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Make Approach Rate function for user definable option

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Total Posts
391

Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?

Yes
96
50.79%
Yes, with a negative multiplier
40
21.16%
No
53
28.04%
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,757
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winber1
The first three words of my monologue answered the question. The first paragraph was a little more detail the unranked aspect of this request.

The rest of the paragraphs were in response to allowing for players to change AR even for ranked plays.
silmarilen
hey, lets make it so you can change the circle size, od and life drain aswell.
i totally dont support this, AR is part of the map. and if you want to play with a different AR, fine, but then you play unranked.
its like getting rid of a stream and put a slider or a spinner or something because you cant play streams.
HakuNoKaemi
how about allowing to choose from -0.5 to +0.5 so, if a map has AR9, you can choose from AR8.5 to AR9.5 ?
peppy
I am unsure of whether adding this is a good idea or not. My personal opinion is that it should be allowed (with possible restrictions or changes for HD/FL to ensure visibility is the same), but even after reading through this thread, opinions are split.

I have added a poll to this thread, so please make your opinion known by voting.
Aqo
The poll makes it unclear whether it's user-definable AR for ranked play or for unranked play which is where the main split in opinions comes from. Everybody would oppose user-definable AR on ranked plays, while they wouldn't mind it to exist as an unranked option.
peppy
For ranked plays, specifically. You should know I don't believe in this whole "unranked" thing :P.

Though alternative, a negative multiplier could be applied when the AR isn't default.
Michi
Supported
iHateFatPeople_old
This is one of the most stupid feature requests ever. Something like this would render Double Time and Hard Rock useless. Osu is fine the way it is.
peppy
You may think it is stupid, but a lot of people have upvoted this, so I am looking to get an overall opinion on the matter in form of numbers. Feel free to add your vote :).

Also, as I mentioned, for mod play there would likely be restrictions. And quite possibly you would only be able to increase the AR, not decrease.
Tom69_old

peppy wrote:

Also, as I mentioned, for mod play there would likely be restrictions. And quite possibly you would only be able to increase the AR, not decrease.
Totally supporting the "only increase" part. That way high AR still keeps its difficulty.
Sakura
I kinda like being able to only increase the AR, lowering makes stuff more cluttered anyways.
Canneh
I do agree with pepz, by only being able to increase and not decrease the AR.
Evanlet
+1 for increasing AR only.
Aqo
It's actually kinda funny that you say only increasing the AR would keep its difficulty.
If you could do that, ranked, most people would increase the AR of all AR8 maps to 9 and it would make them 20 times easier to play, meanwhile the option to decrease AR to 7 would've potentially made those same maps way harder.

If you just added this with a score-reducing factor with no limitation on AR range it would be muuuuch better imo. That way you don't hurt current rankings (nobody would complain that suddenly people get rank for free on AR8 maps because they could increase it, or anything of that sort, because your score would be penalized) and at the same time people who want to change AR (which is usually people who only play for fun and don't care for rank anyway) would be able to do it freely with no limitations without throwing off the balance of osu!'s competitive aspect. I'm sure players like Millhiore would enjoy being able to set AR to lower amounts and it would open a ton of fun play possibilities (that are /harder/ because of the lower AR), without hurting anybody else who's not interested in playing like that.

(either way, it would be great if you finally allowed players to pick ARs higher than 10 without DT. Preferably with 1/3 increments, since 1AR = 150ms difference, 1/3 would be 50ms. In anything post-AR10 that 50ms makes a large difference)
winber1
honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.

no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Aqo

winber1 wrote:

honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.

no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Lets say I'm in the mood to play a random map that I like with AR10.3 today, without aiming to rank on it in the scoreboard - it would still add into playcount and account statistics ofc i.e. score reduction effect. (and if I wanted to rank on it for max score, I'd have to play it with the default map AR).

Does this hurt you in any way? why do you oppose this?
Isn't it a win-win situation to give players more features without taking away existing game behavior? What do you have against this

afaik the only argument against letting players pick their AR when playing is that either lower or higher AR can lead to scores that are otherwise too-hard to get, making it unfair for players who previously weren't able to get those scores without adjusting their AR. Since this is the only problem, the obvious solution is to make it so that you can't get better scores by changing the AR, and then everything stays fair. Do you have any other argument against this?
Mirage
Please. Please please please please please please please please please please please
Zare

winber1 wrote:

honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.

no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Exactly my thoughts.
Being able to change the AR just feels wrong.

increasing only sounds interesting, but seriously, who would increase AR9 to AR10? (except for people like Aqo, but oh well..)
AR10 breaks the flow of the map in most maps below 200~ BPM, which is why it's never used.
And for most players, AR7 is not very different from AR8 oder 9 gameplay-wise, so no real need for doing that...

I could live with it if would really reduce score, but I would probably never use it ._."
Layne_old_1

Zarerion wrote:

increasing only sounds interesting, but seriously, who would increase AR9 to AR10? (except for people like Aqo, but oh well..)
<-- ~
SteRRuM
yes!! i support ONLY increasing ar! idea good very
bwross

Aqo wrote:

It's actually kinda funny that you say only increasing the AR would keep its difficulty.
If you could do that, ranked, most people would increase the AR of all AR8 maps to 9 and it would make them 20 times easier to play, meanwhile the option to decrease AR to 7 would've potentially made those same maps way harder.
Yeah, it just doesn't seem right to shift the power even more to the mole whackers and away from the map readers by allowing them to turn any map into whack-a-mole and not allowing the same to be true for people that want to do the reverse (and really, it's only a small number of maps that push their AR too high and result in a map where it feels like you're spending half your time waiting for the next hit circle to pop up so you can whack it (as opposed to the mole whacker aggravation of feeling like they're spending half their time waiting for approach circles to close)).

The whether the player is increasing or decreasing the AR, since the program can't really judge the effect on difficulty, for game balance you have to assume that the map has been made considerably easier regardless of setting (even if they're intentionally making it hard on themselves... the program can't know that unless it's made to be able to judge difficulty accurately, and that's extra tricky because difficulty is somewhat subjective). Which is why I think if it is allowed, it should be allowed in either direction (because either way can be easier or harder, there isn't a difference in allowing one or the other), and with a score penalty.
Anzo
Support, but I prefer to limit the define setting to AR+1 or AR+2,
so that in easy or normal maps, you can't go AR9 in a difficulty with an AR3, but you can adjust it to AR4 or AR5.
theowest
Current Priority: +265
Most people think this is a good idea. Most of the people not agreeing with this doesn't even play much osu!
Pizzicato
slow AR's harder to read anyway :3

support
rickyboi
Only increasing the AR? That's fine I guess, but this only gives advantage to the players who are good with high AR. The ones who can play or likes (eg. val0108 or CXu) to play AR 8/7/6 or even lower has the disadvantage here. This again limiting the potential of different kinds of players god damn it.
Pizzicato
i'm fine with the fixed AR because some maps look ugly with fast/slow AR.the mapper picked that certain AR because he/she thinks it's the best AR for his/her map (imo)
Makar
Meh I think it should decrease score since it makes it easier for a lot of people.
As I said before, if it makes it easier, it should decrease score. If it doesn't make it easier for everybody, then the people who don't get anything from it will be at a disadvantage (and no, please don't allow AR to be lowered; either way it should decrease score since its a difficulty decreasing effect)
winber1
can i use my votes to take away 2 votes from this
MillhioreF

rickyboi wrote:

Only increasing the AR? That's fine I guess, but this only gives advantage to the players who are good with high AR. The ones who can play or likes (eg. val0108 or CXu) to play AR 8/7/6 or even lower has the disadvantage here. This again limiting the potential of different kinds of players god damn it.
increase only makes me sad, I do best with ar8... oh well~
peppy
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>

Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally :P.
jesse1412

peppy wrote:

Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>

Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally :P.
Sorry but AR is something set by the mapper, this is A LOT more important to a map than a SB is and as such I think it should be left alone. Some maps would be made insanely easy with higher AR's which is completely unfair to older players.
peppy
I also think it would be refreshing if we could throw away the whole "unfair to old plays" attitude and objectively consider possible improvements, but that is a hard fence to jump.
jesse1412
This is a great and a terrible thing, I wouldn't mind having some things changed but this is certainly one of the things I can see taking the charm out of a lot of maps.

mtmcl, kirby, djpop, reiken and even blue dragon are some of the most iconic mappers in osu! and they all have used low approach rate in their most impressive maps, it would be sad to see people beating them with high approach rates on their first and second try, it really does effect difficulty a lot more than people realise.
RBRat3
What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
jesse1412

RBRat3 wrote:

What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
fair enough, but I'd like to see it off for older maps.
RBRat3
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
theowest

RBRat3 wrote:

I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.
RBRat3

theowest wrote:

RBRat3 wrote:

I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.

Having it go into effect for all will murder old scores and its unfair to those who earned them...
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )

Having it the way I just proposed would make everyone happy
-Oldhats keep their scores
-You get your feature
-Mappers can force AR Rate or keep it open by choice
-You can have an older beatmap AR opt-able upon request with a fresh score slate
Aqo
Guys you're going in circles...

Once again, the only, literally the very single "problem" anybody raised for letting players change the AR on any map ever made to any AR they want on ranked play is that it would make certain plays easier and thus not deserving for the same score as default AR plays.

Solution: give it a score-reducing factor.

Isn't this enough? Why are you looking for other solutions? This is by far the most optimal one.

Only letting users pick higher AR: this is stupid. Reason: once you learn to read a certain AR level, it will ALWAYS be easier for you to play with it, regardless of map bpm. Which means all HR players would only play everything with AR10 and it would make everything much easier for them, and so on.
Like jesse said, a large part of the appeal in AR is actually the added difficulty from lower ARs (forcing you to remember more events ahead). If a feature exists to let users pick any AR they want, it should definitely let users pick lower ARs, because that'd be the most fun part of it.

Only allowing this on new maps: again, bad. Why would you take this freedom away from old maps? really no reason.

I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Sakura

RBRat3 wrote:

If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.

Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
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