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Dream Theater - Moment of Betrayal [Taiko]

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frukoyurdakul
DTDTDTDTDTDTDTDT

CONGRATS!
KamizonoShinobu
Sorry but I have some words about this chart before this goes to approved map.
AstONIshing
OD7? You sure to use this on a BPM160 map? OD6 is enough for me already. Nonsense high OD just simply interfere gameplay experience on this map.

  • Before 00:21:119 (68) - , The density is so high compared to the upcoming parts. However, the previous part is calmer compared to the upcoming parts. This, imo, needs to be fixed. Imo you overmapped the beginning too much, let's say the d you used at the beginning. e.g. 00:00:508 (2,4,6,8,9,13,15) - etc. simply cut off the emphasis of the k with the piano fxs. Therefore I would like you to delete all the unnecessery d.

    01:00:508 (120) - onwards I feel like more ddk can be used to further emphasis the beats.

    01:05:753 (155,156) - kk? Could've emphasis 158 further. Besides, Arrival and I both agree that 01:05:661 (154,155,156,157,158) - should be considered with another 5plet pattern, or even make it 3-1.

    01:21:489 (269,270) - imo this has to be same finishers cause theese notes are both emphasis the heavy drum sounds. As they are emphasizing the same instrument, why don't you use DD /KK ?

    02:31:703 (738) - why k? It lost emphasis to the next note.

    02:33:727 (756) - why d? same reason as above.

    02:47:072 (844,845,846,847,848,849) - dkd kkD? makes the pattern fun to play. ddk ddk is too boring for pros imo.

    02:49:464 (859) - this is so inconsistent with the previous kddkddk 1/2s you used before.

    03:05:845 (947,948,949) - I would rather make it 1/6 dddk, I know you want to emphasis 949 with finisher but thats not how it should be done in this case. using a denser d is better to emphasis 949 at this case.

    04:10:814 (1446) - is finisher really necessary here? The fx here more or less has the same tone compared to others.

    04:22:593 (1539) - imo this could be a D cause you are emphasizing the drum instrument. It could also add emphasis between that and 04:22:962 (1540) - .

    04:29:219 (1588,1589,1590,1591) - kkdd is so awkward in this case. We seldom use these 1/6 patterns in the stream. I recommend kkkd.

    04:41:366 (1652,1653,1654,1655,1656,1657) - use dk dkdk. Be consistent with the previous patterns you used.

    05:01:060 (1755) - Why suddenly a d here? It's inconsistent with 04:57:931 (1731,1735,1739) - and is awkward to play as well. You need to fix this part in to a consistent one, follow k xxx k xxx structure. Similar problem were found in later parts

    05:17:072 (1906,1907,1908,1909,1910) - if you are making streams here why don't you just connect everything before 05:17:808 (1911) - ? It looks like the stream is left with fragments at last and is awkward in terms of structure and gameplay.

    05:23:452 (1957) - similar reason above kkdd

    imo you need to recheck the patterns you used at the last non-kiai parts. I myself feels strange on playing that part, probably you need to emphasis the instrument better.

Sorry, but tbh I don't think this map is ready for approved at this state. This could be a moment of betrayal, too?
Stefan


Oh boy, where did you summon them? Not like they would disqualify the map if necessary but.. you know, that is still scary.
OzzyOzrock
All those points seem really opinionated and not real reasons to disquality, tbh.
Surono
subjective so depends the mapper and better to wait the mapper response, this map was qf'd for 2days tho.
Topic Starter
mangomizer
I will get round to this later today. (12+ hours)
Doyak

Stefan wrote:



Oh boy, where did you summon them? Not like they would disqualify the map if necessary but.. you know, that is still scary.
I just saw this first time now lol

I think that appeared because I was looking at another qualified map's thread, as it says "Users browing this forum", not thread.
Topic Starter
mangomizer

Chocola_2287 wrote:

Sorry but I have some words about this chart before this goes to approved map.
AstONIshing
OD7? You sure to use this on a BPM160 map? OD6 is enough for me already. Nonsense high OD just simply interfere gameplay experience on this map.

  • Before 00:21:119 (68) - , The density is so high compared to the upcoming parts. However, the previous part is calmer compared to the upcoming parts. This, imo, needs to be fixed. Imo you overmapped the beginning too much, let's say the d you used at the beginning. e.g. 00:00:508 (2,4,6,8,9,13,15) - etc. simply cut off the emphasis of the k with the piano fxs. Therefore I would like you to delete all the unnecessery d. Not a valid concern in general, I am simply following the music. Many ranked maps exist where the difficulty changes quite significantly, mine can hardly be called an extreme example, when it really lasts for ~10 seconds... there are maps with 10 second breaks O_o.

    01:00:508 (120) - onwards I feel like more ddk can be used to further emphasis the beats. Please be more specific.

    01:05:753 (155,156) - kk? Could've emphasis 158 further. Besides, Arrival and I both agree that 01:05:661 (154,155,156,157,158) - should be considered with another 5plet pattern, or even make it 3-1. Firstly, tell Arrival he should voice his concerns too, if he has any.
    Secondly, I see no advantage of ddkkD over dddkD. If anything, I don't want to overemphasise 158, but I need it to stand out, hence my choice. 3+1 is an acceptable alternative, but 5-plet matches the background fx more.


    01:21:489 (269,270) - imo this has to be same finishers cause theese notes are both emphasis the heavy drum sounds. As they are emphasizing the same instrument, why don't you use DD /KK ? To reflect the decrease in pitch of vocals.

    02:31:703 (738) - why k? It lost emphasis to the next note. Pattern Variety, please, you do all this the time in Weave Detonator and you bring it up with me??? Lol where is to CONSISTENCY.

    02:33:727 (756) - why d? same reason as above. ^

    02:47:072 (844,845,846,847,848,849) - dkd kkD? makes the pattern fun to play. ddk ddk is too boring for pros imo. Boring for pros? It's only 6 notes lol. Stop complaining. Not a valid concern

    02:49:464 (859) - this is so inconsistent with the previous kddkddk 1/2s you used before. But I did it here too 02:37:869 (787) -

    03:05:845 (947,948,949) - I would rather make it 1/6 dddk, I know you want to emphasis 949 with finisher but thats not how it should be done in this case. using a denser d is better to emphasis 949 at this case. You would, but I'm not you. I'm trying to stick to the drum as closely as possible, and I hear 1/4th, then cymbal crash, hence xxX

    04:10:814 (1446) - is finisher really necessary here? The fx here more or less has the same tone compared to others. Not necessary, but it gives additional emphasis, so that's why I put it there. to mark the start of a new phrase.

    04:22:593 (1539) - imo this could be a D cause you are emphasizing the drum instrument. It could also add emphasis between that and 04:22:962 (1540) - . You don't seem entirely convinced.... either works, my decision was based on pitch.

    04:29:219 (1588,1589,1590,1591) - kkdd is so awkward in this case. We seldom use these 1/6 patterns in the stream. I recommend kkkd. Umm.... no. That's not really a valid reason. What matters is that it matches the music, and the flow with kkdd is better than kkkd. kddd would be an acceptable alternative, but that is more awkward to play imo (and doesn't match the music quite as well, though it is a close tie).

    04:41:366 (1652,1653,1654,1655,1656,1657) - use dk dkdk. Be consistent with the previous patterns you used. Lol wut I'm just following the drums :(

    05:01:060 (1755) - Why suddenly a d here? It's inconsistent with 04:57:931 (1731,1735,1739) - and is awkward to play as well. You need to fix this part in to a consistent one, follow k xxx k xxx structure. Similar problem were found in later parts You are right about the consistency, however, this is where I took some creative liberties and allowed the map to be more flexible and complex in the final section. You have to be joking to say if it is awkward to play though (holy shit like, ddk k kkd is wayyy more awkward than ddk d kkd).
    I also wanted to increase the difficulty of this final section, it is downright impossible to map the suggested k xxx k xxx format, without making it sound super awkward, and not fitting.


    05:17:072 (1906,1907,1908,1909,1910) - if you are making streams here why don't you just connect everything before 05:17:808 (1911) - ? It looks like the stream is left with fragments at last and is awkward in terms of structure and gameplay. Ease transition into finishers.

    05:23:452 (1957) - similar reason above kkdd No "Nishit" patterns pls, they don't even fit in this case.... of all the viable 1/6th+1/4th patterns (believe me, I've tried them all), this one was the most suitable in my opinion.

    imo you need to recheck the patterns you used at the last non-kiai parts. I myself feels strange on playing that part, probably you need to emphasis the instrument better. Please elaborate, give examples.

Sorry, but tbh I don't think this map is ready for approved at this state. This could be a moment of betrayal, too? Your concerns seemed very subjective in my opinion - while I appreciate your willingness to help, I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with your suggestions as they do not make much sense to me. Also, if you're doing this purely out of spite (ala "moment of betrayal"), then I don't even know why you would even bother smh.
Nardoxyribonucleic
Disqualified as requested by creator for a difficulty name change.
Stefan
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/559371
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/603069

sorry if I interrupt here :P but I believe there should be a clear limit what's "unrelated to the song" and what's "unrelated unrelated". The two examples are unrelated to the songs or to their meanings and had no complains in getting them ranked. While I see that the capitalization was probably the thing that looks silly to some users I don't think it's completely necessary. my 2ct
Topic Starter
mangomizer
Just drop it. The capitalisation was stupid, but it was fun while it lasted. The song deserves a proper diff name rather than a meme in all honesty. And I'm not too bothered with waiting.
Stefan
Well, that is the better decision anyways. It's just weird how easily you can go through with "such names" in Standard but that's all. Hope to see the map ranked soon. :eyes:
Nardoxyribonucleic
And back as no gameplay elements are affected upon the change.

Approved~
Surono

mangomizer wrote:

Just drop it. The capitalisation was stupid, but it was fun while it lasted. The song deserves a proper diff name rather than a meme in all honesty. And I'm not too bothered with waiting.
there is time for fun and for serious, yeah enough fair.

"rank map is srsbns" -DekakadoDakededekakane
Bonsai
Oi, since this was DQd for a bit already I'll now post properly what I mentioned to mangomizer somewhere else already but didn't have enough time to finish yet:
  1. Sections like 00:11:550 seem like they're supposed to keep Nightcore's cymbalcrash-pattern intact, but that's far from correct. Concerning this area here, there's already a 'missing crash' at 00:05:660 while there's one occurring at 00:08:605 which doesn't fit, so that section would already have to be placed there. This sorta thing obviously repeats a few more times in the intro and also later on at 01:40:261 where you didn't even 'fix' it at 01:46:151 etc.
  2. If you actually set the timing sections correctly according to that previous point, you won't need those clusters like 00:21:487 - 00:22:223 - 00:22:962 anymore as your two-barline-issue doesn't occur when the pattern has been fixed at 00:17:070 and you wouldn't need a sections at 00:22:962 anymore anyways because it's obviously already fixed LOL
  3. Now if you actually care about those cymbalcrashes, 00:48:728 is a very ridiculous one lol, so if you wanna have it more correct you'd need to add a section at 00:47:991
    In a similar manner 04:07:133 is a weird crash too so that could need some sort of tweaking around too
  4. 03:22:593 - I don't think spots like these are correct measure-wise, I see that your timing here is coming from the note-pattern that starts repeating at 03:24:617 but rhythmically that seems completely unnatural to me even though I've listened to as many songs odd time signatures that I could find lately - From 03:22:593 to 03:26:089 you've got a eighth-note-rhythm of 3-3-2-3-3-3-2, and in patterns like that the "2"s are usually foreshadowing accentuated beats - The beat after the first "2" is 03:24:065 which would be the downbeat if you keep the signature running at 4/4, so everything would fit in that way, that's why I personally find it extremely weird to delay the downbeat another "3" like you did - My suggestion is to time it like this (which is missing NC-fixing-sections at 03:27:561 etc. I guess but it's just a mess anyways lol). There isn't really an objective "true" or "false" when it comes to signatures, so I'm not 100% sure about it myself, but I just feel like that's much more natural so just take that into consideration and do whatever you want with it, none of my other odd-measure-friends are online rn so I couldn't ask for more opinions on that rn ^^
  5. Again a NC-fix-section would be missing at 03:43:575 if you wanna have it properly, which would also make the one at 03:55:354 superfluous
  6. Also 05:24:066 seems like it should be a downbeat instead of 05:23:698 -, I'm too tired to find a way to make this work for NC rn tho
  7. I see that you timed the final part at 05:25:538 following the guitar, and again there is no objective right or wrong probably, but I just gotta say that having kicks and snares at half-tempo-offbeat at 05:31:428 - 05:32:164 - 05:32:900 - etc seems extreemely weird to me, I'd suggest this timing following the drums instead of the guitar because to me drums are a much stronger indicator of rhyhtm than guitars, and the stuff that the guitars are doing is just weird either way so ya idk, think about it xd
timing (dream theater) is a happy thing : )
so ya, as it is now the NC-stuff is only halfway fixed so if you actually care about that I think I listed everything there is to change, ofc feel free to poke me if you have any more questions, I gotta go to bed rn lol
OzzyOzrock
bless
headphonewearer
O nooo
Topic Starter
mangomizer
Alright before I even get into this response, I will say that Dream Theater timing is rather ambiguous and only Dream Theater themselves know "the true timing" for 100%. Also regarding your posts about NC cymbalcrashes, I don't really see the point? The point of Nightcore is to keep a steady beat, not the placement of cymbalcrashes. The reason why my current NC fixes are there is simply because the NC beat does not remain constant in those areas (eg. double beats). So I will ignore any comment made regarding cymbal crashes.

Mod Stuff

Bonsai wrote:

Oi, since this was DQd for a bit already I'll now post properly what I mentioned to mangomizer somewhere else already but didn't have enough time to finish yet:
  1. Sections like 00:11:550 seem like they're supposed to keep Nightcore's cymbalcrash-pattern intact, but that's far from correct. Concerning this area here, there's already a 'missing crash' at 00:05:660 while there's one occurring at 00:08:605 which doesn't fit, so that section would already have to be placed there. This sorta thing obviously repeats a few more times in the intro and also later on at 01:40:261 where you didn't even 'fix' it at 01:46:151 etc.
  2. If you actually set the timing sections correctly according to that previous point, you won't need those clusters like 00:21:487 - 00:22:223 - 00:22:962 anymore as your two-barline-issue doesn't occur when the pattern has been fixed at 00:17:070 and you wouldn't need a sections at 00:22:962 anymore anyways because it's obviously already fixed LOL
  3. Now if you actually care about those cymbalcrashes, 00:48:728 is a very ridiculous one lol, so if you wanna have it more correct you'd need to add a section at 00:47:991
    In a similar manner 04:07:133 is a weird crash too so that could need some sort of tweaking around too
  4. 03:22:593 - I don't think spots like these are correct measure-wise, I see that your timing here is coming from the note-pattern that starts repeating at 03:24:617 but rhythmically that seems completely unnatural to me even though I've listened to as many songs odd time signatures that I could find lately - From 03:22:593 to 03:26:089 you've got a eighth-note-rhythm of 3-3-2-3-3-3-2, and in patterns like that the "2"s are usually foreshadowing accentuated beats - The beat after the first "2" is 03:24:065 which would be the downbeat if you keep the signature running at 4/4, so everything would fit in that way, that's why I personally find it extremely weird to delay the downbeat another "3" like you did - My suggestion is to time it like this (which is missing NC-fixing-sections at 03:27:561 etc. I guess but it's just a mess anyways lol). There isn't really an objective "true" or "false" when it comes to signatures, so I'm not 100% sure about it myself, but I just feel like that's much more natural so just take that into consideration and do whatever you want with it, none of my other odd-measure-friends are online rn so I couldn't ask for more opinions on that rn ^^ Hmm... I'm really not sure here. Time signatures are always subjective - you can completely transform how a song feels simply by the emphasis of strong beats. Here I think (3+3+2)/8 is not the right solution, because I feel that the following sections would lose a bit of momentum (as it is a monotonous 3+3+3 etc,). If you use 11/8, the "12th beat" has an interesting repeating emphasis? Not really sure how to explain, but I feel it carries the momentum slightly better.
  5. Again a NC-fix-section would be missing at 03:43:575 if you wanna have it properly, which would also make the one at 03:55:354 superfluous
  6. Also 05:24:066 seems like it should be a downbeat instead of 05:23:698 -, I'm too tired to find a way to make this work for NC rn tho VALID, but applying different fix. Turning the entire section into 3/4, not sure, reqeusted DQ from JBH
  7. I see that you timed the final part at 05:25:538 following the guitar, and again there is no objective right or wrong probably, but I just gotta say that having kicks and snares at half-tempo-offbeat at 05:31:428 - 05:32:164 - 05:32:900 - etc seems extreemely weird to me, I'd suggest this timing following the drums instead of the guitar because to me drums are a much stronger indicator of rhyhtm than guitars, and the stuff that the guitars are doing is just weird either way so ya idk, think about it xd I'm actually follwing the synth when it changes pitch...lol
timing (dream theater) is a happy thing : )
so ya, as it is now the NC-stuff is only halfway fixed so if you actually care about that I think I listed everything there is to change, ofc feel free to poke me if you have any more questions, I gotta go to bed rn lol
JBHyperion
DQ on mapper request to fix some timing signatures.

Might as well try and throw my 2c in here since it's timing related, feel free to agree or disagree:

  1. Not sure what progress happened prior to this regarding downbeats and NC mod, but if you're gonna try and make it NC-friendly and ruin a great song but that's beside the point, do it for the whole thing to avoid a weird half-and-half mix
  2. 03:22:593 - This definitely sounds better as 4/4 + 7/4 to me as Bonsai suggested
  3. 05:25:538 - Either current or suggested metronome works here for me, really depending on whether you wish to follow drums or guitar+synth, so up to you
Topic Starter
mangomizer
Will be put on a brief hiatus for now (~2 weeks?). I have other stuff to get on with in the meantime.
Topic Starter
mangomizer

JBHyperion wrote:

DQ on mapper request to fix some timing signatures.

Might as well try and throw my 2c in here since it's timing related, feel free to agree or disagree:

  1. Not sure what progress happened prior to this regarding downbeats and NC mod, but if you're gonna try and make it NC-friendly and ruin a great song but that's beside the point, do it for the whole thing to avoid a weird half-and-half mix
  2. 03:22:593 - This definitely sounds better as 4/4 + 7/4 to me as Bonsai suggested
  3. 05:25:538 - Either current or suggested metronome works here for me, really depending on whether you wish to follow drums or guitar+synth, so up to you
OK 1st point ignored, it simply is really hard to judge and is totally subjective.
Thought about the 2nd point, stuck with current.
Surono
rip caps intensifies on diffname

05:24:066 - fixed two vol. conflict
Topic Starter
mangomizer
Alright Round 3! Let's see what thing will DQ this map next!
Surono
o no, you seems hypee with that. X"d
Topic Starter
mangomizer
Alright really need to stop popping my own bubble, but now it should be 2 DQ's and 2 bubble pops.
Timing points should be fixed, if you have issues COME FIGHT ME.
Bonsai
Surono
Timing of Betrayal
Stefan
Timing is not a happy thing.
frukoyurdakul
WOOOOOOOOOOOO
Surono

Stefan wrote:

Timing is not a happy thing.
bcus same thing x'd
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