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osu! ScoreV2 Discussion

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Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
I hope you realise shortpotato that score v2 wouldve replaced score v1 months ago if the management or in this case peppy was really that ignorant.
Many players and mappers also felt positive about having slider accuracy in general but were concerned about the negative effects on maps where slider accuracy is not appropriate (also see Toy's post in this thread).
The answer of Loctav you quoted clearly indicates that the changes on score v2 discussed here will be "for competitive environments" aka tournaments. And tbh as a tournament scoring system I got no massive complaints about score v2 when comparing it to v1.

I'd also like to correct you in one point: There are complaints about score v1, for example the occurences of same combo different acc when the lower acc play has more score.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
Just a question to all the people opposing slider accuracy: What if good accuracy was implemented as a small score bonus rather than penalizing bad accuracy?

I know it's effectively the same thing, but I feel like psychologically it would be better for the game to provide incentive for going the extra mile, rather than punishing players for playing the sliders the way they always have. (not to mention it could be balanced and adjusted more compared to simply slapping players with a 100 or a 50).

Yeah, I'm aware that many maps aren't quite designed with slider accuracy in mind, but just remember that slider accuracy implementation has been an idea for the developers even as far back as 2011. There's several reasons why it hasn't happened yet, but with all of the evolution to the game happening behind the scenes recently, I think it's the perfect time for the developers to finally try to make things work. I'm all for adding more depth to the game, as long as it doesn't cause more frustration with the people who prefer the status quo.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2

TakuMii wrote:

Just a question to all the people opposing slider accuracy: What if good accuracy was implemented as a small score bonus rather than penalizing bad accuracy?

I know it's effectively the same thing, but I feel like psychologically it would be better for the game to provide incentive for going the extra mile, rather than punishing players for playing the sliders the way they always have. (not to mention it could be balanced and adjusted more compared to simply slapping players with a 100 or a 50).

Yeah, I'm aware that many maps aren't quite designed with slider accuracy in mind, but just remember that slider accuracy implementation has been an idea for the developers even as far back as 2011. There's several reasons why it hasn't happened yet, but with all of the evolution to the game happening behind the scenes recently, I think it's the perfect time for the developers to finally try to make things work. I'm all for adding more depth to the game, as long as it doesn't cause more frustration with the people who prefer the status quo.
Missing out on that bonus when not hitting them correctly will feel like a penalty for players that care about acc.


Just introduce 2 different sorts of sliders, the ones with slideracc and the ones without. The ones without can be used in parts where they are essential for the player because of unexpected rhythm changes, or because it'd be unfair to make them acc'd ones (for whatever reason). I don't know why the staff is so stubborn about this issue.

Leave it up to the mappers. Old maps can be kept the way they are. Their leaderboards shall remain untouched.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Railey2 wrote:

Missing out on that bonus when not hitting them correctly will feel like a penalty for players that care about acc.
What I meant was to keep accuracy calculation as it is now, and give only score bonuses to accurate slider hits, similar to how rainbow 300s differ from standard 300s in mania (as in, you can still get 100% accuracy/SS without the bonuses, but with a lower score). I know a lot of other rhythm games take an approach like this too, so it might be a compromise worth thinking about.

...I'm just trying to come up with ways that they could implement slider accuracy without making it frustrating for people. And I highly doubt they'd want to cause a divide in the community by forcing the mappers to make the decision for them.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2

TakuMii wrote:

Railey2 wrote:

Missing out on that bonus when not hitting them correctly will feel like a penalty for players that care about acc.
What I meant was to keep accuracy calculation as it is now, and give only score bonuses to accurate slider hits, similar to how rainbow 300s differ from standard 300s in mania (as in, you can still get 100% accuracy/SS without the bonuses, but with a lower score). I know a lot of other rhythm games take an approach like this too, so it might be a compromise worth thinking about.

...I'm just trying to come up with ways that they could implement slider accuracy without making it frustrating for people. And I highly doubt they'd want to cause a divide in the community by forcing the mappers to make the decision for them.
hmmm

I don't think score provides enough of an incentive to care about slider acc. Personally, I don't give a shit about my score, I just want acc and combo. I know many players think the same. I think if they handle it this way, there is not much of a point in implementing it. I think slideracc should affect the pp-system.

Why do you think that giving acc'd sliders as a tool to mappers would divide the community? If some mappers want to map "old style", they can do that by just mapping old sliders.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Problem would be that new maps with new acc sliders would get a higher judgement for good accuracy, meaning that maps with simple rhythms will be even more overrated due to inflated pp from OD.
As the community is already heavily leaning towards pp-efficient maps this would probably discourage players to play "old" maps even more.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2

Endaris wrote:

Problem would be that new maps with new acc sliders would get a higher judgment for good accuracy, meaning that maps with simple rhythms will be even more overrated due to inflated pp from OD.
As the community is already heavily leaning towards pp-efficient maps this would probably discourage players to play "old" maps even more.
Yes, it would

unless someone thinks up an algorithm that can differentiate between rhythmically complex patterns and the ones that aren't, this will always be a problem.
just look at this mess:


Personally, I don't think that acc sliders will make it much worse than it already is.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Endaris wrote:

smoogipooo wrote:

Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.
It's been a year since v2 has been introduced and to me it looks like it has become a sideproject that is exclusively used for tournament scoring until osu!next is out. So please look at the topic in regards to how it affects tournaments and specifically OWC 2016, not how it affects pp/worse players/whatever.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Railey2 wrote:

Personally, I don't give a shit about my score, I just want acc and combo. I know many players think the same. I think if they handle it this way, there is not much of a point in implementing it. I think slideracc should affect the pp-system.
That's the entire issue with Score V1. Outside of tournaments and multiplayer, there's really no reason to care about score, and even in those environments, it is still pretty flawed. V2 is meant to address that, even if for the moment it only applies to tournaments. Score V2 should make people care about score, so there's no reason to brush off score-only changes.
...And honestly, even if it has 1/10th of the effect on score than it did last year, I still think it could be a possible solution for OWC. It'll provide room for adjustments, anyways.

That being said, if they did make slider accuracy affect PP, I'd still think they'd be better off implementing it as a bonus metric and giving it its own values. It'll allow it to be separately balanced from normal accuracy (allowing a greater degree of control over its effects on the PP meta), while reducing potential issues with calculating old scores (i.e. accuracy and combo percentage will stay the same, old scores with replays can be reanalyzed, old scores without replays remain the same PP value but can be easily replaced). I'm not sure how well it'd would actually work in practice, but it'd likely work better than penalizing players with 100s for not adapting.

Railey2 wrote:

Why do you think that giving acc'd sliders as a tool to mappers would divide the community? If some mappers want to map "old style", they can do that by just mapping old sliders.
The fact you're calling it an "old style" is exactly why it'd divide the community. All it would do is give players less of an incentive to play old maps while causing inconsistency with the design of new maps. I'd rather have it apply to all maps, or not at all.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2
I doubt that people will start to care about score if it is not related to pp. People in this game mostly care about their rank. Score isn't really important unless you play for the leaderboards, but only a very small fraction of people is able to do that.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
This entire thread is about improving the score system, not for complaining about the fact that it's not related to PP. Score V1 has nothing to do with PP for a very good reason, and that's because it's fundamentally flawed.
Score already plays a role in PP within osu!mania, so I can see the same happening to standard mode if ScoreV2 ever becomes good enough to become a permanent part of the game. But I digress.

besides, my point earlier doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that score and PP aren't related
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

TakuMii wrote:

This entire thread is about improving the score system, not for complaining about the fact that it's not related to PP. Score V1 has nothing to do with PP for a very good reason, and that's because it's fundamentally flawed.
This doesn't make sense.
If score v1 had something to do with pp then it would be fundamentally flawed because it wouldn't make sense to look at it as a second metric.
Anyway...still no feedback from smoogi/Loctav on the topic so I assume that just >something< will happen to score v2 and none knows what until it's ready.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
What I meant was that the issues with Score V1 have been known long before PPv2 was conceived, and this was the reason they decided not to let it influence PP in any way. Considering that osu! still uses the score system to determine your "best score", there's no other reason to exclude it if it weren't for its flaws.
i lov feet
i lov feet
:?: So Do you prefer ScoreV1 or ScoreV2 ?? :?:

Vote here :P : https://goo.gl/rkPSDM

Result here :P : https://goo.gl/OQo1Wa
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

Seijiku wrote:

:?: So Do you prefer ScoreV1 or ScoreV2 ?? :?:

Vote here :P : https://goo.gl/rkPSDM

Result here :P : https://goo.gl/OQo1Wa
And this is what we call absolutely pointless
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Seijiku wrote:

:?: So Do you hate change or do you blindly accept the future ?? :?:
fixed

...Seriously though, we have no idea how ScoreV2 is actually going to be. This is pretty pointless.
JTF195
6 posts
Joined September 2014
JTF195
I think slider ends should break combo like slider ticks do.

AFAIK, they're the only gameplay element that adds to combo but doesn't break combo. That isn't consistent.

It doesn't make sense that you can play through a song without a combo break OR full combo
Cuber
29 posts
Joined April 2014
Cuber

JTF195 wrote:

I think slider ends should break combo like slider ticks do.
AFAIK, they're the only gameplay element that adds to combo but doesn't break combo. That isn't consistent.
It doesn't make sense that you can play through a song without a combo break OR full combo


Objectively, I think you're right, but good luck convincing people to change that lol
7ambda
2,560 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda

JTF195 wrote:

I think slider ends should break combo like slider ticks do.

AFAIK, they're the only gameplay element that adds to combo but doesn't break combo. That isn't consistent.

It doesn't make sense that you can play through a song without a combo break OR full combo
I like leniency-abusive slider maps the way they are.
JTF195
6 posts
Joined September 2014
JTF195

JTF195 wrote:

I think slider ends should break combo like slider ticks do.

AFAIK, they're the only gameplay element that adds to combo but doesn't break combo. That isn't consistent.

It doesn't make sense that you can play through a song without a combo break OR full combo
According to this recent reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/518xwg/since_notch_hell_is_getting_ranked_slider_ends there's also the fact that slider ends are apparently checked 36ms early. I'm sure there's a reason for that, but I'm not sure what it might be, or if it might be worth revisiting


To clarify, I'm not saying that either of those mechanics should be changed in standard gameplay anytime soon, or ever.

But, ScoreV2 and/or osu!next present an opportunity to fix those inconsistencies without affecting the existing experience.
Franc[e]sco
189 posts
Joined August 2009
Franc[e]sco
Except for maybe spinners being worth too much, I think scorev2 is vastly superior to scorev1 for both tournaments and singleplayer. Consistency is not only maintaining combo. I consider a player who can SS everything and get a shitmiss in the middle of the map more consistent than someone who just full combos with very low acc, and scorev2 rewards that much more than scorev1. It's just way more logical. Scorev2 can also create more hype for tournaments as there's always the chance for a comeback unlike combo-based scoring, especially for 1v1 (which IMO makes more sense than team-based tournaments).

And no, scorev2 doesn't overrate accuracy in my opinion. Low acc does not only come from being bad at acc. Barely aiming, running out of stamina, misreading etc can all lower your accuracy.
Nerova Riuz GX
1,413 posts
Joined April 2012
Nerova Riuz GX
I might not be against any of the changes except those which are about sliders.

The current slider settings make the maps nowadays varied, so if any of the changes is about to make it more strict, I'll definitely disagree. (loosen it is dumb af too but I know you won't do that.)

should better check the forum page here and I think it's definitely worth to be discussed as well: t/427264
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I would rather use pp over scorev2. On the same map, pp can distinguish the value of scores well.

As someone who has played watched my team play in many tournaments, I can say that seeing scorev2 in a tournament made most of us roll our eyes. It just seems like random points pulled out of thin air. For spectators it may seem more intense because the scores are generally much closer throughout the match, in reality you could attain the same thing by dividing scorev1 by 10. The added appeal of scorev2 to spectators is the "hype" when two teams are closely tied. The issue with scorev2 is that the scores aren't really close, it's just a clusterfuck of confusion over who will win because it doesn't make any sense half the time. It's just misleading to spectators and annoying.

Much prefer scores v1 over score v2. You should consider using pp based scoring and see how that looks.
Last edited by jesse1412 , edited 1 time in total.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
^ The thing is, I'm pretty sure that PP functions more like a post-play calculation, so I don't know how well something like that would fare in a real-time environment. If anyone found a way to implement a score system that used it while still keeping scores cumulative (as in, misses count as 0 rather than causing players to lose points), I could see something like that working out.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
The difference is that pp only looks at your highest combo while in score v2 you will still receive some score for additional lower combos.
I think it would look like bullshit if players would suddenly stop getting points because they have to get back to their highest combo to have the multiplier roll out again.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet
To use the pp formula for score:
1) During play, use the pp formula assuming everything not played yet is a Miss.
2) Modify the formula so the values go up more linearly during play (or another kind of growth that is easier to follow during play).

The pp formula is (with ScoreV2 Slider mechanics):
Length = Amount of notes in the map.
Acc% = Accuracy percentage, range: [0,1]. (6 * Count300 + 2 * Count100 + Count50) / 6 / (Length)
AimBase = A map constant that depends on the Aim Difficulty, Length, AR, OD, Visual Mods.
SpeedBase = A map constant that depends on the Speed Difficulty, Length, OD.

ODBase = A map constant that depends on OD.
AccBase = A map constant that depends on Length and Visual Mods (not OD)

MaxComboRatio = The maximum combo achieved divided by the maximum combo possible on the map.

pp = Constant * (AimValue^1.1 + SpeedValue^1.1 + AccValue^1.1)^(1/1.1)

AimValue = AimBase * 0.97^CountMiss * MaxComboRatio^0.8 * (0.5 + Acc% / 2)
SpeedValue = SpeedBase * 0.97^CountMiss * MaxComboRatio^0.8 * (0.5 + Acc% / 2)
AccValue = AccBase * ODBase^(Acc%^24)


If all Values (Aim, Speed and Acc) have roughly the same magnitude (they should with end-of-play values), and each one increases linearly during play, then score increases linearly during play. So we have to modify each of the Value formulas in a way they have the same magnitude at the end of play, and scale linearly during play.

ProgressRatio = Amount of played notes divided by the total amount of notes.


Note: While using those formulas, assume every note not played is a miss, for example: CountMiss = Number of missed notes so far plus number of notes remaining. MaxComboRatio = Longest combo so far divided by Length. The values increase linearly as long as the performance through the map is consistent.

FAimValue = AimBase * ProgressRatio^(1/5) * 0.97^( (CountMiss + Length * (ProgressRatio - 1) ) / ProgressRatio) * MaxComboRatio^0.8 * ( 0.5 + Acc% / (2 * ProgressRatio) )

FSpeedValue has the same form as FAimValue.

FAccValue = AccBase * ProgressRatio * ODBase^( (Acc% / ProgressRatio)^24 )

Then, the Constant of the pp formula can be raised so the values shown on score are higher.
Franc[e]sco
189 posts
Joined August 2009
Franc[e]sco
sure, pp scoring is fine too and it's also pretty trivial to implement as Full Tablet pointed out. ScoreV2's slider acc would also nicely punish people who are sloppy on slider maps.
ncuh
185 posts
Joined July 2013
ncuh
Only thing I'm against is slider accuracy
Franc[e]sco
189 posts
Joined August 2009
Franc[e]sco
oh, as for the slider changes, I think they're great! with the current system a lot of accuracy is wasted on slider heavy maps and it's a real shame. players are less sloppy than you might think on sliders. it pains me to see bad unstable rate scores getting the same acc % as actually accurate plays. it will also prevent the development of bad slider habits in new players.
JTF195
6 posts
Joined September 2014
JTF195

Franc[e]sco wrote:

it will also prevent the development of bad slider habits in new players.

Pretty much this. Sliders should never have ignored accuracy to begin with, IMO. It just promotes bad habits.
ConsumerOfBean
443 posts
Joined April 2015
ConsumerOfBean
The only problem with slider acc to me is that, right now, they are great for BPM changes as you do not have to be nearly as close, which would feel awkward and ruin acc if sliders had accuracy. Imo, the best way to handle this is make sliders 1.5x or even 2x as lenient as circles so things such as BPM changes would still require acc without being unfair.
Also, if you add slider acc, rip all maps with variable timing


Edit: Another solution would, as stated before (I don't remember who said it tho :P), make slider acc a diff-increasing mod. That way, if there are variable timing maps, you aren't forced into extremely difficult acc due to timing changes.
TrickMirror
44 posts
Joined November 2012
TrickMirror
I'm really fond of slider accuracy, but the score out of 1 million to me is a huge problem for ScoreV2.

On an average map, it can work, but very drastic changes happen to the scores of the players when you get into longer maps such as the marathons typically used in a tiebreaker. Due to the length of the map, it becomes significantly more difficult for players to hold combo, and as seen even in the tiebreaker of the grand final of OWC last year, if the map is also difficult, accuracy ends up being far more important towards your end score than combo a majority of the time. This is even with the current score ratio of 7:3 combo:accuracy.

I guess having max combo score scale in some way with then length of a map would help? Maybe linearly though, so it doesn't throw off the balance too in favour of combo once again.
Tynamo
15 posts
Joined March 2016
Tynamo
Looking nice! But what about the multiplier on difficult reduction mods such as EZ?
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
^
They discussed about it here. p/5570799
My Angel Raphi
114 posts
Joined July 2015
My Angel Raphi
This isn't really a huge problem but I'm going to complain anyway XD

If only 500 points are awarded per tick in a spinner, I don't think I'll feel as satisfied when I do spinners lol.

But I really would love more accuracy contributing to the score over combo because its a rhythm game! Osu is virtually the same as playing a musical instrument; what's the point of playing a piano or a guitar in a consistent rhythm, but playing the wrong notes? And its a real pain to try and beat low-accuracy but high combo scores.

I'm looking forward to score v2. Good luck with it!
Last edited by My Angel Raphi , edited 1 time in total.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
Just popping in here to inform everyone that ScoreV2 is now available as an unranked(?) mod on cuttingedge. Might be worth giving a try.
Arnold0
1,675 posts
Joined February 2012
Arnold0
Is there anything somewhere realy explaining how Score v2 works ? I've noticed when trying on Cutting Edge that my score was actualy decreasing when I was doing 100's which feels very unnatural. Score v2 plays seams to be failing to be submitted too but score v2 isn't considered as UNRANKED by the game client.

Slider accuracy is another topic as well, I just know I'll probably lose more than 1% of accuracy once score v2 is the only thing used because of it. Changing a very big game mechanic when the game is almost 10Yo with some players that are active since many years and used to how it works is a bit wierd.
quaternary
320 posts
Joined February 2013
quaternary
I'm really enjoying the new slider accuracy judgement, it really keeps you on your toes more than the old system. It hits the hardest on wubwub maps like Bassdrop Freaks because now you actually have to pay attention to the slider patterns instead of zxzxzxzing your way through.

But I'm not sure if there's any replacement hitobject for mappers that want to hide a tempo change, other than being able to configure the OD through timing sections I take that back - just played Roze in Scorev2 and trying to account for all the changes in the tempo was actually really fun. Got 10 100s and scored a 606,074

I'm not sure I like how spinners are scored. Spinners add to the maximum score of 1,000,000 points, which means that the 1 million figure is kind of arbitrary. On maps without spinners an SS gets 1 million points, but on maps with lots of spinners you can score more than 1,000,000 points even if you didn't SS, so the 1 million figure loses its meaning.

But I can't think of a better way to score spinners other than making them not count at all, which is dumb. Maybe the difficulty to clear a spinner could be MASSIVELY increased so that it's actually really hard to spin a 300, and then remove spinnerbonus? Although that's an even worse solution. Idk.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

quaternary wrote:

But I can't think of a better way to score spinners other than making them not count at all, which is dumb. Maybe the difficulty to clear a spinner could be MASSIVELY increased so that it's actually really hard to spin a 300, and then remove spinnerbonus? Although that's an even worse solution. Idk.
The only thing I could think of would be to count the spinner bonuses toward the 1mil cap (as spinners are capped at 477rpm) and adjust the other values accordingly, but that'd probably make it even more arbitrary, as it'd make it impossible to get 1mil without a spinbot.
den0saur
216 posts
Joined December 2014
den0saur
What will happen to fallback? Is it going to be implemented to fallback at least at any point in the future?
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