A word about insufferable elitism within the osu!-community

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Railey2
@endaris

The players i quoted at the start acted like only they were the target audience.

They clearly altered some of the ideas from the feature request thread, so I don't know why you are quoting a section from there. This is where you should be quoting from: https://osu.ppy.sh/news/152109048933 The fact that they added "Anti You" right off the bat, should speak for itself, right? It's about popularity, not "best quality unrankeable". To quote the announcement "it's all about the love"

I don't see how the preselector point is relevant to the discussion. This thread is a condemnation of the elitists that flipped their shit because they almost didn't get their way.

When i don't respond, it's usually because i agree with the point/didn't get to it yet/find that the poster is missing the point completely/am too lazy/don't understand the point being made. But not because i ran out of arguments. In this case I simply didn't get to it yet. Please don't jump to conclusions.
winber1

B1rd wrote:

An elitist attitude is good because it creates a standard that new players must reach rather than letting the game be dominated the lowest common denominator. You will notice what a cesspool this forum is compared to what it was half a decade ago.
Elitist groups are not what makes the standards. Elitist groups are literally what brings communities down.

People who are actually good at something are generally extremely humble about their skill, and it's almost always the "lesser" people that complain and feel as though they are the "elite" group. I feel a classic example is feminism. We all know the bullshit and trigger memes out there with regards to feminism, and tons of them feel entitled and elitist, but there are legitimate feminists out there that understand there position in society. They condemn the elitist attitudes of cancer tumblr feminazis, but believe in certain values that are core to a more properly societal wave of feminism and express them in less autistic ways. You can be non-gendered or identify as some other random non-binary gender and I would not give half a shit, but the moment you start feeling entitled to belittle people just for misgendering you or assuming your identity is when you cross the line. You are a human being, so act courteous and understanding to others who live in the same society as you do.

Sure, it's slightly different in this case, but it's still usually the "elitist" few that complain and make drama over what is right and what is wrong. When it comes down to it, things that are truly just "bad" get gutted out of the system almost immediately primarily by popular belief that it is bad, and we can see that with basically most of the maps made by "new mappers." Obviously, some maps are a little more dubious. Standards are created by the community; they are literally the norms and customs of the community. . Most people are like "this" so this is what usually should happen, etc. That is literally how the mapping ranking and criteria was created. Standards created by the community on what is "proper" technique. Once we delve into the nitty gritty, opinions arise, but no one is completely entitled to say I am 100% right. I mean I had exact same problem with the first Aspire mapping contest, where Bonzi got second. His map triggered the fuck out of me because it was literally unplayable in many regards, and I spoke out about it, but my opinion is not an objective truth. Let's be real here, the world is not decided by a few "elite people" who understand how the world works best. We get shitty rulers or leaders all the time, and when their ideals don't match the community's, he/she just gets gutted The world is just a shifting statistical norm.

In the end quality is still up to the community to decide, whether you like it or not. It's not like red like roses just bypasses the whole ranking and modding process anyway.

People like Graces of Heaven and people like Red like Roses. It may very well be the case that even the community as a whole believes Graces of Heaven is "better" mapped with more technical skill and such, but in the end, the question boils down to did you have fun playing it? And the answer is yes for both for most of the community apparently, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Endaris
Agreeing on points is vital part of a discussion, so don't skip it.
I do recall the old OP of the feature request being much shorter indeed. Not going to search that up but I guess we can call the second part of my previous post void.
Iirc the old title clearly targetted gimmicky maps though. It had the keyword "gimmicky" in its title at least.

What you're criticising in this thread is the reaction of players on what the mysterious preselector-dude aka Ephemeral+pals made out of that idea.
As I mentioned at the start of my second post:
There is no particular value in loving those maps when there's nothing special about them. If they're neither special nor good then the entire section holds no particular value. It's just a section of maps that randomly happen to have a scoreboard.
I think a lot of the salt being spread roots in the idea of having a category for gimmicky maps being compromised by the preselector and by holding community votes.
Sure, it's what the preselector-dudes make out of it but I think it's short-sighted to call it insufferable elitism if people like BD just wanted that section to highlight and encourage unrankable quality mapping as probably intended with the initial feature request. The idea was just compromised and even though the reaction is certainly not mature I think someone else is to blame - for compromising the idea while ignoring the arguments against it.
winber1

Endaris wrote:

I think a lot of the salt being spread roots in the idea of having a category for gimmicky maps being compromised by the preselector and by holding community votes.
May very well be the case, but seeing as Loved is still in a beta/alpha testing phase, those details should be figured out decided sooner or later. Whether for gimmicky maps only or just "popular" ones, it is what it is. Certain maps won't make it, certain maps will. Nothing you can do about it. If you really cared, you can promote the map and/or express your thoughts about it, but there's not reason to condemn people for being dumb for not realizing what a "masterpiece" it is.

People just need to open their minds a little more man
chainpullz
The loved maps list sucks. There is a distinct lacking of W1 maps. :?:?:?:?:?
winber1
tru, i make only the top quality maps for only autistic morons like me
M3ATL0V3R

My Angel Wilchq wrote:

Can't you understand that players mentioned are also the target audience for these maps?

Do you really think that people who get 20% with nofail are equal in assessing maps as players who play them quite comfortably?
Good point, I agree that higher ranked players are better at assessing higher ranked maps and this should be catered for somehow.

However, the target audience of the loved section is the entire community not just the higher ranked players as railey said. The majority of players are bad and may not get high ranks or anything but im sure there are groups of shitty players that compete with their friends on these maps and they could be subjectively just as important as high ranked players for the health of the game.

The question is do you give higher ranked players more power to boost the competitive side of the game or rank maps that the community likes to boost the fun casual players have? I think there should be a balance between the two, both are important.

My Angel Wilchq wrote:

go eat a dick low ranked plebs
You know you can make a point without being condescending

Railey2 wrote:

You are such an elitist
Even if he is, its best to focus on the arguments rather than a persons character if you want this thread to be actual discussion rather than drama.
buny

CXu wrote:

Welp.




Objectively good/bad means nothing as long as the loved category is supposed to be what it is right now. If it did matter, we would just have a ranked category with more laxed rules, aka old approved.
Very underrated post, there are always going to be people that think their opinion leans more to objectiveness than subjectivity.

In a group of equals, there's always going to be at least one person that thinks they're superior. Welcome to humanity.


This thread is all in vain. At the end of the day the only people that would agree are people that are sick of such personalities already, and the elitists that existed in the communities aren't going to have a sudden change in perspective.
N0thingSpecial
The thing is that I highly doubt people who vote for the maps they say they love actually plays the map extensively, the more I look at the list the more I think "this is just a list of maps for people who wants to see cookiezi playing it", which leads to the question "do these people actually like the map for the right reason?".

Why would you love something that less than 0.5% of the community is actually going to enjoy it, it becomes more questionable when a map is regarded as low quality getting loved, such as maps like red like roses, especially when there's another red like roses which is imo higher quality, but just because it doesn't have jumps as big as the popular one it was completely disregarded. Do we really want to discourage quality by attacking people who just simply have a better understanding in mapping?

The love section is indeed community base but if the community is not aware that the maps that they want to get loved are low quality, then you're gonna end up with maps that are low quality in the loved section. I mean just look at how democracy worked out for UK when they voted to leave EU.

By no means I'm saying the maps in the loved section are shit, something indeed can be fun despite being low quality, but it bugs me to hell that mappers who actually deserve the publicity for putting in the effort to improve their mapping, never got the chance cause their maps aren't hard enough.
KtkC
(For what it's worth, a division between the good and bad players would happen in pretty much any community-driven game with skill/rank being a distinguishing factor, don't get too caught up on it)
(And I have no opinion on which map should've won, note how new I am anyways)

Given the literal definition of this LOVED category the quality of the map isn't grounds for appeal; it's purely community driven.
Also, you should expect more "objectively worse" maps to win out in the future in this category too, and pay no attention to it if you're a top player, honestly. lol

If you want to split up LOVED, that's a fine idea as well.
1. (Experienced Choice - top x000 players' votes only, or from a designated panel of users)
2. (Community - anyone can vote)

The top-tier players have good reason to be upset that their favorite didn't win, though.
It's not really an example of elitism to be upset about the results, but some of the histrionics I just read might approach that.
Jukkii
preach n0thingspecial. you said what i wanted to try and say in a really good way.
i think that red like roses shouldnt be loved, because that would be kinda pointless, it hold no value. basically what endaris said but id like to add a little to it.
the map getting loved just gets like leaderboards...
who do you think is gonna fill those leaderboards? definitely not the 100ks that voted for it.
the "elitists" will play it to show that they are superior to the 100ks, not cause they love it. and even if a 100k gets like 5000/6000 rank on the map its definitely not as important as the ones in top 50. it would cause even worse elitism.
Stefan
Guys, it's about to click

the

circles.


What the fuck, the category has been added to give maps which are unsuitable for the rank status an own leaderboard and to give the attention to the public audience they deserve. If someone dislikes the beatmap because <put any random reason> then let them be, holy crap. The category is dedicated is widely dedicated for the high tier players and for a little part of the other gimmick-related beatmaps (such as Fake It).

If you can't accept people calling said beatmap as shit, you're not better than the guys complaining about the choices. But go ahead and destroy the purpose of the category.
N0thingSpecial
Oh yea and I think that the voting system itself is flawed. Having a larger percentage doesn't always mean it's more popular, it's just the larger minority liking the map there's still several other groups of minority who indirectly oppose that 1 larger minority. So calling it communities choice was kinda misleading

But hey forum voting system is limited ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
winber1
umm, its either yes or no, so there is a majority and a minority. whether or not that majority is the "acitve" population of forum posters/"good players" is another question, but technically speaking they are still part of the "community"

it's not like you can just exclude them for being new
Yuudachi-kun
Haha look another useless railey thread intended to make argue for 10 pages
N0thingSpecial

winber1 wrote:

umm, its either yes or no, so there is a majority and a minority. whether or not that majority is the "acitve" population of forum posters/"good players" is another question, but technically speaking they are still part of the "community"

it's not like you can just exclude them for being new
OK extreme situation but my point is that lets say there's 3 maps for loved and you can only cast on vote, and he results are two maps with 33%, and one map with 34%, in the current system the map with 34% would be in the love section, but technically there's 66% of the voters oppose that one map being loved, so despite being the "majority" it's not an accurate representation of what the community wants
Eraser
Well, the voting system is temporary anyways. It will be replaced with a better system in the future.
winber1

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Haha look another useless railey thread intended to make argue for 10 pages
arguably more worthwhile than browsing classic G&R shitposts and repeated questions

man idk why i still browse this shit

fuck
Flimsy

N0thingSpecial wrote:

I mean just look at how democracy worked out for UK when they voted to leave EU.
Lol? Looks like it turned out pretty well.

It's not suddenly bad when you don't get it your way. Not even making a stance on Brexit, but this example is actually just silly.

What's with forums mostly composed of anime fans / weeaboos and making really out-of-touch with reality comparisons to voting on a game where the end result still means nothing? Hitler, ISIS, Drugs, Brexit. It's really something. Tune into next time where we compare low ranked players voting on a fun-intended category to eugenics and who is and isn't allowed to do something based on some subjective stance.
M3ATL0V3R

N0thingSpecial wrote:

OK extreme situation but my point is that lets say there's 3 maps for loved and you can only cast on vote, and he results are two maps with 33%, and one map with 34%, in the current system the map with 34% would be in the love section, but technically there's 66% of the voters oppose that one map being loved, so despite being the "majority" it's not an accurate representation of what the community wants
They don't always oppose the map being loved, they usually just prefer it over another. If the community could instead rated the maps by 1-10 rather than there being a binary vote or not vote you would see a different story.

KtkC wrote:

If you want to split up LOVED, that's a fine idea as well.
1. (Experienced Choice - top x000 players' votes only, or from a designated panel of users)
2. (Community - anyone can vote)
I like this idea

-Jukke- wrote:

who do you think is gonna fill those leaderboards?
They may not fill the top of the boards but that doesn't mean they don't use them to compete with their friends. Though I agree that the better players probably use the boards more.

Stefan wrote:

What the fuck, the category has been added to give maps which are unsuitable for the rank status an own leaderboard and to give the attention to the public audience they deserve
Good point, public attention is the other important purpose of the loved category that more competitive players probably forget. This loved category isn't ranked and is more about maps the community likes rather than competitive maps that are unable to be ranked.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

do these people actually like the map for the right reason?
Then the follow up question is how can you tell? I think this aspect of voting is ignored because there is no real way to factor this into the system without it losing its democraticness.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Haha look another useless railey thread intended to make argue for 10 pages
Oh look another khelly post adding nothing to the discussion.
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