Monstrata wrote:

unhinged

00:03:341 (3,4,1) - This flows really poorly imo. Really expected something top/left to compliment the counterclockwise movement you had set up with 00:02:737 (1,1,2,3) - i nerfed this, i hope that it is a satisfactory nerf as i want to keep the same flow: the idea with the patterns like this one in this section (all of them are like this) is that the flow changes circular direction for emphasis on the 00:03:599 - note, thats the kind of emphasis i hear in the song and my interpretation of the sound: here's a paint diagram of the new flow now that i've nerfed it to make it a bit more flowy for the player, green is the counterclockwise flow and blue shows where it switches over

SPOILER

Visualization of what i mean. this is what i would have expected

00:04:117 (1,2,3) - The spacing here seems really unnecessary to me. Actually, even using a circle on the blue tick felt unnecessary let alone a 1/4 jump here. Can I hear your reasoning for such a drastic movement? Because 00:04:203 - has very little support if any at all... Listen to it at like 50% playback, nothing lands on that note. The same can be said for 00:04:892 (4,5) - . I think the overmap just feels really blatant, and you use really difficult 1/4 movement here too, which makes it stand out even further. the first important distinction to make in my opinion is looking at these 1/4 patterns in the context of the map that they in: these are not hard patterns in the context of the rest of my map, these are the easiest 1/4 patterns in the entire map and dumbing down the difficulty in a section of medium intensity of the song would make the map itself inconsistent conceptually. second, the actual reasoning behind the notes and the "ghost note" on the blue tick that is being debated to exist even, the synth wavers on the 00:04:203 note, notice that 00:04:117 - and 00:04:289 - are the same tone, but 00:04:203 - is a completely different one, hence the existance of this note. as for why it's so emphasized + spaced, the first reason for that is the previous point about the entire MAP being difficult and this being a medium intensity point in the song, and the actual motion itself is meant to emphasize this waver in the synth that i mentioned previously, hopefully this was indepth enough to explain, this applies to all other instances of this note in this section: now with ALL OF THAT being said, i nerfed it a bit so that the higher emphasis patterns would have more emphasis LOL
00:05:151 (1,2,3,4) - This is a doublet rhythm. Since the diff is trying to be technical, you could emphasize the blue tick on 00:05:237 - instead.

Rhythm like this instead

i could do this, but there is a very clear note on every tick of this stream, and the small spacing into 00:05:496 (1) - shape and velocity is meant to emphasize the huge POW in the song that comes there, as the drum ticks at 00:05:151 (1,2,3,4) - that i'm mapping to have that muted, underwater sound to them that makes this pattern feel so satisfying to play, using the doublet rhythm won't provide the same tactile feeling/satisfaction + wont represent the sound i'm following here which i believe has the most emphasis in the music
00:05:841 (1,2,3) - The jump and circular movement you set up really causes players to want to play out slider 3. I think positioning 00:06:358 (1,2) - in a way that would encourage this movement would be more interesting. Right now you break flow on slider 3, and it benefits the player not to play the slider out but instead jump rightward. It causes your circular movement to really go to waste here. agreed, i changed this one in a similar fashion to the other pattern of this kind, moving the pattern up to keep true to the original flow while making it much more comfortable for the player

Just an idea

just taking a small space in the middle of your mod to say that i completely reworked the rhythms you mentioned as overmapped in the first segment of the map. the first rhythms i am 100% sure exist as there is literally a different synth note on them, but i agree that they shouldn't be as emphasized as they are so i have nerfed all of them, and instead slowly built up their spacing so that it hopefully works a bit better for you: the second ones after asking some opinions and listening closer myself i agree that it does not exist, and just extended every slider and switched some patterns around

00:08:255 (1,2,3) - This I can understand. Here the 1/4 would make sense. But stuff like 00:07:479 (3,4,5) - , its just overmapped. You can see how similar these two patterns are, yet one is clearly supported while one is not. If they play similarly, it causes the pattern that actually does have 1/4 support to feel like any pattern, whereas it should be emphasized and made to stand out. fixed, addressed above
00:09:634 (1,2,3) - Same, stuff like this just isn't supported at all imo. fixed, addressed above
00:10:410 (4,5) - Etc... I'm going to stop now, because issue of overmapping is just repeating itself. fixed, addressed above
00:13:772 (1,2,3,4) - One of these is not like the other (4) use a 1/4 slider for 3 isntead? you right, buffed the spacing to reflect the new patterning and to emphasize the triple and changed 3 to a kick
00:14:806 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - The sliders are good. Your decision to switch to circles is really odd though. Especially considering how you mapped 00:18:599 (1,2) - afterward. It's an unnecessary shift in rhythm that creates an inconsistency. there is a very very clear difference between the two sounds, with an audible drum/bass (not sure which cause i suk at music terms) click on each of these clickable notes, where as i chose to use sliders for the other due to the lack of that fill being there, and the difference in the synth rhythm
00:23:600 (2,1,1,2,3,4,1) - This is good though. The circle on 00:23:772 (1) - allows you to break into the stream rhythm since you allow the players to recognize theres a shift in rhythm due to there being a circle rather than a slider. If you want to integrate streams, you could do something like this instead. the reason the above has the flow that it does is because of the sound, i want the player to jet right into the fill like the song flies right into it, when you compare to the rather chilled spacing + sound of 00:18:944 - in comparison, this is much more chill pattern because of the peak of intensity that just came at 00:18:599 (1,2), making this dead stop have the right emphasis for this section. I am mentioning this one because i wanted to preemptively talk about the comparison between the two
00:25:151 (1,2,3,1,2) - The SV changes here don't seem necessary at all... rather, they make it seem like different rhythms are being used doe to their noticeably different lengths. ehhhhhhhhh it still has been very clear to every testplayer which sliders are 1/4 and which are 1/2, it is consistent and while i can understand the concern, this is perfectly readable for the player: as for why i did it, i wanted the player to have more movement on the longer sound of 00:25:237 (2), where as the 00:25:496 (1,2) - notes here sound a lot shorter, thus the lower sv which gives the rhythm a denser feel in this section
00:29:289 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - The double rhythm is really hard to read here. honestly, none of the rhythm layers here uses exclusively doubles. For example, there's a note on 00:29:720 - which separates it from the doublet you use on 00:29:289 (1,2) - .Additinally, following that double rhythm, it should actually be like 00:29:979 - circle here. and circle here instead. i really really really need to disagree with you here, listening to the lower synth that i begin following at 00:27:910 - in this doubles segment, you'll find that it follows all but 1 note of the doubles here (00:29:892 - a note which you could argue is implied and simply covered by the clutter of other sounds in this segment), this doubles rhythm exists in basically all of my difficulties of this map and i believe it is the clearest, most intuitive way to map this segment of the song. in terms of pure readability, it always had read fine to playtesters and i find myself that this is fine to read due to how the spacing first decreases with 00:29:289 (1,2,1,2) - before the use of spaced doubles, by the time the spaced doubles come the rhythm is very clear. i tried to use the rhythm that you provided but it just feels overmapped to me listening to the song, while it's technically supported i really dont think it represents the song as well as the current doubles rhythm does

This rhythm would work better.

00:32:737 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - If anything, don't the 1/4's fade out with the linear stream? shouldn't spacing get smaller if anything not bigger? i am trying to keep consistency with 00:27:220 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - which is increasing in spacing due to the sounds in that segment, i understand the sounds are different here but i think that this the sound isnt really a drastic change and the spacing stays quite low, i think the current stream shape here is acceptable given the music
00:34:979 (1,1) - Yea, these aren't really supported at all, mapping those 1/4 jumps just feel really overmapped. there are drum hits on these notes like very very very very loud and clear drum hits, not even like the other ones in the intro where it ended up being slightly questionable and i changed it, these DEFINITELY exist and are supported in the music. now, obviously the two blue tick notes you've highlighted shouldnt have any spacing emphasis on them, which i absolutely agree with! thats why it is patterned in a way that puts all the emphasis on 00:35:065 (2,2) - literally all the emphasis in this segment is on these two notes. you could argue the movement between these two notes 00:34:806 (1,1) - is too far but i'd say it is both warranted and necessary given the intensity of the sounds in the segment. to be double sure, i asked multiple people and these sounds 110% exist with drum beats
00:38:427 (1,2,1,2) - Really odd that you don't map the white tick considering you could actually map something 1/4 jumpy onto it for emphasis lol. that would feel incredibly overmapped and out of place because the whole of this kiai segment is following the rhythm that culminates in this doubles rhythm, the doubles rhythm which is foreshadowed at 00:34:979 - i will note just for reference
00:40:151 (2,1,2,1,2,1) - Man, i wish you did more stuff like this. This is really good. Great flow and angle usage lol. thank you i think that this flow really fits the sound here
00:52:737 (1) - Ca't believe im saying this, but this slider is really undermapped for the density of the rhythms you've been mapping to so far. yes it is, it's supposed to be a hard break in the song's density to provide a small break/buildup which starts here for the new section,
also to follow the massive "flowbreak" in the song itself with this loud jarring sound out of nowhere
00:57:737 (1,2) - Can you space the two sliders out more? I think its really easy to misread this as 1/4 streams due to how you've utilized 1/4's so far. sure spaced em, spaced them in all of their instances except the back and forth ones at 01:05:151 (1,2) - because they are already quite spaced
01:15:496 (1,2) - You could make these denser too, considering the 1/4's you've been using so far. The shift to such simple sliders is a bit odd. hmmmmm maybe it feels a little odd but i really think these space-y sounds need the long holds, i think having these very simple patterns right before the buildup is also good, this is ok as is imo but i could always change it to circles, i think that the holds just add a better feel
01:18:772 (1,2,1) - If you had put 01:19:030 (1) - on the white tick and mapped that jump, i would have been perfectly fine with it. Actually I would have said it fit amazingly well here. let me think about that one as you mod the other diffs, i think the current rhythm is exactly what i'm looking for though following the vocal, it feels kind of meme and too sudden for the player to make sure a jump even with that sound on the white tick, thats not in the forefront of the player's mind when they're playing this rhythm imo. if you think i need to space this more to make it easier to read lemme know but i think rn it is good placement + structure + fine to read so i dont wanna move it
01:25:582 (2,3) - At least ctrl+g? The flowbreak onto 2 isn't really warranted at all, and I think people are going to play that 1/4 square with at least a bit of rotating movement instead of just aiming at the center. 01:29:634 (1,2,3) - Is much better. on the contrary, in my opinion it is way way way more comfortable and satisfying to play with this being a flowbreak from 1-2, the sudden snap is very crisp and satisfying with the sound and since this entire segment has the same circular directional motion its a very satisfying payoff to the "buildup" of the flow of the entire segment. 1/4 jump patterns work when they are incredibly sharply angled and clear, and i think that making this circular flow as well would lose emphasis from the pattern, and also make it harder to hit for the player
01:29:979 (1,1,2,1,2) - This movement is considerably harder than 01:27:220 (1,1,2,1,2) - , With 01:27:220 (1,1,2,1,2) - I can land this mouse-only even lol, because while there is a jump onto the circle, the movement from circle > slider is very smooth. With 01:29:979 (1,1,2,1,2) - though, you are forced to break flow playing the slider ontop of snapping to it. used your suggestion in a tweaked way to fit my structure

This is an idea you can try. Simple flow onto the circle this time, and sharper flow playing the slider

01:30:668 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - Not a good movement imo. There is little to no flow here. The other patterns you used (in this same melody) were a lot better because they promoted angle shifts, but here it's just uh xP... switched it up
01:35:927 (1,2) - The flow here felt kinda odd. I think the direction you point slider 2 throws the flow off. You could try replicating the slider of 01:35:496 (1) - and do something like this: It'll continue the counterclockwise movement here rather than interrupting it with that sharp rightward movement you currently have. changed, also changed the direction of the following pattern to suit

~

01:47:910 - Not going to map this? ;c or 01:49:289 - ? no cause it doesn't follow the rhythm i'm following throughout the whole segment even though they are delicious drum hits
01:51:875 (3) - Doublet rhythm here. yes however there is a distinct drum hit on each note, i know i just said i've been following the synth the entire section but swapping to the stream here for the drums as they come in gives a nice sense of finality to the map + expresses the end of the song well
Rhythm after the kiai is a bit odd, but manageable, just some parts that felt like they ended up ignoring strong beats. Given how dense this map is, you can always map those beats out in an unemphasized manner and dictate what later you want the player to follow based on your spacing and rhythm choices. imo the rhythm choices in the section after the kiai are consistent and okay, but if you have any specific suggestions regarding this please let me know in the rest of your mod so i can think about it and apply/reply to them

The kiai is actually quite manageable. There are some places I think are hard to read, but I think anyone who can actually play this diff should have no trouble reading it at least after a 2nd run.

[]

I'll just go through top diff for now and test the waters. Take your time in replying, no rush~ thanks so much, incredibly helpful mod

Descaii wrote:

This is by far my favorite mapset in osu, insanely fun

Kaifin wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

unhinged


00:04:117 (1,2,3) - The spacing here seems really unnecessary to me. Actually, even using a circle on the blue tick felt unnecessary let alone a 1/4 jump here. Can I hear your reasoning for such a drastic movement? Because 00:04:203 - has very little support if any at all... Listen to it at like 50% playback, nothing lands on that note. The same can be said for 00:04:892 (4,5) - . I think the overmap just feels really blatant, and you use really difficult 1/4 movement here too, which makes it stand out even further. the first important distinction to make in my opinion is looking at these 1/4 patterns in the context of the map that they in: these are not hard patterns in the context of the rest of my map, these are the easiest 1/4 patterns in the entire map and dumbing down the difficulty in a section of medium intensity of the song would make the map itself inconsistent conceptually. second, the actual reasoning behind the notes and the "ghost note" on the blue tick that is being debated to exist even, the synth wavers on the 00:04:203 note, notice that 00:04:117 - and 00:04:289 - are the same tone, but 00:04:203 - is a completely different one, hence the existance of this note. as for why it's so emphasized + spaced, the first reason for that is the previous point about the entire MAP being difficult and this being a medium intensity point in the song, and the actual motion itself is meant to emphasize this waver in the synth that i mentioned previously, hopefully this was indepth enough to explain, this applies to all other instances of this note in this section: now with ALL OF THAT being said, i nerfed it a bit so that the higher emphasis patterns would have more emphasis LOL
The pattern is nerfed. That's fine, but the ghost note is not. Maybe there is actually a 1/4. It's clearly extremely hard to hear if we're discussing the synth or hi-hat wavering. The entire map is already well overspaced. You don't need to include unnecessary 1/4's like this, and space them like so, especially when there is so little music support for them. You can argue that there "is" something there, but it's an entirely different argument to say you need to map the 1/4 to something clickable, and another entirely different argument to say you need to use such a pattern to do so.

00:05:151 (1,2,3,4) - This is a doublet rhythm. Since the diff is trying to be technical, you could emphasize the blue tick on 00:05:237 - instead.

Rhythm like this instead

i could do this, but there is a very clear note on every tick of this stream, and the small spacing into 00:05:496 (1) - shape and velocity is meant to emphasize the huge POW in the song that comes there, as the drum ticks at 00:05:151 (1,2,3,4) - that i'm mapping to have that muted, underwater sound to them that makes this pattern feel so satisfying to play, using the doublet rhythm won't provide the same tactile feeling/satisfaction + wont represent the sound i'm following here which i believe has the most emphasis in the music Fair enough.

just taking a small space in the middle of your mod to say that i completely reworked the rhythms you mentioned as overmapped in the first segment of the map. the first rhythms i am 100% sure exist as there is literally a different synth note on them, but i agree that they shouldn't be as emphasized as they are so i have nerfed all of them, and instead slowly built up their spacing so that it hopefully works a bit better for you: the second ones after asking some opinions and listening closer myself i agree that it does not exist, and just extended every slider and switched some patterns around Mentioned earlier.

00:14:806 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - The sliders are good. Your decision to switch to circles is really odd though. Especially considering how you mapped 00:18:599 (1,2) - afterward. It's an unnecessary shift in rhythm that creates an inconsistency. there is a very very clear difference between the two sounds, with an audible drum/bass (not sure which cause i suk at music terms) click on each of these clickable notes, where as i chose to use sliders for the other due to the lack of that fill being there, and the difference in the synth rhythm It's not "very very clear" honestly... It's not even audible for me, I'm checking on both channels and slowing down to 25%. In any case. Your sliders are clearly following the synth no? Switching to the stream clearly demonstrates you aren't following the synth anymore. That's the issue here. The change is jarring because you decide to follow something else right at the end of the pattern.

00:25:151 (1,2,3,1,2) - The SV changes here don't seem necessary at all... rather, they make it seem like different rhythms are being used doe to their noticeably different lengths. ehhhhhhhhh it still has been very clear to every testplayer which sliders are 1/4 and which are 1/2, it is consistent and while i can understand the concern, this is perfectly readable for the player: as for why i did it, i wanted the player to have more movement on the longer sound of 00:25:237 (2), where as the 00:25:496 (1,2) - notes here sound a lot shorter, thus the lower sv which gives the rhythm a denser feel in this section But these SV's really set up 00:27:910 (1,2) - for failure imo. I mean, I guess people who can actually play this map probably won't have much trouble reading this? But you still have to draw a line. Just because people can play it, doesn't mean it's good. Pro players are supposed to be able to play extremely difficult and otherwise awkward patterns. That's what makes them pro. You can see this disassociation with mapping quality and player skill too.

00:29:289 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - The double rhythm is really hard to read here. honestly, none of the rhythm layers here uses exclusively doubles. For example, there's a note on 00:29:720 - which separates it from the doublet you use on 00:29:289 (1,2) - .Additinally, following that double rhythm, it should actually be like 00:29:979 - circle here. and circle here instead. i really really really need to disagree with you here, listening to the lower synth that i begin following at 00:27:910 - in this doubles segment, you'll find that it follows all but 1 note of the doubles here (00:29:892 - a note which you could argue is implied and simply covered by the clutter of other sounds in this segment), this doubles rhythm exists in basically all of my difficulties of this map and i believe it is the clearest, most intuitive way to map this segment of the song. in terms of pure readability, it always had read fine to playtesters and i find myself that this is fine to read due to how the spacing first decreases with 00:29:289 (1,2,1,2) - before the use of spaced doubles, by the time the spaced doubles come the rhythm is very clear. i tried to use the rhythm that you provided but it just feels overmapped to me listening to the song, while it's technically supported i really dont think it represents the song as well as the current doubles rhythm does

This rhythm would work better.

First of all, if you are "following the lower synth" at 00:27:910 (1,2,3) - , then you have the wrong rhythm. It's far to simplified. In any case,
you give me a lot of reasons, but you're avoiding the topic of the double's correlation with the song's rhythm and instruments, which is the crux of the issue. Why should I click on 00:29:806 (1,2) - but not 00:29:979 - ? And why shouldn't I click on say 00:29:979 - which contains the lower synth, and leads into 00:30:324 (1) - ?. Using this same interpretation in your other diffs was one of your arguments, but that doesn't validate the rhythm, it just means your rhythm choice is consistent across your diffs (but that could be consistently incorrect). You could argue that the rhythm can be readable. But that also doesn't address how your rhythm choice corresponds with the music here.


00:32:737 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - If anything, don't the 1/4's fade out with the linear stream? shouldn't spacing get smaller if anything not bigger? i am trying to keep consistency with 00:27:220 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - which is increasing in spacing due to the sounds in that segment, i understand the sounds are different here but i think that this the sound isnt really a drastic change and the spacing stays quite low, i think the current stream shape here is acceptable given the music

Honestly, the other stream you referenced also doesn't make a lot of sense. In the other stream, there's an extra note on 00:27:737 (3) - .
Which I guess you interpretted to mean the stream is more intense. This feels more like just an extra note that can be emphasized through hitsounding.
But since this is more subjective, I'll let it pass. The initial stream I mentioned though, doesn't contain this, and shouldn't be mapped consistently if the sounds aren't consistent to begin with. You yourself said the sounds are different, just not drastic. That should be enough reason to at least reconsider trying to map two patterns consistently when you acknowledge that they are different .

00:34:979 (1,1) - Yea, these aren't really supported at all, mapping those 1/4 jumps just feel really overmapped. there are drum hits on these notes like very very very very loud and clear drum hits, not even like the other ones in the intro where it ended up being slightly questionable and i changed it, these DEFINITELY exist and are supported in the music. now, obviously the two blue tick notes you've highlighted shouldnt have any spacing emphasis on them, which i absolutely agree with! thats why it is patterned in a way that puts all the emphasis on 00:35:065 (2,2) - literally all the emphasis in this segment is on these two notes. you could argue the movement between these two notes 00:34:806 (1,1) - is too far but i'd say it is both warranted and necessary given the intensity of the sounds in the segment. to be double sure, i asked multiple people and these sounds 110% exist with drum beats Okay, I can hear them now.

00:38:427 (1,2,1,2) - Really odd that you don't map the white tick considering you could actually map something 1/4 jumpy onto it for emphasis lol. that would feel incredibly overmapped and out of place because the whole of this kiai segment is following the rhythm that culminates in this doubles rhythm, the doubles rhythm which is foreshadowed at 00:34:979 - i will note just for reference
Yea, I suppose my complaint is more that your "double" rhythm is just not the right rhythm choice then. Mapping the white tick is clearly not overmapped, it's the strongest and most audible beat in the sequence. It's only overmapped in the sense that it doesn't follow your doublet rhythm scheme.

00:52:737 (1) - Ca't believe im saying this, but this slider is really undermapped for the density of the rhythms you've been mapping to so far. yes it is, it's supposed to be a hard break in the song's density to provide a small break/buildup which starts here for the new section,
also to follow the massive "flowbreak" in the song itself with this loud jarring sound out of nowhere
Why do you need to include this break/small buildup etc...? You're creating a really big shift in rhythm to suit either a "build up" effect,
that cannot be achieved by a single object alone anyways, or some "flowbreak" to the song, which I really don't understand. Can you at least elaborate on what you mean by a "flowbreak" in the song itself? The jarring sound, I can understand. Having to give up all other rhythms here to emphasize it? That I can't understand so much. It seems like a poor mapping choice to me.

00:57:737 (1,2) - Can you space the two sliders out more? I think its really easy to misread this as 1/4 streams due to how you've utilized 1/4's so far. sure spaced em, spaced them in all of their instances except the back and forth ones at 01:05:151 (1,2) - because they are already quite spaced Good.

01:15:496 (1,2) - You could make these denser too, considering the 1/4's you've been using so far. The shift to such simple sliders is a bit odd. hmmmmm maybe it feels a little odd but i really think these space-y sounds need the long holds, i think having these very simple patterns right before the buildup is also good, this is ok as is imo but i could always change it to circles, i think that the holds just add a better feel
Okay. I can accept this. Build up effect is a reasonable explanation, and stuff like 01:16:875 (1,2,3) - help with the effect.

01:18:772 (1,2,1) - If you had put 01:19:030 (1) - on the white tick and mapped that jump, i would have been perfectly fine with it. Actually I would have said it fit amazingly well here. let me think about that one as you mod the other diffs, i think the current rhythm is exactly what i'm looking for though following the vocal, it feels kind of meme and too sudden for the player to make sure a jump even with that sound on the white tick, thats not in the forefront of the player's mind when they're playing this rhythm imo. if you think i need to space this more to make it easier to read lemme know but i think rn it is good placement + structure + fine to read so i dont wanna move it
Honestly really surprised you decided to completely ignore the sound on 01:18:944 - despite its uniqueness. You mention mapping a lot of other unique sounds in your reply, "spacey" sounds like 01:15:496 (1,2) - 00:52:737 (1) - Jarring sound, etc... It's an okay placement and structure, but one that doesn't seem to follow the song as well as it could.

01:25:582 (2,3) - At least ctrl+g? The flowbreak onto 2 isn't really warranted at all, and I think people are going to play that 1/4 square with at least a bit of rotating movement instead of just aiming at the center. 01:29:634 (1,2,3) - Is much better. on the contrary, in my opinion it is way way way more comfortable and satisfying to play with this being a flowbreak from 1-2, the sudden snap is very crisp and satisfying with the sound and since this entire segment has the same circular directional motion its a very satisfying payoff to the "buildup" of the flow of the entire segment. 1/4 jump patterns work when they are incredibly sharply angled and clear, and i think that making this circular flow as well would lose emphasis from the pattern, and also make it harder to hit for the player
Sharp angle is fine.

01:29:979 (1,1,2,1,2) - This movement is considerably harder than 01:27:220 (1,1,2,1,2) - , With 01:27:220 (1,1,2,1,2) - I can land this mouse-only even lol, because while there is a jump onto the circle, the movement from circle > slider is very smooth. With 01:29:979 (1,1,2,1,2) - though, you are forced to break flow playing the slider ontop of snapping to it. used your suggestion in a tweaked way to fit my structure
Good

This is an idea you can try. Simple flow onto the circle this time, and sharper flow playing the slider

01:30:668 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - Not a good movement imo. There is little to no flow here. The other patterns you used (in this same melody) were a lot better because they promoted angle shifts, but here it's just uh xP... switched it up
Change looks good.

01:47:910 - Not going to map this? ;c or 01:49:289 - ? no cause it doesn't follow the rhythm i'm following throughout the whole segment even though they are delicious drum hits
01:51:875 (3) - Doublet rhythm here. yes however there is a distinct drum hit on each note, i know i just said i've been following the synth the entire section but swapping to the stream here for the drums as they come in gives a nice sense of finality to the map + expresses the end of the song well
Rhythm after the kiai is a bit odd, but manageable, just some parts that felt like they ended up ignoring strong beats. Given how dense this map is, you can always map those beats out in an unemphasized manner and dictate what later you want the player to follow based on your spacing and rhythm choices. imo the rhythm choices in the section after the kiai are consistent and okay, but if you have any specific suggestions regarding this please let me know in the rest of your mod so i can think about it and apply/reply to them

I guess the rhythm you picked after the kiai is alright. Still a bit wonky some places, but your reasoning is fine here.

The kiai is actually quite manageable. There are some places I think are hard to read, but I think anyone who can actually play this diff should have no trouble reading it at least after a 2nd run.

[]

I'll just go through top diff for now and test the waters. Take your time in replying, no rush~ thanks so much, incredibly helpful mod

i made a few minor changes to flow to make everything just a little smoother

hell ya round 1 done bring on monstrata mod part 2 (hopefully)

Irreversible wrote:

Hi! helo

[Easy]

00:05:496 (4) - To soften up the angle a bit, and make it thus easier to play for a beginner, I'd place it somewhere near 480 172. You'd have to readjust things, but it's worth it.
00:08:255 (4) - Same idea as above. fixed both
00:11:358 (1,2) - What do you think about having 2/1 sliders here? Reason would be that the part is about to change, and you could easen up the rhythm a bit, to make 00:12:737 (3) - more special. It would also help calming down the density a bit, since it appears to be slightly high. made the slider 2/1 and changed the pattern a little bit
00:14:806 (2) - Blanket? Or was it not intended? Would be fine too. fixed
00:19:634 (1,2) - That blanket stuff goes with all of those - fix them up if you think you've missed it out, leave it like this if it's inteded to be slightly off. fixed
00:36:186 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - Don't worry - I've just highlighted it up because there seemed to be one flaw within the part: the rhythm density. Please, again refering to above, try to get in at least some more 2/1. It will help easen up the rhythm and be less exhausting for this level. It will also help to get a bit more diversity throughout the parts - I feel like you've mapped everything really similar, which destroys the effect of this song - I think it's pretty diverse, so the map should be diverse too. incorporated 2/1 into the rhythm after the kiai, due to the kiai being more intense i'm keeping the 1/1 there and instead using 2/1 afterwards: a lot of patterns were slightly rearranged to accommodate this
01:22:737 (4,1,2) - This stack might be too confusing for this level. I'd remove it, just to be save. fixed, but i want you to know that it was aboslute hell fixing this
01:27:220 (3) - This, again, for diversity, could be a 2/1 slider. Or somewhere else, I don't mind really - as long as I see improvement in rhythm. i agree that this is good for 2/1 because of the sound, i made this one 2/1 and the other sound thats the same as this one later one 2/1 as well, hopefully that helps with the density/diversity

tl:dr - Try improving the rhythm diversity, so you can get something slightly more interesting, and less exhausting. Map itself was designed fine - apart from the 1-2 stacks which seemed too difficult for my taste. diversified

[Normal]

I don't have problems with this difficulty, but similar to the Easy, I feel like the rhythm could be somewhat more diverse. Please look into it again, and try adding some more 2/1 (not too many, since it's a normal - but however, maybe some interesting sliders would still be interesting!) maybe, because due to the stacks etc., this Normal is rather on the challenging side. I feel like there is no real "break" for the player to get some recovery. added 2/1 to the second after the first kiai where i added it in the Easy: i think this is the most fitting place for 2/1 to be, the other sections seem to have varied enough rhythm with the 1/2 sliders and stacks so hopefully this adds just the right amount of variety to the map

[Hard]

00:28:427 (2) - I'd suggest normal spacing, because there's nothing too outstanding on that beat. I'd make it equal between 1 and 2 and 3. made the distance somewhat even while keeping the structure and the flow i was going for
00:29:289 (1,2) - Is that hitsound intentioanl? It sounds off. fixed, before icon i'll comb through every diff one last time to make sure no hitsounds are out of place
00:55:496 (1,2) - I personally feel like it's too early to have a spaced off rhythm like this. If you could work with repeat sliders, this would be great - otherwise I think that the difficulty curve will be slightly bad here, because you've introduced a lot of new things already (1/4 mainly). changed to a repeat slider and spacing the circle more, hopefully this should be a lot more readable
01:03:082 (3,4,1) - I am pretty sure that people won't be able to tell the difference between those here. If you could somehow about this, it would be great. imo, here the difference in rhythm is pretty clear to the player because 01:03:772 (1,2) - are touching, also it goes from triplet to quad repeat which i think is much less of a readability issue than the rhythms you pointed out later in the map (which im changing). from the fact that these two notes are touching + 00:58:255 (1,2) - the player already played it here so the rhythm should be pretty apparent (its the same thing flipped 180)
01:25:151 (2,3) - Same, this is not readable for this level. agreed, changed all instances of this rhythm
01:30:668 (2,3) - ^. ^
01:41:013 (1) - I am not actually sure if this is unrankable - because of the covered repeat. I'm not sure however, if it actually is covered, so you might wanna recheck that. this isn't covered, the pattern/repeat also isn't confusing because of the structure, but based on purely RC this isn't unrankable iirc unless i'm missing something, i asked around and checked but if worse comes to worse i can change it

tl:dr - Map has got some really creative stuff going! But you have to make sure that everything is readable. The increase in difficulty, concerning the 1/4, is pretty high - so you should not overwhelm the players with different kinds of 1/4. I believe that these ones should be reworked, but I'm sure you can find a solution there. tried to make the 1/4 rhythms more readable and fair to the player: hopefully it is okay! i thought about making an advanced diff for a while but imo this is the closest i can get to fully following the song at it's most basic rhythmic level and an advanced would be kind of the same as Normal

[Insane]

00:13:427 (1,2,3,4) - this sounded really off and felt awkward to play. Please listen to the song again and try to match the placed rhythm more fitting. i don't really understand because the rhythm is the same as it is in all the others diffs: the instrument is 7 1/4 notes, which are supported by the drums at 00:13:772 (2,3,4) - so that is why i made it clickable there in comparison to 00:13:427 (1) - which is more of a building sound: maybe i am misunderstanding what you mean

Hmm, now comes a part which I'm not too sure about. I'm speaking of 00:26:358 (1,2,3,4) - etc. Playing triplets of four (quadruples?) appears interesting - if it happens once or twice. But considering that it happens multiple times now, followed by a lot of doublets, I think this is a true challenge. Especially parts like these 00:28:944 (5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - appear over the top for now. I would suggest that you try to replace some of those with a 1/4 slider instead - for example all these 00:29:289 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - . It would still give a similar effect, yet is way easier to play - and i think this would be a good idea to balance it out a bit. Could I ask you to consider this properly and try to balance it? that makes sense, i changed 2 of them to sliders, to make the rhythm less clickably dense but still fitting, please let me know if this is sufficient, this new pattern seems fair to me for the player

Loving the kiai - but got 2 little adjustments, or 3. Can you imagine having 01:22:220 (3) - those placed in a more intuitive way? Having it placed at a point like 210 16 would make it more easier and more fluent to play. This goes for 01:24:978 (3) - 01:27:048 (5) - 01:38:082 (3) - . I tried figuring why you did it that way, but I couldn't really find a pattern so I assume it's ok to suggest it. sure, i was afraid about placing it here for fear it wouldn't be readable but i can see how it is more intuitive this way, it doesnt really change the flow either so i changed all

tl:dr - Nerfing the rhythm in this part would already fix the problem. It's ok to have the rhyhtm per se - just the fix would make it more approachable. hopefully the changes made were sufficient!

[fanzhen's Another]

<3 agree

[Extra]

Ok, I think there won't be any spread-fixing approaches anymore now, haha. i hope!

00:13:427 - I think leaving out this beat would increase the tension in a positive way. i can see how this would increase the tension, but i think that the current rhythm is a lot better for playability + i think leaving out the beat would really confuse the player as 00:13:599 (2) - is about as prominent as 00:13:427 (1): if i instead started the rhythm on 00:13:513 - it would be awkward to acc + play because it wouldn't be fair for the player to expect for the rhythm to start there based on the sound
00:25:668 (2) - I am aware of the ocnsistency of the placement of this object in general,. but I think that more spacing would make it more intuitive. Give it a try and see how it works - that goes for all parts like this. 00:31:185 (2) - i want there to be next to no aim difficulty in this section due to the rhythm: this kind of spacing is consistent in both the structure and the previous spacing in the section before it 00:14:806: after playing around with different higher spaced patterns i think it is better to keep it like this to keep the expanding spacing for each pattern, but if it's a super big deal i can just space it out a little bit it's not a hard fix
00:27:220 (1,2) - I just feel like this kind of repeat sliders overwrite the song in not a good way. Don't you think you could come up with something more interesting? 00:32:737 (1,2) - here too. The hitsounding doen't really fit either, does it? The song doesn't go that ham. the most prominent sound to me here is the constant high pitched 1/4, that's what the repeat sliders are mapped to: i think that the repeats are fitting for the music and also allow a nice break from the dense rhythms both times they occur
01:00:927 (5,1) - Avoid this tiny overlap? Don't know why it's here. this overlap is here for 2 reasons: the first is to make sure the 1/4 jump spacing is fair because spacing it fully would make it look like 1/2 with how low spacing all the 1/2 has been so far, and second is because 01:00:755 (3,4,5) - is exactly halfway up 00:59:892 (1) - and 01:01:013 (1) - is on the end of 00:59:892 (1) - so it is for structure and consistency, which i think justifies that it looks just a tiny bit silly

tl:dr - not much to fix tbh i hope my explanations were sufficient for this diff: if you think there is anything pressing that absolutely needs changing or that my reasoning isn't strong enough please just let me know and i can reconsider or explain my perspective more

[Expert]

00:02:048 (1) - Come ooon you can do better blankets. U RITE, fixed i hope weird shape D:
00:02:048 (1,1,2,3,4,1) - In my personal opinion you shouldn't spam the rhythm here. There will be enough density later on - I suggest thy oufollow the vocals - mainly 00:02:565 (3,4,1) - . You'd have to redo the hitsounding slightly, to make it fit, but I think it'll be for the better. made the first two a slider to emphasize the last 3 notes more
00:58:255 (1,2,3,4,1) - That seemed.. somehow really difficult, no? lol I haven't encountered something like this in the map before and it does a ppear a bit spiky. I mean having it in the kiai is ok, since everything is difficult. hmmmmmmmm.... i can understand where you're coming from, but i think it's important to have this pattern the way it is in the map: i could make it a normal square but it fits the sound very well + prepares the player for the flow that's coming later in the map, i can understand how it's the first time it happens in the map, but it comes from a completely "cold open" with the hold slider at 00:57:910 (1) - and playtesters didn't seem to struggle with it particularly on sightread: if anything i will just change it to be a normal square but the pattern is super fitting with the sound imo so i am reluctant to change it for now

[I. HS-EX]

00:02:392 (1,2,1,2,1) - Same as in EX imo because of the higher difficulty + the patterning, this is a lot more fitting and the pattern works well with the sound: this is my reasoning for keeping it clickable in the top diff as well, but if necessary i can change it, i just think this emphasis works with the sounds a lot better than it did in Expert
00:13:427 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - Same problem actually. Sometimes I just feel like less is more, do you know where I'm coming from? It would make the map so much more interesting. i think it is okay here as the sounds are very clear and there is a hard stop on 00:13:944 (3) - which i am also going to add to the top diff for consistency (since its a 1/4 slider rn in the top diff): this hard stop makes the rhythm + pattern super interesting and crisp to play
00:14:806 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - omg.. this is incredimentally fast.. loljk cool idea with the build up haha it gets fast... eventually
00:32:565 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4) - You should be careful wit hthe hitsounds. Sometimes you place heavy hitsounds for parts which actually deserved less. Having objects here is perfectly fine - I just wouldn't accentuate them like dat. i will ask around and get opinions on how to fix because i am not the best hitsounded, i might lower hitsound volume here? is that a solution? fanzhen did the hitsounds i just adapted them to the harder diffs so i am trying not to mess too much with his hitsounding
00:36:186 (1) - let's start the party LOL omg i love fast sliders ZOOM
01:19:979 (1) - Ok I see what you did there, but I'd suggest a 1/16 slider with maybe 5.0x SV. The effect would be so cooler LOL Maybe not that excessive but you should see where I'm coming frmo. for me, i think the slow slider before really really fast sliders coming in the kiai is cooler: if i make it a fast slider it'll seem cheap and random for the player who will 100% miss the slider end

crazyyy thank you

[unhinged]

00:02:392 (1,2,1,2) - Same as always. this pattern is kind of in the middle of the one from expert and the one from hi speed eXtReMe for me, instead of changing the rhythm i buffed the spacing between 00:02:479 (2,1) - to emphasize the vocal sounds more like you wanted: hopefully this is a good compromise solution

I honestly don't have something to say in this map - to me it seems reasonably mapped. I feel like if I mentioned something in the earlier diffs, it applies to this one as well - so please give your best to make the fixes consistent with your map. consistency'd (hopefully)

Irreversible wrote:

Hi! hello owo

[Lolirii's Collab Expert]
01:00:237 (4,5) - That stack seems unnecessarily mean.. don't you think you'd want to keep the flow you have so far and somehow get rid off it? I wanted the stack because of the stopping effect, and because 01:00:410 (5) - is a slider players shouldn't make a mess if they overstream.
01:01:186 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - omg lol, very creative Thanks uwu
01:05:755 (4,5) - Same. I do know why you did it, but I think it's not a very good solution to this. People will probably spam over it and will be left with "why did i 100 or miss here" Same reason as 01:00:237 (4,5) -
01:10:324 (2) - NC Fixed
01:19:634 (1,2,1) - While I adored the part before, I think this pattern in general doesn't fit. 01:19:806 (2) - is so different to 01:19:634 (1) - , and thus imo shouldn't be copied. I'm sure you can come up with something more creative, considering what you've pulled off so far. wobble impact
01:32:048 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the ds here looks somehow weird.. intentional? I think I wanted to decrease the spacing before but apparently ignored it later on. Fixed lol

woww i loved it lol, but i don't even know the mappers <3 from mentorship program

Shiirn wrote:

One of the biggest things you need to look out for when taking liberties with the rhythm is staying consistent within your own theme; even moreso when you have a song like polygon, that's inherently unpredictable and has many changes in rhythm.

That said:
[unhinged]

1. 00:27:910 (1,2,3) - This is fine, but it just makes 00:29:289 (1,2) - play awkwardly. I really suggest making the 1/4 sliders into full 1/2s to maintain a more consistent rhythm, especially since you're ignoring the strong beats for the weaker ones (which are admittedly more interesting). If there's a problem with skipping over 00:29:634 - , remember that you skipped over 00:28:255 - just fine. okay so to explain: 00:29:289 - this is emphasizing the high pitched double rhythm that is also supported by the synth and later the drums (hence the change from sliders to doubles halfway through) as seen in here ---> 00:29:289 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - now with that in mind, 00:27:910 (1,2,3) - is following the low pitched synth here which is most prominent: these two patterns have nothing to do with each other and do not make each other 'awkward' as much as a normal 1/4 slider makes a 1/2 slider near it uncomfortable, its technical and reading based but certainly not uncomfortable, this part was changed from making 00:29:289 (1,2) - clickable previously, and playtesters have all agreed this new rhythm + patterning is quite comfortable
2. 00:31:358 (1,2,3) - Cool, you enhance that triple in the backgrou- 00:32:048 (1,2) - there's literally nothing here. I can understand filling in the song to make your rhythms more consistent but if the song itself does nothing at all to even hint that you should fill it in, you probably shouldn't because then you'd be mapping it wrong. The same actually goes for 00:32:565 (2,1,2,3) - the hitsounding makes this seem like something it isn't. you're adding a rhythm with hitsounding that you're not actually emphasizing because it doesn't actually exist.. If that isn't deceptive to the player, I don't know what is. there are drums there you should try and give it a listen on 50% and see if you can hear it better lol... i don't know what else to say other than they are a slightly lower pitch than last time so i can understand if you have trouble hearing them but they not only exist but deserved to be clickable for both rhythm consistency and proper emphasis of the sound
3. 00:45:496 (1,2) - I wonder if you've had this playtested. Due to how you space out the patterns, 90% of players capable of playing this map will always read this as one of the insane 1/4 jumps. Can't you move it around like 00:46:703 (1,2) - ? Change the angles and the spacing to make it clear that this isn't a crazy 1/4 jump. Part of it comes from the fact that there feels like there should be a click 00:45:582 - here due to how you've usually mapped the song, but there isn't. (same with 00:42:824 - but that's a different problem) i can see how this might appear to be 'unreadable' or unreasonable but it really isn't, literally no one has ever misread this as 1/4 because it's very very very very clear due to 00:44:806 (1,2,1,2) - that is isn't: the 1/4 sliders reset the reading of the player and allow them to read this easily as 1/2 + the flow is very cool as it and changing it or buffing the spacing would make it feel off,
   you'll also note the spaced 1/4 directly after this is spaced less in order to be readable
4. 00:50:151 (2,3,1) - 00:50:668 (1,2,3) - yeah uh some how, some way, these should have the same numbering in combo patterning because hahahaha yeah.... for readability! note the no nc between 00:49:979 (1,2) - which is consistent: just because it isn't NC'd to accommodate the way you're thinking of the patterns doesn't mean it's inconsistent
5. 01:00:582 (1,2,3) - There's literally nothing here to justify such high spacing. It's inconsistent with your own patterning, there's nothing in the song, and there's no noticeable or feasible reason for it to be this large. the emphasis on these notes is much more in the music than the other's around it?? the triplet click is much stronger and more emphasized in the song than anything else here
6. 01:07:048 (3) - Should have some form of snare or clap hitsound. added! it was missing a whistle though
7. 01:45:928 (2,3) - Don't you think these should be made more separate from the 1 due to how the 2,3, are on different instruments from the 1? i hear it more as there are 3 notes there of the instrument that you hear at 2/3 but the drum hit just covers it, since you can hear the beginning of the sound at 1 before the drum beat covers it
8. 01:48:686 (2,3) - ^idk it's consistent i guess
9. 01:52:910 (2,3,4,5) - Yeah i can see the purpose of "Final buzz of the map, it's 1/6 instead of 1/4 to be harder" and i can tell you that's bullshit just make it 1/8 sliders or something please. This isn't "a final challenge" it's just a slap in the face. ok i will make 1/8 buzz slider but i think you're kind of looking at this wrong, but it had been suggested before so i think its a good idea to make it a buzz: this isn't difficult at all for the player to play and feels quite cathartic lol it's not unfair or anything it just felt fitting to me, but since there was so many complaint about it i will change

The kiai was better than I expected but it still screams out "This is a map made for watching high-level players play it, not to be played itself" and that always churns my guts. Sure, you reach a broader audience by making it more fun for the 99% to watch, but if you're spurning your target audience for their audience, that doesn't bode well. something to understand that may be a somewhat foreign concept in mapping: i actually made this map for myself, as an expression of how i felt the music should be represented, which i know is kind of a crazy idea in 2017

this map isn't going to be pp for anyone, i didn't map it for a crazy cookiezi play, i mapped it because i love this song: if i really wanted to map this just for attention why would i spend 3 months making like 9 diffs all with different concepts when i could have just made a 6 diff set with all gds

the playability of this map has been more than proven, not only by over 50 playtesters (seeing as for a while i had a hard time finding a time where people WEREN'T playing the map a month ago), but by the fact that i can play it myself and fundamentally understand the kind of flow that is comfortable to a high level tech player simply by being a high level tech player


edit: why kancolle tag bg

Shiirn wrote:

That said, now people can call me an autist for writing an essay about why I think a mapper should change two notes in a circle clicking game and how I'm an elitist asshole for trying to explain my view.

Shiirn wrote:

stuff

Irreversible wrote:

[Bonzi's Extreme]

00:00:324 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3) - Sorry, but this is heavily overmapped. I don't disagree with certain accentuating objects, but this seems to much considering even further that this is only the intro. I don't hear anything on 00:01:617 (6) - etc. yeah i agree, let's try something else i guess
00:02:392 (1,2,1,2) - Check what I've wrote about that in the other diffs, please. As i see it, there's not much of a clear difference between vocals/non-vocals (at least until you go to the editor and listen at 50%), so there's no real need to lower intensity just for that, imo.
01:31:358 (1) - Let's talk about these for a second. The first part of the kiai apperaed fine for me, because you are really speeded up, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to do those streams ( I mean it's really difficult but if you accelereate enough, it should feel fine to play). However, these slow you down completely and the distance between 01:31:617 (4,1) - is insane. I am actually not really supporting those, because I feel like this feels terribly off to play, considering how fluent your map was so far. I suggest that you add a 1/4 slider instead of 01:31:530 (3,4) - , so that the player can go to the next patterns fluently. 01:34:117 (1) - Same in this and somehow 01:36:875 (1) - ,although here you have acceleration again in some part. 01:39:633 (1) - Here its somehow ok again.. I'd consider it for the first two, even tho it breaks the patterns a bit, but for the playabilitys sake I think it's needed. about that, lets just say... uhh... The 2nd kiai half is the result of a little something.
anyway, about the distance between 01:31:617 (4,1) - and similiars: i don't know man, i feel like doing what you said would pretty much take away a big chunk of the sense of difficulty this section has, since then, compared to 1st half it would become basically a cakewalk.
Anyway, i agree about the distance beign a little too insane, so i've moved around some objects a bit to tone it down.
01:53:168 - Add a circle? It seems not finished without it. Feels off however you place it, it's just very easy to misread that way. It's ok with either a slider or just nothing, a circle just doesn't do it imo

I really like the concept of this map - it shows the variety of this song greatly. Please do me a favor and remap the first part and think about the second part in the insane again tho. I don't really think the second half of the kiai is really a problem as a whole,even if it's basically the result of me trying not to get my diff higher than kaifin's.The intro was a part that i mostly overlooked, i payed little attention to it and failed to notice that it's mostly random clicking and trying not to get a 100, the idea seemed cool but meh, too bad. Thanks for the mod!

Einja wrote:

this is fucking amazing

axion v2 lol

Irreversible wrote:

[Lolirii's Collab Expert]

00:20:324 (1,2,1,2,3,1,2,1,2) - I don't quite understand the rhythm, I mean I like 00:20:324 (1,2,1,2) - , but why is 00:21:013 (1,2,1,2) - so fundamentally different? i made 00:21:013 (1) - a 1/4 slider to make the rhythm consistent and slightly adjusted 00:21:186 (2) - to compensate for the new pattern

LowComboFC wrote:

@loli 00:37:910 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - u screwed this stream up lol, why is there emphasis on the blue tick? either emphasize it 00:38:255 (5) - here or even 00:38:168 (4) - here if u want to follow the sound but the current way doesn't really follow anything fixed it

edit: also here 00:43:427 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - fixed it

F1r3tar wrote:

spread would sound more cool if you renamed Bonzi's diff to "Bonzi's Ultra"

byfar wrote:

btw get gud folks! Haha

Kaifin wrote:

this map will only ever die if it hits the loved section