Normal:
- 00:38:079 (1,1) - maybe reduce the gap to 1/2, since it feels strange to start the spinner so late

Having a beginner in the set is frankly not needed at all. The easy is already easy enough, not to mention the song is short
Like.. seriously... 00:32:111 (1) - 10 secs of slider. Just why, it's boring as hell (nice sliderart btw)


Last time I actually get involved with a mapset with so many GDs.
Hehh...


PS: SB should be fine. I don't get any more spikes above x9 at all and it's more fluid than before.

MrSergio wrote:

Having a beginner in the set is frankly not needed at all. The easy is already easy enough, not to mention the song is short
Like.. seriously... 00:32:111 (1) - 10 secs of slider. Just why, it's boring as hell (nice sliderart btw)


Last time I actually get involved with a mapset with so many GDs.
Hehh...


PS: SB should be fine. I don't get any more spikes above x9 at all and it's more fluid than before.

ay ya some of diffs were created in order to fill gaps, kfawys diff was actually one of first finished and it was supposed to be easy but it was too ez so had to change to beginner. i kinda personally don't think its wrong to have many gd's but each on their own i guess. you can argue its worse since diffs throughout the set might be not consistent and it would be valid point prolly.

Sonnyc wrote:

The best point I liked was the structures, and then the patterns selected to elaborate the structure. Also the selection of guest difficulty mappers was good. I've got a feeling that they weren't just randomly hired people to make a completed spread, but are selected people to fulfill the concept of your mapping.

also im not sure if mkguh is still around so maybe i should just change for him? its not a big change anyway, idk if im allowed to tho. /me runs

it's a 1/2 spinner change, you surely can.
The fact about GDs is rather the concept of having a lot of them in the set, rather than the GD themselves. They are made quite well indeed, as Sonnyc said, that's also why I'm still willing to help further.


I should probably come up with a better policy and make exeptions where needed...

k changed

added epilepsy warning

alright then

rank hype??

whoops, looks like MrSergio dropped an icon.

Bubble'ım patladığından beri bubble görmüyordum.TİŞİKKİRLİR DİRAİMUR

zigizigiefe wrote:

Bubble'ım patladığından beri bubble görmüyordum.TİŞİKKİRLİR DİRAİMUR

LOL!

Sorry for being harsh, but the Beginner difficulty is just bad.

It ignores the song completely with its rhythm. It's so undermapped that nobody who joins this game (target audience for this difficulty) will even understand how it's related to the music. 00:08:238 (1) - 00:12:217 (3) - 00:16:196 (1) - 00:20:174 (3,4) - Those sliders hint that it's supposed to follow the melody, the rest of the map ignores the melody completely though or simplifies it so hard that any relation to the music isn't noticable by anyone without mapping experience.

The intensity of the map itself is unrelated to the song's intensity. When the song gets more intense, the mapping should get more intense too, this applies for all level of difficulties. In this map, the intense buildup section of the song is followed with an extremely long slider, so all kind of rhythm emphasis is lost for this section. Due to the extremely low density of the map, it is not even possible to follow the song's intensity correctly anyway, but that's another topic.

The spacing of 0.4x is just way too low. This completely ignores the concept of time-distance-equality, because the players have to slow down to less than half of the movement speed when transitioning from a slider to the next object. Moreover, it makes the map look like a giant chain of objects. The stacks don't help with that, either. If you already use such an incredibly low density (which doesn't work, for above mentioned reasons), then atleast spread the objects further out to create movement emphasis, more interesting patterns and use more of the playfield.



There is a reason why osu! starts with 'Easy' or 'Normal' difficulty levels that are pretty difficult to get into for some people compared to other games. This is a rhythm game and even the easiest maps should meet the required quality standards (following the song well, changing intensity based on the song etc). This one doesn't and should be removed entirely from the mapset, no offense to Krfawy.

Desperate-kun wrote:

Sorry for being harsh, but the Beginner difficulty is just bad.

It ignores the song completely with its rhythm. It's so undermapped that nobody who joins this game (target audience for this difficulty) will even understand how it's related to the music. 00:08:238 (1) - 00:12:217 (3) - 00:16:196 (1) - 00:20:174 (3,4) - Those sliders hint that it's supposed to follow the melody, the rest of the map ignores the melody completely though or simplifies it so hard that any relation to the music isn't noticable by anyone without mapping experience. i'll have to disagree, krfawy has mapped to the melody on background which are far less dense than main melody, i'm not sure about "isn't noticable anyone without mapping experience" i think its too early to say that without seeing players play first.

The intensity of the map itself is unrelated to the song's intensity. When the song gets more intense, the mapping should get more intense too, this applies for all level of difficulties. In this map, the intense buildup section of the song is followed with an extremely long slider, so all kind of rhythm emphasis is lost for this section. Due to the extremely low density of the map, it is not even possible to follow the song's intensity correctly anyway, but that's another topic. kinda agree about intensity, however in this scenario its clear that sliders are far harder than multiple notes/shorter sliders because of how map is designed, sliders are far hard beacuse of how fast they are compared to the spacing. and i also believe that sliders follow the melody pretty well with shapes they represent.

The spacing of 0.4x is just way too low. This completely ignores the concept of time-distance-equality, because the players have to slow down to less than half of the movement speed when transitioning from a slider to the next object. Moreover, it makes the map look like a giant chain of objects. The stacks don't help with that, either. If you already use such an incredibly low density (which doesn't work, for above mentioned reasons), then atleast spread the objects further out to create movement emphasis, more interesting patterns and use more of the playfield. can't really disagree much here, but i think its still kinda debatable, let's see what krfawy has to say about this. on the side note however, its possible to argue this map focuses on sliders and slider patterns instead of emphasis through movement between objects.



There is a reason why osu! starts with 'Easy' or 'Normal' difficulty levels that are pretty difficult to get into for some people compared to other games. This is a rhythm game and even the easiest maps should meet the required quality standards (following the song well, changing intensity based on the song etc). This one doesn't and should be removed entirely from the mapset, no offense to Krfawy. i thought quality was pretty ok, it just doesn't follow the song traditional ways and im not sure if it's necessarily a bad thing because almost every easy diffs on sets are same anyway, it wouldn't be much different than other easy/beginner diffs if he had done a traditional one, i think in this scenario where we already have lots of easy/beginner diffs that does the same thing, variety is a good thing.

thanks for your input but i'll kindly have to disagree with "should be removed from the mapset", will still wait the word from krfawy though before my final decision though.

wowww interesting stuff here

My opinion is that Krfawy's diff is fine, I do think the sliders might be a little fast for the spacing used throughout the map, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Removing the diff in it's entirety seems unnecessary, though I have some small recommendations to make the map fit the idea of a starter's difficulty a bit better:

1. 00:08:238 (1) - Make the slider path clearer. As it is right now it's likely confusing for a new player because 1/4th of the slider covers itself in an up/down motion.
2. Consider unstacking 00:25:148 (2) - and 00:29:127 (5) - , stacks usually aren't a good idea in easy diffs, new players usually have a very vague concept of rhythm and stacking 3 notes on top of each other usually will lead to the player getting confused and mashing the keys (ya i speak from experience)

I actually think the diff is cute and like how you executed the sliders even with the limits of distance snap. I understand the concerns raised but hope you don't end up removing it. À lot of easy/normal diffs I see nowadays are people bluntly throwing objects into the editor without much thought put behind it, and I can see you put a lot of effort in making this difficulty. Anyways GL!

As far as I fully understand the point of view that my Beginner difficulty is not that dense, the theory of it ignoring the rhythm is at least contrived and as abstract as an idea of "Krfawy" changing his nickname to "Krwawy".

Firstly, the map is rhythmical as it stresses all the kicks and sounds needed in a pretty obvious and noob-friendly way. Sure, I can agree on the fact it ommits some sounds but still it's done in a regular fashion to make a more fun gameplay just like here: 00:08:238 (1) - it ignores the drumy-clappy like sound on 00:09:233 - but the structure is still straightforward for the newest players and it keeps the rhythm going.

Secondly, the technicality of the song should not allow using the higher spacing with this pace of the song. The actual spacing creates chains, right, and what is wrong with them? They are perfectly visible and catchable and achievable for the audience targeted. Using anything above the digit 0.8 would result in making the spacing a regular jump training for the beginners and now pardon me but the jump trainings are avaiable in Advanced+ diffs and not in the easiest ones. As you said, there is a theory behind making easies and it surely exists but is not used anymore as people think that using relatively high spacing for 1/1 notes like *THIS* for this particular song in the easiest diff is easy enough for the easy playerbase. No, Despie, it is not. That will rather cause people come down with RSI or cancer due to the unrealistically dramatic distances and awful designs.

I am more than sure that I've worded myself in an approachable and so have I mapped my map in that fashion as well. However, if my rejection is going to only slow down the ranking process of the map as you, Desp, are going to veto the map, then I will be more than willing to get my difficulty removed from the set but only if you are going to renominate the map as I am sure that my difficulty being the easiest one is your only concer here and the rest of the set is brilliant in your opinion. If not, I won't agree on removing my difficulty.



EDIT: O Voli's mod here, let me see what you've just written here. XD

00:08:238 (1) - The slider's anchors may be misleading but that's all to be said. The Sliderpath is straighforward for the noobs as I've tested it a few times and I haven't heard any negative remarks about it. *THIS* particular person said the diff was finally the first one that was readable with all sliders and even with the stacks included and even with the actual AR settings, so I believe I don't have to change anything so far. ;3;

What's the problem with the beginner exactly? In my opinion, the rhythms used fit this song perfectly..

00:00:281 (1,2,3,4) - I think we can agree on that this part suits the music good for this level.
00:08:238 (1,2,3) - This follows the long instrument sound
00:16:196 (1,2,3) - So does this
00:22:164 (4) - and this
00:24:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - I also think the rhythm change here fits perfectly because the song changes
00:32:111 (1) - And this is a really creative attempt.

so, what again makes this beginner so bad it needs to be deleted? the distance snap can't really be a problem either, of course you need to follow the slider a bit faster, but i still think that doesn't make the map needing to be deleted..

Krfawy wrote:

As far as I fully understand the point of view that my Beginner difficulty is not that dense, the theory of it ignoring the rhythm is at least contrived and as abstract as an idea of "Krfawy" changing his nickname to "Krwawy".

How is your username related to this topic?

Krfawy wrote:

Firstly, the map is rhythmical as it stresses all the kicks and sounds needed in a pretty obvious and noob-friendly way. Sure, I can agree on the fact it ommits some sounds but still it's done in a regular fashion to make a more fun gameplay just like here: 00:08:238 (1) - it ignores the drumy-clappy like sound on 00:09:233 - but the structure is still straightforward for the newest players and it keeps the rhythm going.

It is 'rhythmical' as in, it follows the song in a so extremely simplified form that it's hard to see what is being followed. Also, our defintions of 'fun' seem to differ here, not sure what's fun about rhythms that sacrifice any rhythm emphasis for having only 3/1-based rhythms everywhere.

Krfawy wrote:

Secondly, the technicality of the song should not allow using the higher spacing with this pace of the song. The actual spacing creates chains, right, and what is wrong with them? They are perfectly visible and catchable and achievable for the audience targeted.

The problem is that, as I already said clearly in my previous post, the time distance equality gets lost in terms of movement speed and the players have to slow down significantly between sliders to a speed that is almost null. The map is most likely playable for newbies but not because the concept is good but because it's so easy that my grandmother could play this. That doesn't make it a good map, though.

Krfawy wrote:

Using anything above the digit 0.8 would result in making the spacing a regular jump training for the beginners and now pardon me but the jump trainings are avaiable in Advanced+ diffs and not in the easiest ones. As you said, there is a theory behind making easies and it surely exists but is not used anymore as people think that using relatively high spacing for 1/1 notes like *THIS* for this particular song in the easiest diff is easy enough for the easy playerbase. No, Despie, it is not. That will rather cause people come down with RSI or cancer due to the unrealistically dramatic distances and awful designs.

I will just ignore what you said here, because it seems like you are not taking yourself serious at all and honestly I don't know what to reply to this. If you seriously think people get RSI from playing Easies then idk. A high visual gap is only a "jump" when the players need to significantly speed up to hit the next note. Having a high visual spacing between notes that are extremely far away is NOT a jump.

Krfawy wrote:

I am more than sure that I've worded myself in an approachable and so have I mapped my map in that fashion as well. However, if my rejection is going to only slow down the ranking process of the map as you, Desp, are going to veto the map, then I will be more than willing to get my difficulty removed from the set but only if you are going to renominate the map as I am sure that my difficulty being the easiest one is your only concer here and the rest of the set is brilliant in your opinion. If not, I won't agree on removing my difficulty.

I am not going to renominate this regardless of what your decisions will be and you won't force me to.



Your attitude is pretty bad, because you are arguing against my concerns with unreasonable and laughable statements (like the RSI), not giving actual reasons why mapped the difficulty like this. I agree there could be some easier Easy difficulties ranked to help beginners get into the game, but reducing a song so extremely is not a way to go, because it makes the relation to the song less and less obvious. Even in the context of having such a difficulty level, your difficulty is badly executed like I explained above and I won't let this get ranked, there is not a single reasonable aspect about it besides the slider art.

Sorry Desperate, but I have to make a case in favour of Krfawy's.
First of all, I don't think you understand that games like this with simplified rhythms can actually be quite fun. I myself found this difficulty extremely fun whilst reverting back to my original trackpad settings, I even have a replay here of which I used my default pad settings to play it, and was quite fun.

If you watched (but you don't need to since the point will still stand), then you'll realise that having the small spacing between notes but the slider speed at a faster value like this is actually quite helpful. When you need to do a full swipe movement to move between any note or slider tick, having notes with extra time between them gives a lot of breathing space between the more hectic sliders, and on the sliders themselves, the slider ticks and length are reasonable so that any swipe movements can go from one tick to the next, with the current 3/1 sliders being a reasonable challenge to aim on. This is why I believe the simplified rhythms are quite good, since they actually do contribute to a fairness for a small minority of players who don't actually get to enjoy many maps due to their own hardware limitations.

I don't see what else to say except this kinda difficulty is just what exactly I would've *wanted* to play more of when I began, seeing as I couldn't pass 1 star maps for about three to four days, and every time difficulties like these get removed for being too slow or easy, it just ruins the entire game for the *actual* newbies or just disadvantaged players.

my 2c
the main problem i think is that the difficulty could fit on to any song with a waltz metronome

current spacing just leaves you on top of the next note waiting for an approachcircle for a whole second whereas i'd argue that there are more intuitive ways of introducing beginners to the game other by "you got to slow down after everything you hit"

it just doesn't seem intuitive to go over twice as fast on sliders than between every other object

00:41:063 (1,1) - these also feel extremely forced after that really long slider especially since there's really clear and distinct 1/1 soudns audible and you map like one of them because it lands on a downbeat or something

also the sb flickers really weirdly at 00:45:042 - is that intentional lol

Okorin wrote:

also the sb flickers really weirdly at 00:45:042 - is that intentional lol

nop talked with kirby and kirby fixed.

I've checked the map in detail again, and I've come to the conclusion that there is really no problem with the map. I have also discussed with Desperate-kun, so there's that.

Yes, one might argue about the Beginner being not dense enough at spots, where there could be more objects placed but is that a problem, if the mapper decides to follow the whole part with a slider, which covers it in a new way? I don't think so. This is additionally a very creative solution, to let the player experience a new way of playing an "Easy"-Difficulty. He can train to follow a slider intensely - which can also be beneficial for maps which contain similar cases.

The problem about not having too much spacing between the objects should not be an issue at all for beginner players. We can gladly ask player to play this difficulty - I'm pretty sure that there won't be any problems to play it, as it will be clear what exactly needs to be clicked - this furthermore is another reason why the rhythm should be kept simple.

Then there's the problem with the map not following the song properly and I'm sorry, but this is definitely not the case here. It follows the instruments just fine - I don't really see where the argument of simplifying rhythm comes from to be honest, because isn't the aim of an Easy difficulty to have begnner-friendly rhythm, so they don't get confused?

That's the reason why I've decided to re-check this mapset in future, so it can be rebubbled again. Holding a veto against this seems definitely not like the right choice in this case.

Why a Light Insane map have in the final of song changes in SV of x1,50 and then x2,00?
Beautiful in Editor, but Terrible and Horrible play this, totally unpredictable, the same in the middle of music, if you want to change the SV, change in max 1,5

honestly, I can't see how it plays "terrible and horrible", because it seems perfectly fine for me, in middle part 1/2 gaps between sliders are making htting it trivial, so I decided to keep it

after discussing with diri. we changed finale to 1.25x-1.0x.-0.75x though to better express music

thanks for your time!

MrSergio wrote:

Having a beginner in the set is frankly not needed at all. The easy is already easy enough, not to mention the song is short
Like.. seriously... 00:32:111 (1) - 10 secs of slider. Just why, it's boring as hell

well, I guess I was too prone to accept this since I considered my opinion to be not so relevant (oh, looks like I'm apparently someone whose opinion is actually valuable in this context tho. I didn't know this :^) )

Apart from that ^ , I do see the Beginner as pointless in the set tho and I told you at least a couple of times already.
My reasons are mainly that 1) it is hella boring with that 10 secs sliderart and 2) it ignores a lot, and I mean A LOT, of rhythms in the song. At this point it is like normally clicking at random since the pauses between each click is huge. You barely have any resilient trace of ~rhythm~.

It is ok to make something easy for new players, but this is already a 40 sec song and you pretend to even simplify this more than what is actually needed.
Unless our new players are really at such level to require something like this, obviously.

MrSergio wrote:

Unless our new players are really at such level to require something like this, obviously.

Perfect for me when I started, would love to have more way simplified maps like this

i had tries playing osu with trackpad sometime, and surprisingly enough i couldnt really pass most easy difficulties in sets since i dont really know how to use trackpad in osu, and i did use trackpad before in my life for other stuff so its not like i have 0 knowledge of it.

considering someone who isnt too familiar with computers and wanted to play osu, most easy diffs are actually too hard for them and i believe that is where krfawys beginner is necessary.i also dont really believw the map doesnt hinders the sets quality by any means whatsoever.

I wanted to wait for a proper reply from Krfawy, but might as well throw this in here now.

I know that a lot of beginners struggle with the Easys we have, that's no question. But you'll find this situation in nearly every rhythm game and there is a simple reason: Reducing the difficulty too much will result in rhythmic simplifications to such an extent that the relation to the music is ruined, which goes against the concept of a rhythm game. If you are making a platformer game you can create a tutorial stage as easy as you want because you are the one who fully decides about the concept of the stage, how many obstacles there are etc. But for a rhythm game you are bound to what the song provides, and this doesn't only have an upper limit but also a lower limit, because there's a line (that has been crossed here) where the rhythms become unidentifiable.

It's nice that you are having contact to newbies and ask them how easy it is for them to get into the game and how well they play certain things. Have you ever asked them though, how much do they feel that osu! maps relate to the actual song? Most people I've talked to, especially those with some musical knowledge who aren't satisfied with simply 'doing well-timed clicks to the beat', don't get how most modern Easys relate to the song at all. I've had people literally asking me what about osu! is supposed to be a rhythm game. And this map is a very extreme case of this issue.

Now, I didn't point out specific rhythms where I see those issues before, because it basically applies to the whole map. However, I will do this now, to make my point more clear. I really don't want to create any confusion with what I am saying here. With the conception in mind, that the whole map is supposed to follow the melody (which I can see only because I have some experience in mapping, I highly doubt newbies will be able to see this):
00:00:281 (1,2,3,4) - In this part of the song, there is clear emphasis on the switch between strings and the other melody instrument. The repeated sliders go well with the soft instrument, but then the strings have a much more dense, strong rhythm that puts emphasis on much more than just 00:03:265 (2,4) - these beats.
00:08:238 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - The long sliders fit well to the long melody notes in the music in theory, however (again, due to the extreme rhythmic simplicity) the same rhythm is used multiple times in a row, while the music is so different each time. 00:10:227 - has no sound, 00:14:206 - has a sound, 00:18:185 - has no sound again (from the melody). What the melody does, also in terms of how strong certain notes are played, is different in each measure here, however it's all mapped with the same, monotonous rhythms.
00:24:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Once again, 00:24:153 (1,2,3) - actually fits the melody quite well, because there is very strong emphasis on those beats here, but between those objects 00:26:143 (3,4) - the instrument clearly builds up in intensity to lead back into 00:28:132 - to repeat the rhythm again. Having more density in between those objects would ressemble the song better, but as it is now it's all just 3/1-rhythms without much emphasis at all.
00:32:111 (1,1) - And yes, I still stand by my point that the long slider is out of place if it covers the most intense section of the song completely. Not clicking at all throughout this whole section takes away all kind of rhythm emphasis from this section, where it's probably needed the most. About the last note, Okorin already explained that there are equally important beats around it.

So yeah, I hope this can serve as a better explanation why I disagree with the rhythm this map uses.



Now, to talk about the spacing again. No matter what way you put it, 0.4x DS in this case is so low that there is almost no movement required for the timeframe of almost a whole second (gap between two of the beats followed). It makes no sense in the context of a map because almost no movement means basically no emphasis through movement. All of the objects in the map might as well be stacked and it would make no difference gameplay wise (not counting readability). Saying that a higher spacing would be too difficult to play for newbies is unreasonable, because the sliders themselves are significantly faster and require more precision during their timeframe (due to sliderticks having to be aimed, etc.). Krfawy, you basically said that players can aim the sliders well, even on this realatively high speed (which is true) but if the spacing were higher they couldn't aim the circles? It makes no sense.

I hope my points are a bit more clear now, since people also requested me to point out examples. Here we go.

Arphimigon wrote:

MrSergio wrote:

Unless our new players are really at such level to require something like this, obviously.

Perfect for me when I started, would love to have more way simplified maps like this

My statement was clearly implying sarcasm. This sort of rhythms can't be called rhythms anymore considering how clicks are spaced apart lol.
A song is made by pauses between notes, but if such pauses are too long it will be just a bunch of notes played from time to time. That's not a song anymore imo and therefore a map is not possible on it.

Please don't come up with excuses as "when I tried to play with trackpad" or "when I was a newbie..." because I bet you don't remember exactly and as Desp said, even if you do remember you probably couldn't analyze things properly at the time.

Also, notice this is not a personal attack towards anyone. I (or we) just want to make sense out of it, if I can say it that way...


#m0d

Finally done with that piece of worthless junk. Crap, Krfawy, when you started making things like Kac (TV Size) and Prologue, I actually started getting my hopes up that you were finally going to break out of your terrible Slut Off and Caged Heart stage and start cranking out truly admirable maps. Even though Wiosna raised a red flag or two, I still had high hopes. And then this self-indulgent pretentious abomination gets vomitted onto the site. This is not only your worst map, but possibly the worst map I have ever seen. Why? Others were bad as satire, ignorance, age, or inexperience. You qualify for none of these categories, you have no excuse. Believe me, I have nothing against Instrumental Songs, be it piano, guitar, or flute. And I have no problem with someone in the osu community championing the genre as a flagship of broadening horizons. What I do have a problem with is that you, the person championing it, have absolutely no respect for the music or its structure. At the slightest strum of a guitar or hit of a snare drum, you are more than happy to start disregarding the music and just throwing ugly and pointless anti-jumps where you just make the distance and position anywhere you feel like, no matter how awful the end result is. This vulgar excuse for a map reeks of every stupid and arrogant Krfawism the community has had to bear witness to: Extreme anti-jumps with no musical reasoning, sky low DS at all times, streams that just not decide to jump to some random part of the playing field with no warning because you didn't map streams, buckshot spread patterns with no cohesive structure, no streams that space out to absurd degrees because again, they don't exist, rampant abuse of no SV changes and no BPM modification to cover up lazy mapping, slider anti-jumps that clearly are just cases of Ctrl+H and Ctrl+J abuse, and worst of all, using the music genre as your own little shield to justify every little moment of "I map like this because fuck you, I'm Krfawy" you can stuff in your pathetic and self-subservient maps. Stop using songs as canvases for your abhorrent "artistry", stop using your cult of personality to force your lazy work on others, and stop thinking that maps are good just because a computer designed to perfectly perform with flaw can manage to beat it.

MrSergio wrote:

Please don't come up with excuses as "when I tried to play with trackpad" or "when I was a newbie..." because I bet you don't remember exactly and as Desp said, even if you do remember you probably couldn't analyze things properly at the time.

No, I do play with trackpad and these kind of easier difficulties are great for it.
And I may not remember exactly what it was like to be new, but I do have many new players as friends and I play many easy maps myself. Now I can analyze them now and still have this position, my points still stay the same.

Desperate wrote:

Krfawy, you basically said that players can aim the sliders well, even on this realatively high speed (which is true) but if the spacing were higher they couldn't aim the circles? It makes no sense.

My replay says otherwise, had just as much trouble on the circles as the sliders

Simplified rhythm isn't "non rhythm game" like, it's a simple difficulty for a game. It still has a rhythm, and even yet, the rhythm exists.

Oh geez... I certainly hope this situation isn't going to get any worse. While there are lots of controversy for Extra difficulties and the like, it's certainly unconventional to see so much attention set on a Beginner difficulty either. I know there are concerns about whether the difficulty, or lack thereof, in a map and whether it's trivial, but perhaps there could be improvements or at least a compromise that can make it work.

I don't think there really the one correct assessment of what a beginner should or should not expect aside from the standard mapset conventions we have existing. We could theorize or think about how the ideal newbie is going to play osu!, but we're going to have our own subjective views on it. My personal viewpoint, if it helps to improve everyone's perspectives, is that 181 BPM is on the upper echelon of speed, and while having constant 1/1 notes does follow Easy difficulty conventions, it can be a bit challenging for a player to try keeping up. So I can see that the Beginner difficulty has value in that the notes are spaced as if it's 90 BPM 1/1, though I do agree that the spacing could be increased a bit more, or perhaps a few more notes could be added. My perspective is based on the rhythms of DDR games though, and the Beginner difficulty generally follows that well, as the empty beats help give a player time to react, whereas the Easy difficulty is not as forgiving. Though one could say that the sliders may help with that reaction too, but I guess this is where hypothetical situations and theorycrafting reach imaginative levels.

But either way, it's going to be really difficult to contend for arguments like how beginner players are going to respond to this, since things can vary. I think, really, it's best for Krfawy to come by and discuss with Desperate's points he brought up and either agree, respectfully disagree, or work out a compromise between the two. The better matter would be addressing these concerns, and if in disagreement, why so.

With this much discussion, you can certainly see that there's a bit of tension and frustration in the room. While I don't think it's right for diri to make a meme post (albeit it gives me chuckles), I think we can all see as to why there's this kind of eggpain here. After all, the natural inclination would be to think, "Why focus so much attention on this? It's just a beginner difficulty, for crying out loud!". Though it's nice to see there be consideration for beginner players too.

I say just wait for what Krfawy has to say, and we all take it easy and see where we can go from there. Just relax and enjoy how cute and moe Granat-chan is. <3

Best said by the one and only Kirby

ya, by no means my post was directed to anyone here, i was merely trying to chill the mood. if someone is offended from it feel free to remove/edit the post, but i personally think its pretty funny /me runs

What do I think of beginner/low star difficulties (and why I make them and sometimes support people making them)

This might sound hypocritical from me, but I do have some objections about the beginner difficulty. I've done that several times, several times not extremely reasonably, but there was a certain philosophy behind it which I would like to elaborate a little bit.

Why do you need a beginner/low star difficulty? It was usually to not have only 2-diff spread for low-BPM or very calm songs, I didn't want to look like a lazy mapper. That is not super reasonable, but it still makes a little bit of sense. Another reason was because I wanted to give the Hard few jumps for emphasis - the map was still very calm, didn't need anything more than a bit easier hard, with some elements that usually appear in insane. That automatically means that the Normal cannot be as easy, it needs to remove few mapping techniques from the hard (jumps, spacing changes, 1/4 notes etc.) and decrease the overall density of objects. But that means that the real easy is missing. You don't need to include it, but if you want to, there's no issue about it, you will provide the map to one more group of people and more people might enjoy it in the result. The last reason I can remember of was to make a very introductory map for beginners, but when is it really needed? If there is an Easy in a regular pop song, it is usually won't happen, but sometimes the song is just so complicated that if you want to simplify in a consistent spread, the Easy will still keep the complicated rhythms. And that's not bad, it will learn you to get used to the complicated rhythms, then you can move to Normal etc. However, before that, you always need to know how to click properly to some constant and straightforward rhythm. In such a case, having a beginner difficulty is in my opinion more than welcome. Because newcomer will be able to play the map with a simplified rhythm, but won't be much interested in something that doesn't look constant to them.

Now, if I take a look at your map, being seen as a lazy mapper is probably not a problem in this mapset, so even though having only few diffs would not be extremely good reason for having a pointless difficulty, we have more than enough here. Easy->Advanced mostly only change SV, spacing and density. Not many skill-based techniques are added, easy is not forced to be complicated rhythmically nor movement-wise, so the second and third idea also don't apply much. However, yes, the easy is not as easy as some people would expect due to the slider velocity etc., so maybe some kind of introductory difficulty would be acceptable, I would not have much against that.

Nevertheless, they way you chose to map it is not probably the best one. If you are really attempting to provide a difficulty that should introduce the players to the game and you are afraid that current easy is too hard, yeah, go with some beginner, but keep in mind that you want to simplify the song rather than to skip certain parts of the song. The introductory difficulties with help in 3 ways - It work the same as a tutorial, you have enough time to realise that you have to click and aim etc., the thing it will teach you is to hold some constant rhythm - it will teach you to play the important sounds accurately, and the last point is that it will teach you the time-distance rule, which is useful in the beginning as most E-H maps use constant spacing.

Actually addressing the issue

1. Issue - Ignoring sounds

I would understand this: 00:00:281 (1) - You are skipping really unimportant parts of the song, only the guitar/harp (or whatever plucked string instrument it is). But things like: 00:08:238 (1) - 00:12:217 (3) - 00:16:196 (1) - are quite an abuse of the whole importance of the difficulty just for sake of slider art. You are omitting important sounds that are basically the only important thing in such a basic difficulty. New players don't need to know how to hold a slider for 2 seconds if they can learn to click properly instead, which is giving them some actual skill. 00:32:111 (1) - This would be obvious, quite an intense part of the song, but the slider just ignores anything it has and forces you to hold it for like 8 seconds.

If you think about it, easy is pretty much full of 1/1 and 2/1 sliders and circles (also 1/1 or 2/1). The beginner however uses 3/1 sliders (mostly with repeats), which would be fine, but also a plenty of 6/1 sliders and even a 24/1 slider and some circles with about 3/1 gaps. The difference is very major and it is not even filling the purpose that an introductory difficulty could have. You could easily map sounds such as 00:09:233 - 00:13:212 - instead of the pointlessly long sliders and you would take the constant rhythm (that will teach newbies something) back. Now, you can think about this part, 00:32:111 (1) - you don't necessarily need to get away all the slider art. You can notice that sounds like 00:33:105 - on the sliders are quite unattractive for clicking, they are not significant enough, however each other sound like 00:34:100 - 00:36:090 - 00:38:079 - is kind of a strum, which is more significant and maybe would also be worth mapping. This time, you could use the 6/1 sliders with your slider art - not only the part sounds somewhat mysterious (might be fitting well for interesting shapes), it will also not ignore important sounds that occur here, will provide a more constant and sensible rhythm and most importantly, will get a rid off the difference between the next difficulty.

2. Spacing/SV

While I think the SV is pretty playable for any newbie, they way objects are placed is going against any time-distance rule. You tend to move on the slider for about the same amount as you would move from object to object for the same amount of time. It might be a bit lower, but less then half looks like an extreme to me, just for sake of making an easier difficulty. Again, this won't help newbies in any way, the will be resting for seconds on the same place instead of actually having to write the movement into their hands. The stacks you are using are not doing it much better, there is almost no motion that would teach the newbies anything and it just creates a bit unpleasant reading. Objects clustered in one place are not always perceived in a good way.

That's probably all I'd like to say here. I don't aim this directly at Krfawy nor anyone who stands behind him. I'm just giving some of my subjective opinion + arguments for why it doesn't necessarily need to be completely purged, but also why it is not 100% alright and doesn't actually help as much as it could if you are going for any kind of introductory difficulty.

- Normal -
(In my opinion I really don't like the whistle place ment here, I prefer it on every 1st and or 3rd "4th note" white tick i mean.)
00:05:254 (3,4) - Shouldn't 3 be a slider and 4 be a circle?
00:10:227 (1,2) - Shouldn't this combo be like before? Why did you change the rythm?
00:38:079 (1) - I feel like that this slider should end at 39:737 and the spinner should start 40:068.
- Mk's Hard -
00:34:432 (2,3) - These should stack like the other two that are after this.
- Antaraes' Light Insane - <Is it supposed to be spelled like that lul
00:14:704 (4) - I know that you were intending on making this cool pattern, but the song doesn't represent it. Why did the spacing change when the music didn't?
00:15:699 (4) - ^
00:32:608 (4) - ^
00:33:603 (4) - ^

I hope this helped!

ViolentBoo wrote:

- Antaraes' Light Insane - <Is it supposed to be spelled like that lul close enough lol
00:14:704 (4) - I know that you were intending on making this cool pattern, but the song doesn't represent it. Why did the spacing change when the music didn't? the point of actual pattern is to emphasize slider (5) without stacking and i think antijump here plays pretty well and it's more fun than equality in DS, same for rest obviously

thanks for your mod!

Since I received quite a massive response on the particular moments of my map with the very clear instructions on what the BNG and the staff actually mean, I would like to address your points of view properly too! Also, I've finally finished my first part of the examination session at college so I finally have time to log in osu. YAY!

The SV & spacing concept seems to be the most problematic issue as from the technical point of view the pace of the sliders and the spacing values should be as close as possible for the sake of the timing-movement theory which in most cases would be said to be correct and set as an exemplary master form. However, the problem starts here in the structural point. As long as that would seem logical to follow, the problem is the sliders are already fast due to the high BPM where it could have been set to something slower but I didn't want to make it unsuitably low due to the point, as pointed by Desperate, that the actual SV is acceptable and friendly enough for the playerbase, nor did I want to provide the settings that would provide difficulty spikes. The problem is that the playerbase (noobs) will only be able to entirely focus on one difficult aspect of the play which in this case is the SV. In this scenario, the lower spacing that brings relatively small portions of movement (a reminder: "small" ≠ "without" or "merely"), the better. In this map I've been using "slider-circle" patterning where we have to remember clicking circles requires gravely more accuracy and aim than the sliders. What I'm trying to say is that newer players will be at least depressed and/or angry if we compile two factors together: the relatively high spacing and the relatively high slider velocity in one mass. As long as the mapping community might say the technique used here is uncommon and aberrant it actually brings the balance between the fast pace of the slider and the ability to aim another note without trying to assess how fast the players have to move the cursor and click with it. Beginner difficulties are supposed to introduce the players to the rhythmical game but the Easy difficulty on this set would be too demanding with its "slider velocity = distance" settings. Obviously, yes, the easy difficulty is comparatively easy to the already ranked Granat sets but the problem is the most of the mappers probably focused on mapping them in the "easy and legible patterns" but not "easy enough for the newer audience" fashion, and yes, these are maps to be seen as the ones with the spacings and velocities having similar values. My complaint here is as written a few lines before: the skills required for these Easies and Normals are still too high for someone who has just started the game. As long as technically they do not contain issues or mistakes, the technicality is not the only gauge of what actually makes the map appropriate as the easiest difficulty on the set. Right now I would like everyone to read these words carefully: due to the fact that I am a noob player that knows what plays like a true easy and due to the fact that I've been spending most of my time on this mapping field I can tell what is easy enough and what is not. What I'm trying to say is that people who have posted their concers on the Beginner difficulty are not new players, neither are they people who can't play this game properly and the people complaining are saying one basic thing that can be stated as "the general simplification of the rhythm in this map to the most basic claps and kicks doesn't work as it happens to be done in an extreme way that follows too little sounds where there are more sounds that do exist and that do need to be stressed and followed with more logically placed notes as right now the rhythm is too basic, so ruined, and it doesn't provide any actual feedback for the audience targeted." The issue is that the people mentioning these issues are people who do not think in the way the noobs think, namely "the simpler, the better" and they do not notice the difference between simplifying the rhythm and the music at the same time with tickrates and sliderheads and sliderends like in this moment: 00:08:238 (1) - when the objects probably would have been changed into around 3-5 objects instead of this slider right here if the difficulty were mapped by them. As long as I understand the concers about the difficulty containing very simple rhythms I do not take the comment "it's too basic and it doesn't follow the rhythms and the song anymore" as that's a typical behaviour from people who do not understand the abstract thinking of the people who cannot play anything harder than 1-star maps. I am not trying to offend anyone here except Bathory but simply I cannot expect people with your playing skills and more demanding way of thinking to understand what is the actual, real and desired design of the actual beginner difficulty for such a song due to a simple fact: your depiction of a Beginner difficulty starts with rhythms that create a difficulty that would be called by us, the noobs, a hard and quite dense Easy difficulty or a Normal difficulty.

If the text is too long for you, Irre wrote pretty much everything in a self-explanatory (and way shorter) way a few days ago and actually explained most of my ideas: *CLICK*

About the stacks - these are totally playable for the noobs, tested myself, tested by other noobs and not-so-nooby noobs as well. Also they stress the most audible and significant sounds of the... er... instruments? I am unsure what exactly is used there... Still, even though the stacks are usually problematic, these are made in an approachable way.

And about the jellyfish pattern there: 00:32:111 (1) - due to the high density of the sounds here I've decided to do the most common thing used in most easier difficulties in the moments when there are lots of sounds that would be mapped but not with reversing or circles but with a long slider that would stress the particular strums (thank you for the word Wafu, I didn't know this one and it happens to be very helpful here) with slider ticks. However, Oko pointed a very important part about the sounds starting from there: 00:38:079 - I am going to redesign the slider a bit and put a few more notes to stress the change in the music in order to stress the significant sounds there. I am going to spare the spinner though, I am sure people would kill me if I removed the spinner and so far I don't think there is any more appropriate place for it. However, if it were just for me, I would kill the slider with a circle or a sliderend, but the community spinning the spinners are more important I guess. <___<

Guys, I see your concers why you think the difficulty is bad as I've ommited (I'd say "simplified") the rhythms in the fashion done but it's definitely not the case where I put 2 sliders a single circle and a spinner in the whole difficulty and I am not sure whether you're telling me the difficulty is bad just because of the high BPM or because you see it as something undermapped and as something that "could fit on to any song with a waltz metronome". Definitely the latter option is not the case.

EDIT: Updated Beginner down there:

updated, i hope that krfawy's post has shed some light to whats going on, and that issues will be solved peacefully if there are further considerations with the difficulty.

It's okay then, moving on.

Desperate-kun wrote:

It's okay then, moving on.

That passive aggressiveness tho.

Beginner difficulty: 00:32:111 (1) - is slightly offscreen even in 16:9.


also I love how there's literally 22 objects mapped for beginner...