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posted

Shiirn wrote:

hi, as a dude who has a Very Different Mapping Style from Mir, hopefully i can shed another perspective on the issues the map has. This is all for ReTraumend.

Please note that I think this map is trying for something nice, but it just needs help. It's not a bad map, it just has some major flaws people can see but can't really explain well. Because most people suck at modding.

Again, this seems to be an issue of "Placing patterns over the music rather than with the music." Although this map tries very hard and often succeeds, it has many flaws that a lot of people can see but not many can explain.

The map itself is fine. It's clean and structured well - but it's not structured the way the music is. This is something that is very very obvious to any experienced mapper or modder, but it's hard for players to care or notice and it's hard to explain to less experienced mappers and modders.

For example, 00:02:627 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - is a very nice set of patterns. however, the music itself actually skips over a beat on 00:04:205 - specifically to drop emphasis so that the third pattern can come back up in pitch. You actually showed this in both the hitsounding and the pattern of movement - the first pattern is a zig-zag, the second is a counterclockwise loop, the third is another zig-zag. But the extra click can really stick out and makes all three patterns "look" the same, even if they aren't. You're being too subtle, basically. Even something as simple as replacing 00:04:048 (2,3) - with a 1/2 slider that blankets 00:04:837 (5) - can bring the entire pattern into the light and really clarify what you're going for.

When you're mapping with additive hitsounds and rhythms, you need to be very careful and very obvious. That comment above was the first fucking three patterns of the map, and got a paragraph explaining why changing two circles into a slider would be a good idea. It's no wonder most people wouldn't want to go over the entire song and try to explain what they feel could be improved. Especially since eLy is very stubborn and doesn't like to change 'just because someone said so', and especially since most modders, even in the BN and QAT, could not mod like this.

This gets far harder and more complicated the further you go into the map - eLy keeps adding more to the melody and supplementing what's already there, but makes some mistakes (Either from just putting in patterns that don't quite fit what the music structure is, or ignoring the musical patterns outright) in following the structure of the song and while it's extremely hard to just select a pile of notes and say 'this is wrong/off', it's extremely easy to feel that "something here is off" and that's why you get a lot of objections from this.

This kind of thing is subtle and very hard to pin down, and never appears in most mods because it's actually quite hard to just select a pile of notes and go "fix it by doing this" - it's a conceptual problem and the language barriers don't help at all.


And yes, this kind of "problem" with mapping mostly doesn't even exist in most asian circles (the shear concept of "maps should satisfy mappers too, not just players" is utterly alien to their general mindset while mapping) - it's one of the major problems the asian and european mapping communities have with eachother's maps - but this is a global game and people should discuss their differences as best they can rather than segregate themselves into two parties.
posted
Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.
posted
I mean you just deleted the diffs everyone had issues with so there are no problems really anymore.

What can I even say at this point lol.

I was hoping to come to some agreement but this is basically avoiding the problem, which is a way to do it in its own right it just isn't the best way imo.

As unfortunate as it is you might as well just go on with the set I guess but I would really recommend vellya tone down the overmapping on their diff too. Since stuff like 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - is a bit overboard imo.
posted

Shiirn wrote:

Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.
it is not emotional, i just tired of this situation.
i would drop my difficulty rather than change all those things and become another style which i don't like.

also same with cookie.
posted
and at least add them to creator's words...
posted

eLy wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.
it is not emotional, i just tired of this situation.
i would drop my difficulty rather than change all those things and become another style which i don't like.

also same with cookie.
your style can become better with other people


are you saying other people cannot make you better? that you are already perfect? a lot of mods are trying to change you, yes, but a lot of mods are trying to make you better too

part of mapping is recognizing what will help you and what will not

if you cannot do that, if you just reject any sort of suggestions to how you map, you cannot improve as a mapper and you will always face these problems with every map you make
posted

Mir wrote:

I mean you just deleted the diffs everyone had issues with so there are no problems really anymore.

What can I even say at this point lol.

I was hoping to come to some agreement but this is basically avoiding the problem, which is a way to do it in its own right it just isn't the best way imo.

As unfortunate as it is you might as well just go on with the set I guess but I would really recommend vellya tone down the overmapping on their diff too. Since stuff like 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - is a bit overboard imo.

:arrow:i'm fine with this way
posted

Shiirn wrote:

your style can become better with other people


are you saying other people cannot make you better? that you are already perfect? a lot of mods are trying to change you, yes, but a lot of mods are trying to make you better too

part of mapping is recognizing what will help you and what will not

if you cannot do that, if you just reject any sort of suggestions to how you map, you cannot improve as a mapper and you will always face these problems with every map you make
i never said they can't help me, i just said for some specific pattern and specific mods which i think ok and want to keep but also decent amount people complaining through ranking process. don't exaggerate, in fact i fixed a lot of things so far, and what are you saying now?

all mods are only a opinion also i have mine. i have right to reject if it doesn't looks improving my map after checking.
posted
..after all it's creator's will to delete the two diffs, I can do nothing about it either. Considering 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - in vellya's Extra, I see it as a good approach to emphasize the vocal that slows down to pronounce each syllable, the overmapping creates extra funs here without actually affecting the playability cuz the spacing is well handled.


I don't know how many changes have been done to modify the original top diff all through these pages, but I guess quite some compromises have already been made. If it still cannot meet the general mapping standard of some public, you can't call the mapper who deletes the diffs in order to push the set forward emotional(at least this is not a negative act imo). When 'improvements' in your eyes are made, probably the difficulty would simply go further from what the mapper wants to create in his initial mapping concept. There's no objectively right or wrong in this case, it's just the crush of different mindsets that happens everyday in our lifes.


and uh, sometimes language barrier can really be a thing. I often find it difficult to communicate my arguments fully and logically with my broken English like the paragraph above lol.
posted
(=0~0=)
posted

Garden wrote:

When 'improvements' in your eyes are made, probably the difficulty would simply go further from what the mapper wants to create in his initial mapping concept.
If the mapping concept is to badly represent the music, it has no place in ranked. Leave it as an unranked training diff. I don't think this concept is very hard.

This game is about music. You work with the music. You don't ignore it and do random "feeling" mapping that is closer to a child painting with their own poop than actual art.

There can be purpose and reason to feeling. Feelings are not random. They have logic. Thus, maps should have logic.
posted
well like he kinda removed the diff so.. he is leaving it unranked? s:
posted

Shiirn wrote:

You don't ignore it and do random "feeling"

Shiirn wrote:

Feelings are not random. They have logic. Thus, maps should have logic.
unless you clarify a bit more sone people won't understand what you truly mean
posted

Shiirn wrote:

Garden wrote:

When 'improvements' in your eyes are made, probably the difficulty would simply go further from what the mapper wants to create in his initial mapping concept.
If the mapping concept is to badly represent the music, it has no place in ranked. Leave it as an unranked training diff. I don't think this concept is very hard.

This game is about music. You work with the music. You don't ignore it and do random "feeling" mapping that is closer to a child painting with their own poop than actual art.

There can be purpose and reason to feeling. Feelings are not random. They have logic. Thus, maps should have logic.
yes, whatever you think that is your opinion. and we all have own opinions on stuff.
I'd respect your opinion but since its all about opinion there is no true answer.
you seems like think i'm wrong, but thats also means you can be wrong as well, since its just opinion.
random feeling? child painting?
your words are like you are criticizing any kind of creative stuff you don't like for shitty reason.
for example, i don't really like deathmetal songs. then i get right to criticize deathmetal songs?
well, i don't think so. but your words basically says i can criticize them because i can't understand their goodness
sounds not good for me so they are shit and must be changed.

you should really know that everyone feels different way. think why there are words like 'Preference'

And I don't want to using here to discuss this kind of stuff, if you have anything to say, PM me
posted
I really suggest someone here being more strict to themselves and being more tolerant to others, it's wonderful to your life.
Actually deleting diffs for rank (or being tired) has nothing wrong with your strange self-esteem.
The truth is that responsibility always belongs to both sides of you, don't try to find ways to push all responsibility to the mapper.
That's why someone sucks.
posted
Garden notified me of the reply.

[Cookiezi's Insane]
- 00:06:258 - Inaudible. I don't know what happened here but there is legitimately nothing on this.
- 00:33:732 - Still a bit questionable about skipping this.. how about: https://puu.sh/xBaDA/8bda42e9b6.png ?
- 00:36:258 (5,6) - Ctrl+G this rhythm to follow the vocals better?
- 00:46:679 - This is quite a strong beat. Perhaps you can make this clickable with ctrl+g on 00:46:521 (4,1) - ?
- 00:58:205 (1) - This could use more emphasis considering the kiai starts here. Probably more spacing would good.
- 00:58:363 (2,3) - More emphasis on 3 and less on 2 seems more appropriate. Something like https://puu.sh/xBaKq/61babd0115.png ?
- 01:03:890 (3) - Ctrl+g might play nicer to continue the circular flow. That would put more emphasis on 01:04:521 (1) - as well due to the flow change.

Much improvement it seems like. I'm okay with this going through now though this is just some extra stuff.

[Re:TraumenD]
- 01:06:258 - 01:06:890 - Inaudible. Probably due to the drum hitsound being too soft here? If I change it to soft it sounds fine so I'm not too sure what's wrong here but I can't hear it. Wait a sec.. is this supposed to have 35% volume?

There's some weird volume stuff going on lol.

The diffs in question are fine to me now, so take these suggestions as suggestions only. I'm lifting the veto, so feel free to get a rebubble from Garden. I wish you luck in further processing and thank you for your cooperation!
posted

Mir wrote:

Garden notified me of the reply.

[Cookiezi's Insane]
- 00:06:258 - Inaudible. I don't know what happened here but there is legitimately nothing on this.
- 00:33:732 - Still a bit questionable about skipping this.. how about: https://puu.sh/xBaDA/8bda42e9b6.png ?
- 00:36:258 (5,6) - Ctrl+G this rhythm to follow the vocals better?
- 00:46:679 - This is quite a strong beat. Perhaps you can make this clickable with ctrl+g on 00:46:521 (4,1) - ?
- 00:58:205 (1) - This could use more emphasis considering the kiai starts here. Probably more spacing would good.
- 00:58:363 (2,3) - More emphasis on 3 and less on 2 seems more appropriate. Something like https://puu.sh/xBaKq/61babd0115.png ?
- 01:03:890 (3) - Ctrl+g might play nicer to continue the circular flow. That would put more emphasis on 01:04:521 (1) - as well due to the flow change.

Much improvement it seems like. I'm okay with this going through now though this is just some extra stuff.

:arrow:all fixed

[Re:TraumenD]
- 01:06:258 - 01:06:890 - Inaudible. Probably due to the drum hitsound being too soft here? If I change it to soft it sounds fine so I'm not too sure what's wrong here but I can't hear it. Wait a sec.. is this supposed to have 35% volume?

:arrow: volume 35%20% fixed 

There's some weird volume stuff going on lol.

The diffs in question are fine to me now, so take these suggestions as suggestions only. I'm lifting the veto, so feel free to get a rebubble from Garden. I wish you luck in further processing and thank you for your cooperation!
ty mir
posted

eLy wrote:

:arrow: volume 35%20% fixed 
My point was more it should be audible so raise the volume instead of lowering it cuz:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense.
So increase 01:06:258 - to 70% like the others?

Also for Cookiezi's diff: 00:06:258 - was fine as a slider it was more for the hitsound volume like the topdiff.
posted

Mir wrote:

eLy wrote:

:arrow: volume 35%20% fixed 
My point was more it should be audible so raise the volume instead of lowering it cuz:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense.
So increase 01:06:258 - to 70% like the others?

Also for Cookiezi's diff: 00:06:258 - was fine as a slider it was more for the hitsound volume like the topdiff.

:arrow: 70% changed ~
posted
I am not sure does vellya/alyce/5hiki remapped his diff into alyce's extra

But right now the package is kinda bugged as it appears the difficulty is not the latest version

i clicked on it and deletes the whole diff

maybe updating it again will help
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