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how do you guys think about new DT system ?

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Full Tablet
Since DT gives a slight bonus to score, unless there is some sort of penalty for DT in pp calculations, DT scores give slightly more pp than they should.

Overall, making DT give the amount of pp that corresponds to it's star rating doesn't make the system more broken. In effect, it makes the amount of pp given for a DT play closer to the value it should give.
Evening

Full Tablet wrote:

Since DT gives a slight bonus to score, unless there is some sort of penalty for DT in pp calculations, DT scores give slightly more pp than they should.

Overall, making DT give the amount of pp that corresponds to it's star rating doesn't make the system more broken. In effect, it makes the amount of pp given for a DT play closer to the value it should give.
yea, this is correct, if 1.5x rate maps were ranked it would be as expected, however, the current ranking system doesn't really consider the case of 1.5x map ranked at all, hence, these "newly ranked maps" pretty much broke boundaries that weren't expected.

think the core problem is, however, the star rating, personally wouldn't say that it's useless, however, the rating kind of gets rather unfair and seemingly more inaccurately rated at higher densities, it's quite a sudden adjustment to what osu!mania is used to right now

think that enabling dt would definitely favor those who can vibro/jack well instead of complementing every skillset equally in terms of pp, will most likely see top 50 of osu!mania being "refreshed" with new players that are better in certain skillsets and drop those who cannot keep up. While i do not think that it'll become fairer, others may think otherwise in the future i suppose
Eraser
HOLY fuck the mania rankings
damn
-Rem-
I don't know if I should be happy or not, but it has their own ups and downs whatsoever.

Positive side, say, your skills in some variations (either jack, streams, or vibro) just like Evening said, will be tested. It's pretty nice to see their own potential on how limit they have. And yes, it yields greater rewards when you succeed.

However, the downside is, not even close to healthy if you consider playing on a burst of speed mods. It's never getting any better if just stick only to DT and just farming pp-s and all. Plus, beatmappers will tend to get a different approach on to map songs which density and the harsh sections provided will not inflate star ratings as well. I do honestly believe that they need to correct the star rating and density for nominators to pick up maps to be ranked, as for me.
dionzz99
uuhhh i just got this information when my local community is on fire about this stuff
majority still consider this thing is trash and i can't argue with it. the downside is a lot more "powerful" than the upside despite how many arguments pointed at both side
(for my opinion... at least)
Halogen-
yeah, this is pretty fucking terrible honestly

i'm done playing the game; i expected a boost in PP to happen but i didn't think that it was gonna be stupid enough to the point where people can literally get 2K+ PP runs on songs now. game's ruined for me.
gintoki147
sucks really bad
Kuo Kyoka
All I want to say is: It's bad! It's honestly bad!!
I'm not saying the PP system, star rating system because it's all broken 2 years ago, it's not changing anything, we didn't said we need DT PP score system, or score v2 too
I thought changes like this must be go throught community argeements before let it get into score system permanently
It's now being abuse, it's not only affected PP system itself but affected all mappers (well, not all)

Why?
1. They will always think "Players will play this map with double time so I must make this patterns so easy, HP OD drain small so they're be able to pass it easier too
2.
Player A: Move this move that for easier pattern
Player B: Igrone the music, we don't need it, just move it to here then we're good
Player C: This map is totally trash, no PP, I hate it


With all that effectives, I believe not many mappers would map the map like what they want anymore, must need to neat for A,B,C so they don't hate this map etc. so the map would be no souls at all, even thought it's their maps (?). That's when I'm not mentioning the map quality.

TL;DR: It's bad! Wrong and worse than before. We need ROLLBACK.

(My apologies If I'm saying anything wrong)
Pope Gadget
DT should boost score, not allow for an additional run per chart.

What this has done is create a schism between accuracy players and speed players. Players who are capable of sharpshooting but not spraying and praying are left with the short end of the stick, and can't do anything about it. So they leave. Why should they have to play god awful sr-abused charts (fucking jumptrills mang) faster for the sake of an arbitrary value?



*not said by me

Quality over quantity, fix the core mechanics of pp yielding and star rating instead of providing newer mechanics that branch off of an unstable platform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DCk_Meuw0A
Razzy
delicious pp rain

But seriously, I don't see this being a good thing for map variety in the long run, especially if we see more Triumph and Regret-like maps while maps like Apparition get passed over. What Pope said about speed vs. accuracy is pretty spot-on too.

It's gonna be interesting to see old 4k songs feel like Blastix Riotz or Japanese Transformation 403 FORBIDDEN though
SleepyDarkrai
doesnt really bother me too much, everyone will get used to it eventually and it promotes improvement - regardless of how unnecessary it might seem
Bubbler
As one of the top-50 players, I have a bit different opinion to many others here.

The star rating is a bit broken, yes. The pp system is a bit broken, I can agree with that.
However, the very first reason we use the pp system is to measure the player's ability - then it makes good sense to give higher pp to DT plays over nomod ones for the same map, considering the actual difficulty of playing (SR goes up by 1.5~2.0, and it's actually usually harder than other nomod maps with similar SR)
And seeing that super players pass literally any mania map with DT (even Ascension to Heaven and TLDNR got DT passes), being seemingly unplayable is not an issue - they just play and take their score and pp, and they deserve the pp because they have the ability to do so.

For those who got discouraged due to the pp inflation, it will take some time to accept it, but IMHO, many players will eventually settle with a few "everyone's DT maps" like the standard players did (I'm not degrading them; they - and I - have their own playing styles and enjoy the game even though many of them cannot do the DT farms) and the ranking will stabilize at the point.

On the mapping side, I'm a newbie in the area but I see the point of Kyoka (and other mappers, not here).
Definitely, mapping in favor of DT is a bad thing (some of it is already done in std). However, just like lots of std mappers just don't bother with pp mapping (including DT-favor mapping), many mania mappers will just map as they did till now. And again, super players will pass non-DT-mapped maps with DT anyway, so DT mapping would not be something to consider as a mapper.
But yes, some modders will still want easier DT maps. Rejecting them is up to the mappers, and I hope they do so.

TL;DR -
1) As a player, the thing is not too bad, and it can differentiate top players' abilities to hard maps using pp.
2) For the mapping community, some care will be needed, but (hopefully) it will not be a disaster as many think.
Halogen-

Bubbler wrote:

As one of the top-50 players, I have a bit different opinion to many others here.

The star rating is a bit broken, yes. The pp system is a bit broken, I can agree with that.
However, the very first reason we use the pp system is to measure the player's ability - then it makes good sense to give higher pp to DT plays over nomod ones for the same map, considering the actual difficulty of playing (SR goes up by 1.5~2.0, and it's actually usually harder than other nomod maps with similar SR)
And seeing that super players pass literally any mania map with DT (even Ascension to Heaven and TLDNR got DT passes), being seemingly unplayable is not an issue - they just play and take their score and pp, and they deserve the pp because they have the ability to do so.

For those who got discouraged due to the pp inflation, it will take some time to accept it, but IMHO, many players will eventually settle with a few "everyone's DT maps" like the standard players did (I'm not degrading them; they - and I - have their own playing styles and enjoy the game even though many of them cannot do the DT farms) and the ranking will stabilize at the point.

On the mapping side, I'm a newbie in the area but I see the point of Kyoka (and other mappers, not here).
Definitely, mapping in favor of DT is a bad thing (some of it is already done in std). However, just like lots of std mappers just don't bother with pp mapping (including DT-favor mapping), many mania mappers will just map as they did till now. And again, super players will pass non-DT-mapped maps with DT anyway, so DT mapping would not be something to consider as a mapper.
But yes, some modders will still want easier DT maps. Rejecting them is up to the mappers, and I hope they do so.
a.) PP system is not a bit broken, it's horribly broken. This is due in part that the SR system is horribly broken. SR can be horribly very easily manipulated to produce grossly inaccurate values and PP is directly affected by it.

b.) Your "very first reason" to measure a player's ability is flawed in the fact that it cannot accurately measure player ability on a per-player basis, and osu! has clearly indicated that it assumes keymodes to be separate in play (otherwise, there would not be two MWCs in the first place).

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.

d.) When you go for rank, you're going for showcasing your work to the community. If the community gets the impression that this increase in PP because of the DT mod is alright, they're going to naturally get pissed off when they can't benefit from it. People bitch about things like mini-jacks into well-accented triples/quads already when they're completely fair, because it's "not comfortable".

EDIT: personal note - you can kiss all of the improvements in mapping meta over the past 1.5 years that have helped to diversify the game goodbye, all anyone wants now is to get their fix so they can watch that arbitrary number climb. Nothing else matters right now.
SleepyDarkrai
this was coming regardless of how much you want to push it away. evening was right; new players will rise to the top and the older ones will either need to adapt or just accept pp favours specific skillsets. Being able to get great accuracy on easy charts is one thing, but being able to demolish those same charts on 1.5x speed is another
yetii

Halogen- wrote:

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.
This ^, future players will learn the game incorrectly and get a distorted/unbalanced skillset compared to what he should be able to. Accuracy and complex patterns? Nope ---> just jumptrill and pray for the best.

It's kinda funny for a while but I do hope they revrt it and talk to the community about these things instead of just throwing in somthing nobody really wants in the first place.

Star rating is broken, instead of fixing it, why not focus on the broken parts and make it even worse.
PP is a joke now
Halogen-

-Rem- wrote:

this was coming regardless of how much you want to push it away. evening was right; new players will rise to the top and the older ones will either need to adapt or just accept pp favours specific skillsets. Being able to get great accuracy on easy charts is one thing, but being able to demolish those same charts on 1.5x speed is another
"Accept the fact that it's more important to be good at spamming/praying than it is to play the game properly, and completely dismiss the fact that it's a rhythm game that should demand proper timing, and ability."

also see my previous point about the fact that the charts that people will be demolishing are ones that are being abused by the terrible structure of the SR system in the first place

p.s. note that this is also coming from someone who was proclaimed to previously be a part of "team stepmania" and i'm more than capable of making this shit pay dividends to me, i'm not exactly incapable of hauling ass when I need to - the fact of the matter is that this is generally going to be rewarding play in a way that it shouldn't
- NeKRoDanceR -
holy cannoli
Bubbler

Halogen- wrote:

a.) PP system is not a bit broken, it's horribly broken. This is due in part that the SR system is horribly broken. SR can be horribly very easily manipulated to produce grossly inaccurate values and PP is directly affected by it.
SR can be easily manipulated, yes, I already see that on a few very easy/hard maps relative to SR. But due to the very reason, I see that the mapping community has the tendency to not produce too easy PP maps, especially for high-SR ranked maps. For example, while Ascension to Heaven is an easy map relative to SR of 7+, it has got very high OD and HP to require enough skill to pass it and get the PP. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Halogen- wrote:

b.) Your "very first reason" to measure a player's ability is flawed in the fact that it cannot accurately measure player ability on a per-player basis, and osu! has clearly indicated that it assumes keymodes to be separate in play (otherwise, there would not be two MWCs in the first place).
If you have no way to measure a player's ability, then how would you rank all the players? No ranking system is perfect, even relative ones. Having a quantitative measure of a player's ability in some sort (albeit inaccurate) is a strength of this game. (a bit weak argument, but many players play this game aiming for higher rank, right?)

Regarding the keymodes, each keycount has completely different skill sets to master. I know that because I comfortably play 7-8K but completely suck at 4K. But then, I would suggest to make the ranking charts for each keycount, not just saying "the measure is inaccurate".

Halogen- wrote:

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.
I don't think that any single map out of the currently ranked mania maps is really PP-biased in that manner. For example, I can say Everlasting Message or Achromat or Haelequin(extended) is a "relative" PP map. But most players already know that fact and already have played and got the respective PP. Now the difference in their rankings mostly come from the harder maps of similar SR, including Haryu, TLDNE Extra, sister's noise, or whatever they play.

Also, while those "traditional PP maps" seem to be easier to pass with DT, decent enough skill is actually required to score high enough with DT so that the PP value is substantially higher than the previous nomod PP. Another example, I passed Maniera Collab Another +DT (8.xx stars) with B rank, but only got 2 PP improvement on that specific map. The point is that blind keyboard bashing with DT on (the thing I think you're worried about) simply does not work.
Maybe Everlasting Message could be an exception; but still then, everyone who can handle it with DT will take the PP and cancel out in their relative rankings. That could someday be one of the "everyone's DT map" I said.

The extremely skilled players don't cheat like that; they just play everything they can. That is how the current top-level ecosystem works.

Halogen- wrote:

d.) When you go for rank, you're going for showcasing your work to the community. If the community gets the impression that this increase in PP because of the DT mod is alright, they're going to naturally get pissed off when they can't benefit from it. People bitch about things like mini-jacks into well-accented triples/quads already when they're completely fair, because it's "not comfortable".
I already saw such reactions from many players I met online. Some of them said "I quit mania" or something like that. Yes, the DT thing is a huge change and it needs some time (maybe lots of time) to settle. I just hope they return to mania at some point and get used to the things.
Halogen-

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

a.) PP system is not a bit broken, it's horribly broken. This is due in part that the SR system is horribly broken. SR can be horribly very easily manipulated to produce grossly inaccurate values and PP is directly affected by it.
SR can be easily manipulated, yes, I already see that on a few very easy/hard maps relative to SR. But due to the very reason, I see that the mapping community has the tendency to not produce too easy PP maps, especially for high-SR ranked maps. For example, while Ascension to Heaven is an easy map relative to SR of 7+, it has got very high OD and HP to require enough skill to pass it and get the PP. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
This is the case with any map; of course you need to have the physical ability to do it, but when you do, the difficulty to perform said things is substantially lower than a map whose star rating is produced properly by linear difficulty and not spiking. AtH is considered an easy map to those who can do it because the patterns are extremely friendly, and it therefore scales well to DT. There's a reason why people are avoiding other maps that are that high in SR: they don't scale well, likely because they're a more true reflection of what their difficulty should actually be with regards to the star rating.

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

b.) Your "very first reason" to measure a player's ability is flawed in the fact that it cannot accurately measure player ability on a per-player basis, and osu! has clearly indicated that it assumes keymodes to be separate in play (otherwise, there would not be two MWCs in the first place).
If you have no way to measure a player's ability, then how would you rank all the players? No ranking system is perfect, even relative ones. Having a quantitative measure of a player's ability in some sort (albeit inaccurate) is a strength of this game. (a bit weak argument, but many players play this game aiming for higher rank, right?)
Single word response: "farming." That alone should speak that it's not ranking people properly, because people feel that they can farm extra points out in situations where they might not be worthy of otherwise gaining any points.

Bubbler wrote:

Regarding the keymodes, each keycount has completely different skill sets to master. I know that because I comfortably play 7-8K but completely suck at 4K. But then, I would suggest to make the ranking charts for each keycount, not just saying "the measure is inaccurate".
Separated key rankings helps a ton - it's something that I wanted to pursue doing for a little while before realizing that the API wasn't extensible enough to suit my needs, since the PP seems to be based off of your 100 best scores (even though the bottom values are trivial, they are required for the sake of accuracy). But the fact of the matter is that measure -is- inaccurate, and until something is done to remedy these inaccuracies, it deserves to be mentioned, over and over again. Everyone knows that the SR system has massive issues on mania, and this knowledge alone should have been reason to consider reworking that before adding a multiplier. Think of yourself throwing a piece of tarp over a pile of shit: you can cover the appearance of it, but it's still gonna feel disgusting when you step on it, and it's gonna stink even more because you've spread it over a larger area. SR works the same way, it's horribly inaccurate: adding DT to it doesn't make the SR system worse because it's intended to scale, but it amplifies the issues that exist.

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.
I don't think that any single map out of the currently ranked mania maps is really PP-biased in that manner. For example, I can say Everlasting Message or Achromat or Haelequin(extended) is a "relative" PP map. But most players already know that fact and already have played and got the respective PP. Now the difference in their rankings mostly come from the harder maps of similar SR, including Haryu, TLDNE Extra, sister's noise, or whatever they play.

Also, while those "traditional PP maps" seem to be easier to pass with DT, decent enough skill is actually required to score high enough with DT so that the PP value is substantially higher than the previous nomod PP. Another example, I passed Maniera Collab Another +DT (8.xx stars) with B rank, but only got 2 PP improvement on that specific map. The point is that blind keyboard bashing with DT on (the thing I think you're worried about) simply does not work.
Maybe Everlasting Message could be an exception; but still then, everyone who can handle it with DT will take the PP and cancel out in their relative rankings. That could someday be one of the "everyone's DT map" I said.

The extremely skilled players don't cheat like that; they just play everything they can. That is how the current top-level ecosystem works.
Bolded point: you clearly don't know the 4k PP mines that exist. Triumph and Regret, whose sole difficulty comes from arbitrary bursts that are jumptrillable, can net you over 900 PP on a 98% run. The chart doesn't deserve anywhere near that much PP for the run. Simply getting low-mid 90s on charts will net you a huge amount of the possible performance points. Barely getting an A rank on it nets you over 650 fucking PP, come on now. The increase is way too high, and the dropoff for underperforming is way too low. People can abuse maps that have huge spikes in them to dictate their PP, survive them through spamming, and reap HUGE rewards. This concept of "blind keyboard mashing not working" - you're wrong, and there's no other way to put it. People wouldn't be in arms about this shit if it was actually hard to get the boosts. Guess what: it's not. It's piss easy to increase your PP. If you're remotely capable of intelligently mashing through hard sections, you get the points for it, end of story.

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

d.) When you go for rank, you're going for showcasing your work to the community. If the community gets the impression that this increase in PP because of the DT mod is alright, they're going to naturally get pissed off when they can't benefit from it. People bitch about things like mini-jacks into well-accented triples/quads already when they're completely fair, because it's "not comfortable".
I already saw such reactions from many players I met online. Some of them said "I quit mania" or something like that. Yes, the DT thing is a huge change and it needs some time (maybe lots of time) to settle. I just hope they return to mania at some point and get used to the things.
As a mapper, and a high level player: this shit sucks.
Edgar_Figaro
TBH it doesn't bother me much but I do think mania PP values are even more overinflated than they were before. I honestly think that players having 25k PP when the best in other modes don't even come close to 20k is bizarre. Not saying that Jakads isn't better than Cookiezi at standard, dusk at CTB, or Yu_68 at Taiko (not that you could really compare that anyways) but I feel the numbers are just too far out of whack now.
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