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posted

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
It's really quite simple. I'm the most important player when it comes to playing my map. And this is honestly how I would say any good artist should be working, no matter what kind of art he is making. If people don't work this way, you get pop music. That's my theory anyway.

And if people can't figure out my map, so what. It's their problem. And even if people don't understand my map, I have still gotten useful feedback, three out of four mods so far has resulted in direct changes to the map (still not counting mazzivs mod). And as it turns out, there are apparently people that like my map: so far I have two favourites on it. It's not much, but if we follow your logic, that it's only public opinion that matters, that's better than your Utopiosphere map, because even though my map has less than 1/4 of the views your map has, it has 2 favourites compared to your map's 4 (one of the favuorites being mine, because honestly it's a great map).

At the end of the day, the only conclusion that can be reached, is that mapping is objective. I know this is not really very conclusive, but really that's the reality of it. I make the maps that I like. I then hope that other people will enjoy the maps as much as I do, however that's not my main priority. Beatmapping can be a beautiful art form, that can lead to a interactive musical experience I haven't had anywhere else. And it's expressing myself through my maps I enjoy doing. And if I make something I'm really happy with of course I want to share it with the world.

Edit: And when it comes to explaining my idea with this map, I can probably do it in one word: progression.
posted

jawns wrote:

I might not have been clear about this, but when I map, I want to make a map that I consider good. What other people think about the map, is second priority by a huge margin.
If your second priority is the opinion from people,why do you request mods?
Like if YOU consider a map you made good,doesnt mean it actually is good at all. (until you have alot of mapping experience)
Modding is there to get someone elses opinion and by saying ''mapping is objective'' you make it sound like you dont care anyway and just dont accept stuff that doesnt fit in your ''intention with my map'' idea.
Sure,everyone sees stuff differently but if the map lacks in quality(and it does in my opinion) and you have gotten like 3 mods yet,you should think about the stuff thats been pointed out and WHY the modders pointing it out.
As you can see,N0thingSpecial pointed stuff out simular stuff as me,so there-may-be-something-wrong-with-it.
Im not saying that you dont have to accept every suggestions you get,but according to your profile you have little mapping expierence,which is totally fine,but if more than 1 person is pointing something out really should consider the suggestion.
Im used to a mid to high quality level in terms of modding,and imo this map is not even close to those levels.
So i dont know what you expect. In my opinion this map looks like a total mess and my opinion wont change,no matter what reason you bring up to defend your map.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
apparently jawns is from 2020 and brings the future mapping. ;)
posted
Firstly, subjective is the word you're looking for, otherwise mapping would all look the same.

Secondly, subjectivity is not the conclusion, it is just the start, tbh nearly everything is subjective aside from stuff like circle size , approach rate, if everything is subjective, that means everything is up to interpretation, which imply there's no conclusive opinion can be form on any map and the word subjectivity would lose meaning itself, and you can theoretically indulge in your own interpretation as long as you want. Realistically it doesn't work that way, subjectivity would still need to face real life implications in order to be useful. the real life implication of mapping is the modding process, it is to ensure that your interpretation can be solidify by a relatively objective perspective, to make sure your map has good flow, pattern, aesthetics, spacing, emphasis, polarity, consistency , timing and a fuck ton of other guidelines we came up with, ultimately to ensure quality under the context of your interpretation. So if you put your map in the modding process you should recognise the coexistence of subjectivity and objectivity. Basically my point is if your interpretation is getting in the way of the quality of the map i think you should just be mapping for grave, people can still like your map but it is definitely not for rank. This is the same thing as "there's no rigt or wrong" but in a realistic modern society we still heavily protect our belief in the legal system.
posted
00:00:774 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - nice map
posted
>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
posted

09simp wrote:

00:00:774 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - remap MiniK
this guy knows
posted

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
I feel like people don't understand, I really enjoy my map. And I'm not going to change things, just so other people will enjoy it more.

But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate feedback. My mapping is not perfect, and people are very welcome to give advice on how I can make my map more enjoyable. But that doesn't mean I have to follow that advice, if I think it will make my map less enjoyable. And as I pointed out, so far 3/4 mods have resulted in changes in the map.

And I'm well aware I know fuck all about mapping. But I know what I like...
posted

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu
posted

jawns wrote:

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
I feel like people don't understand, I really enjoy my map. And I'm not going to change things, just so other people will enjoy it more.

But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate feedback. My mapping is not perfect, and people are very welcome to give advice on how I can make my map more enjoyable. But that doesn't mean I have to follow that advice, if I think it will make my map less enjoyable. And as I pointed out, so far 3/4 mods have resulted in changes in the map.

And I'm well aware I know fuck all about mapping. But I know what I like...
>maps for own satisfaction
>other peoples suggestions are irrelevant
>asks for mods to improve map
>says "your suggestions are useless"
>expects it to get better

everything you say contradicts itself lo



maybe something doesn't add up :?:
posted
> Normal
> 4.59*

Uhmm

Anyways, is there a need to ask for mods, if you are gonna deny every single suggestion? That's only a waste of time for the modder, and it'll make them feel useless. Please be less stubborn, and actually consider some things. Fort used to have the same issue, that he was insanely stubborn, but he did have lots of mapping experience. It's alright to not accept suggestion, if you have proper reasoning, but the fact that a rather newbie mapper rejects points from rather experienced modders really blows my mind

FYI, I haven't checked the map, so I don't know in what sense everyone is right
posted

brdzxh wrote:

>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
This guy knows
posted

brdzxh wrote:

>maps for own satisfaction
>other peoples suggestions are irrelevent
>asks for mods to improve map
>says "your suggestions are useless"
>expects it to get better

everything you say contradicts itself lo



maybe something doesnt add up :?:
wtf, where did you get that from? Did I ever say suggestions are irrelevant/useless? I appreciate feedback, and criticism, though I don't always agree with it. I just don't see why I should as a default agree with every suggestion thrown my way. But as I said, 3 mods have already resulted in the map being changed. Only slightly, but it's still changes.
There's really only two problems I've had with mods so far. Only two kinds of mods, where I would say the suggestions are "irrelevant". The first one is when people don't explain why something I mapped doesn't work. Or more importantly, why their suggestion works better.
The other problem is the people (or person) who literally says "remap everything". You would never hear anybody say that to any other kind of artist would you? If a musician asked you for criticism, and you reply "you need to change all the notes". A lot of heart, soul and effort went into that map, I'm not just going to change everything. Small changes I can get behind (sometimes), stuff that doesn't completely change the way the map is made, but if you ask me to make major changes, I feel like you are just disrespecting the whole concept of the map.
Now, just because your advice doesn't fit into either of those categories doesn't mean I will automatically agree with it. At the end of the day, if I think the suggestion makes the map worse, I won't add it to the map.

But in short, this is roughly what the process of this map has been like:
>finish a map I'm really happy with
>post this map to the forums, ask for feedback
>to a lot of the feedback I think "that's a cool suggestion, but I honestly like it better as it is"
>to some feedback I think "yeah, that makes sense, I'm going to change that"
>the map is steadily improving, while the original concept/feel/qualities of the map remains

> Normal
> 4.59*

Uhmm

Anyways, is there a need to ask for mods, if you are gonna deny every single suggestion? That's only a waste of time for the modder, and it'll make them feel useless. Please be less stubborn, and actually consider some things. Fort used to have the same issue, that he was insanely stubborn, but he did have lots of mapping experience. It's alright to not accept suggestion, if you have proper reasoning, but the fact that a rather newbie mapper rejects points from rather experienced modders really blows my mind

FYI, I haven't checked the map, so I don't know in what sense everyone is right
First of all, don't pay too much attention to the name, it's just kind of there as a placeholder/joke...

Second of all, I don't automatically deny every single suggestion, far from it (unless it's stupid stuff like "remap everything". I think about every piece of feedback I receive, but as I said, that doesn't mean I will ultimately agree with them. I have a reason to place every single note where it's placed, and thus I have a reason to deny every suggestion I have denied, especially if you didn't provide a reason for me to follow your suggestion in the first place.

And I do realize that modders can be discouraged because of the fact that I deny a lot of suggestions. And for that I am sorry, but nobody is obligated to mod my map, and I won't be upset if people decide not to. But I still appreciate feedback, and I am thankful for every suggestion that I get, especially if it results in a change however small it may be. And if I ever get a mod from someone who understands exactly what I am trying to do, and how to do it better, I will probably end up agreeing with almost every point he makes. Sadly though, this hasn't happened yet...

And when it comes to not following the advice of more experience mappers, I have a few reasons. First of all, I feel like even the most experienced person can be wrong, especially when it comes to something as subjective as art.
But probably more importantly, I think my map is better. I'm not saying my map has "higher quality" of that it's what "the community would consider a good map", all I'm saying is that I enjoy playing my maps more than I enjoy playing their maps. And honestly, I think my maps are more fun than most ranked maps as well...
posted

jawns wrote:

brdzxh wrote:

>maps for own satisfaction
>other peoples suggestions are irrelevent
>asks for mods to improve map
>says "your suggestions are useless"
>expects it to get better

everything you say contradicts itself lo



maybe something doesnt add up :?:
wtf, where did you get that from? Did I ever say suggestions are irrelevant/useless? I appreciate feedback, and criticism, though I don't always agree with it. I just don't see why I should as a default agree with every suggestion thrown my way. But as I said, 3 mods have already resulted in the map being changed. Only slightly, but it's still changes.
There's really only two problems I've had with mods so far. Only two kinds of mods, where I would say the suggestions are "irrelevant". The first one is when people don't explain why something I mapped doesn't work. Or more importantly, why their suggestion works better.
The other problem is the people (or person) who literally says "remap everything". You would never hear anybody say that to any other kind of artist would you? If a musician asked you for criticism, and you reply "you need to change all the notes". A lot of heart, soul and effort went into that map, I'm not just going to change everything. Small changes I can get behind (sometimes), stuff that doesn't completely change the way the map is made, but if you ask me to make major changes, I feel like you are just disrespecting the whole concept of the map.
Now, just because your advice doesn't fit into either of those categories doesn't mean I will automatically agree with it. At the end of the day, if I think the suggestion makes the map worse, I won't add it to the map.

But in short, this is roughly what the process of this map has been like:
>finish a map I'm really happy with
>post this map to the forums, ask for feedback
>to a lot of the feedback I think "that's a cool suggestion, but I honestly like it better as it is"
>to some feedback I think "yeah, that makes sense, I'm going to change that"
>the map is steadily improving, while the original concept/feel/qualities of the map remains

> Normal
> 4.59*

Uhmm

Anyways, is there a need to ask for mods, if you are gonna deny every single suggestion? That's only a waste of time for the modder, and it'll make them feel useless. Please be less stubborn, and actually consider some things. Fort used to have the same issue, that he was insanely stubborn, but he did have lots of mapping experience. It's alright to not accept suggestion, if you have proper reasoning, but the fact that a rather newbie mapper rejects points from rather experienced modders really blows my mind

FYI, I haven't checked the map, so I don't know in what sense everyone is right
First of all, don't pay too much attention to the name, it's just kind of there as a placeholder/joke...

Second of all, I don't automatically deny every single suggestion, far from it (unless it's stupid stuff like "remap everything". I think about every piece of feedback I receive, but as I said, that doesn't mean I will ultimately agree with them. I have a reason to place every single note where it's placed, and thus I have a reason to deny every suggestion I have denied, especially if you didn't provide a reason for me to follow your suggestion in the first place.

And I do realize that modders can be discouraged because of the fact that I deny a lot of suggestions. And for that I am sorry, but nobody is obligated to mod my map, and I won't be upset if people decide not to. But I still appreciate feedback, and I am thankful for every suggestion that I get, especially if it results in a change however small it may be. And if I ever get a mod from someone who understands exactly what I am trying to do, and how to do it better, I will probably end up agreeing with almost every point he makes. Sadly though, this hasn't happened yet...

And when it comes to not following the advice of more experience mappers, I have a few reasons. First of all, I feel like even the most experienced person can be wrong, especially when it comes to something as subjective as art.
But probably more importantly, I think my map is better. I'm not saying my map has "higher quality" of that it's what "the community would consider a good map", all I'm saying is that I enjoy playing my maps more than I enjoy playing their maps. And honestly, I think my maps are more fun than most ranked maps as well...
lol
posted
just stop it guys,its no use lol
posted

Mazziv wrote:

just stop it guys,its no use lol
i cannot agree more with this, mapper's mindset is also important =w=

in a future note: dont ask mods if your maps are in your opinion good enough, denying everything just makes u look like a complete douchebag
posted

jawns wrote:

. And if I ever get a mod from someone who understands exactly what I am trying to do, and how to do it better, I will probably end up agreeing with almost every point he makes. Sadly though, this hasn't happened yet...
Considering the idea you had was represented in a very vague and unorganised manner I wouldn't be surprised if someone doesn't understand
posted
tfw BN's visit such threads while so many people with decent maps can't find one..
posted

MaridiuS wrote:

tfw BN's visit such threads while so many people with decent maps can't find one..
It's not like he spend a ton of time on my map, he didn't even check the map...
posted
thread looked fun
posted
This modding thread has been migrated to the new "modding discussions" system. Please make sure to re-post any existing (and unresolved) efforts to the new system as required.
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