

squirrelpascals wrote:

there shouldn't be a need to stray away from the songs original bpm to reflect more accurate timing - based off your example in your earlier post. Your timing points seem to reflect more of an alternating 5/4, 6/4 rather than what the song was truly written to according to the tabs. I'm going to have to say I agree with Zhur on this one.
i don't think you get the full picture of what i'm trying to explain so i made a video showing what the time signatures and bpm actually mean.


  1. from bar 1 to 6, it shows a 6/4 110 bpm pace (this is what's in the map, currently)
  2. from bar 7 to 12, it shows a 6/8 110 bpm pace (this is what the original composer wrote, whether it's 11 or 5+6 /8 is irrelevant, as these changes would only add more bars)
  3. from bar 13 to 18, it shows a 6/4 220 bpm pace (this is what i consider a more accurate adaptation of what the composer wrote)
i know you guys are attached to this "110 bpm" number and don't want to change it, but in reality the song's pace is way faster. even if you're trying to represent an 11/8 signature, 220 bpm 11/4 is proven to be more accurate.
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

Kagetsu wrote:

  1. from bar 1 to 6, it shows a 6/4 110 bpm pace (this is what's in the map, currently)
what's in the map currently is not a 6/4 but a 11/8 implemented by resetting the timing with red lines. as far as i'm concerned, (as well as the game mechanically is concerned) this is equivalent to a 11/8 with a different structure (which is not a thing that osu cares about) and thus is the best way to implement a 11/8 time signature in osu.

Kagetsu wrote:

i know you guys are attached to this "110 bpm" number and don't want to change it, but in reality the song's pace is way faster. even if you're trying to represent an 11/8 signature, 220 bpm 11/4 is proven to be more accurate.
the song's "pace", in my opinion, lies in the subdivisions of the 11/8 (3-2-3-3 for the most part), which is not something that osu is (nor in all likelyhood ever will be given the popularity of songs with the level of rhythmic complexity needed for that to matter) capable of accurately representing. while 220 may cause all metronome beats to land on subdivisons, it also misrepresents the "pace" you seem so intent on. there are no rules in the ranking criteria stating that all metronome beats have to land on subdivisions, and there are ranked maps in 6/8 implemented as 3/4, so i see no argument why 220 11/4 is a more accurate representation of the song than 110 11/8 with a different structure.

frukoyurdakul wrote:

05:19:837 - I don't think this is flat 4/4. I haven't came up with a solution yet but I think that section needs to be fixed as well.
Secondly, the part after that kiai is also wrong (because of the similiar rhythms.)
i originally timed it like your suggestion, however in the transcription it is written as 4/4 with heavy syncopation so i updated the timing to be accurate to that.
Kagetsu

Zhuriel wrote:

while 220 may cause all metronome beats to land on subdivisons, it also misrepresents the "pace" you seem so intent on.
they're not subdivisions though. if you watched the video, you would understand that you're missing half of the downbeats. the downbeats for 6/8, 11/8, whateverthing/8 are supposed to land twice the speed than it would happen for a /4 song. it doesn't misrepresent the pace of the song, actually it makes more accurate.

Zhuriel wrote:

there are no rules in the ranking criteria stating that all metronome beats have to land on subdivisions,
i insist, they're not subdivisions. and yes, there is a rule that says that the timing should represent the beats of the song which is not the case for this map.

Zhuriel wrote:

and there are ranked maps in 6/8 implemented as 3/4, so i see no argument why 220 11/4 is a more accurate representation of the song than 110 11/8 with a different structure.
i don't know how is this a valid excuse. appealing to common practice is a fallacy. i don't see any valid argument here other than you wanting to keep this 110 number for any arbitrary reason
Topic Starter
Zhuriel
Allow me one last attempt at explaining the structure of the 11/8 meter in this song:



similar to a 12/8, each of these groupings structurally works like a beat in a 4/4, whereas that would not be the case in a 220BPM 11/4. this is why i do not consider timing at 220 to be a more accurate representation of the composition.

adding to that, having to either drastically and unfittingly change tempo at some point or time the entire song at double tempo, as well as undesired slider ticks introduced by the doubling would mean investing a significant amount of time into reducing the quality of the map, which i have no intention of doing.
Kagetsu

Zhuriel wrote:

Allow me one last attempt at explaining the structure of the 11/8 meter in this song:



similar to a 12/8, each of these groupings structurally works like a beat in a 4/4, whereas that would not be the case in a 220BPM 11/4. this is why i do not consider timing at 220 to be a more accurate representation of the composition.
that's not how it works though. those groupings are meant to clarify how to count the notes in the measure (like 1 2 3, 1 2, 1 2 3, 1 2 3, also known as metre, however that's not the pace of the song. as you might know, 11/8 clarifies that there should be 11 eight notes per measure so that's what the issue is at the moment, you're missing half of the beats in the song, (because the beats are meant to be eight notes).

i find it weird that you're mentioning metre, because your current timing doesn't even land the spots that should be accentuated in the "score" you just post.

the groups you're alluding to, in the first measure are:
  1. 00:01:305 -
  2. 00:01:850 - this isn't even a beat in your current timing
  3. 00:02:395 - more of the same
  4. 00:03:214 -
  5. 00:04:032 -
metric isn't really a thing on osu, the only requirement is to have beats synchronized with the song. however you can always divide the 11 measures into 3-2-3-3 by using metronome resets if you want to do so. it would be something like this:

[TimingPoints]
1305,272.727272727273,11,1,1,70,1,0
2123,272.727272727273,11,1,1,70,1,0
2668,272.727272727273,11,1,1,70,1,0
3486,272.727272727273,11,1,1,70,1,0
4304,272.727272727273,11,1,1,70,1,0

in any case, using the first timing point would be enough
Topic Starter
Zhuriel
a recent RC update was pointed out to me that says:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

  1. Uninherited timing points must be used to accurately map the song's time signatures. If an incorrect time signature lasts for more than one bar, a uninherited timing point must be added on the next downbeat to reset the time signature. For time signatures unsupported in the editor, metronome resets or editing of the .osu file are acceptable.
therefore, my implementation is now explicitly allowed by ranking criteria.
Turquoise-
absolutely rekt
Kagetsu

Zhuriel wrote:

a recent RC update was pointed out to me that says:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

  1. Uninherited timing points must be used to accurately map the song's time signatures. If an incorrect time signature lasts for more than one bar, a uninherited timing point must be added on the next downbeat to reset the time signature. For time signatures unsupported in the editor, metronome resets or editing of the .osu file are acceptable.
therefore, my implementation is now explicitly allowed by ranking criteria.
true, but not exactly for the reasons you pointed. the new RC just doesn't state that the metronome should follow the beats in the song. in any case, it says something about accurately map the song's time signatures but that's now kinda vague in my eyes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Turquoise- wrote:

absolutely rekt
please avoid comments like this. it creates a wrong perception of what i was trying to achieve here. this wasn't a personal attack or anything. let's say it's just my "job" as a bn to discuss these type of stuff (because the metronome is still wrong)
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

Kagetsu wrote:

true, but not exactly for the reasons you pointed. the new RC just doesn't state that the metronome should follow the beats in the song. in any case, it says something about accurately map the song's time signatures but that's now kinda vague in my eyes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
not sure how explicitly allowing metronome resets is vague in any way, if anything it is vague in a good way as it allows mappers to choose which of the available inaccurate workarounds works best for them. i feel like you misunderstood my point, i never argued this implementation is accurate to the song, however i consider it more accurate and resulting in a better map than the alternative.
Kagetsu

Zhuriel wrote:

not sure how explicitly allowing metronome resets is vague in any way, if anything it is vague in a good way as it allows mappers to choose which of the available inaccurate workarounds works best for them. i feel like you misunderstood my point, i never argued this implementation is accurate to the song, however i consider it more accurate and resulting in a better map than the alternative.
i never said metronome resets are vague though? i'm questioning the part of Uninherited timing points must be used to accurately map the song's time signatures. it says accurately but doesn't explain what they consider accurate as you can now use a sum of correct bpm + wrong time signature which results in the metronome being off just like in this case.
even if you're using metronome resets, that doesn't change the fact that you're missing half of the beats or that the metronome should be twice as fast as the current one.
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

Kagetsu wrote:

i never said metronome resets are vague though? i'm questioning the part of Uninherited timing points must be used to accurately map the song's time signatures. it says accurately but doesn't explain what they consider accurate as you can now use a sum of correct bpm + wrong time signature which results in the metronome being off just like in this case.
as opposed to your variant which uses both incorrect tempo and incorrect time signature? (refer to my previous posts for the difference between 11/8 and 11/4, not gonna explain this a third time)

i'm not sure how you reconcile explicitly allowing metronome resets with the rule being vague as to whether this is correctly timed - i can't think of any other way to implement unsupported time signatures using metronome resets, so explicitly allowing metronome resets refers this implementation, unless you can come up with another reasonable way of implementing unsupported time signatures using metronome resets which i very much doubt there is.
dsco
okay hopefully i can help address / mediate this on some level as it is not progressing anywhere.

using 220bpm is a bad idea for this map and would set a bad precedent for maps to come, and here's why:
if a song were to be 110bpm 4/4 and then have a measure of 7/8, you would have to add an extra red point with double the bpm at 220bpm 7/4 which would not only mess with SV but be an inaccurate BPM reading which it shouldn't read as in the song info, because the song is not in *any* way 220bpm. yes, you could fix the SV, but is an extra step that it does not make sense to require.
i've spoken with pishifat on this and he also agrees that you should not double the song's bpm.

thus, the only way to correctly time the map is with metronome resets, as zhuriel has done. i do believe, however, it makes more sense to change the time signature from 6/4 to 11/4 so that the 'correct time signature' can at least be ascertained from the timing panel, and maintain at least some level of relationship between the time signature chosen in the editor and the true time signature of the song, though this does not do anything. it should also be noted that this is done later in the map with 7/4 (instead of 4/4) starting at 06:04:331. also 06:16:091 ought to be changed to 9/4 to keep consistent with the measures / time signatures chosen before.

i can also verify that the 4/4 section int he middle is indeed 4/4, heavily syncopated groupings, though i dont agree with having truncated measures of 4/4 (starting at 05:35:510) instead of adding a red tick that says 3/4 (as would be correct in the tabulature, as i've gathered from zhuriel)

hopefully this can at the very least progress discussion on this map.
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

dsco wrote:

i do believe, however, it makes more sense to change the time signature from 6/4 to 11/4 so that the 'correct time signature' can at least be ascertained from the timing panel, and maintain at least some level of relationship between the time signature chosen in the editor and the true time signature of the song, though this does not do anything. it should also be noted that this is done later in the map with 7/4 (instead of 4/4) starting at 06:04:331. also 06:16:091 ought to be changed to 9/4 to keep consistent with the measures / time signatures chosen before.
though there is no mechanical difference i can see the point of wanting a cleaner timing, so i'll implement this.

dsco wrote:

i can also verify that the 4/4 section int he middle is indeed 4/4, heavily syncopated groupings, though i dont agree with having truncated measures of 4/4 (starting at 05:35:510) instead of adding a red tick that says 3/4 (as would be correct in the tabulature, as i've gathered from zhuriel)
technically this falls under the "one bar" rule and reduces rounding errors by eliminating a few red lines but again i can see the point of clean timing so will do.

on the same note the same thing applies for the 2/4 in the calm section so i will be implementing that too

oh i also removed one superfluous redline and fixed like 2 hitsounds because i always find mistakes in the hitsounds somehow
Bonsai
Hi, since the topic of how this sort of timing should be handled has been brought up to the the timing-UBKRC by dsco recently, we are currently working on figuring out how we can regulate this - Whatever the exact results will be, I can already relatively safely say that doubling the BPM for this is not what we want at all. This would go against the definition of "Beats per Minute" (a "Beat" generally being defined as a (occasionally dotted) quater note, and thus a white tick in osu! representing that quater note, never an eighth note), and as a result that would lead to a lot of issues of how to handle stuff overall.

tl;dr current timing is fine, move along
squirrelpascals

Bonsai wrote:

the the

:) :) :) :) :) :)
SilverCatalyst

squirrelpascals wrote:

Bonsai wrote:

the the

:) :) :) :) :) :)
[unrelated to the map but]
i checked to see who bubbled this amazing map and of course it was squirrelpascals
you're a blessing as a mapper lmao, you're almost my favorite mapper of 2017
celerih
Hello I'm here because Zhuriel doesn't know how to talk to BNs

[
The End of Everything
]
  1. 00:27:897 (3) - Have this as a circle + a 1/4 slider because a reverse is too weak imo for the drums on 00:28:034 -
  2. 00:37:170 (3) - Put this a bit lower so it doesn't touch 00:36:897 (1) -
  3. 01:22:306 (1,2,3,4) - can u make these a bit more parallel or at least be at the same angle pls
  4. 01:23:532 (6) - I don't think there's anything to justify 6 not being grouped with 4 and 5
  5. 03:53:602 (1) - For more impact overlap this note with the slider head of 03:52:352 (3) -
  6. 04:09:102 (6,7) - Looks like a 1/4 gap because of 04:08:727 (4,5) - . Try and differentiate them a bit
  7. 04:23:727 (4,5,6,7) - same as above
  8. 05:18:335 (1,2,3,4) - Decrease distance here because pitch is going down
  9. 06:39:566 (1,2,3,4,1) - Why is spacing decreasing here?
  10. 08:12:366 - What's up with the 5 greenlines here?

Call me back for a rebubble (:
Topic Starter
Zhuriel

celerih wrote:

Hello I'm here because Zhuriel doesn't know how to talk to BNs ɿ(。・ɜ・)ɾ
SPOILER
[
The End of Everything
]
  1. 00:27:897 (3) - Have this as a circle + a 1/4 slider because a reverse is too weak imo for the drums on 00:28:034 - i want to emphasize the held guitar note here and that would somewhat take away from that. i tried out a few patterns to increase emphasis on (3) with spacing and have the kick clickable but i can't really find anything that i like
  2. 00:37:170 (3) - Put this a bit lower so it doesn't touch 00:36:897 (1) - would mess with the triangle pattern in a way i really don't like, alternative would be to increase spacing on the triangle but that would mess with the decreasing spacing in the pattern as well so i think this overlap is the least of the evils there are to choose from
  3. 01:22:306 (1,2,3,4) - can u make these a bit more parallel or at least be at the same angle pls rotated to sit symmetrically on 01:22:851 (1) -
  4. 01:23:532 (6) - I don't think there's anything to justify 6 not being grouped with 4 and 5 follows the same pattern as 00:27:079 (1,2,3) - in emphasizing bass drums
  5. 03:53:602 (1) - For more impact overlap this note with the slider head of 03:52:352 (3) - i want this to follow the back-and-forth pattern of 03:51:102 (5,6,1) -
  6. 04:09:102 (6,7) - Looks like a 1/4 gap because of 04:08:727 (4,5) - . Try and differentiate them a bit
  7. 04:23:727 (4,5,6,7) - same as above that would be because the kickslider was added later on, moving the double a bit closer to the kickslider to differentiate
  8. 05:18:335 (1,2,3,4) - Decrease distance here because pitch is going down starting pitch is lower but it switches from a descending run to an ascending one with wider intervals, so lower spacing would be unfitting imo
  9. 06:39:566 (1,2,3,4,1) - Why is spacing decreasing here? rhythm guitar descending like the rest of the patterns in this section
  10. 08:12:366 - What's up with the 5 greenlines here? i covered the other cymbals in the outro with sliderticks but since there isn't a slider tick here i made my own pseudo-tick with sliderslide volume manipulation

Call me back for a rebubble (:
celerih
(: Rebubbled!

Metadata: https://plini.bandcamp.com/album/the-end-of-everything

Logs
2017-10-24 17:49 celerih: did u update it
2017-10-24 17:49 celerih: yes you did
2017-10-24 17:49 Zhuriel: just now
2017-10-24 17:52 celerih: okay time to actually recheck
2017-10-24 17:55 celerih: only thing really that I think you should change it 03:53:602 (1) -
2017-10-24 17:55 celerih: I get the back and forth you're going for but as the end of a section it feels quite lacking
2017-10-24 17:56 Zhuriel: hm
2017-10-24 17:56 Zhuriel: how about rotating the entire triangle so there's more space to go with the back and forth at higher spacing
2017-10-24 17:56 celerih: that would work
2017-10-24 17:58 Zhuriel: osu.ppy.sh/ss/9390196 like this
2017-10-24 17:58 Zhuriel: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9390196 like this
2017-10-24 17:58 Zhuriel: y u no copy http cmh my head software
2017-10-24 17:58 celerih: yeah that's fine
2017-10-24 17:59 Zhuriel: anything else?
2017-10-24 17:59 celerih: mot a fan of how 00:54:352 (1,2) - is stacked
2017-10-24 18:00 Zhuriel: hm
2017-10-24 18:00 Zhuriel: it's kinda a consequence of the two patterns that come together there
2017-10-24 18:00 Zhuriel: but i guess i could try inverting the first stack to make it look nicer
2017-10-24 18:00 Zhuriel: or all of them really
2017-10-24 18:01 celerih: that would work
2017-10-24 18:01 Zhuriel: not like the pattern shows up that often
2017-10-24 18:04 Zhuriel: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9390219
2017-10-24 18:04 celerih: better
2017-10-24 18:07 celerih: increase distance here to make it more obvious it's not 1/2 07:41:848 (1,2,3,1) -
2017-10-24 18:08 Zhuriel: huh what
2017-10-24 18:08 celerih: wait
2017-10-24 18:08 celerih: nvm I'm drunk
2017-10-24 18:08 celerih: no it's good
2017-10-24 18:09 celerih: I think that should be it then
2017-10-24 18:09 Zhuriel: wheee
2017-10-24 18:09 celerih: oh wait
2017-10-24 18:09 celerih: add prog to that
2017-10-24 18:09 celerih: *to tags
2017-10-24 18:10 celerih: a lot of people use that abbreviation so it could be useful to include it
2017-10-24 18:10 celerih: website can be weird about it
2017-10-24 18:10 Zhuriel: makes sense
2017-10-24 18:10 Zhuriel: i have to go into text editor for that cause wine
2017-10-24 18:11 celerih: ya ok I just tried prog metal in website and paper moon didn't pop up
2017-10-24 18:12 Zhuriel: ok updating then
Bergy
holy when did this all happen

its happeNING and i didnt even notice
squirrelpascals
The mappers understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these patterns, to realise that they’re not just good patterns- they say something deep about LIFE.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply