Ever heard of Muhammad Ali's quote? "I hated every second if training, but I told myself, push through this and you will become a champion"

So are you gonna tell me he is doing it wrong? The legendary world champion boxer is doing it wrong? He certainly didn't like training, but certainly loved boxing. But did he just "have fun" and spar all day?

Next not given fun in the first place, so you think kids who are forced to play piano love it when they first touch it? Don't you think they wanna play with their friends instead?

There are many things in life that althought you don't like at the start, you start liking it as you be come better. Same thing with osu, eve Rafis hated it at the start, but now he loves it.

And you're wrong about how human brain works, one of the fundamental principles of attraction is exposure, we like what we're exposed more of. Neurons fire in a a specific way for a particular event, and the more times it is fired, the more stronger it will become, making you more likely to do it again.

Blitzfrog wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

If results are needed as soon as possible then pushing through training even when its not fun will lead to results faster, however the efficiency of the training diminishes the longer you go. Putting in more hours is one way to get results but enjoying the game or getting more motivated or engaged is another way. If you decide to put in more training be careful doing this as it can lead to RSI or burnout.

You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.

N0thingSpecial gave a reason to why people do this, its because many of the posters who ask for help have done no research at all or want results without putting effort in themselves. Why bother helping people who barely help themselves?

Even if you do give a well though out detailed answer, a person like that is unlikely to even read the advice so its a waste of time.

On a side note since you have made a decently though out post and are engaged in discussion people will want to give you good advice rather than just say play more.

[Taiga] wrote:

Ever heard of Muhammad Ali's quote? "I hated every second if training, but I told myself, push through this and you will become a champion"

So are you gonna tell me he is doing it wrong? The legendary world champion boxer is doing it wrong? He certainly didn't like training, but certainly loved boxing. But did he just "have fun" and spar all day?

You take this quote too open. If you check deeper and analyze reason why he said it, you will understand, it's about the message for people who don't see hope despite long trainings - to not give up. "Message sentences" are said in several different ways and open interpretation of them is often wrong.

Let me ask you then, why did he say such a quote. If by having fun is the best way to improve, why tell others to push through the hard and tedious training, why not say "enjoy boxing," Or for that concern, why is there so many quotes of push hard and become champion in the first place when according to you, the best way to improve is have fun.

Next not given fun in the first place, so you think kids who are forced to play piano love it when they first touch it? Don't you think they wanna play with their friends instead?

And non of them are known like Chopin, Mozard, Bach and many more who was learning this and doing it on their own. The whole principle of "parents forcing kids to play something" was created as missconception of well known composer bio where short biography presented in newspapers etc often inform only about "their parents giving them lessons". People forgot that in the past, it was hard for great teachers, often cost of lessons from them was beyond family cash.

Ok just gonna addres the thing you're talking about first. Did you leave out Beethoven on purpose? Probably the most famous composer of all time, father of romantic period basically, and amazing compositions of symphonies. If you didn't, then I just want to say, his background is exactly the opposite of what you said. Forced by his dad to play piano even at night, he was beaten by his dad. If you are gonna say he likes piano at the start, I'm gonna proceed to kill myself because nobody is that dumb.
Also one more thing, I hated badminton when I first started. Now I love it, so these are just why I believe you can start liking something simply by doing it.

I commend though, that information I did not know and I will look into it more deeply, thanks.

There are many things in life that althought you don't like at the start, you start liking it as you be come better. Same thing with osu, eve Rafis hated it at the start, but now he loves it.

From what i know, Rafis on "interview" claimed he played osu once and he liked it from start. You have wrong info.

https://youtu.be/wKhuovIMa8k
Check 1:40

And you're wrong about how human brain works, one of the fundamental principles of attraction is exposure, we like what we're exposed more of. Neurons fire in a a specific way for a particular event, and the more times it is fired, the more stronger it will become, making you more likely to do it again.

One more time - go deeper into analyze and understanding.
Human brain and body will have way harder time to learn something which it doesn't like.
If we take perfect training practice and 2 people, one who loves activity and second who will get forced to it: who do you think will achieve more?

I honestly am questioning you thinking my depth of analysis is shallow, like the above it seems to me like you're not understanding my point. I am not trying to show I'm a superior human being, otherwise I would use big words to make myself sound more knowledgeable, point is, I'm not trying to argue with you, just wanting you to at least take in some of what I am saying. You seem to be talking about someone being forced to do something, and not succeeding in it, whereas I'm talking about when you want to do something, you gotta train which isn't always very fun. You can see what I was trying to say by my example of Muhammad Ali's quote. He certainly loved boxing, but he hated training, and that's what I'm trying to say.


No, not necessarily. The misconception of fun makes you improve faster lies by the fact that people think its logical that fun improves learning speed directly. It doesn't. What it does is elevate motivation and concentration, the latter is the real requirement to speed learning. Why is it that taking breaks between practises is considered the best way to improve? Its because of concentration.

What you said about the test, yes it's true, if all other factors remain constant, the guy with more fun will improve faster. But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode. Disclaimer, this is not the same adrenaline level as close to FCing something, it is much more intense due to it being life threatening. Sure enough, he may not like osu, but at the end of the day he is going to learn faster.

So what, when the hell is that gonna happen?
My point is, you're disregarding all the other emotions a human can exhibit. Love, fear, anger. These emotions are all more intense then fun, resulting in more concentration.

But that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about training rather than having fun. Surely if you can enjoy training, you will be a prodigy, like your example, Mozart and Chopin.

Small story from my own life - my parents wanted me to be a "psychologist" since as a kid i had wide open mind. In 1989 i got "exposed" to first computer, programming in basic. You know why i lied to parents that "i am learning to be a psychologist"? To indirectly force them as a kid to buy me new and new and new computer each 2-3 years and focus on this what i really like - software engineering. At the end, i have 2 University Grade Engineer titles in both - Software Engineering and Network Security and do not what my parents wanted but what i love.

I saw people who went to learn software engineering atracted by money - while for me learning C++/Python in University was pretty much - look for some "black bible", spend 2-3 hours on code examples, go play games, for them who went "for money" as they climed it was whole days and nights of learning.

Seeing this does make me feel somewhat sorry for you, which is probably the emotion you were trying to give to me, and I do see where you're coming from but I want to say that this is not the same case. And the reason I say that is because a job choice, and job choices generally you only get 1 degree, you would obviously want something you love. For games its different, you are not bound by something, you're not forced to pick, therefore you have the option to try everything, allowing you to fall in love with something you hated at the start.

TL;DR: Your whole point is invalid when you try to prove something without proper understanding of a problem and solutions for it. Answer often is different when you handle problem stright away and split it into pieces and analyze deeply from the core.

RaneFire wrote:

I think the real point of "play for fun" is actually a caution to players not to get hung up on internet fame, and also specifically because this game does not attract any significant prize money reward. But playing for fun can include strategies to improve. Who says they can't? You just do both at the same time and avoid strategies which are genuinely unpleasant (not the result of mistakes).

It would be fallacious to assume that fun is the only way to motivate yourself to improve, because there are plenty other ways to motivate yourself (internet fame for example, and... potentially winning some money). Granted, if you are really good at osu!, twitch.tv can earn you money from supporters, but I'm not too clued up on the statistics. The only problem is that you have to be extremely good... one of the few, or even just the best.

I know why I spent my time playing certain games at a young age, and it wasn't because it was fun. For many of the games, it was fun. But for the main game I played, it was because I was delusional. Internet fame sucks. It is a delusion and it is transient. When life catches up, only a few will care who you were 3 years later (in which case they probably fall into the "friends" category), because even average players will have surpassed you, unless you are the absolute best at the game by a good few light years.

In same the way as a pyramid scheme would earn people money, so does gaming. Only the top of the top of the 1% make anything worthwhile. It is better to just enjoy all the benefits of life and focus on getting a job as your primary source of income, instead of thinking you can make it as a gamer because you "enjoy" it. Sure, it is more fun than working, no argument there, but it is not a good investment of your time for the long term, considering just how much you have to play/practice that ONE game to get anywhere. Diversity is fun too, and so is being social. That's not to assume anyone isn't doing those last two, but if you are really driven to be the best at a game, there is a good chance you aren't.

You know what's a really good investment to start young? Physical training. You will take your health for granted until it goes pear shaped, not purely because you sat on your ass all day as a kid, but because you didn't use your healthiest and most developmental years wisely. Kudos to some of the pro gamers who have their shit together, though.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Really well though out posts by Taiga N0thingSpecial and Ranefire, they were very interesting to read.

Blitzfrog wrote:

Yes but being better at something results in much more fun. Which means training indirectly makes it more fun. Why else would sportsmen do all that training when half of them aren't even attempting to become pro.

If results are needed as soon as possible then pushing through training even when its not fun will lead to results faster, however the efficiency of the training diminishes the longer you go. Putting in more hours is one way to get results but enjoying the game or getting more motivated or engaged is another way. If you decide to put in more training be careful doing this as it can lead to RSI or burnout.

You're right, extensive training is diminishing and may give you RSI. Which is why it should be paired up with breaks.
As to your idea of pairing training with fun, I think if training is fun, you're either doing it wrong, or you're a weirdo, and have seen some people enjoy playing scales.

You're right, most players come here due to the frustration they have , and meming at them when they're frustrated is just not helpful (unless they posted in OT which I do troll them). Which is why I kinda decided to put this thought out there in the first place.

N0thingSpecial gave a reason to why people do this, its because many of the posters who ask for help have done no research at all or want results without putting effort in themselves. Why bother helping people who barely help themselves?

Even if you do give a well though out detailed answer, a person like that is unlikely to even read the advice so its a waste of time.

On a side note since you have made a decently though out post and are engaged in discussion people will want to give you good advice rather than just say play more.

Just want to clarify, I'm not looking for advices on becoming better, I was just giving people my idea. As to what you're saying, surely of the massive amount of people posting here, there has to be that one boob which doesn't even know what to look for, and doesn't know what to improve on. So the natural question to ask is how to improve? And then i see a bunch of memes down there it really makes me sad you know.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Yes but you yourself even said we as a community can't define what's fun for what player then why are you even bringing up the discussion knowing entirely fun is a state of mind, what's left of this discussion is that "I think training is important even if it's not fun" well duh that's what life is about in the first place, I play the piano I know this shit, I have a job and I know this shit, if you think it's important enough you would turn any negative pressure like training, practice, boring repetitive routine, into something that motivates you to become better.

My point is bringing this up is pointless cause if the player don't think this game is important or fun to start with then wats the point into pushing them to do training

The group people who constantly post "hur dur how do I improve" ot anything vague don't actually give a shit about their improvement, if they did they would've identify the problem and look up Google or ask for specificity in their thread. Bottom line is that if they give half assed discussion topics we give half assed but truthful answer like "plz enjoy game" or "play more"

Let me ask you then, why did he say such a quote. If by having fun is the best way to improve, why tell others to push through the hard and tedious training, why not say "enjoy boxing," Or for that concern, why is there so many quotes of push hard and become champion in the first place when according to you, the best way to improve is have fun.

Ok just gonna addres the thing you're talking about first. Did you leave out Beethoven on purpose? Probably the most famous composer of all time, father of romantic period basically, and amazing compositions of symphonies. If you didn't, then I just want to say, his background is exactly the opposite of what you said. Forced by his dad to play piano even at night, he was beaten by his dad. If you are gonna say he likes piano at the start, I'm gonna proceed to kill myself because nobody is that dumb.
Also one more thing, I hated badminton when I first started. Now I love it, so these are just why I believe you can start liking something simply by doing it.

I commend though, that information I did not know and I will look into it more deeply, thanks.

https://youtu.be/wKhuovIMa8k
Check 1:40

I'm talking about when you want to do something, you gotta train which isn't always very fun.

No, not necessarily. The misconception of fun makes you improve faster lies by the fact that people think its logical that fun improves learning speed directly. It doesn't. What it does is elevate motivation and concentration, the latter is the real requirement to speed learning. Why is it that taking breaks between practises is considered the best way to improve? Its because of concentration.

But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode. Disclaimer, this is not the same adrenaline level as close to FCing something, it is much more intense due to it being life threatening. Sure enough, he may not like osu, but at the end of the day he is going to learn faster.

Seeing this does make me feel somewhat sorry for you, which is probably the emotion you were trying to give to me, and I do see where you're coming from but I want to say that this is not the same case. And the reason I say that is because a job choice, and job choices generally you only get 1 degree, you would obviously want something you love. For games its different, you are not bound by something, you're not forced to pick, therefore you have the option to try everything, allowing you to fall in love with something you hated at the start.

[Taiga] wrote:

About quote itself - same thing like with milion other quotes said in twisted way to humanity. It's your interpretation of it what matters and it can be either good or bad. That's the point of philosophy.
Now i could ask you: please take one activity which you don't like, don't enjoy and please - push hard, be a "so called champion". Can you do this? I doubt it, even if - every single person who enjoys this activity will be better than you, no matter how much you will force yourself. It's complex mindset which force people to train, explore new posibilities by being better at something but to do this, first of all - you need to enjoy what you are doing, you need to feel constant "wind in the sails" to not get mentaly exhausted by this.

Wise people tend to give their knowledge in way that humanity can make interpretations, put it into not one certain situation but many different, yet they always have one proper message. In case of your quote from M.Ali, it's "never give up, push yourself more and more to be better, you will not achieve the very top by sitting on your ass" or "there is no glory without hard training", both are true.

The other truth proved by both - psychology and medicine is that you will never do better at something what doesn't give you some kind of joy.

No it is not proved by psychology, and it has close to nothing to do with medicine. Psychology in fact, is on the downhill atm because many if it's experiments were P-hacked.(like probability hacked, simply experiments were done very untruthfully to obtain a shocking result in order to publish and get money)

And yes you can beat someone else by sheer better training. In China there are concentration camps sort of thing for badminton, I love badminton, down to the core. But no matter how hard I try, ill never come close to any of them. Due to poor training in NZ and less quantity if training. I had a Thai chick that came to NZ this year, she bet me in badminton. Normally that is very hard for a girl, not being sexist but its true. She told me straight after that she hated badminton, and that she was forced to play. You know how that made me felt, like trash, Cus despite loving something, I can't beat her due to the much better training in Thailand and my lack of talent compared to her.

Many people hate, and I mean hate, piano at the start. But they were forced to continue, and then they love it. Why? Lot of the time its because they can show off, and that drives them to practise. There is no traditional "fun" here, but the current most technical pianist, at least majority would agree, Lang Lang, is driven by showing off, in return giving him the "fun".

I like it when you said you will be mentally exhausted if you don't enjoy it in the first place, you're dead right. But many times you don't realise you like something till you get good at it. Nobody likes Dota at the start, died 64 times in my first game. Learning curve is too steep, but when you get good, and you stomp, you get all the good feels. If you are implying that to like something, you have to like it straight away, I would have to say you're wrong sorry.

Of course, if you can enjoy training, you will be a prodigy.

Ok just gonna addres the thing you're talking about first. Did you leave out Beethoven on purpose? Probably the most famous composer of all time, father of romantic period basically, and amazing compositions of symphonies. If you didn't, then I just want to say, his background is exactly the opposite of what you said. Forced by his dad to play piano even at night, he was beaten by his dad. If you are gonna say he likes piano at the start, I'm gonna proceed to kill myself because nobody is that dumb.
Also one more thing, I hated badminton when I first started. Now I love it, so these are just why I believe you can start liking something simply by doing it.

I commend though, that information I did not know and I will look into it more deeply, thanks.

In classical music, many critics will tell you that "X" is most famous composer of all time. I could say - Brahms and Schubert are the very great for my taste. There is no thing like "one best of all". Yes, i left him on purpose since i done research before and i knew his story. Back to middle school i liked history. There will be always separated examples from main theory but they are always in minority. In actual world, you make assumptions and prove them in term of majority which in this case - it's what i am trying to explain you.

If a music critic says Beethoven is not the most famous of all time, that person is not a music critic. Because that is like saying Einstein is not the most famous physicist of all time. Yeah sure there is Newton, but people know E=mc2 and not F=ma.

Brahms and Schubert are very great

You're right, but these are the type of boys who have extroadinary talent and loves playing scales. They spent all day in front of piano or scoresheet, if they aren't prodigy, I'm not a human

https://youtu.be/wKhuovIMa8k
Check 1:40

Rafis didn't said he hated it, he said it was boring and majority of people find begining of osu! journey fuckin boring. Almost nothing to click, always same boring patterns, zero creativity and retarded blankets forced by QAT/BN because "fuck playability, map should look nice", etc. Nothing more wrong from your side.

But doesn't boring translate to not fun? Not every map was like that. Lesjuh and a bunch of old mappers. You're older, I know less than you, but I know that not all maps are that trash, simply because I have most of them. But did Rafis quit? He did. Annnnd he came back. Point is, you don't just like something by not playing it when it's not fun. Rafis gave it another go, I'm sure when he first came back, he had the mentality that this game sucks. And guess what he was attracted by? Not the game, but the ranking, just like Lang Lang

I'm talking about when you want to do something, you gotta train which isn't always very fun.

Training is part of activity. As far as your activity gives you fun and you find yourself enjoying it and being forced by this joy to get better and discover new posibilities, that what you call "training not being fun" goes into second plane.
Counter-argument - training in something what doesn't catch you, doesn't give you fun at all - yes, then training is anti-fun, painfull and mostly wasted.

Ok I think you misunderstood what I was saying. If you decide you want to get good at something, it is usually driven by an emotion. Anger, Love, fun whatever you name it. So you already have a "reason" why you play, and you want to improve the fastest you can for whatever the hell knows reason. I'm saying, training, is the best way to go.

Just asking, do you think training is fun so long as you like the thing you're doing? If not skip next para

Judo champions have strict routines, they are not bodybuilders, not stretchers or splitters. People don't go into judo thinking of doing the splits, or lifting weights/rolling weights. They go in to throw people. But that is certainly not how you train judo. They train tour rolls, make you do splits to ensure you're flexible, train you cores to make sure you can endure the rotation of your body, point is, these are boring as hell. Sure there are some maniac out there that loves this, but most people will hate it. 30 min straight repetition of a small task is boring for anyone

No, not necessarily. The misconception of fun makes you improve faster lies by the fact that people think its logical that fun improves learning speed directly. It doesn't. What it does is elevate motivation and concentration, the latter is the real requirement to speed learning. Why is it that taking breaks between practises is considered the best way to improve? Its because of concentration.

Fun improves learning speed a lot and it's proved by people way more smart than you and me. You cannot deny this.

Yes I can, because it is not proven. There have been attempts, none of them passed the probability test. I think what you're talking about is the memory tricked, that is certainly tested. It states that humor helps learning. As laughing releases some sort of chemical I forgot, probably endorphin, so it helps moving memories from short term memory to long term memory storage.

I already gave you example for this.

Target of argument:
Person A, fan of water sports, not interested at all in martial arts.
Person B, fan of martial art sports, not interested at all in water sports.

Rule of experiment:
Perfect training shedule for both - water sport called "swimming" and martial art called "Juji-tsu".
Amount of training time is same for both targets.
Amount of mental and physical effort is same for both activities.

Proof of argument:
Person A will never achieve target B skill level in Juji-tsu due mental disability to accomodate martial arts activity.
Person B will never achieve target A skill level in swimming due --``-- water sports activity.

Yes but what I'm arguing here is training makes a bigger difference than fun.
Also you forgot to set talent as a constant

Ok I give you another experiment

Person A: Fan of Judo
Person B: Hates Judo

Rule:
Person A is self taught
Person B is taught extensively

Now tell me if I made them fight, who will win? I would say its so close to 100% to be person B that whether talent is a constant or not, it doesn't change the results

But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode. Disclaimer, this is not the same adrenaline level as close to FCing something, it is much more intense due to it being life threatening. Sure enough, he may not like osu, but at the end of the day he is going to learn faster.

Invalid point - critical force for achievement is dictated by human body and mind limits. Each person have different. I can assure you that if you threat someone by putting gun to his mother head and telling him to stand on one finger, he will not do this unless his body allows him. There is too many variables in this calculation which negate whole point of this discussion. This one argument can be discussed in term of particular person and end result is pinned to this one particulat test subject.

If your point was valid, in WWII nazi germany could create tons of super-human soldiers but they failed by simply going exacly your way of thinking. I recommend you to get into whole Nazi germany human experiments topic, especially part of test subject mentally forced to do something by situations of seeing their family being "killed on their eyes when they fail". It's interesting experiment and gives a lot of knowledge about humanity limits to do certain things.

Ok that is like saying under threat situations, why can't people run at the speed of light?
Of course there is limit to how good you'll become.

What I have said is not an invalid point, you have just turned it invalid. Are you telling me that you don't run faster under life threatening situations? You don't need much adrenaline to be more focused than someone having fun you know.

On a side note, I searched for the Nazi testing people's limits to do things, not worded like this but you get what I mean, but I found nothing. Could you link please, will be greatly appreciated, thx in advance.

Seeing this does make me feel somewhat sorry for you, which is probably the emotion you were trying to give to me, and I do see where you're coming from but I want to say that this is not the same case. And the reason I say that is because a job choice, and job choices generally you only get 1 degree, you would obviously want something you love. For games its different, you are not bound by something, you're not forced to pick, therefore you have the option to try everything, allowing you to fall in love with something you hated at the start.

My point was - I didn't gave a fuck about what my parent wanted, i was doing what i loved, i studies what i love, now i am doing what i love which is programming in category of database and network security applications, mainly backend logic alghorithms. So why this little story - to bring into light that even for me, when I love programming it took time to learn things, i spent a lot of time in IDE creating code from scratch, testing it, trying different algorithms to solve problems. One could say this wasn't fun from 3rd person perspective. It was fun from my own perspective and despite spending lots of time pretty much wasted on creating something which later on i just deleted due being retarded, it ended up giving me stronger understanding of language itself. Nothing was wasted.

Well honestly, this is your life down. You really got limited options and I'm glad to see you chose something you enjoy.

Oh well, dunno if i will add something to this, I don't like to split things which are pretty much logically obvious in term of majority as test subject.
hf

You know, it makes me sad the fact that instead of an exchange of idea. You have made this discussion into a combat, a brawl of who is better.

If a music critic says Beethoven is not the most famous of all time, that person is not a music critic.

But doesn't boring translate to not fun?

Judo champions have strict routines, they are not bodybuilders, not stretchers or splitters. People don't go into judo thinking of doing the splits, or lifting weights/rolling weights. They go in to throw people. But that is certainly not how you train judo. They train tour rolls, make you do splits to ensure you're flexible, train you cores to make sure you can endure the rotation of your body, point is, these are boring as hell. Sure there are some maniac out there that loves this, but most people will hate it. 30 min straight repetition of a small task is boring for anyone

Rule:
Person A is self taught
Person B is taught extensively

You really got limited options

I respect you as a poster, your knowledge but I am just saying what I think.

Could you link please, will be greatly appreciated, thx in advance.

[Taiga] wrote:

No, i just see that few people told you same thing what i was trying to tell you in any possible way, yet you stay your side. That's sign of EoT for me. Just few things to clarify:

Probably because I haven't been able to be convinced by you, I think you're talking about being forced to do something whilst I'm talking about when you're passionate to do something, or takes blood and sweat to improve. If you haven't seen already, a lot of people already know what I'm talking about.

That's why there are many critics and all of them have solid arguments on their way to support judgement.
It's not the "choice" what wins critics dispute, it's arguments and way how they are expressed and supported by facts.

How famous one is, has a deciding factor. All you need is numbers. Sure there is no sign of who is the best composer of all time, but there is definitely a most famous composer of all time.

No, this are two different things

So you're telling me, people who study, complaining it's boring, could also be feeling fun at the same time?

The definition of boring is not fun, please

I was training Aiki-do for over half year till our Dojo in city got closed due low amount of people interested in this.
I gave this example for a reason.
You need to love this kind of activity to learn basic kata. Not mention tons of people came and resigned after few trainings.
No, despite i had sleepless nights due pain in wrists, legs but all of this just reminded me how much heart and "blood" i throwed to make another step and learn something.

Yes you do, and that is exactly what I'm talking about. You put in heart and blood to improve in something, not have fun to improve. Sure, you may find fun in Aikido, but you're probably not gonna find the basic rolls fun. I learnt Krav Maga fyi (useless info). One more thing, not trying to be a dick but Aikido does not have a "-"

Putting different variables is illogical. If you want to make experiment like that, you need to make both targets on same variable.
Either both self taught or both taught extensively.
What you done here is like trying to compare fixed point number to floating point number. Difference is that both numbers are completely different in arithmetic.

What I'm demonstrating here is not illogical, all other factors are remained the same. What I'm demonstrating here is training is more important than fun. Obviously I see that you agree with me.

Bullshit, i am type of person hungry for informations. It's just common sense to learn what you like, study what you like, end up university in what you like than going somewhere else because of money. I have potential to go study law, be a lawyer but why? I am not interested in this, i don't feel fun in this, yet i am aware it could give me few times more money than i am earning now. Fuck this, i prefer work which gives me fun, work what i enjoy and where i can be extremely productive than work which gives tons of money and will just tilt me every fuckin day due being anti-fun at all. Remember, you will not buy sanity with money, you may just lose it because of it.

Why can't I be a physicist and a biologists and a programmer and a lawyer at the same time? Why couldn't you be a lawyer and a programmer at the same time? Because you got limited options... limited by time. What else did you think I mean...

Vice versa.
Sorry but logic often doesn't fit philosofical dispute and this one is definitelly one of them.
For me in discussion there is only black and white, 0 and 1 so you may have this feeling.

Logic always fits in philosophical disputes, we are just not advanced enough to understand and predict human behaviour, my opinion anyway.

Stop using colors, it just makes whole text hard to read

No.

Will check book, it's what i remember from history about people threatened in death camps. Dunno if i find english transcription, if not, sorry.

One more thing, not trying to be a dick but Aikido does not have a "-"

[Taiga] wrote:

One more thing, not trying to be a dick but Aikido does not have a "-"

You are right, i tend to miss this thing between Aikido and Aiki-jō. Mea Culpa.

Blitzfrog wrote:

But what if I told the other guy I will kill him if he doesn't beat the other guy, he will focus more, he will not waste any time. Some of you might say, hey he is going to be frustrated, which will reduce hisbabiloty to learn, ill say no. When under threats like these, adrenaline comes into play. You start reacting faster, muscles become faster due to increased blood flow, you enter deep breathing, allowing more oxygen to be taken on and used by the muscle. Basically you go into superman mode

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

This applies to physical sports but not so much in music. This effect only increases your physical capacity not your higher mental capacity. In this state the pre frontal cortex essentially shuts down(which is used to listen to music) which is why its important to be in a relaxed state, not in a fight or flight state when playing music.

Blitzfrog wrote:

You're right! This in fact doesn't help with physical sports as well since the subject was about learning not performing. It was a very poor example. Maybe a better example would be a reward, where you are given a reward for beating the other person

Playing for fun is not the best way to improve?

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Blitzfrog wrote:

You're right! This in fact doesn't help with physical sports as well since the subject was about learning not performing. It was a very poor example. Maybe a better example would be a reward, where you are given a reward for beating the other person

I've seen studies where extrinsic rewards decrease intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is very important for learning.