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posted
Hey all,

This might be a little bit too early (a whole 9 months), but here's goes nothing!

I've had a few people interested in discussing osu!catch ScoreV2 so I'm opening up a thread to collect the community's feedback. I'm interested in hearing your opinions about what you like/dislike about the current system and what you want out of the system so we can get it perfected before the next CWC.

THIS IS NOT FINAL
Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.

Here are a few facts/talking points about the current osu!catch ScoreV2 system:
  1. >90% of the score comes from combo, the <10% comes from tiny slider ticks.
  2. The percentage worth of tiny slider ticks is scaled by the ratio of tiny ticks to all other objects in the map.
  3. Bananas are worth a flat 350 points each.
  4. The mod multipliers are as follows: HR - 1.12x, DT - 1.06x, FL - 1.12x, HD - 1.06x


Basically, I'm willing to experiment trying different stuff so throw out any ideas you have. I'll be checking this thread periodically but don't expect me to reply to every comment or release any updates any time soon in an effort to not impact existing ongoing tournaments - however I'll try and get some sort of way to test it working.
And please _please_ don't spam me with PMs telling me to read a comment in here ;___;.
posted
I'm a very silly person.
posted
Your ScoreV2 multipliers are for osu!std. osu!catch are as I listed.
posted

Riari wrote:

I'm a very silly person.
same tbh
posted
What do people think about scaling banana values similar to small droplet values?

Inside osu!catch spinning is not a mandatory action, the score is a bonus on top of what you get for playing the rest of the map.
Currently in ScoreV2, droplets scale up to 10% of a maps value and would naturally diminish their value in longer maps. Bananas on the other hand have a constant score value of 350 giving them a significant edge in the longer run.

I think that whilst high-end spinner plays are impressive, droplets are a core part of osu!catch scoring and should not be so heavily reduced in comparison to bananas.
I think that a score cap that is similar to what small droplets face right now for bananas would be helpful for competitive scores as it would allow accuracy to make a bigger impact on maps that contain spinners.



I also saw something over in the standard discussion thread where score could possibly be multiplied by your accuracy. I think this would work much better over here and give misses and droplets a much more competitive edge.
posted
Too lazy for a full post but just for the mods multiplier.
HD and DT shouldn't be a fixed multiplier
- HD become easier with high AR and actually a bunch of people can't even play high ar without hd (or even on all cwc maps aka ar8+). Just look for that the rules of the last cwc where people were allowed to pick hd on their dt/hr picks.
- DT is a pain on ar9+ and shouldn't be lower than hr in those cases.
posted

Krah wrote:

Too lazy for a full post but just for the mods multiplier.
HD and DT shouldn't be a fixed multiplier
- HD become easier with high AR and actually a bunch of people can't even play high ar without hd (or even on all cwc maps aka ar8+). Just look for that the rules of the last cwc where people were allowed to pick hd on their dt/hr picks.
- DT is a pain on ar9+ and shouldn't be lower than hr in those cases.
I think that HD is a crutch mod. The majority of people who play with the mod play with it as a requirement to play the game and are heavily rewarded for it because of the 1.06x multiplier. I personally like the way that visualization mods are treated in mania where they receive no multiplier. However, I think that Flashlight as a visualization mod is not a crutch and should be rewarded correctly.

DT and HR are polar opposites in terms of difficulty in their level. At lower levels, HR is the harder mod whilst DT is easier. As the difficulty ramps up, DT becomes the harder mod (AR has a influence on this, mainly due to the mapping meta of ~AR9) and HR is comparatively easier. Between the two I would rate DT higher personally as towards the higher end of play the scores become slightly more warped and see more interest from the community, though I do like the idea of a scaling multiplier as it would make things more accurate.
posted
later on in this thread i'm going to get together with some top players and make a giant wall of information and how things should be, may take some time tho, I'll write up a giant paper when i get around to it.


DT SHOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN HR

I can say this without even needing to consult any player.
posted

Krah wrote:

Too lazy for a full post but just for the mods multiplier.
HD and DT shouldn't be a fixed multiplier
- HD become easier with high AR and actually a bunch of people can't even play high ar without hd (or even on all cwc maps aka ar8+). Just look for that the rules of the last cwc where people were allowed to pick hd on their dt/hr picks.
- DT is a pain on ar9+ and shouldn't be lower than hr in those cases.

Fantasy wrote:

DT SHOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN HR
Totally agree, specially the last one, unfortunately in ar 5 and less DT is so much easier than HR, so is hard to say which multipier would be fine
Imo both sjould be +0.12, i mean i dont think HD HR deserves the same as DT HR D:

Btw FL should be +0.16 /run
posted
I also agree that DT should give more score than HR, mainly since I believe that scoring should reflect PP, where in most cases DT gives more PP than HR

But I don't think a simple switch is enough, here is what I personally think the mod multipliers should be:

HD 1.04
HR 1.08
DT 1.12
FL 1.12

Now I'm not sure what should be done on maps where the star rating is increased more by HR than DT, maybe there can be an exception and it can be switched on maps where this happens?

As for slider ticks, I think they should be worth a little more, since we currently have scores on the leaderboard that are beating SS's with C's (using the same mod combinations) because of better spins

Edit: I see we are not supposed to talk about star ratings and PP but I feel like it's hard to make my point without at least mentioning why I think it should be this way...
posted

Fantasy wrote:

DT SHOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN HR
Totally agree, not because of the score but the PP system either. The HR trains AR and low CS while DT will train AR and reflection. This is even better than other mods, for hidden im keep that in silence. Fantasy, Amlink, where are you guys?!

P.S. Hidden is OVERFLOWING the CtB system
P.S.S. Im not talking about the PP system here
posted
DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
posted

PakaChan wrote:

DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
FLHD>DT in your case as I think the multi-mod thing would still apply so FLHD would be 1.41x or whatever it is?

I may be confused but I'm sure that's a thing.
posted

Riari wrote:

PakaChan wrote:

DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
FLHD>DT in your case as I think the multi-mod thing would still apply so FLHD would be 1.41x or whatever it is?

I may be confused but I'm sure that's a thing.
1.1x1.03 = 1.133 < 1.14
posted

PakaChan wrote:

Riari wrote:

FLHD>DT in your case as I think the multi-mod thing would still apply so FLHD would be 1.41x or whatever it is?

I may be confused but I'm sure that's a thing.
1.1x1.03 = 1.133 < 1.14
Mods are additive not multiplicative?
posted

Riari wrote:

Mods are additive not multiplicative?
Note that when multiple mods are applied, the product of the score multipliers is given instead of the sum of them.
- https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Game_Modifiers

The numbers themselves shouldn't matter much, it's how much mods and mod combinations give compared to each other that matters.
Saying "DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD" is more usefull than giving some numbers imo.
posted

PakaChan wrote:

Riari wrote:

Mods are additive not multiplicative?
Note that when multiple mods are applied, the product of the score multipliers is given instead of the sum of them.
- https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Game_Modifiers

The numbers themselves shouldn't matter much, it's how much mods and mod combinations give compared to each other that matters.
Saying "DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD" is more usefull than giving some numbers imo.
Ah, I always took at as the game value and thought it was slightly higher because of double mods.
posted

Riari wrote:

What do people think about scaling banana values similar to small droplet values?

Inside osu!catch spinning is not a mandatory action, the score is a bonus on top of what you get for playing the rest of the map.
Currently in ScoreV2, droplets scale up to 10% of a maps value and would naturally diminish their value in longer maps. Bananas on the other hand have a constant score value of 350 giving them a significant edge in the longer run.

I think that whilst high-end spinner plays are impressive, droplets are a core part of osu!catch scoring and should not be so heavily reduced in comparison to bananas.
I think that a score cap that is similar to what small droplets face right now for bananas would be helpful for competitive scores as it would allow accuracy to make a bigger impact on maps that contain spinners.



I also saw something over in the standard discussion thread where score could possibly be multiplied by your accuracy. I think this would work much better over here and give misses and droplets a much more competitive edge.
You could also consider giving droplets a static score like how it's now except make it so it actually matters when compared to that of a banana. Right now 1 banana = 110 droplets, you could always just change things up to make it 1 droplet = 1 banana or 1 droplet = 3 bananas or 3 droplets = 2 bananas. Giving both a multiplier sounds messy and giving just one a multiplier makes it so we have 98% FC > SS on the leaderboard or +1 droplet, -20 bananas giving more score.
posted

PakaChan wrote:

Riari wrote:

What do people think about scaling banana values similar to small droplet values?

Inside osu!catch spinning is not a mandatory action, the score is a bonus on top of what you get for playing the rest of the map.
Currently in ScoreV2, droplets scale up to 10% of a maps value and would naturally diminish their value in longer maps. Bananas on the other hand have a constant score value of 350 giving them a significant edge in the longer run.

I think that whilst high-end spinner plays are impressive, droplets are a core part of osu!catch scoring and should not be so heavily reduced in comparison to bananas.
I think that a score cap that is similar to what small droplets face right now for bananas would be helpful for competitive scores as it would allow accuracy to make a bigger impact on maps that contain spinners.



I also saw something over in the standard discussion thread where score could possibly be multiplied by your accuracy. I think this would work much better over here and give misses and droplets a much more competitive edge.
You could also consider giving droplets a static score like how it's now except make it so it actually matters when compared to that of a banana. Right now 1 banana = 110 droplets, you could always just change things up to make it 1 droplet = 1 banana or 1 droplet = 3 bananas or 3 droplets = 2 bananas. Giving both a multiplier sounds messy and giving just one a multiplier makes it so we have 98% FC > SS on the leaderboard or +1 droplet, -20 bananas giving more score.
All modes seem to be going towards a capped score of 1,000,000 (Spinners as bonus) hence why the droplets can make up to 10% of that million and no more. It's more about limiting the values of bananas so they do not outstrip acc and make high acc slightly lower spins competitive with lower acc slightly higher spins.
posted
DT 1.12 FL 1.12 HR 1.06 HD 1.06 simple as that
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