there was never an actual reply to p/5947741 by the mapperWhat exactly do you expect from your reply? Let me just quote some lines:
also @Bubblun: this is not how vetos are supposed to be handled anymore, see https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/People/Bea ... atmap_Veto
we are still in the process of mediating old vetos and put this one on higher priority now, please wait until it has been discussed
Further discussion maybe?Discussions don't work like this. If you've read my post above, then you pretty much see where I'm coming from - your reply is nowhere close to base to discuss on.
Furthermore the given replies were oftentimes far from satisfactory and pretty much nonsensical.Can wholeheartedly disagree with that. I've read the replies twice now. Saying that this is "nonsensical" just seems like a stubborn comment to keep the veto for the sake of it.
I hope this suffices as a proper reply to the veto.
Lasse wrote:some issues I have with the top diff Let's hear them!Thank you for the mods !
03:04:082 (1) - clicking this seems so strange with what's going on the song, deleting this and making 03:03:920 (1) - a 1/2 or 3/4 slider seems nicer This current patterning is a way of emphasizing the complete stop that the music has between 03:03:839 - 03:03:920 - by a large spacing from a slow slider going to a fast kickslider. The reason it is a kickslider is because it immediately shoots the cursor movement back into the large and fast slider velocity that the part before it had and the part after it has in order to make the increase in overall spacing feel natural right from the start. Anytyhing else but a kickslider would feel lackluster in my opinion. the issue is not the kickslider itself, but how you put a click on 03:04:082 -
which makes no sense at all as I stated before. also the kickslider doesn't have such an effect as nobody willl follow it, thus no "shooting the movement
back" or anything. things that would make more sense: higher sv + 1/2 or 3/4 slider, a gap on rhythm, ... Made this a slider instead.
03:05:866 (3) - all important sounds are on the red tick, but you put a pretty pointless seeming extended slider over that? // 01:33:110 (6) - It would seem that this is outdated now as there is no extended slider
I also have no idea why things like 03:05:379 (3) - 03:06:352 (2) - etc. have to be fullscreen jumps, it's such a weak sound The fact that it is fullscreen doesn't really hold any extra value here as the whole part has relatively high spacing to follow the transpose the music has and the increase in intensity that the music brings with it because of that. So compared to rest of the spacing in this part this is normal spacing and consistent. it actually holds "extra" value by devaluing your other big jumps mapped to much more significant beats These are not nearly big enough to devalue other jumps in the map. The whole point of this part is what I explained earlier: Following the transpose with bigger overall spacing for the entire kiai section makes perfect sense. Unless you have another argument than devaluing jumps I will not even consider changing these as these are perfectly fine.
overall rhythm choice overall often seems like you just throw multiple layers together losing pretty much all emphasis, like 03:07:974 (2,2) - are emphasizing vocals, but 03:07:487 (1) - ignores vocals, despite 03:07:487 (1,1,2,1,2) - being a rather repetitive thing, so using the same rhythm for all 3 parts of this would make more sense I think This part has been changed with the IRC mod from Bubblun
01:39:110 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - this completely ignores the song with the pretty outstanding 3/4 rhythm of the drums, emphasis would be on http://lasse.s-ul.eu/RohA0gx2.jpg Changed.
02:26:785 (2) - things like this make no sense at all emphasis wise, you put a click on nothing and end it on snare+vocal which seem to be what you usally focus on 02:26:299 (1,2,1,2) - These being the opposites of eachother rhythmwise is intended to emphasize the switch from vocal follow into following drums for the duration that vocals aren't present how does that justify mapping 1/2 sliders that randomly start on nothing but end on important beats. this could probably work as some overall concept of the map, but not like you did it idk if this is an outdated point but the current way is perfectly fine not gonna touch it.
02:57:109 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - completely ignores 3/4 emphasis again, when http://lasse.s-ul.eu/QIRZ6L19.jpg stand out so much more#
this is so distinctively different from 02:55:812 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - yet you just continue the spacing increasing stream. Here it is about the gradual intensity increase of the part as a whole and not individual circles. The important beats get their emphasis from the tiny streamjumps included. Not gonna budge on this.
03:44:298 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - think a rhythm like http://lasse.s-ul.eu/ARIYEh0W.jpg would be nice as that would let you emphasize the snares with 1/4 sliders and the melody with jumps/starting to click again, the current is alright on melody with (5) but seems a bit weird with the very outstanding snares on the white ticks Here the emphasizing in the simplified version happens with the turning point being the strong kick 03:44:622 (5) - simplifying 3/4 rhythms on a 185bpm 7* map, nice. as above this doesn't represent the song at all Current way is perfectly fine.
another thing would be overall usage of spacing between sections, mainly in the "calmer" parts like the intro, making for a lack of contrast between them and the more intense parts
examples would be 00:06:028 (2,3) - 00:05:704 (5,1) - 00:11:218 (6,1) - and a lot more similar stuff in this part. it's only background noise and vocals, yet very similar to the first chorus intensity wise Hmm I like the idea of distincting these more so I'll adjust them to what might seem a little to you but noticeable for me but still I will lower the spacing on these!
00:46:974 (1) - 00:56:461 - this part is executed better in that regard I agree.
00:57:272 (2,3) - what are these even following? big spacing jumps on nothing? I agree these do land on nothingness but this is the kind of reasonable "overmapping" that exists as I went over this with Monstrata and got opinions from players such as Xilver for this aswell. While you are playing this clicking at these part feels only natural opposed to having nothing there. And the argument for these being big jumps refer to my response below. similar to earlier points, devalues the actual strong sounds in the song Current way is perfectly fine.
02:14:461 (2) - can you at least not put huge spacing on these things lol clicking is already barely makes any sense here But this isn't huge? compare to 02:15:272 (2,3) - 02:16:083 (3,1) - 02:16:893 (3,4) - This is normal spacing I use for this part. maybe reconsider your whole spacing concept then Current way is perfectly fine.
01:39:110 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - this at least makes more sense nowget out of here please
02:56:785 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - still doesnt even try to represent the 3/4 emphasis in the song through movement or rhythm
well the map is still filled with lots of questionable things, so I'll just sum up the main points again since the replies are getting too convoluted
just looking at rhythms 03:04:244 (1,2,3,4) - makes me question what you're trying to do, it feels like mindless circle spam and according to your replies this won't change and it's basically the whole map. basically makes the whole map feel extremely forced since it's filled with circle jump spam that feels completely out of place
some other diffs (like Kibbleru's) actually seem to do this much better from the quick look I had, if you want an example for rhythm choice that actually makes sense
rhythm/spacing overall just feels like a mess, looking at things like 03:07:487 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - just being random fullscreen 1-2 jumps, you can't even argue that you wanted to emphasize vocals or whatever, those are focusing on red ticks
then other rhythm things that just make everything unclear for example 01:25:326 (5) - before this you focused on vocals, then suddenly this just switches to drums and completely skips red tick vocal, followed by 01:25:326 (5,1,2,3) - being some kind of drum rhythm just to go back to vocals on 01:26:299 (1,2,3,1,2) - which is one of the issues that happens pretty much throughout the whole map
overall I still think both spacing and rhythm are fundamentally flawed, which is also the main reason to keep this veto
lots of examples in the initial veto (like 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - etc) and in this post, I can basically jump to a random point in the map and find things like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - within a few seconds, which just feels like nonsensical filler rhythm jump spam
02:56:785 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - still doesnt even try to represent the 3/4 emphasis in the song through movement or rhythm This shouldn't need to follow 3/4 emphasis. This is clearly following the 1/4 drum roll and it's completely justified by the music. Here, there is no imperative to following 3/4, rather that would distract from the mapper's objective here.Overall your analysis is not bad, but still lacking because you either mistakenly selected wrong timestamps, or are incorrectly labelling every "example" you find as unjustified/nonsensical. For example, looking at your short summary, you are absolutely correct in saying stuff like 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - are unjustified in both rhythm choice (why are they circles, there's no musical support for them) and spacing (why are they so big? there is nothing supporting them in the music so creating emphasis onto them is an even bigger red flag). Stuff like this is worth veto'ing. I brought it up as a potential concern when I originally nominated, but wanted to see how this issue would be discussed. A discussion around these pattern is what I was looking for, so thank you for that.
just looking at rhythms 03:04:244 (1,2,3,4) - makes me question what you're trying to do, it feels like mindless circle spam and according to your replies this won't change and it's basically the whole map. basically makes the whole map feel extremely forced since it's filled with circle jump spam that feels completely out of place Are you sure? This is probably not the timestamp you want, because everything here is justified in the music... Listen to what the circles are following, when you click them you can hear them syncing to something. I get your concerns though, just, not a good example here imo.
rhythm/spacing overall just feels like a mess, looking at things like 03:07:487 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - just being random fullscreen 1-2 jumps, you can't even argue that you wanted to emphasize vocals or whatever, those are focusing on red ticks If you look at the map as a whole they aren't "random full screen" jumps, they aren't even that big since vertical screen jumps are a lot smaller than horizontal screen jumps. Rhythm-wise, they follow kicks and vocals. Following vocals =/= emphasizing vocals. Mapping these as 1/2 sliders is too simple for this difficulty, using 1/2 circles is the way to go so inevitable you have to map kicks and vocals to 1/2.
then other rhythm things that just make everything unclear for example 01:25:326 (5) - before this you focused on vocals, then suddenly this just switches to drums and completely skips red tick vocal, followed by 01:25:326 (5,1,2,3) - being some kind of drum rhythm just to go back to vocals on 01:26:299 (1,2,3,1,2) - which is one of the issues that happens pretty much throughout the whole map Yes, agree with these. Brought it up with ProBox at one point, I still recommend fixing this.
overall I still think both spacing and rhythm are fundamentally flawed, which is also the main reason to keep this veto
lots of examples in the initial veto (like 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - etc) This is a good example and in this post, I can basically jump to a random point in the map and find things like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - within a few seconds Poor example here though. Everything here snaps to something in the music., which just feels like nonsensical filler rhythm jump spam
Spacing concept used leaves little to no room for contrast in spacing and movement to match contrasting elements in the song within many patterns. Contrast in spacing between patterns in certain sections is too minor and disallows differentiation of strong vs. weak beats.So I as the mapper am not allowed to interpret what I want to contrast? I'm forced to follow kick - snare - kick - snare - kick - snare - kick - snare - kick - snare - loop for the entirety of the map in every pattern I make instead of map the vocals/melody in a generally highly spaced manner like I am currently?
An abundance of overmapping mostly unsupported by the song.If they are so abundant then can you please list me more of these aswell? I really don't know which parts you mean other than the ones you have linked here and those that have been brought up earlier and got looked over or fixed. I will then go edit the sounds into the mp3 so they are undeniably supported.