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posted

G3T wrote:

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant.
Control as a metric does not exist without the context of anatomy and physiology. More precisely the control that a pointing device grants an individual is a function of both the physical properties of the device and the anatomical and physiological properties of the individual.

While I believe your argument that the physical properties of a tablet leads to greater control is true for the majority of human beings, I also think that the difference between mouse and tablet is minor enough that a smaller portion of people would have greater control with a mouse due to some anatomical or physiological oddity.

Thus it would be more reasonable to say that tablet is more likely to give a greater level of control.
That's a good point and is a good reason why people should pick based on preference. (though I still disagree that mouse has generally less control)

A possible reason for being anatomically suited to mouse is big hands, though I think mine are average.
posted

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

A possible reason for being anatomically suited to mouse is big hands, though I think mine are average.
That might be a factor. I have quite large hands and I swapped from tablet to mouse because I had trouble gripping the pen. However I also have a limited range of movement in my aim hand's thumb due to an injury I sustained a few years ago and that was likely a contributing factor.

The largest difference I've noticed about mouse vs tablet other than having to deal with mouse drift is the difference in input lag. The lower input lag on mouse means that while I have to concentrate more on the position of my cursor to account for drift I can concentrate far less on synchronising my taps with my aim as it comes more naturally.

I've tried switching back to tablet a few times and that difference in input lag is a greater annoyance to me than having to deal with mouse drift.
posted

G3T wrote:

I've tried switching back to tablet a few times and that difference in input lag is a greater annoyance to me than having to deal with mouse drift.
How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.
posted

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.
It's hard to find good specs. The signal timing diagrams in Wacom's original patent from the mid 90's allows for a minimum input lag of 15 ms, excluding USB transfer times. The three factors in tablet input lag are the coil sampling frequency, the number of coils, and the DSP time.

As technology has become significantly better over the last two decades you'd expect a significant improvement in the above factors. I think, though I have no actual confirmation, that most of these improvements have been put into a larger resolution, more pressure sensitivity, and pen positioning data.

Using this analysis and my own experience of the difference between a good mouse and tablet I'd estimate that most Wacom tablets probably do about 5-10 ms of sampling/DSP and then there's about 6 ms of USB transfer time as they poll at 200 Hz. And then everything but the w5 driver for the 480 take multiple samples to smooth your input, further adding (5 ms * number of samples) to the input lag.

A good mouse at polling at 1000 Hz is going to have about 2 ms input lag to the PC to the eyes you have to take into account frametime, monitor DSP, monitor response time, and monitor refresh rate which is almost entirely usb transfer time as good optical sensors sample at about 6 kHz.
posted
I've played with tablet for a year now after switching from mouse and I haven't improved in any way but reading (which isn't due to the tablet, obviously). There are some things I've been able to do with one and not the other (both ways).

It's just a preference for the most part and there are a few maps that are more tailored for one or the other
posted
I used to play with a tablet for about 3 years, then I switched to a mouse and I'll probably stay on this one. It gives me much more control over the position of my cursor, my aim doesn't "shake", which is a common trouble for many tablet users and I feel much more confident on this one. Yes, a tablet has some crucial advantages, but mouse has its own as well.
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shit
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LoliPantsu wrote:

i feel u
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Only read the OP.

I agree with your points, but I think you're misrepping the "it's preference" argument a bit. Obviously they can't be completely equal, but they can be close enough that your choice makes no significant impact on your overall performance in the long run. And that's a much harder argument to refute, it depends on what you consider "significant".
posted
Another post where you write obvious stuff and then back it up with evidence so bad that it almost negates your point?

Nice.
posted
A better keyboard (mechanic in most cases) makes a more objectively visible difference to overall performance, having less pressure on your left side of the body allows to have an easier time aiming with any device, I played mouse and tablet for 2 and 3 years respectively and found the biggest difference to be the keyboard although I still like the tablet more, you can negate mouse drift by controlling the mouse in such a way with your chest muscles and navel muscles to make the mouse hover just on the comfortable limit of losing contact with the surface.On another note spining anti clockwise is better aiming wise for my brain than clockwise dunno why, also most people seem to forget that the chest/shoulder muscles also influence the stability/fluidity/control of aim,I think they should try to feel these a bit more.
posted
I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
posted

Trapalicious wrote:

I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
I don't know the supposed best player in the world cookiezi says "its just preference" in other words he says they are equal.
posted
everything in the world is inherently different, because they are literally different things. object A is not object B even if they are both cellphones, or whatever. there are things that tablet inherently has a slight advantage over mouse and likewise mouse over tablet given a certain person's skillset, albeit extremely hard to pinpoint exactly. that being said, everyone is also different and inherently has a different skillset, which can match tablet or mouse better. in a sense, it's just "preference" because it depends on which peripheral a person is more inclined to use given their skillsets. however, to say that something is better generally implies that it is better for the majority of people. something would not be "better" if it were disadvantageous to most people. therefore, because it is basically fact that most people see greater improvement with tablet, the general consensus would be that tablet is "better" than mouse, since the majority of people see an advantageous benefit from tablet. To say "you should probably switch to tablet to improve faster" is not misleading, but rather a general guideline; however, it should be taken with a grain of salt because you may be part of the minority. the world is just made up of statistics.

now begone
posted

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Trapalicious wrote:

I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
I don't know the supposed best player in the world cookiezi says "its just preference" in other words he says they are equal.
Well that would make sense to deflect the fact a player using more difficult way to play has overtaken your rank. There's like what, 9 mouse players in the top 100? One player being immensely good at both the game and mouse control doesn't suddenly negate the fact the other 91 players use a tablet and turn it into preference. He's an exception to the rule.

I use a tablet for drawing so I'm partially already just used to using a tablet in general, but Osu is most definitely easier with speed and aim with longer jumps, and jumping in general. Tablets exist for a reason, and that reason is because they offer more precision while working with a static interface like drawing, or like Osu. Using a tablet lets you dance around because they add practically no weight to your hand and there's 0 drag since nothing is touching.

Preference only goes so far, there are objectively better ways to play things. You're not gonna find many top CSGO players which work with high sensitivity/DPI, because it's just an less accurate way to play. Tablet VS Mouse isn't gonna mean anything at my rank (realistically I only started playing Standard a little over a month ago), but I'd think it's fair to say a rank 1,000 mouse player is better than a rank 1,000 tablet player.

For the record, the reason I use my mouse instead of my tablet for Osu is just because I want to, and it's easier to not dick around with space issues each time.
posted

Trapalicious wrote:

Well that would make sense to deflect the fact a player using more difficult way to play has overtaken your rank.
Lol, he never overtook me, hes been a god since the dawn of time. Also I'm not sure why you would make this about me, lets focus the points of the argument rather than attacking each others character.

Trapalicious wrote:

91 players use a tablet
More people use tablet because it used to be perceived as the superior device. However just because the majority perceive the device as better doesn't mean it actually is. I mean the second best player right now is a mouse player even though only 9% of players in the top 100 use mouse.

Trapalicious wrote:

they offer more precision while working with a static interface
Just because tablet is limited to a static interface doesn't mean it is the best choice for that interface. Could you explain in more depth why they are more precise?

Trapalicious wrote:

Using a tablet lets you dance around because they add practically no weight to your hand and there's 0 drag since nothing is touching
Low weight and drag is both good and bad when it comes to ability to aim. For this very reason some tablet players drag the pen on the tablet to add stability. The same goes for weight, it increases the force needed to start moving but adds stability as you are moving. There are many arguments for both peripherals and after considering as many as I could I came to the conclusion they are very close to equal

Trapalicious wrote:

Preference only goes so far
This is true and the example you give is true however there is no specific dpi number that is optimal there is a range and the number you choose is preference. Also if you look at what types of mice these players use they could be big or small. The DPI and shape of a mouse is preference just as what peripheral you use in osu is preference.
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