Playing for fun is not the best way to improve?

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Topic Starter
Blitzfrog
I know many people ask the best way to improve here in G&R and lots of the response is to enjoy game, I think otherwise.

I base the assumption on the fact that people train in anything they do, and training is generally not fun.

For me, I play badminton, and had I just "had fun" and just enjoyed the sport, I would never be even close to my current standard.
Now you might argue that this is a video game, and video games are for fun, I would argue otherwise as well.
I base this on the fact that I personally know a few pro DOTA2 players and Starcraft players. They do not simply just "play more" and improve, instead, they focus on parts of the game and train in that area. They call it mechanics training, and I have had a taste of it, it is far from fun, 30minutes doing the same thing over and over again, but the results are astonishing.

Another example would be piano, do you think professionals just keep playing pieces they enjoy to improve? They don't, they play scales. Sure playing the pieces you love will improve your skills, but it won't take you far and you will end up with lots of technical flaws, e.g. tensing up too much or wrong fingering when descending ...etc.

My point is, why is it that everything requires training in specific areas and every training is almost not fun, yet the advice given here is "enjoy game", sure this is a video game, but improving in it is also a joy. You don't go around defining what is fun for people, maybe they find the competitiveness fun. Just a thought
Llahmah 2
Sure there are faster ways of improving than just playing for fun. Some people try trial by fire, doing maps way too hard and then when they try what they were doing before it seems a lot easier. Because of high fail rate I imagine that's not too fun. Also like you said people might train a certain part of their game. But if you are bad at streaming in the first place and you try practice stream maps, it will probably take a while to improve. So mechanic training could(?) be effective, but unlike Starcraft and dota and other competitive games, there is pretty much no way to go pro. You could become a streamer, but there isn't a major osu! League with 10k prize pools, so all that practice doesn't accumulate to anything worthwhile.

Tl;dr, playing for fun lets you practice many different parts of osu! because most maps have jumps, streams and everything, and practicing streaming on its own and then trying to play a map, where there will be streams, jumps, etc. might seem unnecessary compared to just playing and getting all of the skills. Plus there is no real reason to get good and try for top 50 or whatever unless you are super talented or just really want it that bad.
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

Llahmah wrote:

Sure there are faster ways of improving than just playing for fun. Some people try trial by fire, doing maps way too hard and then when they try what they were doing before it seems a lot easier. Because of high fail rate I imagine that's not too fun. Also like you said people might train a certain part of their game. But if you are bad at streaming in the first place and you try practice stream maps, it will probably take a while to improve. So mechanic training could(?) be effective, but unlike Starcraft and dota and other competitive games, there is pretty much no way to go pro. You could become a streamer, but there isn't a major osu! League with 10k prize pools, so all that practice doesn't accumulate to anything worthwhile.

Tl;dr, playing for fun lets you practice many different parts of osu! because most maps have jumps, streams and everything, and practicing streaming on its own and then trying to play a map, where there will be streams, jumps, etc. might seem unnecessary compared to just playing and getting all of the skills. Plus there is no real reason to get good and try for top 50 or whatever unless you are super talented or just really want it that bad.
Dota is actually 18 million USD prize pool :P

Also, I think you should read that last sentence of mine :?:?
N0thingSpecial
this is basically what "play more" and "plz enjoy game" in an elaborate way
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

N0thingSpecial wrote:

this is basically what "play more" and "plz enjoy game" in an elaborate way
how so...
Llahmah 2
Sorry, never really cared or knew much about dota so 10k was just a reference. But holy crap those guys are living comfortably. And yeah as far as your closing statement I was just trying to explain why people say enjoy game instead of grind your ass off on jump practice, so that since there is no real end goal with osu!, enjoying the game is the only real point. Which I realize you kind of said, I was just elaborating.
Alea
As long as they enjoy the game, depends on each one to improve at their own rythm.
Sayorie
Reminder that the game starts to become crap when fun is thrown out the window.
Being frustrated sucks.
[Gaia]
DeathAdderz
I think the reason people start saying "enjoy game" is because rrtyui said it (see picture above).

As for "play more", well, it's just true. It's just the general term. I mean, when you do the so-called mechanics training, you also "play more", don't you?
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

DeathAdderz wrote:

I think the reason people start saying "enjoy game" is because rrtyui said it (see picture above).

As for "play more", well, it's just true. It's just the general term. I mean, when you do the so-called mechanics training, you also "play more", don't you?
Yes but clearly a newbie doesn't think that's what play more means
DeathAdderz
Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".
Jukkii
Better questions mean better answers.
But usually when low rankers ask for advice, they ask "how to get good" but instead of answering with "play more" i do the work for them and create their question for them in my mind by looking at their profile and figuring out their weaknesses, then giving advice based on that.

As for OP, yes. Playing for fun is not (usually) the most effective way to improve, however, if you really enjoy playing this game like i do, even training can be really fun (ive been gifted with the ability to start liking something simply by deciding so, usually i do it with music). Also playing for improvement can be fun, as many people enjoy improving and setting better scores than before.
Edgar_Figaro

DeathAdderz wrote:

Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".
Nah you will still get "Play more" or slightly more specific of "Play more stream maps"
-Makishima S-
My point is, why is it that everything requires training in specific areas and every training is almost not fun, yet the advice given here is "enjoy game", sure this is a video game, but improving in it is also a joy. You don't go around defining what is fun for people, maybe they find the competitiveness fun. Just a thought
Don't compare real life sport training for improvement to computer game, this are two different worlds.
Forcing yourself to do somethign which isn't fun doesn't give any significant improvement.
Simple example: Take a swimmer and tell him to learn Juji-tsu knowing he is not interested in this. I can assure you that someone who enjoy juji-tsu and put his heart into training because "he like it" will achieve more in 6 horus per day than this swimmer training 12 hours while he doesn't like it.

"Pls enjoy game" is good way to start, if you don't enjoy game - why you ever play? Retorical question btw. Either you are hypocrit who search for internet fame or shit. You will not achieve anything if you don't enjoy your activity.

"Play more" is practically proven best form of training in this game. There is no strategies, no tutorials, no guidelines for technical things like streaming, faster tapping etc. All comes to simple training - actually playing this game. More you play, more experience you gain. Simple tasks which require any type of muscle activity gives best output by training muscle memory. osu! is a stupidly simple 2D game.

Playing for fun is one way of improving. Playing specific even most hated pattern is other.
Many players achieved a lot by just playing for fun and best example of this is Rohulk who was having fun in countless multiplayer matches where he just played this game for pure fun.
DeathAdderz

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

DeathAdderz wrote:

Can't argue about that, but I often see that newbies ask stuff too general like "how do I get better?". When you ask a very general question, of course the answer will be a general answer, which is "play more".

I'm pretty sure if you ask something specific like "how to increase my stream speed?", you will get some good advice other than simply "play more".
Nah you will still get "Play more" or slightly more specific of "Play more stream maps"
Of course those people exist, but well, you get the point.
M3ATL0V3R

Blitzfrog wrote:

I know many people ask the best way to improve here in G&R and lots of the response is to enjoy game, I think otherwise.

I base the assumption on the fact that people train in anything they do, and training is generally not fun.

For me, I play badminton, and had I just "had fun" and just enjoyed the sport, I would never be even close to my current standard.
Now you might argue that this is a video game, and video games are for fun, I would argue otherwise as well.
I base this on the fact that I personally know a few pro DOTA2 players and Starcraft players. They do not simply just "play more" and improve, instead, they focus on parts of the game and train in that area. They call it mechanics training, and I have had a taste of it, it is far from fun, 30minutes doing the same thing over and over again, but the results are astonishing.

Another example would be piano, do you think professionals just keep playing pieces they enjoy to improve? They don't, they play scales. Sure playing the pieces you love will improve your skills, but it won't take you far and you will end up with lots of technical flaws, e.g. tensing up too much or wrong fingering when descending ...etc.

My point is, why is it that everything requires training in specific areas and every training is almost not fun, yet the advice given here is "enjoy game", sure this is a video game, but improving in it is also a joy. You don't go around defining what is fun for people, maybe they find the competitiveness fun. Just a thought
From your post I can see three main points

1. Fun can be detrimental to improvement as it is a poor guide for what to train

This is true, what you find fun isn't always what you need to do to improve. Many people like to play what they are good at and familiar with which is bad because to improve the fastest you frequently need to do what is new or out of your comfort zone

2. Training generally is not fun and therefore fun doesn't really help you improve

I disagree with this, having fun engages the brain and speeds up improvement if done in the right way. However the fun has to be in the context of figuring out the game or feeling the rhythm not in the context of relaxing or habit.

3. Pro starcraft and dota players do not just "play more" they train a specific area.

When people say play more they don't mean to just play whatever, they usually say this to people who are complaining about their lack of improvement while not putting in enough practice
Topic Starter
Blitzfrog

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

From your post I can see three main points

1. Fun can be detrimental to improvement as it is a poor guide for what to train

This is true, what you find fun isn't always what you need to do to improve. Many people like to play what they are good at and familiar with which is bad because to improve the fastest you frequently need to do what is new or out of your comfort zone

2. Training generally is not fun and therefore fun doesn't really help you improve

I disagree with this, having fun engages the brain and speeds up improvement if done in the right way. However the fun has to be in the context of figuring out the game or feeling the rhythm not in the context of relaxing or habit.

Ok just want to clarify, I haven't seen any study about having fun engages the brain anymore than not having fun, nor have I found a study that shows that it does speed up improvement. However I have found plenty of studies that show an increase in motivation levels after having fun, which maybe the key to improving in long term, but as the title of this post is focused on best way to improve in general, I meant as in the fastest way to improve. Also another thing is, the fun you receive after training is just 10 times better really. The increased speed, the increased stamina by a dramatic amount, it really makes it more fun when you improve.

3. Pro starcraft and dota players do not just "play more" they train a specific area.

When people say play more they don't mean to just play whatever, they usually say this to people who are complaining about their lack of improvement while not putting in enough practice

I doubt that is what they meant. Also aren't we supposed to be as helpful as we can? Like Jukke wrote, writing "play more" you might as well have posted "be more specific" because at least the latter is of use.
-Makishima S-
Searching magical ways of fast improvement in simple as motherfuck 2D game is like searching for pope wife - retarded.
When you learn this?

Best way to improve - play more.

Having fun in activity is crucial for improvement. As i already said, you will not teach a swimmer juji-tsu when he does not have fun with it. Same goes for osu - you will not improve for shit if you don't have fun from playing the game. And game itself is so fuckin simple that.... read above.
[Gaia]
If you enjoy game and play more you'll get better, simple as that
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