This is a bit of a vitriolic discussion, but an interesting topic. I find it strange that people say 'talent is more important IN MY OPINION'. I feel that if you don't actually know which one is actually more important, then it's not really that useful to say. If you don't qualify your opinion with evidence (not anecdotes from famous people) then you are unlikely to convince anyone that you are correct.

I found this related article, anyway http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121114-gladwells-10000-hour-rule-myth . TLDR; There is no clear agreement among experts about whether talent is just hard work or not.

I drew a couple of things from this article anyway:

1- The majority of those at the top of any discipline have put in a huge amount of time practicing, and often they had already put in a huge amount of time before the people against whom they are competing. So if these top players are still active (cookiezi, WWW, [Toy], Beafowl etc.) then they are still improving, so it makes catching up to them in terms of hours harder.

2- You don't know if you could be one of the best until you actually put in the hours required to reach the top (whether it is ~1000 hours for memory training, ~25,000 hours for concert level violin playing, ~XXX hours for osu!....). Yes some people can get there quicker (Vaxei, Rafis), but for you personally you just don't know what you might achieve until you have actually done all that practice.

Finally, I personally think that OP's attempt to find a measure for talent vs. effort is interesting, not pure cancer, but I personally think the biggest flaw is that it somehow assumes that people improve at a steady pace. In my experience with eg. language learning this is just not usually the case. Some people find the early stages of learning a skill particularly hard, others might struggle to maintain focus when practicing through a plateau where improvement comes slowly, and in any case you can't predict exactly when something might start to feel natural and easy to you. Yes you might practice for a long time and still suck, but maybe next week something will just click for you, and you'll make a huge leap in improvement.

Just my 2 cents

i like your 2 cents

My entire response to this post can basically be summed up by "so what?"

Obviously, I'd be crazy to think that I can somehow catch up to the likes of Cookiezi and Rafis because they're so far ahead of me and still working hard at improving every day. Obviously, I'm not talented, because there are people who played this game 1/3 as much as me and are higher rank.

But, seriously, who are you to tell me that I couldn't climb to the top if I pushed myself really hard? For the past year and a half, I've only gotten to play one or two days a week, and I'm still climbing (albeit slowly). I still have room to play 5x as much, and when my crazy 6 day workweek + graduate classes schedule ends, maybe that's what I'll do. Maybe I'll find something else I'd rather do, but I'm certainly not going to give up on it just because you told me to.

I dunno, you can be a quitter all you like, but don't go pushing that onto me.

rip me im not talented at anything at all might as well just quit

many of the response tells me that "I play for rank."

Floob wrote:

rip me im not talented at anything at all might as well just quit

Yeah you are right, everybody that is not talented should quit
Heck yeah ill quit today bcuz playing this game without talent makes no sense

Rip all the untalented players

Hiro-Senpai wrote:

Floob wrote:

rip me im not talented at anything at all might as well just quit

Yeah you are right, everybody that is not talented should quit
Heck yeah ill quit today bcuz playing this game without talent makes no sense

Rip all the untalented players

Rip, osu will be left with approx 100 players and peppy will shut down so amazing game. All thanks to OP being a mindless brick.

Did this thread offend you because you find yourself in the untalented-bracket?
That's fine, Taiga. You can play the game for other reasons than making it to the top. Just play for your own personal improvement, play for the music or play for fun. Wanting to quit is a pretty weird reaction to my post anyway. It's not like I was sharing new insights, it's just common sense for the most part.

"Oh no... According to what this post says, I'm untalented T_T" (Just a joke alright?)

*Flawed points incoming*

Anyway, I find what OP has said to be interesting or even controversial to what people have in mind when it comes to ranking, score, PP etc.

Yes, putting in hard work does make you improve and do better. But if your method of improving is not benefiting you then there isn't really a point to lash and hate on what defines "Talent" in this context. I do agree on hard working having an important role in ones rise to the top - be it 200k- 100k or 100th-50th placing in ranks.

Although what the replies to the post are...mixed, I do not believe that OP needs to get such flak. Valid arguments and feedback? No problem. But hating with hypocrisy and criticizing in such an absurd way is totally undeserving.

I'll use myself as a sad example, 13k plays and about 2 million hits. Bring in the haters to tell me I am untalented and I should quit this game. While I realize I can never make it to the top(the fact came long ago), it doesn't mean that I can't improve(even slightly) from my sorry state. Some improve faster, some take more time. That's all I can think of at the moment.


It's cool to see the post get so much attention, but saying things like "lol I should quit this game, screw OP" or even "If I'm untalented, so are you lol" kind of comments. I don't know it could offend people to such an extent :/



To OP, interesting post

Railey, I used to respect you but this is seriously fucking stupid

How immature do you have to be to type up this massive post just because you're not capable of improving

You're attempting to rationalize your own failures as some sort of act of god or pre-destined occurrence just because you can't stand the fact that you're just not good enough - this is literally the sort of thing you see children do.

Not only that but you're making an active effort to discourage other people from playing the game too. "If I can't have it, nobody can!" That's literally toddler logic.

This is seriously fucking stupid and probably tops my list of the stupidest threads on this forum (and I've seen a lot of fucking stupid threads)

Stop whining. If you don't want to play, quit. If you do want to play, shut the fuck up and have fun. Not improving? It's your own fucking fault, and focusing on the negatives like this shit is probably WHY you're not improving. Attitude is important.

Did this thread offend you because you find yourself in the untalented-bracket?
That's fine, Taiga. You can play the game for other reasons than making it to the top. Just play for your own personal improvement, play for the music or play for fun. Wanting to quit is a pretty weird reaction to my post anyway. It's not like I was sharing new insights, it's just common sense for the most part.

LMAO, pls.

Yes - i am in so you call it "untallented bracket" and personaly, i don't give a single fuck, i don't take into my mind such bullshit like "you are not talented" since it's pure demotivational emotion to mess you up at any point of activity - basic psychology knock-knock to your empty brain.

First emotion if something goes wrong for several hours should be - how can i improve this, analyze your own mistakes, spend even hours on analyzing your routine, change something, expect better results, if not - change something else, be fuckin positive that at some point you will overcome your barriers and do your job better - one more time - basic psychology knock-knock to your empty shitty head.

I play this game for several reasons, mainly to enjoy certain group of maps created by HW, fanzhen, RLC and more amazing mappers.
When i played for ranking, i was spending minimum 6 hours per day hard working my ass, not paying attention to pain in wrist, overcomming my barriers and pushing forward - i made "impossible" - possible by working on it.

Your post is pure "hey dude, you are untalented, just quit because there is no place in top100 for you".

If you are a failure in computer game, that's fine but don't fuckin dare to demoralize other players. It's mothefuckin stupid.
By this post you prove how big failure you are not only in computer game but also in term of mental strenght.

well, I don't want to sugarcoat the truth, so I'm going to tell you that you should give up on your dream of making the top. I think upstanding people would appreciate honesty as it prevents them from sinking their time into something without chances of success.

It's nice that you like playing amazing maps, in fact, I do too. RLC is great.

and as I said before, talent is relative. You are probably more talented than the majority of people who got stuck in the 1kpp range.

well, I don't want to sugarcoat the truth, so I'm going to tell you that you should give up on your dream of making the top. I think upstanding people would appreciate honesty as it prevents them from sinking their time into something without chances of success.

You are a fuckin idiot.
Fuckin... demotivational failure who cannot handle anything in both - real life and computer game, your all posts here are just silly shitty excuse of your lazy mofo ass who don't want to work, don't want to improve.

and as I said before, talent is relative. You are probably more talented than the majority of people who got stuck in the 1kpp range.

It may be but as many... MANY respected people all over the world pointed out - you can work out and build up your talent but it require excessive amount of self-discipline, determination and sacrifice. You don't know this...

Just go and cry more, i am done with you.

I am curious if actually demotivating players from playing this game (in tl;dr telling people to NOT play it if you don't have so called talent) is actually against any rule so i could get rid of you and this topic. And i will try to do this since GnR is to

HELP PEOPLE IMPROVE - NOT DEMOTIVATE THEM AND TELL "FUCK OFF YOU ARE NOT TALENTED"

Bloody hell Railey, what on earth have you done now?

Don't worry about me, I'm not crying.

The reason why the "hard work got me where I am"-line of thought is so appealing, is because it is an amazing source of self-credit.

You can't exactly feel good for being born talented, so attributing 100% of your success to your work ethic is what people do to get as much of a boost out of it as possible.
In addition to that we hate admitting to ourselves that there are forces outside of our control, as it makes us feel powerless. You can see that reflected when people look back at their careers. They will often claim that their success is an immediate result of their decisions, when in fact there were often other people making decisions for them, or their decisions led to things that they didn't anticipate at all.

Similarly, attributing everything to hard work just isn't accurate. I don't care what these respectable people say about themselves, talent plays a major role in success for most fields (maybe not acting, but say professional sports for example).

Saying that it doesn't is an insult to everyone who works his ass off and still doesn't get to the top for a clear lack of talent.


What do you think? How would someone who is 165cm tall and worked his ass off every day feel when michael jordan came to him and told him that he didn't make it to the NBA because he didn't try hard enough?

What do you think? How would someone who is 165cm tall and worked his ass off every day feel when michael jordan came to him and told him that he didn't make it to the NBA because he didn't try hard enough?

As someone who is 160cm tall, hearing from MJ words "you didn't made it to NBA because you didn't worked enough" even knowing i was training 12 hours per day, i could increase this to 16 hours per day or more, it could be fuckin motivation to show that I CAN DO THIS BECAUSE I LOVE THIS.

I strugled in osu at rank ~160-150k with 800pp till r0ck one time told me stright - you don't improve because you don't play more and work. Took me few months to rocketjump my rank but he motivated me to do this, to show that i can actually improve. I done it for myself, ONLY for myself and i know my hard work paid off properly.

Here's my opinion on the matter:
Osu! (standard) is a game where you click circles on a computer screen. You have to press a button at the right time, and move the cursor to the right place.
I believe anyone can do that, saying that someone would never become good at the game because they lack talent is wrong. They can become good, and they can even be a top player if they want, the only thing I feel talent affects is how fast some people are improving, but even that barely matters.

Why?

You have to keep in mind a player's experience with rhythm games (or games in general) before they started playing Osu!, it'll affect how fast they'd improve. Show your grandma (or anyone who didn't grow up playing video games) Osu! and let them play a <1* song and see if she can even pass it, she obviously won't, does that mean your grandma lacks talent? No. You just grew up playing games all your life, yet she didn't. It's called experience.

Honestly, this whole "talent" thing feels like a bad excuse for you to feel better about yourself being stuck in the 5k range. It's like saying some people can never be a pro at a game like Tetris because they lack the talent for it. Not trying to sound rude or anything.

[Taiga] wrote:

What do you think? How would someone who is 165cm tall and worked his ass off every day feel when michael jordan came to him and told him that he didn't make it to the NBA because he didn't try hard enough?

As someone who is 160cm tall, hearing from MJ words "you didn't made it to NBA because you didn't worked enough" even knowing i was training 12 hours per day, i could increase this to 16 hours per day or more, it could be fuckin motivation to show that I CAN DO THIS BECAUSE I LOVE THIS.

I strugled in osu at rank ~160-150k with 800pp till r0ck one time told me stright - you don't improve because you don't play more and work. Took me few months to rocketjump my rank but he motivated me to do this, to show that i can actually improve. I done it for myself, ONLY for myself and i know my hard work paid off properly.

I hate to break it to you but you will never play in the NBA with 160cm, no matter how hard you work.

It doesn't work that way. Michael Jordan lied to you. Sure you can get better, but you can't get NBA-good.

AsyouSaidsir wrote:

Here's my opinion on the matter:
Osu! (standard) is a game where you click circles on a computer screen. You have to press a button at the right time, and move the cursor to the right place.
I believe anyone can do that, saying that someone would never become good at the game because they lack talent is wrong. They can become good, and they can even be a top player if they want, the only thing I feel talent affects is how fast some people are improving, but even that barely matters.

Why?

You have to keep in mind a player's experience with rhythm games (or games in general) before they started playing Osu!, it'll affect how fast they'd improve. Show your grandma (or anyone who didn't grow up playing video games) Osu! and let them play a <1* song and see if she can even pass it, she obviously won't, does that mean your grandma lacks talent? No. You just grew up playing games all your life, yet she didn't. It's called experience.

Honestly, this whole "talent" feels like a bad excuse for you to feel better about yourself being stuck in the 5k range. It's like saying some people can never be a pro at a game like Tetris because they lack the talent for it. Not trying to sound rude or anything.

please stop saying that I made this thread to console myself. I am not frustrated, I am quite happy with where I am right now.

I made this thread because it was common sense to me, but I didn't see it covered on the forums yet.

To address your other points, my grandma is quite untalented because her reaction time is reduced by a good 200ms. I wouldn't want to tell her that she can make it to the top with hard work (because she can't, and I'd be lying to her). This is the point of the thread. Don't lie to others, don't lie to yourself. There are many people who don't have the stuff to make it, be it for a lower reaction time, worse spacial memory, or whatever it is that cause people to not improve at osu fast enough to keep up with the insane rate at which the top100 run away from everyone else. And yes I think that this applies most games (even tetris), although that might be a bad example. Tetris doesn't seem to be in the end times like osu is.

Thanks for your honest and neutral reply.

Railey2 wrote:

please stop saying that I made this thread to console myself. I am not frustrated, I am quite happy with where I am right now.

I made this thread because it was common sense to me, but I didn't see it covered on the forums yet.

Okay, I apologize for saying that. I still stand by what I said earlier, though.


EDIT:

Railey2 wrote:

To address your other points, my grandma is quite untalented because her reaction time is reduced by a good 200ms. I wouldn't want to tell her that she can make it to the top with hard work (because she can't, and I'd be lying to her). This is the point of the thread. Don't lie to others, don't lie to yourself. There are many people who don't have the stuff to make it, be it for a lower reaction time, worse spacial memory, or whatever it is that cause people to not improve at osu fast enough to keep up with the insane rate at which the top100 run away from everyone else. And yes I think that this applies most games (even tetris), although that might be a bad example. Tetris doesn't seem to be in the end times like osu is.

Thanks for your honest and neutral reply.

That's an effect of growing up and being old, I don't think players like Cookiezi would be able to play Osu! at age 70 either, I said Grandma because that's the most relatable person I could think of. People with health problems won't be able to play Osu! very well (E.g. blind people), that also applies to other games P:

What about people who are still young and healthy yet they haven't played video games their whole life? It still wouldn't mean they lack talent, they just didn't grow up playing games. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I hate to break it to you but you will never play in the NBA with 160cm, no matter how hard you work.

It doesn't work that way. Michael Jordan lied to you. Sure you can get better, but you can't get NBA-good.

One more time i will prove how wrong you are:

Muggsy Bogues - Toronto Raptor player, 158cm tall.

kthxbai, make some research before you post another bullshit

MJ didn't lied to me. If there is one person who made it - there is open door to me another one, and another one, and many many more can make it.

From the looks of it, it seems like this post is slowly devolving into a heated battlezone of arguments and points regarding both hard work and talent.

It does somewhat feel a tad bit one sided to just claim that talent is major. If you work hard on every occasion you can, you'll get better at what you're doing at some point.

[Taiga] wrote:

I strugled in osu at rank ~160-150k with 800pp till r0ck one time told me stright - you don't improve because you don't play more and work. Took me few months to rocketjump my rank but he motivated me to do this, to show that i can actually improve. I done it for myself, ONLY for myself and i know my hard work paid off properly.

Feel you. Motivation helps and reality can hurt sometimes, but it isn't too fair to force what you think is the reality onto someone. My current opinion on this whole post is mixed, I don't know what is an ideal opinion to give, but I'll share what comes to mind.

Just realized I'm joining the debate too in a way, I'm such a hypocrite lol. Fuck.

[Taiga] wrote:

I hate to break it to you but you will never play in the NBA with 160cm, no matter how hard you work.

It doesn't work that way. Michael Jordan lied to you. Sure you can get better, but you can't get NBA-good.

One more time i will prove how wrong you are:

Muggsy Bogues - Toronto Raptor player, 158cm tall.

kthxbai, make some research before you post another bullshit

MJ didn't lied to me. If there is one person who made it - there is open door to me another one, and another one, and many many more can make it.

I did a little search before on players who were around the 160cm height range and Muggsy Bogues showed up. Does this counters OP's recent points?

From the looks of it, it seems like this post is slowly devolving into a heated battlezone of arguments and points regarding both hard work and talent.

Becuase there is a difference between making a discussion about "Does talent matter to get into top100?" etc. and making a salt ocean of tears thread by random failure who stands "You will never make to the top without talent".

First is a discussion.
Second is a crying of a retarded lazy kid who don't know what means hard work and prefer to demotivate others from it.

I did a little search before on players who were around the 160cm height range and Muggsy Bogues showed up. Does this counters OP's recent points?

By logic if there is an exception in a "rule", it make it not true anymore.
If someone made it with 158cm, that means a 160cm guy can also make it.
Yes, he said

I hate to break it to you but you will never play in the NBA with 160cm

Which is a lie.

Boomdopew wrote:

I did a little search before on players who were around the 160cm height range and Muggsy Bogues showed up. Does this counters OP's recent points?

that depends. Do you think he could have made it in 2016?

I think hard work alone was enough to make the top in 2013 in osu. Now, it seems a bit unrealistic. Then again, I don't know basketball enough to say how important height really is.

I could change the argument slightly and ask how someone who is naturally frail would feel if michael jordan told him that.


Also, I never claimed that a lack of talent will prevent you from improving. Most people can get really good at this game. It will just prevent you from reaching the top.

[Taiga] wrote:

From the looks of it, it seems like this post is slowly devolving into a heated battlezone of arguments and points regarding both hard work and talent.

Becuase there is a difference between making a discussion about "Does talent matter to get into top100?" etc. and making a salt ocean of tears thread by random failure who stands "You will never make to the top without talent".

First is a discussion.
Second is a crying of a retarded lazy kid who don't know what means hard work and prefer to demotivate others from it.

The only salty person here is you, Taiga. You told me to kill myself twice, said that you'd get me banned, and insult me at every opportunity you get. Exactly how lacking in awareness are you?

AsyouSaidsir wrote:

Railey2 wrote:

please stop saying that I made this thread to console myself. I am not frustrated, I am quite happy with where I am right now.

I made this thread because it was common sense to me, but I didn't see it covered on the forums yet.

Okay, I apologize for saying that. I still stand by what I said earlier, though.

no hard feelings. Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it!

[Taiga] wrote:

I hate to break it to you but you will never play in the NBA with 160cm

Which is a lie.

Taiga you are living in a fantasy world where everyone can achieve anything. Wake up, you're too old for this. You can't play in the NBA.

Where is Gambler with his popcorn when we need him?

Taiga you are living in a fantasy world where everyone can achieve anything. Wake up, you're too old for this. You can't play in the NBA.

And you need to grow up and learn that by hard work you achieve a lot, not just by "talent".
Talent is irrevelant if it comes to reaching edge of certain activity, talented person will just do this faster. Hardworker will also do this if he sacrifice himself to this.

ALREADY FUCKIN LEARN THIS KID and stoip throwing bunch of stinky shit into playerbase because you are butthurt over your own failure.

Railey2 wrote:

The only salty person here is you, Taiga. You told me to kill myself twice, said that you'd get me banned, and insult me at every opportunity you get. Exactly how lacking in awareness are you?

He's just like this.

Talent only carries you so far tho. Most of it is practise, mindset and lifestyle.

[Taiga] wrote:

Taiga you are living in a fantasy world where everyone can achieve anything. Wake up, you're too old for this. You can't play in the NBA.

And you need to grow up and learn that by hard work you achieve a lot, not just by "talent".
Talent is irrevelant if it comes to reaching edge of certain activity, talented person will just do this faster. Hardworker will also do this if he sacrifice himself to this.

ALREADY FUCKIN LEARN THIS KID and stoip throwing bunch of stinky shit into playerbase because you are butthurt over your own failure.

I don't see myself as a failure. I think I am doing really well at this game, and I'm happy with where I am. I am also happy pushing for more and improving myself. I don't think that I failed by any means.

I just know that I won't make it to the top, which is fine by me.


Anyway, to come back to the NBA player example. The fact that only 1 guy who was below 170cm made it in all these years (everyone else that size played pre1990, and most of them were taller), should be a pretty clear sign. Now I don't know if that guy in particular had another talent to compensate for his short height, but one thing I do know: If you are short, your chances of making it are extraordinarily low. So low in fact, that every reasonable person would round down to 0 and call it impossible.

But that is beside the point. When you say that you can make it regardless of what you were born with when you work hard enough, what you really say is that everyone who didn't make it is to blame for not working hard enough. This is insulting to everyone who gave it all they had and still never came close to meeting the requirements, and I assure you.. there are many people like that.

Using one datapoint against my entire argument is a bit weak, I think. Michael Jordan still lied to you. If talent wasn't important, we'd see more people shorter than 170, the fact that there only was one means that the statistical evidence supports my view, not yours. A more likely hypothesis is, that Early Boykin had something else going for him that allowed him to play in the NBA despite his size.


Oh well. I know you think that I am bitter and frustrated, but I think it's quite the opposite. YOU calling ME butthurt is about as ironic as it gets.

KukiMonster wrote:

Talent only carries you so far tho. Most of it is practise, mindset and lifestyle.

I agree. Talent without work won't get anyone to the top. But similarly, work, mindset and lifestyle also pnly carry you so far. Making that very clear, is one point of this thread.

honestly, the moment i read op's post, i was like this is fucking obvious and useless and it would just get shut down in like 5 posts and no would ever respond again, hence my first post, but apparently that is not the case and we are incapable of having level-headed conversation here, though not to my surprise.

Railey2 wrote:

I gave a definition of talent at the beginning of my post.

It's a poor definition for the reasons already mentioned in my previous posts.
I don't disagree with your logic overall but I think that the OP draws an image that is way too pessimistic and has the intention to lead people to the conclusion that they don't have talent even though it is not evident how much talent they actually have.
It basically tells people that they should give up before even trying based on arbitrary numbers. That is what I consider awful, not your actual arguments.

I'm surprised how many ppl missed the point here...

This might sound irrelevant but i wanna share my experiences within the topic.
When i was reading OP's post i felt like it has some sort of importance for me until someone mentioned that its an obvious thing. That made me ralize it was so obvious to me that i didnt even think about it up until now. Maybe I'm the only one but insead of getting the point i stared to apply Railey's wiev to other things i wanna be succesful at so i ended up feeling bad at the end. This might be how ppl got pissed off and misunderstood things.
Endaris said everything else i wanted to add so thats all i wanna say.

winber1 wrote:

honestly, the moment i read op's post, i was like this is fucking obvious and useless and it would just get shut down in like 5 posts and no would ever respond again, hence my first post, but apparently that is not the case and we are incapable of having level-headed conversation here, though not to my surprise.

Because you probably can't see your own talent and other people may not be able to see it based on your scores. If someone was untalented in too many areas of osu! and doesn't have the intelligence or proper mindset to get better, then that is something they have to discover, not be told. Being good at osu! is not just one talent, there are several different talents you can have that can all relate to being good at osu!. Some talents, such as natural finger speed, may be more visible than others. Some talents wouldn't be as obvious, such as someone who has high mental stamina and can play for hours upon hours without losing focus. It's a great talent to have, but it wouldn't be very visible to yourself or others unless maybe they observed you. Another talent you might have is good spacial awareness of the screen, but you wouldn't realize that unless you got to the level where you could practice EZ mod. There have been so many cases of players seeming to have an epiphany and just instantly boost way up, perhaps because of talent that wasn't realized or utilized before, the progression isn't the same for anyone. I would argue that a great mindset, good work ethic, and a decent amount of talent in some categories are all you need to become top 50 (of course not #1 in the world, though).

Railey2 wrote:

Boomdopew wrote:

I did a little search before on players who were around the 160cm height range and Muggsy Bogues showed up. Does this counters OP's recent points?

that depends. Do you think he could have made it in 2016?

Coming from someone who watches a lot of basketball and knows a lot of stuff about it, I reckon that he can. Muggsy Bogues was an exceptional passer, stealer, and he was one of the fastest players in the game at the time, and that was during the era of the Bad Boys and Michael Jordan, where in physicality and dominating your opponent is everything. Seeing as how the game right now revolves in tactics and less in physicality, he'd become a top role player for any team out there, especially those looking to utilize counterattacking strategies and run and gun.

Basketball as a game isn't really all about the height, although of course, taller players have an advantage over the smaller ones depending on their role. Michael Jordan didn't lie about anything as he became who he is through hard work. I doubt he'd be known for "The Flu Game" if he didn't have that working alongside his talent.

Hard work works alongside talent, one without the other can't take you to the fullest potential you can be. In my honest opinion though, I feel like a person who relies on hard work will surpass someone who solely relies on his talent and does not give an ounce of effort to nurturing his/her skills. I have no idea how it works with standard, but in basketball, hard work is almost everything.

@Rurree, thanks for your input. I honestly doubt he will take this seriously since OP doesn't do any homework and deny everything what is plain true in this world.

oh no I can never get good xd

@Rurree, really good input on your part. Certainly an interesting point brought up.

Now it's looking like this post is backfiring heavily on OP...But with more points and arguments in place against the whole thing, I'm starting to think what OP said was a little...unplanned? Ain't too sure :/

A post definitely up for discussion.

Omg railey you can't say that some people aren't as talented as others, some people here haven't been through puberty yet. Pls use brain nexted time

NixXSkate wrote:

winber1 wrote:

honestly, the moment i read op's post, i was like this is fucking obvious and useless and it would just get shut down in like 5 posts and no would ever respond again, hence my first post, but apparently that is not the case and we are incapable of having level-headed conversation here, though not to my surprise.

Because you probably can't see your own talent and other people may not be able to see it based on your scores. If someone was untalented in too many areas of osu! and doesn't have the intelligence or proper mindset to get better, then that is something they have to discover, not be told. Being good at osu! is not just one talent, there are several different talents you can have that can all relate to being good at osu!. Some talents, such as natural finger speed, may be more visible than others. Some talents wouldn't be as obvious, such as someone who has high mental stamina and can play for hours upon hours without losing focus. It's a great talent to have, but it wouldn't be very visible to yourself or others unless maybe they observed you. Another talent you might have is good spacial awareness of the screen, but you wouldn't realize that unless you got to the level where you could practice EZ mod. There have been so many cases of players seeming to have an epiphany and just instantly boost way up, perhaps because of talent that wasn't realized or utilized before, the progression isn't the same for anyone. I would argue that a great mindset, good work ethic, and a decent amount of talent in some categories are all you need to become top 50 (of course not #1 in the world, though).

why are you responding to me? lol

When we watch a truly great athlete, musician, actor, or even someone supremely successful with women, we have a tendency to think their skill level must come from one of two ways. Either they’ve worked incredibly hard or they were simply born with this extraordinary amount of talent.

However, in "Talent is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else" by Geoff Colvin, we find that the answer is neither.

Hard work alone is not sufficient to achieve true mastery. All of us work hard every day at our jobs. We devote hundreds of thousands of hours to employment over the course of our lives. But very, very few of us can claim to be truly exceptional performers at our given vocation.

And natural born talent isn’t the answer either. It can, admittedly, be comforting to look at basketball star Kobe Bryant and say, “Well, he was born to play that way,” because the natural talent angle excuses our own mediocrity at basketball or whatever the activity is. We can justify our own midlevel results with the argument that we just weren’t talented enough. Many people feel that the ability to sing or play a musical instrument is a natural talent. But researchers in England looked at school children who performed music at a variety of levels. The assumption was that the most skilled musicians would display some different characteristic, some trait, that separated them from the pack. “The results were clear,” Colvin writes. “The telltale signs of precocious musical ability in the top-performing groups – the evidence of talent that we all know exists – simply weren’t there. On the contrary, judged by early signs of special talent, the groups were highly similar.”

So what made the difference between the rockers and the bumblers? Deliberate practice.

In "Talent is Overrated", Colvin argues that deliberate, methodical, and sustained practice is the way to achieve true mastery, not aimless hard work (no matter how well-intentioned) or relying on natural talent.

“Deliberate practice is also not what most of us do when we think we’re practicing golf or the oboe or any of our other interests,” Colvin writes. “Deliberate practice is hard. It hurts. But it works. More of it equals better performance. Tons of it equals great performance.”

Deliberate practice is defined by identifying exactly what are the skills an activity requires, breaking them down into the smallest components and then rigorously concentrating on these components through a combination of repetition and evaluation. Colvin illustrates this point by examining Ben Franklin’s exhaustive regimen for becoming a better writer. “He did not try to become a better essay writer by sitting down and writing essays,” Colvin writes. “Instead, like a top-ranked athlete or musician, he worked over and over on those specific aspects that needed improvement.”

So how can you apply these concepts to improving your social life? When you go out tonight, do not try to take a woman to bed or try to meet your soulmate. Do not worry about the big picture of your goals. Instead, break that goal down into microscopically small increments. Then, work on those increments over and over and over again.

Just how microscopically should you focus? Here’s an good analogy:

When we think of musicians in the studio, we imagine them playing segments of a song, maybe a few bars at a time. But we think in terms of complete riffs, maybe a guitar solo, or at least 5 seconds of music. However, in a recently published book, British rock journalist Mick Wall writes that megaproducer Mutt Lange “insisted guitarists strike one string at a time, over and over again in order for him to build up the sound of the chords himself on computer.” Imagine that. Nothing is simpler than an open G chord. Yet, professional musicians didn’t even play that one chord. They broke it down even further.

So instead of just looking at large topics like opening or comfort, instead, focus on how you hold your shoulders as you approach the group. Ruthlessly evaluate your performance and master that micro-detail before moving on to another technique. Instead of worrying about your kino skills or how smooth a cold read might be, focus on the warmth and dryness of your hands or the angle of your head as you perform a palm reading.

No one says this will be easy. But in Talent is Overrated, Geoff Colvin explains how normal people can mimic the habits of the truly great. In chapters such as “Applying the Principles in Our Lives” and “Applying the Principles in Our Organizations,” Colvin shows you how to use these practices, regardless of whether you’re trying to learn an instrument, to become a better accountant, or take your social skills to the next level. And certainly this intense focus — even if it is only for a limited time to refine your skills — will tremendously improve your interactions with women and friends.

(Source: https://www.neilstrauss.com/the-game/ta ... nt-matter/)

I checked PDF with this book and i think i can recommend it to everyone who think that "talent" makes difference. You will be supprised how wrong you were in your life and how big silly excuse are words "he is talented".

winber1 wrote:

why are you responding to me? lol

Accidentally clicked on the wrong post, typing on my phone while bored at work lol
I was still responding to you though