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A word about insufferable elitism within the osu!-community

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N0thingSpecial
The thing is that I highly doubt people who vote for the maps they say they love actually plays the map extensively, the more I look at the list the more I think "this is just a list of maps for people who wants to see cookiezi playing it", which leads to the question "do these people actually like the map for the right reason?".

Why would you love something that less than 0.5% of the community is actually going to enjoy it, it becomes more questionable when a map is regarded as low quality getting loved, such as maps like red like roses, especially when there's another red like roses which is imo higher quality, but just because it doesn't have jumps as big as the popular one it was completely disregarded. Do we really want to discourage quality by attacking people who just simply have a better understanding in mapping?

The love section is indeed community base but if the community is not aware that the maps that they want to get loved are low quality, then you're gonna end up with maps that are low quality in the loved section. I mean just look at how democracy worked out for UK when they voted to leave EU.

By no means I'm saying the maps in the loved section are shit, something indeed can be fun despite being low quality, but it bugs me to hell that mappers who actually deserve the publicity for putting in the effort to improve their mapping, never got the chance cause their maps aren't hard enough.
KtkC
(For what it's worth, a division between the good and bad players would happen in pretty much any community-driven game with skill/rank being a distinguishing factor, don't get too caught up on it)
(And I have no opinion on which map should've won, note how new I am anyways)

Given the literal definition of this LOVED category the quality of the map isn't grounds for appeal; it's purely community driven.
Also, you should expect more "objectively worse" maps to win out in the future in this category too, and pay no attention to it if you're a top player, honestly. lol

If you want to split up LOVED, that's a fine idea as well.
1. (Experienced Choice - top x000 players' votes only, or from a designated panel of users)
2. (Community - anyone can vote)

The top-tier players have good reason to be upset that their favorite didn't win, though.
It's not really an example of elitism to be upset about the results, but some of the histrionics I just read might approach that.
Jukkii
preach n0thingspecial. you said what i wanted to try and say in a really good way.
i think that red like roses shouldnt be loved, because that would be kinda pointless, it hold no value. basically what endaris said but id like to add a little to it.
the map getting loved just gets like leaderboards...
who do you think is gonna fill those leaderboards? definitely not the 100ks that voted for it.
the "elitists" will play it to show that they are superior to the 100ks, not cause they love it. and even if a 100k gets like 5000/6000 rank on the map its definitely not as important as the ones in top 50. it would cause even worse elitism.
Stefan
Guys, it's about to click

the

circles.

What the fuck, the category has been added to give maps which are unsuitable for the rank status an own leaderboard and to give the attention to the public audience they deserve. If someone dislikes the beatmap because <put any random reason> then let them be, holy crap. The category is dedicated is widely dedicated for the high tier players and for a little part of the other gimmick-related beatmaps (such as Fake It).

If you can't accept people calling said beatmap as shit, you're not better than the guys complaining about the choices. But go ahead and destroy the purpose of the category.
N0thingSpecial
Oh yea and I think that the voting system itself is flawed. Having a larger percentage doesn't always mean it's more popular, it's just the larger minority liking the map there's still several other groups of minority who indirectly oppose that 1 larger minority. So calling it communities choice was kinda misleading

But hey forum voting system is limited ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
winber1
umm, its either yes or no, so there is a majority and a minority. whether or not that majority is the "acitve" population of forum posters/"good players" is another question, but technically speaking they are still part of the "community"

it's not like you can just exclude them for being new
Yuudachi-kun
Haha look another useless railey thread intended to make argue for 10 pages
N0thingSpecial

winber1 wrote:

umm, its either yes or no, so there is a majority and a minority. whether or not that majority is the "acitve" population of forum posters/"good players" is another question, but technically speaking they are still part of the "community"

it's not like you can just exclude them for being new
OK extreme situation but my point is that lets say there's 3 maps for loved and you can only cast on vote, and he results are two maps with 33%, and one map with 34%, in the current system the map with 34% would be in the love section, but technically there's 66% of the voters oppose that one map being loved, so despite being the "majority" it's not an accurate representation of what the community wants
Caput Mortuum
Well, the voting system is temporary anyways. It will be replaced with a better system in the future.
winber1

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Haha look another useless railey thread intended to make argue for 10 pages
arguably more worthwhile than browsing classic G&R shitposts and repeated questions

man idk why i still browse this shit

fuck
Flimsy

N0thingSpecial wrote:

I mean just look at how democracy worked out for UK when they voted to leave EU.
Lol? Looks like it turned out pretty well.

It's not suddenly bad when you don't get it your way. Not even making a stance on Brexit, but this example is actually just silly.

What's with forums mostly composed of anime fans / weeaboos and making really out-of-touch with reality comparisons to voting on a game where the end result still means nothing? Hitler, ISIS, Drugs, Brexit. It's really something. Tune into next time where we compare low ranked players voting on a fun-intended category to eugenics and who is and isn't allowed to do something based on some subjective stance.
Fxjlk

N0thingSpecial wrote:

OK extreme situation but my point is that lets say there's 3 maps for loved and you can only cast on vote, and he results are two maps with 33%, and one map with 34%, in the current system the map with 34% would be in the love section, but technically there's 66% of the voters oppose that one map being loved, so despite being the "majority" it's not an accurate representation of what the community wants
They don't always oppose the map being loved, they usually just prefer it over another. If the community could instead rated the maps by 1-10 rather than there being a binary vote or not vote you would see a different story.

KtkC wrote:

If you want to split up LOVED, that's a fine idea as well.
1. (Experienced Choice - top x000 players' votes only, or from a designated panel of users)
2. (Community - anyone can vote)
I like this idea

-Jukke- wrote:

who do you think is gonna fill those leaderboards?
They may not fill the top of the boards but that doesn't mean they don't use them to compete with their friends. Though I agree that the better players probably use the boards more.

Stefan wrote:

What the fuck, the category has been added to give maps which are unsuitable for the rank status an own leaderboard and to give the attention to the public audience they deserve
Good point, public attention is the other important purpose of the loved category that more competitive players probably forget. This loved category isn't ranked and is more about maps the community likes rather than competitive maps that are unable to be ranked.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

do these people actually like the map for the right reason?
Then the follow up question is how can you tell? I think this aspect of voting is ignored because there is no real way to factor this into the system without it losing its democraticness.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Haha look another useless railey thread intended to make argue for 10 pages
Oh look another khelly post adding nothing to the discussion.
Backfire
Yall wild 😂👌🏻
Yuudachi-kun

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Haha look another useless railey thread intended to make argue for 10 pages
Oh look another khelly post adding nothing to the discussion.
You think I care about whether or not I'm adding to this meaningless discussion whose only purpose is to just incite meaningless G&R shit

I'm just here to point out that: This is like the 4th time Railey feels like he has to do this
Fxjlk

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

You think I care about whether or not I'm adding to this meaningless discussion whose only purpose is to just incite meaningless G&R shit

I'm just here to point out that: This is like the 4th time Railey feels like he has to do this
Fair enough, I understand if you don't want to get involved. Though the actual points discussed is interesting if the drama is disregarded.
Full Tablet

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

N0thingSpecial wrote:

OK extreme situation but my point is that lets say there's 3 maps for loved and you can only cast on vote, and he results are two maps with 33%, and one map with 34%, in the current system the map with 34% would be in the love section, but technically there's 66% of the voters oppose that one map being loved, so despite being the "majority" it's not an accurate representation of what the community wants
They don't always oppose the map being loved, they usually just prefer it over another. If the community could instead rated the maps by 1-10 rather than there being a binary vote or not vote you would see a different story.
The problem with a system where people people rate maps by 1-10 is that different people have different standards for which value means what (some people would consider "5" average, "7" outstanding, and "10" incredibly good; while some people consider "9" average, and "10" good).

Also, it is prone to abuse: people when they vote, want to maximize their own voting power, so if they think a map deserves a rating of "8", for example, they vote "10" instead to make sure the rating is pushed up (voting "8" would just be a weaker vote).

Instead of a rating system for votes, a better system would make each vote consist of a ranking of candidates from best to worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_tr ... te#Example
Fxjlk

Full Tablet wrote:

The problem with a system where people people rate maps by 1-10 is that different people have different standards for which value means what (some people would consider "5" average, "7" outstanding, and "10" incredibly good; while some people consider "9" average, and "10" good).

Also, it is prone to abuse: people when they vote, want to maximize their own voting power, so if they think a map deserves a rating of "8", for example, they vote "10" instead to make sure the rating is pushed up (voting "8" would just be a weaker vote).

Instead of a rating system for votes, a better system would make each vote consist of a ranking of candidates from best to worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_tr ... te#Example
That is a good system for a small candidate pool but when many maps are considered 1-10 is best. If every person had do list their preference for every map over each other it would be exhausting for the participants. That's why they use the 1-10 system on myanimelist, imdb, etc
Full Tablet

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Full Tablet wrote:

The problem with a system where people people rate maps by 1-10 is that different people have different standards for which value means what (some people would consider "5" average, "7" outstanding, and "10" incredibly good; while some people consider "9" average, and "10" good).

Also, it is prone to abuse: people when they vote, want to maximize their own voting power, so if they think a map deserves a rating of "8", for example, they vote "10" instead to make sure the rating is pushed up (voting "8" would just be a weaker vote).

Instead of a rating system for votes, a better system would make each vote consist of a ranking of candidates from best to worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_tr ... te#Example
That is a good system for a small candidate pool but when many maps are considered 1-10 is best. If every person had do list their preference for every map over each other it would be exhausting for the participants. That's why they use the 1-10 system on myanimelist, imdb, etc
Including everyone on the list in each vote is not mandatory
Fxjlk

Full Tablet wrote:

Including everyone on the list in each vote is not mandatory
Ok i guess its better then, my bad.
repr1se
Let's be real. There's going to be drama (read: cancer) where Internet users are allowed to disagree.
Fxjlk

Full Tablet wrote:

The problem with a system where people people rate maps by 1-10 is that different people have different standards for which value means what (some people would consider "5" average, "7" outstanding, and "10" incredibly good; while some people consider "9" average, and "10" good).

Also, it is prone to abuse: people when they vote, want to maximize their own voting power, so if they think a map deserves a rating of "8", for example, they vote "10" instead to make sure the rating is pushed up (voting "8" would just be a weaker vote).

Instead of a rating system for votes, a better system would make each vote consist of a ranking of candidates from best to worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_tr ... te#Example
Maybe a better system would be a combination of both systems. 1-10 is simpler for the voters but gives unequal power in some situations. If however the 1-10 rating list of each user was converted into an equivalent STV preference list this system would have the advantages of both systems. Simple and fair.
N0thingSpecial
M3ATL0V3R you're solo carrying this thread to 10 pages
Fxjlk

N0thingSpecial wrote:

M3ATL0V3R you're solo carrying this thread to 10 pages
Threads are a team effort but ill try my best not to post ;)
Xyrus_old_1

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

N0thingSpecial wrote:

M3ATL0V3R you're solo carrying this thread to 10 pages
Threads are a team effort but ill try my best not to post ;)
Don't give up!
winber1

N0thingSpecial wrote:

M3ATL0V3R you're solo carrying this thread to 10 pages
or maybe he's solo-throwing it
Sayorie
don't worry Railey2, I'm doing this for the meme
Finally done with this piece of worthless thread. Crap, Railey2, when you started making threads like "The reason why tablet is (probably) better than mouse." and <and some other posts>, I actually started getting my hopes up that you were finally going to break out of your terrible "The reason you can (probably) never become a pro at osu" stage and start cranking out truly admirable posts. Even though some of your recent posts raised a red flag or two, I still had high hopes. And then this self-indulgent pretentious abomination gets vomitted onto G&R. This is not only your worst thread, but possibly the worst thread I have ever seen. Why? Others were bad as satire, ignorance, age, or inexperience. You qualify for none of these categories, you have no excuse.
Believe me, I have nothing against insight, be it criticism, haphazard analyses, or speculative writing. And I have no problem with someone in the osu community bringing out a healthy discussion as a flagship of broadening horizons. What I do have a problem with is that you, the person bringing it, have absolutely no respect for the community or its structure. At the slightest hint of frustration or annoyance, you are more than happy to start disregarding the the mantra of "play more" and just throwing ugly and pointless posts where you just criticize the topic or concept to anything you feel like, no matter how awful the end thread becomes.
This vulgar excuse for a thread reeks of every stupid and arrogant Raileyism the community has had to bear witness to: Extreme fallacies with no logical reasoning, sky high cynicism at random times, ideas that just decide to jump to some random irrelevant topic with no warning, buckshot spread theory with no cohesive structure, giving examples that space out to absurd degrees, rampant abuse of "please don't get me wrong" to cover up lazy writing, scientific hodgepodge that clearly are just cases of Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V abuse, and worst of all, using online disinhibition as your own little shield to justify every little moment of "I can write this because fuck you, you don't know me in real life" you can stuff in your pathetic and self-subservient posts.
Stop using this board as canvases for your abhorrent "insight", stop using your cult of personality to force your offensive ideas on others, and stop thinking that everyone is not good just because we don't have the talent to supplement our hard work.
Fxjlk

N0thingSpecial wrote:

M3ATL0V3R you're solo carrying this thread to 10 pages

Xyrus wrote:

Don't give up!
-Makishima S-
Fuck this drama thread like every other recent railey whining.
If even pro player come and mix railey with stinky shit, it must mean something. More, as far as i lurk in Wilchq twitch channel since he started streaming, he is very, i mean very nice person, something really pissed him in this thread.

M3ATL0V3R you have balls of steel to even bathe in this shit, i admire you.
Fxjlk

[Taiga] wrote:

If even pro player come and mix railey with stinky shit, it must mean something. More, as far as i lurk in Wilchq twitch channel since he started streaming, he is very, i mean very nice person, something really pissed him in this thread.
Thats not wilchq its AmaiHachimitsu who is married to wilchq.
-Makishima S-

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

If even pro player come and mix railey with stinky shit, it must mean something. More, as far as i lurk in Wilchq twitch channel since he started streaming, he is very, i mean very nice person, something really pissed him in this thread.
Thats not wilchq its AmaiHachimitsu who is married to wilchq.
Oh right, yet Amai is also nice guy, didn't heared from him to be rude and toxic towards other people. One thing what amaze me here about polish community is that top rank elite players from poland are very nice people, unlike other games like lol / csgo where greater amount of top polish players are toxic cunts who waste oxygene.

At the end this topic like every other by Railey got proven to be horseshit, imo just move on and let it die.

Peace, yo!
I Give Up
i like map play all map
Cookiedipp
please enjoy game
gooder101
I don't really know what's the problem,but at one point every map that people want to be "loved" will achieve this status so there is no reason to complain,right?
winber1
it's time to stop existing
N0thingSpecial

winber1 wrote:

it's time to stop existing
Was there ever a good time to exist?
winber1

N0thingSpecial wrote:

winber1 wrote:

it's time to stop existing
Was there ever a good time to exist?
back when the 3rd dimension didn't exist yet
repr1se

N0thingSpecial wrote:

winber1 wrote:

it's time to stop existing
Was there ever a good time to exist?
Before mankind
Topic Starter
Railey2

Endaris wrote:

Agreeing on points is vital part of a discussion, so don't skip it.
I do recall the old OP of the feature request being much shorter indeed. Not going to search that up but I guess we can call the second part of my previous post void.
Iirc the old title clearly targetted gimmicky maps though. It had the keyword "gimmicky" in its title at least.

What you're criticising in this thread is the reaction of players on what the mysterious preselector-dude aka Ephemeral+pals made out of that idea.
As I mentioned at the start of my second post:
There is no particular value in loving those maps when there's nothing special about them. If they're neither special nor good then the entire section holds no particular value. It's just a section of maps that randomly happen to have a scoreboard.
I think a lot of the salt being spread roots in the idea of having a category for gimmicky maps being compromised by the preselector and by holding community votes.
Sure, it's what the preselector-dudes make out of it but I think it's short-sighted to call it insufferable elitism if people like BD just wanted that section to highlight and encourage unrankable quality mapping as probably intended with the initial feature request. The idea was just compromised and even though the reaction is certainly not mature I think someone else is to blame - for compromising the idea while ignoring the arguments against it.
There was no quarrel just after the maps have been selected, shit only went down when the top player almost didn't get their way. That is when the hatred started to flourish. Similarly, look of the amount of people that are in favor of voting the Mulholland map in, which is basically a testament for the position that it is in fact not about quality, but only popularity.

Most peoples anger wasn't fueled by disagreement with the system (although the hate might as well have extended to that later), but by their petty disagreement with how (mostly) lower ranked players cast their votes. This is the elitist part, in a community-driven feature where enjoyment of the maps played should be the only parameter, your rank shouldn't matter. And yet people felt the need to bolster themselves up using arguments such as experience, which is obviously affiliated with rank. Just look at Wilchq's post, it is very clear where he is coming from. Blatant disrespect, nothing else. Note how the hate is only flowing in the original voting thread after graces of heaven tumbles down to place 5. Egoistic children that can't stand the thought of not getting their way and feel it's appropriate to take that out on other people, even though these other people have a right to enjoy the game just as much as they do.


sorry for not responding for a while, but here we are.
Endaris
^ Not Wilchq though, it was Amai.

I see your point that concerns should have been raised once the first not-community-selected set came out. While I'm not familiar with all maps in that batch I'm pretty sure that it contains maps that don't feature outstanding content as well just like the much critized Red Like Roses.
Taking Big Money, wew, there are entire sections that are stupid 1/2 symmetric fullscreenjumps that are about as good as some parts in Red Like Roses I suppose.
First step in forcing a push to maps of higher quality in the loved section would be to move your own loved maps that you don't consider good enough to the graveyard and make a public statement on why you don't think they belong there.
And let's be honest, if BD wasn't the 7* drama mapper of 2012 and if Big Money wasn't the April's fool thing back then, it would be very unlikely to see that map in the loved section either.

I wouldn't call that straight up elitism though, rather a lack of self-reflection. Because when people think of elite-mappers they would probably not think of BD but rather of lfj, RLC, fanzhen, Lan Wings and the likes. BD is an attentionwhore after all, he knows that and he should know better.
I think it is very stupid and generalising to call insufferable elitism when a lot of mappers didn't give such lame statements as quoted in your OP. Those are 3 mappers but is that representative of our community? I don't think so.

Ultimately it comes down to what CXu said~
Mismagius
uhm..
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