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[Proposal] osu!standard ruleset draft (General)

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Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Mods wont be considered, only the default osu experience. The way hidden works can be changed and new mods could be added, also i doubt you want all maps to be passable on spun out and HR or something.
Stacking sliders and readability limitations are specific to certain difflevels and will be handled there.
If you have to resort to comboing in a weird attempt to make something more intuitive you should question the pattern itself...

Why should being intuitive be a requirement? Some songs arent intuitive because they weirdly change tempos etc, why should such parts of maps be intuitive to play?
Whats intuitive and what isnt is largely depending on your skilllevel how do you want to find a baseline for intuitive?
This seems like writing "maps must be fun" into the RC to me
J1NX1337
248 posts
Joined February 2014
J1NX1337
It's not a requirement, just a guideline.
So it's fine to make the map completely unreadable then and say the players just aren't experienced enough to read it?
Also even if the song makes sudden changes in tempo or something, the mapper can still affect the intuitiviness of those parts, so why shouldn't they?
The baseline of intuitiviness lies in the difficulty of the map which is aimed at a specific part of the playerbase separated by skill, so I don't think it's recommended to pull off stuff like completely overlapping sliders on Hards for example.

Why should the maps be intuitive to play? Because it reduces frustration and makes them generally more enjoyable to play. I'm not saying every map has to be like this and I'm sure there's people who enjoy reading challenges and mappers who like to use a complex style, but if you have a chance to make your map much easier to read by adding a new combo for example, I think that should be recommended. I don't think most people like breaking combo like 3/4ths into the song on their first playthrough because something was completely unexpected and unreadable. And if they do, I think the mapper should have to explain why they're doing this and why it would benefit their map more, so I see it as a possible guideline.

Also I don't care if you disagree on this, but yes I think all maps should at least be passable on Hard Rock. The mods are kind of a big part of the game too and I don't see why they shouldn't be taken into account when mapping.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu

J1NX1337 wrote:

It's not a requirement, just a guideline.
Guidelines are to be treated as rules unless you can exhaust all arguments against your choices.

Also the reloading sliderthing you mentioned in your first post is already on the draft (relevant part in italics):

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous cannot be used, such as burai sliders and hold sliders without straightforward slider borders. Perfectly overlapping slider bodies must give enough time to fully read each slider’s path.

J1NX1337 wrote:

The baseline of intuitiviness lies in the difficulty of the map which is aimed at a specific part of the playerbase separated by skill, so I don't think it's recommended to pull off stuff like completely overlapping sliders on Hards for example.

Okorin wrote:

Stacking and readability limitations are specific to certain difflevels and will be handled there.

J1NX1337 wrote:

Why should the maps be intuitive to play? Because it reduces frustration and makes them generally more enjoyable to play. I'm not saying every map has to be like this and I'm sure there's people who enjoy reading challenges and mappers who like to use a complex style, but if you have a chance to make your map much easier to read by adding a new combo for example, I think that should be recommended. I don't think most people like breaking combo like 3/4ths into the song on their first playthrough because something was completely unexpected and unreadable. And if they do, I think the mapper should have to explain why they're doing this and why it would benefit their map more, so I see it as a possible guideline.
The point being is: What's unreadable to you might be perfectly fine to other people around your skill level or around the level of the target audience of the map. Reading in itself is a skill too and limiting reading challenges for the sake of what some people find "more enjoyable" doesn't make the most sense to me.

J1NX1337 wrote:

Also I don't care if you disagree on this, but yes I think all maps should at least be passable on Hard Rock. The mods are kind of a big part of the game too and I don't see why they shouldn't be taken into account when mapping.
Let's say it like this: You are mapping for the default experience. If someone goes to your map and decides "I want to play this with a mod", then they're modifying the map from its default experience and addressing things in such a setting for a mod whose behaviour can be modified (see the semi-recent change to the way hidden handles sliders which makes a few things a lot easier to comprehend) and as such it shouldn't require a map that is not passable on HR to be disqualified and a change enforced. People would only notice this behaviour if HR plays are reasonable for a human to begin with.
phaZ
739 posts
Joined October 2011
phaZ
so regarding this maps previous version of sliders https://osu.ppy.sh/s/464485
would these still be unrankable? the current wording is as following:

Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous cannot be used, such as burai sliders and hold sliders without straightforward slider borders

as it says "without straightforward sliderboarders " im guessing that it wouldnt be allowed, although i personally (and what the threads discussion concluded) think that it should be :s
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Okorin wrote:

Let's say it like this: You are mapping for the default experience.
And this is the presumed disagreement. Why aren't you mapping for the largest audience possible? In addition, why should you be allowed to map a theoretical score and make it impossible to attain?
Spork Lover
722 posts
Joined October 2013
Spork Lover

Okorin wrote:

  1. Buzz sliders must have appropriate delay before the next note.
The word must implies that it's a rule rather than a guideline in my opinion, so I think a word like should would be more appropriate, since I feel that "should" is equally limiting to "avoid" for a guideline (as mentioned in almost all the other guideline statements)

I didn't see this mentioned, so felt that I'd just point it out. :)

edit: mistakes were made in the page 5 post lul
Bonsai
1,212 posts
Joined July 2011
Bonsai

those wrote:

Okorin wrote:

Let's say it like this: You are mapping for the default experience.
And this is the presumed disagreement. Why aren't you mapping for the largest audience possible? In addition, why should you be allowed to map a theoretical score and make it impossible to attain?
It's the mapper's decision which audience they want to map for, some want to map for the largest audience possible, which they are still free to do, but some don't want to make the original map suboptimal just so it can be played with every mod (which, as has already been stated multiple times, can be changed - not just visually like HD, score-wipes are still a possibility)
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

J1NX1337 wrote:

Also I don't care if you disagree on this, but yes I think all maps should at least be passable on Hard Rock. The mods are kind of a big part of the game too and I don't see why they shouldn't be taken into account when mapping.
I'm siding with Okirin's decision on not to impose the rule. Let the mapper decide whether he/she wants the map to be mod friendly or not. The point of the ranking criteria (as I understand it) is to disallow shit maps that would be too cringe to play otherwise to be ranked, not to force making maps for a wide demographic.

Also this makes me think about something. Does taking a map that would be unplayable with a mod, changing it slightly to be playable with the mod while preserving most of the map's structure, and then submitting it for ranking count as stealing the map?
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,844 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
All reverse arrows on sliders must be visible, excluding short reversing sliders. Covering up slider reverses can result in sliders being ambiguous to read. Short reversing sliders only require the first reverse to be visible, since the other reverses are expected. Test play your map to confirm if reverse arrows are visible.
might want to say something like using default skin as a guideline for that, because some skins have really massive hitbursts

The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner), the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent. While hitsounds must be audible, these elements are not actively clicked and therefore do not always need feedback.
are we allowed to silence both slider slide and ticks now?
Bonsai
1,212 posts
Joined July 2011
Bonsai

Kibbleru wrote:

The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner), the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent. While hitsounds must be audible, these elements are not actively clicked and therefore do not always need feedback.
are we allowed to silence both slider slide and ticks now?

a guideline wrote:

Avoid silencing both slider ticks and slider slides together. Low volume or blending sound samples are similarly discouraged when inaudible. If a slider tick does not snap to a distinct sound, it can be inaudible.
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,844 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
so its only a guideline now? as rather to being fully unrankable?
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet

Kibbleru wrote:

so its only a guideline now? as rather to being fully unrankable?
Yeah.
The idea that players require audio feedback for holding a sliderbody is pretty outdated. Silencing both parts can still be avoided most of the time, but there are plenty of cases where that shouldn't be required.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
basically after 5 days of discussion and hours of headaches the scenario undeadcapulet described is what we viewed as most reasonable to agree on (Wafu and I legit suffered headaches from that topic, if i recall that correctly)
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
lol i forgot to close this, expect me to open this up with last changes along with posting the diffspecific draft. ok
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Hopefully last reopening time

Changelog
  1. Moved from the diffspecific draft to general guidelines:
    Avoid polarity issues to rhythms that differ from the map's expected rhythm, or use a slider after an irregular gap. This ensures easily understandable rhythm for players.
  2. Reworded:
    1. Try to spread your object placement evenly across the playfield. Objects cluttered in one region of the screen for no reason are highlighted by being cluttered without intent. (previous wording: "are standing out due to this without intent.")
    2. Avoid overlapping objects with other elements of the default and beatmap-specific skins. This refers to all elements that are part of the interface and can be skinned.
    3. All reverse arrows on sliders must be visible with the default or beatmap specific skins, excluding short reversing sliders. Covering up slider reverses can result in sliders being ambiguous to read. Short reversing sliders only require the first reverse to be visible, since the other reverses are expected. Test play your map to confirm if reverse arrows are visible. (previous wording had the italic part omitted)
  3. Moved from Rules to guidelines and reworded:
    Spinners and sliderends should have hitsound feedback. If either are used to represent a held sound and do not end on a distinct sound, no feedback is acceptable. (previous wording: The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner), the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent. While hitsounds must be audible, these elements are not actively clicked and therefore do not always need feedback.)
  4. Added:
    Avoid using similar combo colors in successive combos. Players should be able to differentiate between different combos in a map.

Answers to concerns in the thread
  1. @phaZ question about Shiirn's sakuraburst sliders: one didn't have a clear path, the others: yes.
  2. @Kibbleru: done
... i think the rest was actually answered on the thread before

Closing this on the 7th of December as the changes to the draft here were rather minor. If anyone has something to add about whatever changed, please do so!
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Spinners and sliderends should have hitsound feedback. If either are used to represent a held sound and do not end on a distinct sound, no feedback is acceptable.

"having no feedback is acceptable". is a better wording. otherwise it can also be read as "no form of feedback is acceptable".
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
adjusted
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
since apparently nothing else seems to require changing, I'll go ahead and bubble this for the time being.
bulli
22 posts
Joined August 2011
bulli
Lol, dat bubble.

What do you think about the possibility to pass a map (with every mod)?
I mean something like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/21928

Even Auto would fail this map in terms of HP gauge.

Still a nice map overall.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

bulli wrote:

What do you think about the possibility to pass a map (with every mod)?
I mean something like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/21928

Even Auto would fail this map in terms of HP gauge.
No. IIRC, it was decided that it needs to be at least FCable no mod to be rankable.
bulli
22 posts
Joined August 2011
bulli
I realize that I didn't really state my point.
This map is fcable no mod, but cannot be passed with hr (even if you fc' it til the last spinner, you will fail afterwards).

Do we want that every ranked map is passable with hr? Do we want that as a part of the ranking criteria?
Nao Tomori
Nomination Assessment Team
3,089 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
According to the rules, you could skin hitcircle and not sliderstartcircle and endcircle or you could skin hitcircle with one style, and start/endcircle with a completely different style that looks very different. Shouldn't they be made to be "similar" or something like that for rankability?

extreme example: i could make http://puu.sh/sSrGH/61fda42b68.png my hitcircle, http://puu.sh/sSrLZ/50c8948833.png my slidertick, http://puu.sh/sSrOc/1ce9a125bf.png into the slider start circle and http://puu.sh/sSrPd/7a2b1ae358.png into the slider end circle. obviously this wasn't a problem before the introduction of "new" sliders ( with skinnable start and end ) but now I believe that there should be some guideline about visual cohesiveness or similarity between elements of a custom skin extending beyond being centered and not being the same color.

In addition, it's apparently also rankable to blank out sliderfollowcircle.png which I believe should at least have a guideline against it.

as a further addition, something about not putting transparent hitcircle select thingy would be great for helping out mappers or modders!
_Meep_
1,707 posts
Joined April 2014
_Meep_

bulli wrote:

I realize that I didn't really state my point.
This map is fcable no mod, but cannot be passed with hr (even if you fc' it til the last spinner, you will fail afterwards).

Do we want that every ranked map is passable with hr? Do we want that as a part of the ranking criteria?
I somewhat second this,considering all maps should be able to be played AND completed using ANY mods. I do get that Hard Rock is something that players need to manually turn on to play,and therefore there isn't a need to force the player to play it. But if a map is not do-able with one of the mods on,whats the point of it(the mod) being available to select?

We can't just be like 'Oh its a challenge for players to pass this with HR' kind of thing,if the thing is already impossible in the first place,then it needs be fixed or changed
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
As of today, this set of rules counts as amended and can be found in its valid form at https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Standard_Ranking_Criteria. As of the big amount of changes, only beatmaps submitted past this amendment are going under this new set of rules. Every beatmap submitted prior this amendment will get treated and handled under the previous set of rules.

This legacy regulation expires in 6 months from today on. Everything that is not bubbled within the next 6 months will also be treated under the new ruleset then.

Pay attention to the altered wording regarding guidelines. Guidelines now make you have to follow them, unless you put the effort to explain your reasons for violating them exhaustively and whether or not you can showcase that *not violating them* would harm the quality of your beatmap more than *violating them*. (e.g. if your map would be as good with the violation as without the violation, you still have to comply to the guideline you violated and make amendments accordingly)
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