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Satoshi with Pikachu (CV:Matsumoto Rica/Otani Ikue) - Alola!

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Nao Tomori
.

01:05:805 (1,2,3,4) - this entire pattern is just dumb
the acceleration effect is completely unexpected and super hard considering that you never use anything remotely comparable anywhere else in the song
also, you said it's to highlight the HAI thingy but if you were doing that why would you put it in a pattern with 01:06:197 (4) - which is on a completely different layer? the hai thing has no emphasis as it is atm cuz you arent even holding down on it, a rhythm like http://puu.sh/wbQwE/82ff9a4bd7.jpg would work a lot better.
anyway, the spacing on this triple is way too hard as it is, it needs to be lowered a bit since atm it is giant diff spike

01:09:922 (2,3,4,5,6) - you literally use 90 degree angles NOWHERE in the map with any comparable spacing. your example is a different motion entirely due to the fact that the triples reset the cursor movement, so it isnt as weird. meanwhile, this amazing square of yours does NOT have triples in it, which means that its a bunch of 90 degree angles which have no precedent in the map, and at really high spacing so its just out of nowhere.
this just feels like "i need some big jumps now! fullscreen square!!" with no setup or anything. a pattern with sharper angles fits a lot better here in the context of the rest of the map.


let me know when you fix these issues so i can remove this pop!
Pentori
nao:
01:05:805 (1,2,3,4) - your interpretation of this isn't actually how it plays. the slider leniency from 01:05:609 (5) - lets u leave the slider a lot earlier meaning there is no acceleration bs
01:09:922 (2,3,4,5,6) - similar flowing wide patterns are used elsewhere 00:21:099 (2,3,4) - 00:24:040 (1,2,3,4) - 01:22:079 (1,2,3,4) - so it didn't really feel out of context so to speak, but the spacing could be reduced

what fascinates me is why you didn't bring these points up in your first pop if they're such big issues
ZekeyHache
too much gold
Xinely
i checked nao's pop issues and i dont find something big problem to make pop but well, lets wait the mapper to response and we can go again

anyway for first nao's mention. i dont find something weird with big spacing stream on the diff since its 3rd insane and must be the hardest insane on the mapset. just throw my cents
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
hihihi I'm here

01:05:805 (1,2,3,4) - for this one uuh I think I wasn't being clear enough and I sincerely apologize for that. "I was trying to accelerate the gameplay (aka cursor speed) in the way that it peaks at the HAIII" there." I was trying to emphasize the transition phrase in general; the gameplay speed peaks at the hai sound cuz well why not xd. I also know that this is a spike but I believe that this particular spike is reasonable and is not that huge as you said. Now brand me a dumb mapper as well cuz I like this dumb pattern.

01:09:922 (2,3,4,5,6) - "lastly i don't think 90 degrees is that large." My point was that this square jump doesn't stand out in terms of gameplay. I thought you meant something aesthetic wise so I mentioned the pattern with the triples. Imo this blends well with the map and this is just another pattern with high spacings xd.

Thanks for your concerns nao~
Nao Tomori
first off, it wasnt my intent to "brand" anyone a dumb mapper. if you feel that that's my goal, then rest assured that it isn't.
second, i didn't bring this triple up, admittedly, but i did bring this square up the first time i popped the map.
regarding this triple spacing:
@pentori: the slider leniency is indeed a factor, and the fact that it's there means that there's even less momentum into the triple so the spacing of the triple is creating that acceleration.
@cryst: yes, i think the cursor speed peaking there is perfectly fine, my issue is that you don't use this type of acceleration thingy anywhere else so it's very sudden. this is problematic because it plays really weirdly and creates a big diff spike in a way that isn't repeated or shown before. you can avoid this issue basically by either reducing the spacing (which you clearly don't want to do) or by raising the spacing into the triple itself, which also would help create a faster cursor movement at this point.
furthermore, 01:06:001 (3,4) - this thing is still kind of weird to me; you emphasize the HAI part, but then cut off the emphasis and switch to drums while mapping them the same way as the vocal that you're supposed to be highlighting. i also proposed a solution to that, a 1/2 slider could basically just let you highlight the HAI for a bit more since the player would hold down on it.

regarding this square:
@pentori: you'll notice that none of those wide angle patterns are using this high spacing, which was my main concern, aside from the visuals and how much it stands out from the rest of the map.
@cryst: i still say, the pattern does stand out in terms of game play, because most of the largest jumps in the map (in sections like 00:45:805 (7,1,2,3,4) -, 01:04:040 (4,5,1) - ) are sharp angles, and the entire map uses patterns like 00:39:138 (5,6,7,1,2,3) - 01:11:491 (3,4,5,6) - 00:08:550 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - which produces back and forth movement. most of the linear patterning is at small spacing, and is linear in nature which is different from these right angles.
in terms of aesthetics it also stands out since most of the map is based on patterns that use very small visual spacing, like 00:16:197 (1,2,3) - , 00:23:060 (4,5,6,7,8) - 00:47:373 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - 01:02:471 (5,6,7,8,1) - etc etc, and this giant square is one of the few that has little relation to other surrounding patterns, therefore it is out of place.
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
Here's the thing tho; the square pattern 01:05:020 (2,3,4,5) - was nerfed before cuz it was too huge of a spike. With that nerf I now believe that the spacing here is okay and it flows into the triple there well. The rhythm you suggested makes the strongest drum in the set on 01:06:197 (4) - 's head unclickable so eeeh im not really into that. Imo the rhythm rn is okay considering both emphasis and playability.

And yes I still believe that the square doesn't stand out lol. Nonetheless gonna nerf it a bit and I hope this middleground is more acceptable for you xd. All my maps have these difficulty plateau kinda thing because of emphsasis and stuff: hence the large spacings. The patterns in the kiai are bigger than those in the verses (ea. 01:01:883 (1,2,3) - 01:03:060 (8,1,2,4,5) - ) to support the larger spacings.

also fixed color hax in all diffs.
Plaudible
can we rank this already pls its been lik 3 years
Nao Tomori

CrystilonZ wrote:

Here's the thing tho; the square pattern 01:05:020 (2,3,4,5) - was nerfed before cuz it was too huge of a spike. With that nerf I now believe that the spacing here is okay and it flows into the triple there well. The rhythm you suggested makes the strongest drum in the set on 01:06:197 (4) - 's head unclickable so eeeh im not really into that. Imo the rhythm rn is okay considering both emphasis and playability. as i explained, my issue with this is the out-of-place acceleration that is required for 01:05:805 (1,2,3) - which constitutes an undue diff spike. to avoid this, increasing the spacing between 01:05:609 (5,1) - seems like the best idea since the degree of acceleration needed will be reduced.
regarding 01:06:001 (3,4) - this is weird because you mapped the hai (01:06:001 - ) and then 2 drums (01:06:197 - ) the same way, when it makes sense to differentiate them since theyre different instruments. if you don't want to make the player hold down on the HAI, how about making both drums at 01:06:197 (4) - clickable since they're both rather strong?



And yes I still believe that the square doesn't stand out lol. Nonetheless gonna nerf it a bit and I hope this middleground is more acceptable for you xd. All my maps have these difficulty plateau kinda thing because of emphsasis and stuff: hence the large spacings. The patterns in the kiai are bigger than those in the verses (ea. 01:01:883 (1,2,3) - 01:03:060 (8,1,2,4,5) - ) to support the larger spacings.
as i explained, the spacing of this square pattern is not the problem. the issue is that you never use similar angles or visuals anywhere else in the map. if you put an X shape jump, or a more back-and-forth type, or even a pattern with a wide angle like a diamond (http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8289311) then it would fit better and this issue would be resolved.
refer back to my previous post about why i believe that the angles and visuals are a problem rather than the spacing, and sorry if i didnt make that clear enough.



also fixed color hax in all diffs.
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
This argument is way too long lol
Well I hope this will be my last reply regarding this matter.

Naotoshi wrote:

my issue with this is the out-of-place acceleration that is required for 01:05:805 (1,2,3) - which constitutes an undue diff spike
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The acceleration is not out of place and the diff spike is not undue. They are both intentional to emphasize the transition. Also, imo the acceleration atm is fine and comfortable to play already.

Naotoshi wrote:

regarding 01:06:001 (3,4) - this is weird because you mapped the hai (01:06:001 - ) and then 2 drums (01:06:197 - ) the same way, when it makes sense to differentiate them since theyre different instruments. if you don't want to make the player hold down on the HAI, how about making both drums at 01:06:197 (4) - clickable since they're both rather strong?
Well this matter has been brought up several times tbh. You can read my replies to these if you view my previous replies to mods and stuff. Anyway uhh take my word for this: I have tried every rhythm I can with my mediocre mapping skill and here's why the other ones don't work as well as this one.

The map atm plays like this: the speed gradually builds up starting at 01:04:628 (1) - then reaches the peak at 01:06:001 (3,4) - then suddenly drops with the 0.75x SV slider 01:06:393 (1) - and lastly returns to normal at 01:06:785 (1) - .

Now if I were to change 01:06:197 (4) - to two circles I would need to do something like 00:59:922 (1,2,3) - to make the map playable and not too cancerous, but that is not something I want because right now the sudden speed drop at 01:06:393 (1) - is emphasizing the start of the second kiai part really well.

and with the rhythm you suggested i could do something like lengthening the 01:06:001 (3,8) - slider to 1/2 and increase the SV to keep the momentum going but that's not something I want either because firstly, as I said, it makes the strongest drum in the set unclickable and secondly the circle at 01:06:295 needs even higher DS than 01:05:805 (1,2) - which is a really inappropriately huge diff spike.

Tbh this is all about the emphasis choice which is subjective af. You might want to emphasize the hai sound but I prioritize 01:06:393 (1) - more. I admit that this rhythm makes the emphasis on the HAI thing a bit weak but with all things considered I still think this is the best choice xd.

Gonna reply to the other part later. I have stuff to do rn xd ok i'm back and it's 3am woohoo

If we're solely considering the visuals, there are a number of square based patterns bth, but most of them being 1/4 stuff lmao like 01:05:020 (2,3,4,5) - 01:12:863 (2,3,4,5) - and also some stuff are a bit hard to identify as a square like 01:00:118 (3,1,3,5) - 01:06:393 (1,1,3,5) -

Anyway uhh speaking about gameplay the square pattern here is one of those with circular flow and with 90 degrees stuff. Well maybe this is the only pattern that uses the circular flow, 90 degrees angles and high spacing together. Nevertheless I don't think the pattern sticks out that much visually or gameplay-wise. The reason is probably because lots of patterns in the kiai use these circular flow high spacing concept as well like 01:00:903 (3,4,5,1,2,3) - 01:07:177 (3,4,5,1,2,3) - except that they are triangle-square-ish stuff eeh idk. Well that's my best attempt at explaining why the square doesn't stick out that much xd.

The thing that has been keeping this argument going for so long is that these are very subjective issues. You have reasons to back your argument up and so do I. This has been a cycle of this is not okay because of A and this is okay because of B and repeat lmao and I don't expect you to understand every shit I map tbh cuz sometimes I don't even understand myself as well

K that's all
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
hello nao?
mochi mochi?
Plaudible
hey nao you're an all star
ZekeyHache
mochi mochi?
Nao Tomori
? i already explained my view 4 different ways and got an answer like 'no it's fine, i said it's good so it's good' so my veto is here still lol
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
I've explained a lot as well why I think they're fine lol
Yea okay keep your veto it's totally fine to have different thoughts
but next time on whatever map pleaseeee make it clear so that the mapper doesn't need to wait for like almost 4 weeks
Xinely
can you guys disscuss together in game and find the solution in better way which both can agree instead of keep your mindset each other?
Mir
SPOILER
10:39 CrystilonZ: hoi mir
10:39 Mir: hoi
10:40 CrystilonZ: r u free for a check i'm kinda desperate rn lmao
10:40 CrystilonZ: if not can you look at a pattern i want your input
10:40 CrystilonZ: or maybe two patterns
10:40 Mir: ermm not a full check but i can take a look
10:40 CrystilonZ: oki
10:40 *CrystilonZ is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1139533 Satoshi with Pikachu (CV:Matsumoto Rica/Otani Ikue) - Alola!!]
10:40 CrystilonZ: the highest diff
10:40 Mir: okay
10:41 CrystilonZ: 01:05:020 (2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4) - and 01:10:118 (3,4,5,6) -
10:42 Mir: 01:05:805 (1,2,3) - this seems a bit much
10:42 Mir: especially with how 00:59:922 (1,2,3) - was spaced
10:42 Mir: 01:02:275 (3,4,5) - this somehow is also higher spacing than the former which is stronger so i don't get that either
10:43 Mir: 01:10:118 (3,4,5,6) - this is fine
10:43 CrystilonZ: o so
10:43 CrystilonZ: 00:59:922 (1,2,3) - the (3) has slow SV tho so idk about that
10:44 Mir: doesn't matter o.o
10:44 CrystilonZ: hmm probably gonna nerf the spaced triple a bit i guess
10:44 Mir: change of movement gives more emphasis anyways
10:44 Mir: so if you have a spaced triple into super slow slider that slider gets a lot of emphasis
10:44 CrystilonZ: and also cancerous af lmfao
10:45 Mir: true lol
10:45 CrystilonZ: ya did that on 01:06:393 (1) - but 00:58:648 (1,1) - is pretty cancerous already lmfao
10:45 Mir: whats the pokemon in the back
10:45 CrystilonZ: which one
10:45 Mir: ... there's more than one?
10:45 CrystilonZ: o
10:45 CrystilonZ: solgaleo
10:45 Mir: 00:58:648 (1) - also consider ending this on the white tick please xD
10:46 CrystilonZ: considered and nop blue tick is t a s t i e r
10:46 Mir: what is recovery time anymore
10:46 CrystilonZ: nao kinda popped bcuz of the square and the spaced stream lol
10:46 Mir: personally i think [http://i.imgur.com/5SQFCD9.png this] is spicier
10:47 Mir: square is kind of out of place but nothing major
10:47 CrystilonZ: aw
10:47 CrystilonZ: why don't just go 1/16
10:47 Mir: the spaced stream is yea
10:47 Mir: that is 1/16
10:47 CrystilonZ: hm hm hm
10:47 CrystilonZ: alright gonna nerf the spaced
10:47 CrystilonZ: o is the square out of place
10:47 Mir: yeah like
10:47 Mir: it's the only square
10:48 Mir: but not only that
10:48 Mir: it's the only explicitly geometrical shape in the whole map
10:48 Mir: circle-wise at least
10:48 Mir: the reason it's only KIND OF out of place is 01:05:020 (2,3,4,5,1) -
10:48 CrystilonZ: rly? lol i always use triangles
10:48 Mir: yeah but not squares
10:48 Mir: i mean
10:48 Mir: triangles like
10:48 CrystilonZ: maybe those triangles blend in and become sharp angles i guess
10:49 Mir: everyone knows them
10:49 Mir: yeah they just
10:49 Mir: nobody cares
10:49 Mir: but squares are something you don't see as often so they're more noticeable
10:49 CrystilonZ: oo
10:49 CrystilonZ: ic ic
10:50 CrystilonZ: thanks a bunch mama mir <3
10:50 Mir: noperobelemoe
10:50 CrystilonZ: post this on the thread for 2 free kudos
10:50 Mir: oh BOY
10:50 *Mir is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1134359 Satoshi with Pikachu (CV:Matsumoto Rica/Otani Ikue) - Alola!! [Z-Insane]]
10:50 Mir: i mean
10:51 Mir: ./savelog

We talked about the pop things and Crystil is changin things I think ye
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
FREE KUDOS
alrighty nerfed the spaced stream and make the square not a square i guess
Pentori
k stuff seems to be fixed
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
\o/ thx a lot pentori
Xinely
placeholder, gonna see after work
Xinely
Yosh, lets see this in qualified
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
omg omg omg omg

Thank you so much xinely <3

QUALIFIED
Kaitjuh
The next 7 days are gonna be great for sure
Chalwa
Ayyyyy... Congratz <3
Plaudible
omg finally
ZekeyHache
weeeee~
Venix
congratz!
Pachiru
congratz boiiiii ;)
Kyouren
Congrulation-Z!
Akasha-
wow congrats, it took some times
and that nullghost's art tho
I Must Decrease
placeholder
Plaudible
o no
ZekeyHache
y
Keru Kawashiro
hype is real
Topic Starter
CrystilonZ
thanks a bunch everyone o/
polka
Congrats crys!!!
Keru Kawashiro
eyy congrats!
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