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how do you guys think about new DT system ?

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juankristal

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
You can just change scroll speed to 1 and profit? I dont think the AR thing makes sense in general, in mania you manipulate the scroll of stuff in nomod so it should give more PP if you use 40 scroll speed with you arguments.

EDIT: Also is not like the density are the same. Mania clearly has a lot more stuff to do in terms of density, it just requires not aiming.
ikzune
as others have said, changing how scores scale based on the total score or total accuracy is probably the best as a bandaid while we wait for someone or a group of people who are ready to increase the accuracy of the star rating system
Topic Starter
moni

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
try out mania man !
o x

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
I don't see why you keep comparing mania to other modes...it isn't the same at all. If I were to compare Taiko to CTB then HDFL shouldn't be readable on CTB because in Taiko its impossible to read as all the objects are hidden. And how about combo bomus? Shouldn't CTB stop it's combo bonus at 200 like taiko? See what I mean it's really not relevant at all. These are different modes with different scoring and pp is calculated differently across all modes. Sure to players new to mania it seems like it's broken being able to change scroll speed but when you get to playing it you will notice it changes nothing about how you play. In lots of situations lower scroll makes it impossible to read patterns where higher scroll makes it easier as you just rely on reactions. If changing the scroll speed makes mania so easy then you should have no problem playing it right? :P
ggsnipess

moni wrote:

try out mania man !
jesus christ dude he has a family
Dez_old_1
I don't mind it, I think this is a good idea at least, since this increases the amount of maps we can play and get pp from. Also it's fun to see top players push themselves to new limits, such as jhlee'0133s ascension to heaven play yesterday.

sincerely, a pp addict.
Seiryuu

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
Whoa dude nice joke you really got us there!





Oh, it isn't a joke?
Tifyron
SR should really have been reworked before a change like this was put in.

If for some odd reason this is kept as is at least put it on separate ranks so it doesn't completely invalidate acc play.
-Konner-

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now.
By this logic, why am i not a top tier player?????? :thinking:
tsusai
i think this new system so cool, but not after i found out that it multiple PP 2.5.
for newbie mania player like me, without this new system its hard to climb to top performance leaderboard, now the difficulty insanely increased.
better revert it.
blazziken_old

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
Nice bait
PouletFurtif

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
n1
yetii

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
can't tell if serious or actually stupid
ReTLoM

Yetified wrote:

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
can't tell if serious or actually stupid

he has 40PP in Mania OFC he is serious cause he dont even know about the difference (there is non) of BPM scaled or Fixed you can use F3 and F4 on both to archive the exact same speed such wow :)
Meme

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
we should swap names
Edgar_Figaro

Cawub wrote:

And how about combo bomus? Shouldn't CTB stop it's combo bonus at 200 like taiko?
Btw Taiko point combo bonus stops at 100 not 200. Kinda similar to how Mania score V2 stopped the combo bonus at 400.
o x
close enough, was just making a point.
Wh1teh

Valedict

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
Abraxos
I guess at least he tried - no need to shit on him too hard
Besides, you can already see his inexperience in the mode

Shoegazer wrote:

abraker wrote:

A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.

This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?
Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.

(I'm currently fiddling with some numbers to properly scale StrainBase vs. SR and also StrainBase% and score, it looks fine for now but I probably need some practical tests first too)
Can we direct our attention to this
Full Tablet

Shoegazer wrote:

abraker wrote:

A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.

This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?
Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.

(I'm currently fiddling with some numbers to properly scale StrainBase vs. SR and also StrainBase% and score, it looks fine for now but I probably need some practical tests first too)
StrainBase% vs Score formula should be dependent on the map.

For example:

Map A: A Marathon map that is relatively easy for the most part, except for 4 hard sections that have about 10% of the notes in total.
Map B: A cut of the previous map, only taking one of the hard sections.

Because most of Map A is easy, it's easy to get a relatively high score (~900k), but getting more than that requires much more skill, since it requires playing the hard parts properly; getting a near-perfect score is very hard.

In Map B, getting 900K requires considerably more skill than in map A (no easy parts to get easy score on), but getting a near-perfect score is slightly easier than in Map A. Getting a very low score shouldn't be rated high, since the map is so short it's likely to hit a relatively big portion of the notes by lucky mashing.

The score vs pp curve of the maps could look like this:
EYA-
I like it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Erlkonig

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
This is actually the most effective and sensible way to go at it and should be implemented immediately are u guys memeing
Kamikaze

Erlkonig wrote:

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
This is actually the most effective and sensible way to go at it and should be implemented immediately are u guys memeing
ReTLoM
Im done i think people like those Two just inside of the stuff are one of the major Point wy mania cant move forward! at least i got a few requests to help people with o2jam xD im not alone under a bunch of asians any more :3
Shoegazer

Full Tablet wrote:

For example:

Map A: A Marathon map that is relatively easy for the most part, except for 4 hard sections that have about 10% of the notes in total.
Map B: A cut of the previous map, only taking one of the hard sections.

Because most of Map A is easy, it's easy to get a relatively high score (~900k), but getting more than that requires much more skill, since it requires playing the hard parts properly; getting a near-perfect score is very hard.

In Map B, getting 900K requires considerably more skill than in map A (no easy parts to get easy score on), but getting a near-perfect score is slightly easier than in Map A. Getting a very low score shouldn't be rated high, since the map is so short it's likely to hit a relatively big portion of the notes by lucky mashing.

The score vs pp curve of the maps could look like this:
That's the best way to go if SR isn't fixed, yeah. I assumed that the spikiness will be accommodated for in a future revision of SR and the PP formula will be modified in response to that, which is why I didn't consider it.
yetii

Full Tablet wrote:

Shoegazer wrote:

Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.

(I'm currently fiddling with some numbers to properly scale StrainBase vs. SR and also StrainBase% and score, it looks fine for now but I probably need some practical tests first too)
StrainBase% vs Score formula should be dependent on the map.

For example:

Map A: A Marathon map that is relatively easy for the most part, except for 4 hard sections that have about 10% of the notes in total.
Map B: A cut of the previous map, only taking one of the hard sections.

Because most of Map A is easy, it's easy to get a relatively high score (~900k), but getting more than that requires much more skill, since it requires playing the hard parts properly; getting a near-perfect score is very hard.

In Map B, getting 900K requires considerably more skill than in map A (no easy parts to get easy score on), but getting a near-perfect score is slightly easier than in Map A. Getting a very low score shouldn't be rated high, since the map is so short it's likely to hit a relatively big portion of the notes by lucky mashing.

The score vs pp curve of the maps could look like this:

Combine this with the SR pp rewards spread April put on twitter and it should be big step into the right direction
Redon
Yuudachi-kun

Redon wrote:

You guys all seem to assume there are people in charge of mania development who are interested in putting actual effort into improving the mode in ways that don't involve porting over ideas from standard
I love you
Frustration

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
why isn't this thread closed already
Cuber

Redon wrote:

You guys all seem to assume there are people in charge of mania development who are interested in putting actual effort into improving the mode in ways that don't involve porting over ideas from standard


TBH I sorta understand the staff's want to make mania more like other modes, it is all one game after all. Peppy said this in a tweet IIRC.

they're just wrong lol
ArcherLove
ng? it's osu!mania you know? what's so weird?
Erlkonig
I'm sure the guy who said

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.
was joking too, no one can be that dumb. Since dev team doesn't listen to anyone and are bent on making this mode something like std on keys why are you guys still trying to keep on with the salty attitude.
Kamikaze
I don't think being agressive about the dt is going to bring anything to those calling mania dead or straight up losing shit over it.
But at the same time, I gotta be honest, I don't expect any changes to be made, much less actually good ones.


This 3 years old sentence still fits perfectly to this day and that says a lot.
Pinecone

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.
what are you doing
ArcherLove
hihi pinecone

also guys, if you want to be heared by dev, might as well post at reddit? seems like it will get /more/ attention than at this thread too
Tidek

juankristal wrote:

EDIT: Adding HR wont be even close to help this, as DT+HR plays will just be the same. Sure, it will be harder to smash into DT plays but still, it will just make it worse.
Not really, with fixed HR and fixed PP rewarding from SR, doing a DT + HR plays will be incredible hard even for top tier players, because of 2 things:

1. Passing a map will be already impossible for most of the players (HP10 on every map)
2. Even if you pass a map, doing a high score with that combination of mods will be extremely hard because of really tight timing windows.

"Farming" PP with that combination of mods will be nearly impossible on harder maps.
o x

ArcherLove wrote:

also guys, if you want to be heared by dev, might as well post at reddit? seems like it will get /more/ attention than at this thread too
tbh this seems like the only way to get devs attention now.

Anyways I don't see how getting DT the ability to give a pp boost is bad, I know that right now its broken and there shouldnt be this much of a pp boost but it gives the incentive to play mods more in one way or another. At least its different from all the same no mod plays that everyone has seem a million times imo.
JSELENABELIEBER

Redon wrote:

You guys all seem to assume there are people in charge of mania development who are interested in putting actual effort into improving the mode in ways that don't involve porting over ideas from standard
this. idk why people bother. it's been clear since the beginning that o!m will always cater the already established osu!std community rather than the external vsrg community. and it's not like the dev team is a group of monkeys, it's a conscious decision. so trying to argue against it after all this time is as big a meme as the game itself.
Yuudachi-kun

cpot wrote:

Redon wrote:

You guys all seem to assume there are people in charge of mania development who are interested in putting actual effort into improving the mode in ways that don't involve porting over ideas from standard
this. idk why people bother. it's been clear since the beginning that o!m will always cater the already established osu!std community rather than the external vsrg community. and it's not like the dev team is a group of monkeys, it's a conscious decision. so trying to argue against it after all this time is as big a meme as the game itself.
This sounds like Peppy
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