1. osu! forums
  2. osu!
  3. Feature Requests

Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?

Yes
50.79% 96
Yes, with a negative multiplier
21.16% 40
No
28.04% 53
Total votes: 189
Polling ended 2012-10-08 10:50:57
Polling is over and can not be voted on anymore.
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,563
show more
posted
This would break CtB.
posted
@theowest: Again, part of skill is being able to read both higher and lower ARs, if you can only read one or the other, then that's just something for you to improve on.

Part of rhythm gaming is also being able to read the notes.
posted

theowest wrote:

BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.

It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
Good. Then we're agreed that Hidden and Flashlight should be worth 1.00x, because they change none of those things. Same BPM, same sliders, same distances, same OD, same drain, and the same circle size. And just like AR, once you've memorized a map, you can play it AR13, Hidden, and Flashlight with no difference from playing it any other way... because none of these things change the map in a way that makes it easier or harder, or even different. All three do exactly the same thing... control the flow of information, but not alter it. Which is a good reason to be wary of just making AR a preference... the same sort of thing is rewarded elsewhere, and things that get score rewards are considered "skill". This is not a trivial choice to make and has to be done right.
posted

theowest wrote:

The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.

The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.

BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.

It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/915

Play the Insane on this and tell me it doesn't affect gameplay. Some players just don't appreciate AR until they see a map that relies on it to be difficult.
(I'm aware it's a very old map example, but it's a very clear example that proves AR does affect gameplay. Hard is the exact same mapping with lowered stats. turn hardrock on that map to further clarify my point. )
posted
Yes for easy mod!

If anything else, then no.
posted
Just sayin here, for games like O2Jam, beatmania IIDX or games with note speed, I prefer to use lower multipliers.

When x4~x5 was the famous multiplier on O2Jam and while about 80% of the users used those, I prefered to use x2.5. But that doesn't mean I'm noob or somewhat like that, actually I was better then 80% of other players. It just depends on how we think.

However It's kinda nonsense to call AR a difficulty because mappers decide AR to help players read most comfortably, not to make it harder or something like that. If there is a mapper who thinks "hehe I'm gonna make this AR10 and make players struggle!!" that map is never gonna get ranked.

Big black and airman? actually, some people feels better with AR10 on those. remember that most of decent maps are most comfortable with default AR for most people, but adjustable AR would be good feature to have because people are different.
posted

theowest wrote:

It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.

But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone's happy.
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
posted
if this got implented i would be able to hr so many more songs because i cant read AR10(ar8/9HR), just set it to AR5 or 6 and boom instant HR FC. thats not the point of HR, HR should increase the AR, being able to change the AR makes the whole mod a joke.
also people saying ar9 is so much easier than ar8 for every insane player.. i have more trouble with it than with ar7 or 8.
posted

haha5957 wrote:

However It's kinda nonsense to call AR a difficulty because mappers decide AR to help players read most comfortably, not to make it harder or something like that. If there is a mapper who thinks "hehe I'm gonna make this AR10 and make players struggle!!" that map is never gonna get ranked.
And this is why it was split from OD, before the AR a map would have would be equivalent to it's OD.


@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
posted
The reason people want this is because they will be able to change fucked up ARs so they can play it perfectly.

Just like the beatmap you gave me, it's not the AR people would want. Let everyone have the AR they want, because ARs are never agreed upon by everyone. What makes that beatmap hard is the OD9, I can read AR9 perfectly, but OD9 is fucking hard sometimes, especially with terrible spacing and not the best offset and the timing sounds off. The ones who've been able to play have just adapted to it.

I can read AR9 + hardrock ARs but I still can't play it very well. Want to know why? Because the OD. That's what makes hardrock hard, oh and the circle size.

Kyou-kun wrote:

I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.

It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.


Sakura wrote:

@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.

Let's check the past.

Lybydose wrote:

Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.

By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.

It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.
No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?

mm201 wrote:

Matty wrote:

If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing.
Perfect spacing is a must with slow AR. If the map is confusing, the BAT should tell the mapper to raise the AR.
A beatmapper have more control over a BAT or a MAT. Just look at the recent thousand maps.

awp wrote:

Let's just let players make/customize their own maps. That way EVERYBODY is happy. Because that's the direction we're going, here.
well said. We're trying to entertain everyone here, right? You want to be able to play a map without having to be annoyed by the one thing most people are annoyed by. The AR. Today, most of the beatmaps have a good AR but there are always some beatmaps with shitty ARs.

mm201 wrote:

AR depends on the mapping. Taking a high AR map and lowering it will turn it into a confusing clusterfuck. Another map could be designed for the low AR, have no overlaps, have readable spacing, and work just fine.

A 210bpm Easy with AR10 is just stupid.
Here's a better guide: Pick an AR so that there aren't more than 4 objects onscreen at once. More if you (the mapper) are really good at dealing with overlaps.

Shael wrote:

it would be nice, because some people are not used to lower ar than 9
This is a skill they should develop. inb4 extreme case shit where maps not designed for low AR get their AR changed.
Pretty much, but since everyone who makes maps doesn't know what the player wants, beatmaps will become confusing clusterfucks.

We already know that higher ARs are harder for some and easier for others.

This would've been so much easier to implement in the past, because you're now afraid of change. Have any of you ever played other rhythm games with user definable ARs? Did you enjoy it? Well everyone could enjoy it because every could use it.

It isn't just going to make it easier for you, but also for everyone else. Nobody's happy with the AR on a beatmap? Fine, let everyone just change it to their preferred AR then. Everyone gets this advantage.

I just don't see how this change would change anything but make more people happy. The one who will change thier AR will not get the advantage over you, because you can do the same fucking thing.

rickyboi wrote:

I like this idea because of all the rythm games I've played. Osu is the only one that has no adjustments for speed readings.
Looks like someone have played other rhythm games. Why don't you all try the idea before you hate it? Have you guys seriously played another rhythm game with user definable ARs? Try it. See for yourself. That's what made me change my opinion on things.

Don't even bother replying to this. I won't reply again. I don't care anymore. Let the developers (peppy) do whatever he wants. He does seem to have a positive attitude to this idea anyway.

It's all draw towards your same argument all the fucking time. Yes, it does fucking make it easier/harder. But since some beatmaps are broken and people are not happy with that, people will be able to change the AR and everyone will be happy. It won't be unfair since everyone can change it. How is that hard to understand?
posted

theowest wrote:

Lybydose wrote:

Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.

By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.

It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.
No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
As Lybydose points out, the ship has already sailed for just simply allowing it as a preference now. Two of the plus mods are the same thing as AR in a different wrapper, and the other two alter it. AR is fundamentally tied to the things that give more points and thus get recognition as "skill". Which is why you can expect things like AR only to be able to be increased (as peppy brought forward) if it's just a simple preference people can set... that would help protect the value of HR, because otherwise it would be largely cancelled out for so many maps that it wouldn't be worth any bonus (even where it might still apply). This makes things more like what Henry Ford said about the Model T, "you can have any colour you want, so long as it's black". There might not be a real choice for everyone, and that would be unfair by your own reasoning.
posted

theowest wrote:

Sakura wrote:

@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.
Actually, in this case, it's better to look at it in the way Sakura did. Most people who simply said "No" will be okay if it was negative, but would just prefer it not being implemented at all, and vice versa.

Also, I'm sure a lot of people will at first see this poll and think "ohey AR customization, I want this so its easier" and so they choose Yes without thinking about how it effects the game - they just want it to be easier so they can get a better score. I bet after some users actually start reading this thread about all the reasons to -not- allow this, they have changed their mind (which probably explains the gradual decrease in the number of people who actually agree to do this without a penalty).

theowest wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.

It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.

Maps with poor and stubborn AR will not get ranked, just like the wrong offset on a beatmap. You are the one here that is missing the point. You want this game to be playable by everyone. If you want AR to be user definable so that it can help the map be playable by everyone, changing the speed of the map does the same. Its just one is a more obvious skill requirement than the other.

Taken from the feature request for having more keys to stream with (which also makes the game easier):

Zarerion wrote:

Uhm...
This is seriously being discussed?
"I can't do this, because it's too hard and I'm too lazy to practice, make it easier!!"

I mean, what the fuck? This whole idea is ridicolous, it would totally destroy the whole osu!-gameplay.
posted
@Makar, you are breaking your logic yourself.

Makar wrote:

He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.
Airman and bigblack with AR8 would be horrible and unreadable. Hell yeah, agrees.

Then why not just let them do that? it would be even harder when they do it. People who disagrees with adjustable AR, are against it mainly because they think it would make this game easier for everyone.

However, it's been said that the default AR will work best for most people and it's ridiculos to say that adjusting AR would make this game easier.

You are breaking your own logic by yourself : You're saying adjustable AR would make this game easier, thus not a good thing. but at the same time you are saying that adjusting AR would make most of maps harder.

If adjusting AR makes a map easier, then that kinda means that map sucks. just like some of maps have wrong offset, they have wrong AR. Then we should be able to adjust that .(for offset, we use + and - as you know)

What's so wrong with this?

It's just this simple : Let them adjust their AR because adjusting AR would make it harder. However if it actually makes it easier, then the map's AR is wrong just like how some maps have wrong offset.

I can't understand how you are saying "ah...default AR is da best! AR adjusting is unnecessary." and "Adjusting AR would make this game easier" at the same time.
posted

theowest wrote:

You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well.
I just saw this and it made me scratch my head. what the hell is this statement

"plays well"? what's "well"? That's the most subjective statement I've ever seen. If you'd ask me, every single map ever plays better with AR10. There's plenty of maps, especially for songs above 240bpm, where AR10 reduces the amount of stacking and makes the map a whole lot more readable. It definitely plays WELL and much BETTER like that. Examples for maps: Big Black, Slotcore, Sacrifice, Assailant, Creator. No matter what you say, even if you can't read AR10, try to play those with AR9 (or lower) and it'll make them harder. All of those are a lot more readable with AR10 than anything below it.

Also, I've seen beatmappers who put AR9 on [Hard] difficulties for low-bpm songs, and it gets ranked, so I don't see the problem? (meanwhile some 200bpm Insanes like Chousai Kenbo use AR8, wtf? AR9 would've made it much more playable). In the end, mappers make maps the way they like. You should stop assuming AR is some global stat that can be perfect for each map; the mapper should feel free to pick his own difficulty tuning based on his preferences and the modding process should not eliminate this either.

If you play a map for ranking purposes, accept the mapper's settings and learn to play by them.
But if you just play for fun, why should the game restrict the ways you're allowed to enjoy it? One of osu!'s strongest points in the open-edit. Other games without open-edit have died quickly because people basically just 'tried everything out' and got bored. Meanwhile games with an open map editor and editing options (starcraft, unreal tournament (UDK+mutators), etc) have lasted for years because people always had new things they could try out.

More freedom is always a plus. Just add it in a way that doesn't hurt ranking and you're done. Why do you people make it so much more complicated than it really is.
posted
Aqo is right.
I can only repeat myself, AR is chosen by the mapper to fit the specific map. Changing it would be equal to changing the map, which would be cheating.

And if this gets implemented, it MUST have a negative multiplier. However, it must reduce the score enough to make sure one can't get top scores by reducing AR and using HR. I would suggest x0,5, in order to make sure this is an fun/practice-only-option.
posted
@haha5967: Most of the time people complain about AR because it is too hard for them to play (too high or too low). If the AR chosen by the mapper is a poor choice of AR, that will result in a bad map/ratings. But, a bad map is a bad map. If you don't like it, don't play it. There's nothing we can do about poor OD/HP choice either, and im sure nobody will want to allow adjusting that because some mappers suck at choosing a good OD/HP. The same applies to AR.

FYI if you want to challenge yourself at a hard AR, just edit the beatmap yourself and it won't even count towards your rank (and I'm sure you dont want it to count if you truely are adjusting just so you can test yourself. However, if you are adjusting the AR because it is too hard and you want it to be easier, then again I will say it needs to be a difficulty decreasing mod.

Really, Easy mod just needs to let the player adjust their own difficulty settings and you will get what you want.
And yeah, I agree with Aqo and Zarerion. This way, everybody gets what they want.

EDIT: lolwtf ~+100SP and ~13 votes in the past hour? hrrr
posted
Looks like a lot of people want this.
posted

theowest wrote:

Looks like a lot of people want this.
nah just 31415926535897 and a few others who spam SP
posted
pi gave 32 supporter stars somehow, I didn't know it was possible to have that many on one person!!
posted
you can save them.
show more
Please sign in to reply.