too long; didn't write:

I like the DT PP feature. Anything that allows better differentiation between player skill levels is a good thing when considering a ranking system. The caveat being that since DT bonus is reliant on SR, SR being broken as all hell means that DT will make those flaws that much more apparent.

And, as someone who'd been here since day 1:

-Kamikaze- wrote:

This 3 years old sentence still fits perfectly to this day and that says a lot.

This.

I think it's a good idea, this way, 4k players have a chance to shine on the ranking ladder, and it makes "boring" maps (low star maps, low bpm maps, etc. Everyone have a different opinion of what it makes it "Boring") challenging again.

The bad side, it's that the PP system is broken of course, but also because of that, the greediness that every player has, it's what makes fun to rank again.

Still, most of the places every player have, it's going to stay relatively the same, unless you are kind of a DT monster or ET.

I started at 2.4k when the DT PP came up, and now im 2.3k, so there is no much difference.

But you know that ranking at the current system is only about speed/vibro/stamina, both for 4k and 7k? Its not good idea and for sure not like this because another aspects of the game like LNs/acc/gimmicks means nothing.

artaban wrote:

I think it's a good idea, this way, 4k players have a chance to shine on the ranking ladder, and it makes "boring" maps (low star maps, low bpm maps, etc. Everyone have a different opinion of what it makes it "Boring") challenging again.

this perceived mentality is what is ruining the game. there are plenty of low-star maps that are actually challenging, but people won't play them because if rank matters to them, it doesn't give them the output they'd want in terms of PP. it's why everyone flocks to the same high level maps to increase their performance points in the first place.

4k-only players don't deserve to shine a huge amount on the performance point boards at this point in time: until ratings are separated by per-key, they rightfully -should- be lower than the players who are higher up. until then, this just continues to be an even stronger highlight of the issue overall.

Halogen- wrote:

this perceived mentality is what is ruining the game.

How is it ruining the game? Everyone plays the game for their own reasons, it's not like what that one player does effects how you play or the reasons you play. Just because the user decided to group lower star ratings for an example doesn't mean they don't play lower star maps that are challenging. Just because one person has an opinion about what they think of DT being ranked doesn't mean it's "Ruining the game" If it affects you that much to the point where you aren't having fun than just quit.

Halogen- wrote:

this perceived mentality is what is ruining the game.

While I somewhat agree with you, this "mentality" is altogether subjective as some players (including myself) enjoy the process of climbing through the leader-boards to get higher and higher ranks. But I wish this process didn't have to come at the cost of maps made to break the SR such as the shittiest map ever ranked blastix, but then again, this is also my subjective opinion, as others can seemly enjoy the difficulty these maps present.

Halogen- wrote:

4k-only players don't deserve to shine a huge amount on the performance point boards at this point in time

This I completely agree with, as most 4k players can't play other keymodes and shouldn't be anywhere near the top in the overall rankings that combines all keymodes together. If an extremely good 4k player is around the same ranking as a player who can play all keymodes at a slightly lower level, that isn't fair to the player who can play all keymodes, as their skill set is more varied.

Guess I'll throw in my 2 cents about this.

I think it's obvious that the majority of the people that unironically enjoy this abysmal implementation are the people that enjoy the thought of having more pp, the people that gain more recognition out of it, or the people that have no other skillsets than mashing through 7* maps. Let's just clarify that pp means absolutely nothing in this game atm, it doesn't reflect on your skill level, and you shouldn't be concerned about it right now. If you really enjoy having a nice big number next to a rank, go to ripple, you'll really feel better about yourself there. They shouldn't have even implemented any bonuses for pp until they fix the star rating algorithm. I don't even think HT should give pp for any game modes either, but that's another story...

This isn't a pp issue so much, it's the shit star rating system that ruins this more imo. This star rating algorithm has been around for how long now and they still haven't realized that it's broken to shit? I get that you genuinely don't care about this game peppy and that you'd rather have your people work on other useless projects, but at least make it seem like you trying, man. You guys impress me by making this game worse somehow, and I honestly didn't think that was possible. And to answer peoples' questions about Mina fixing it, Mina's not gonna submit all of his hard work to the other "developers" that will mooch off of it for free, because that's basically what they wanted him to do. So don't expect him to work with them because it's not going to happen.

By implementing this dt pp system, you're creating a cancerous meta for one trick pony players that play for 90-95's on maps they can barely play the maps in the first place, and it's supposedly worth giving more pp for? Fuck off. This is probably the worst thing I've seen on o!m yet and anyone who says otherwise doesn't have a clue about what's going on about this game. No, I'm not being some pessimistic Stepmania elitist fanboy. I'm being an observant individual that sees there is something wrong with this game.

This game would be better off not even having a pp system imo. Maybe people would actually learn a thing or two about this game instead of playing the same garbage ranked maps over and over again.

/salt

EtienneXC wrote:

If you really enjoy having a nice big number next to a rank, go to ripple, you'll really feel better about yourself there.

Again like everyone else that makes this point how does this affect you? People playing for their own reasons doesn't affect you at all as this is a single player game. Just because some people like to have a number beside their name as a sense of accomplishment doesn't mean anything. All that is going to happen is your rank is going to go down but since you don't care about rank anyways why make this point? The ranking system wasn't developed on ripple it was developed on osu!

EtienneXC wrote:

I don't even think HT should give pp for any game modes either,

This is something I actually agree with. HT is a joke of a mod and takes no skill to use across any mode and the fact that it can give such high amounts of pp with such little skill needed is pretty annoying.

EtienneXC wrote:

This star rating algorithm has been around for how long now and they still haven't realized that it's broken to shit?

If you have an idea on how to fix the star rating than please enlighten everyone. All I see is people complaining about it over and over and I get it's broken as fuck but no one has been coming up with any solutions for this at all. Make a feature request and if people like your idea than they will vote it up.


/pepper

Cawub wrote:

If you have an idea on how to fix the star rating than please enlighten everyone.

Algorithm based on pattern difficulty in different skillsets with a global indicator of the generale difficulty for example, like Mina is developping for SM, and It's already working way better than PPs. But, like Etienne said, he won't care about osu!, and currents osu! developpers don't want to make something complicated right? It's easier to just make the PPs system dumber and dumber.

Also, by saying HT is a joke you are basicly making fun of yourself because people can HT for the same reason they want to DT. Like you said, "Everyone plays the game for their own reasons, it's not like what that one player does effects how you play or the reasons you play."

while i do agree that
"why don't you guys just maek pp better since you guys keep complaining asdfasdf etc"

Thing is, it's not that simple to "maek pp better" or "SR more accurate"
We could get some people to help but it looks like the devs here are more into pressing random buttons to see how it affects mania
Really brings out the "we need help on osu!mania"

I'd be fine if DT was declared to mine more data to improve SR but it seems like not

I don't get the action of including DT if all it does is emphasize and make inaccuracies in rating the higher-end difficulties of mania maps even more significant

I'd be fine if like, no one touches this pp thing, ever, roll it back and though we still have relatively ok Performance Points ranking, it doesn't go haywire until after like 10k or something

(Some guy is probably going to come here and say this is just an experiment and whatever bla bla yada yada (expected))

Honestly the only way to get them to even pay attention is if the players develop a good sustaining SR/PP system that checks out and is widely agreed upon. The way I see it is that they are too busy wrapped up in doing other tasks and just throwing some random unfinished unpolished features out into osu!
Which is why I say if players get something even close to acceptable that maybe the devs will take a look at it and help refine it etc etc.

EtienneXC wrote:

This game would be better off not even having a pp system imo. Maybe people would actually learn a thing or two about this game instead of playing the same garbage ranked maps over and over again.

/salt

I mean it's pretty all right if you only play unranked for a majority of the time. Mostly Stepmania pack converts.

There's some real good charts though that I want in stepmania from osu unranked and vice versa.

Oh and actual rates for every .1 interval would be nice so you don't have to look for weird shit like "Over the fullereneshift 1.1" and can just 1.1 the "kom susser tod" file.

Halogen- wrote:

this perceived mentality is what is ruining the game. there are plenty of low-star maps that are actually challenging, but people won't play them because if rank matters to them, it doesn't give them the output they'd want in terms of PP. it's why everyone flocks to the same high level maps to increase their performance points in the first place.

Don't get me wrong Halogen-, I enjoy so much to play challenging maps (for my skill), I dont care if it doesn't give any pp.

Maps like Parachor's Finger VIP or NaxelCL's Brynhildr in the darkness (7k MX) as an example, I still play them aiming for an S, just for it's challenge. I know there is a lot of maps that are almost even played, like 8k maps, but I still like them, the thing is that, most of the 4k 4* ish maps are really easy, and DT gives them a new and challenging way to play them, but now with a little motivation that gives pp.

EtienneXC wrote:

Let's just clarify that pp means absolutely nothing in this game atm, it doesn't reflect on your skill level, and you shouldn't be concerned about it right now.

That's also true, for example, im at 2.3k rank, but I know some players from 11k rank that are better than me at 7k (my main key mode). But as a "new" player, PP really motivates me to play better, and the thing that DT started to give PP, it really motivated me to play DT and I started to play even better than before, and I know it's a kinda mediocre way of thinking, since if you really want to improve, PP as a reward doesn't really mean anything, but still, anyone can find motivation in anything they feel ok with.

Evening wrote:

Thing is, it's not that simple to "maek pp better" or "SR more accurate"
We could get some people to help but it looks like the devs here are more into pressing random buttons to see how it affects mania
Really brings out the "we need help on osu!mania"

I still think the best way to fix SR is that every player give an aprox. rate before they submit it, and then when it gets modded and beyond, the modders decided manually the SR of a song, but thats something I dont really know how would it work.

artaban wrote:

I still think the best way to fix SR is that every player give an aprox. rate before they submit it, and then when it gets modded and beyond, the modders decided manually the SR of a song, but thats something I dont really know how would it work.

Since everyone finds different patterns more challenging, this would never work. Since SR means pretty much nothing, I think the best system would be to show what patterns the song contains and how heavy these patterns are scattered throughout the song. I doubt this would ever be implemented but it'd be interesting to see.

EtienneXC wrote:

I get that you genuinely don't care about this game peppy and that you'd rather have your people work on other useless projects, but at least make it seem like you trying, man. You guys impress me by making this game worse somehow, and I honestly didn't think that was possible.

Most of the stuff you said I agree, but this is an over reaction. I've been following the game's developement progress on Discord and it's not that they don't care. It's that nobody cares enough to accelerate developement. The client is fucked. The web is fucked. The pp is fucked. The SR is fucked. Peppy's decision was to burn it all to the ground and start over from scratch. It's been a long 2 years, but he and some 6-8 other devs who are working on everything are almost there. The game is barely receiving updates, so the best they can do is knock out things many players asked for that is easy to implement. Then everybody expects fixes immediately when that doesn't go well, but they have shit to do. So don't offer players new features and have them wait or throw something up in the air for players to spend time with while they work on completing everything? It's justifiable when peppy says to go fuck yourself because they are going as fast as they can given their manpower. What can they do?

EtienneXC wrote:

anyone who says otherwise doesn't have a clue about what's going on about this game.

I have to agree that I don't think anyone on the dev team currently will come up with a good formula for SR. It won't happen unless they played VRSG and know what it feels to play VRSG. I'll give you that.

pp = skill

@cuppp i love you

just try to get used to it . that's all xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxD

Cuppp wrote:

pp = skill

btw HEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ET MAPPER

ppy said in a tweet he'd be kinda cutting pp in half just to align it with other modes

Soul Evans wrote:

ppy said in a tweet he'd be kinda cutting pp in half just to align it with other modes

i guess in his mind proportioning everything in half means that the issue is half as shitty, seems legit

EtienneXC wrote:

This game would be better off not even having a pp system imo. Maybe people would actually learn a thing or two about this game instead of playing the same garbage ranked maps over and over again.

/salt

before they're changing to ppv2 (old DT system) and ppv3 (before DT system right now)

(some old player mania maybe still remember it, well more like they're changing pp system hence no ranks available)

______

BTT :
travel back 1k rank still on-going.

now that a year has passed since this shitstorm how do you guys feel about this subject?

I rarely play pp maps, even ranked maps. So.... it doesn't effect me either way

still dumb still hate it

Well, if they fix the star rating, then I am fine with it (although I am at a disadvantage, being a slow player).