Ghost - Infestissumam

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Total Posts
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Topic Starter
jawns
This beatmap was submitted using in-game submission on 11 August 2016 at 21:20:04

Artist: Ghost
Title: Infestissumam
Tags: Metal Heavy Rock Choir GhostBC
BPM: 127.99
Filesize: 2828kb
Play Time: 01:42
Difficulties Available:
  1. Normal (4.59 stars, 323 notes)


Download: Ghost - Infestissumam
Information: Scores/Beatmap Listing
---------------
This is the first song of the album "Infestissumam" by Ghost.

I plan on mapping the entire album in a single map, but I decided to upload every song individually as well for a couple of reasons:

First of all, I do it this way, so people can download only one or a few of the songs, and don't have to download the entre album/map if they don't want to.

Second of all, I do it this way, so every map can be critiqued/modded individually. It might be a lot to mod an entire album I would imagine, but by doing it this way, I think it becomes a bit easier for the modders to swallow. This way I can also get mods while mapping the rest of the album, which would be great if I decide to go for approval when it's all done.

Also, I want this map to be seen as an individual map, and not just something that's just a part of a bigger map; kinda similar to how you would see the songs on a regular album.

Btw, you can watch me mapping the album, as well as doing other things, on my twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/thejawns

Of course, any and all mods or other pieces of critique are welcome!

Jawns
Wishkey
Oh hell yeah someone mapping Ghost :D

General

You sure about your timing? Seems like you basicly get the same with these 2 timing points since now a few feel off

128 BPM offset 765, 4/4 signature
128 BPM offset 4046 3/4 signature

Check for: preview point/combo colors/tags like metal/rock/choir/...

Won't become relevant if your gonna do the timing change but 00:20:912 (1) - make sure at the end of the slider that the red and green timing points have the same volume




Normal

Hitsounding
  1. So no hitsounds yet? bit weird now to have custom hitsounds enabled but you have no custom hitsounds, would add some in your map (make sure theres a 1 after the file name if your gonna use custom hitsound1) otherwise just use the default setting in the timing section
  2. dunno if you already hitsounded it before but deleted it but here some general stuff just incase: for stuff like 00:24:210 (2,4) - etc could use a clap/drumclap to represent the snares for example
  3. 00:26:562 (1) -,00:34:979 (5) - etc snare+cymbals so might aswell put a clap/drumclap and a finish(if you gonna use a custom finish cymbal)



Intro
  1. 00:15:733 (3,4,1) - you could emphasize the downbeats during this section a bitmore imo because here is the tone shift like for example now the spacing between (3,4) is the same as (4,1) why not make (4,1) bigger here because it goes higher in tone and vice versa for sections if it goes lower in tone
  2. what do you think a bout soft sample set for the intro, since there really isnt a strong beat to follow yet other then the vocals and to represent the tone a bit more


Rest
  1. 00:34:510 (2) - NC, bit of lonely combo now and it show a bit that the next note will be more connected when its a (2) so a bit of an indicator that its gonna be a 1/4, like you did with 01:19:051 (3,4) -
  2. 00:34:862 (4,5) - since its still an insane diff, would just make it the same distance here or have 00:34:745 (3,4) - increase gradually a bit aswell so its in the middle of (1,2) and (5) since heres also the change in drums
  3. 00:42:971 (5) - control j (+control h if you want) for some better flow from 00:42:736 (4) - and into 00:43:440 (1) -
  4. 00:45:658 (2,1) - thats really hard to read currently and a bit tricky for a normal diff, could maybe change (1,2) into a 1/4 slider aswell for consistency with 00:34:276 (1) -
  5. 00:46:715 (3,1) - 00:48:114 (3,1) - yeah dude no one is gonna know these are 3/4 and not 1/2 with this kind of spacing being the exact same as all your 1/2s either reduce the spacing a bit or shorten the sliders to 1/2 (still a drum beat there so your choice)
  6. 00:57:965 (2,3,4,5) - 01:03:575 (2,3,4,5) -, etc these kind off patterns could be less random a bit, like more coherent for example why not make 00:57:965 (2,3) - the same ds as 00:58:431 (4,5) - so you have a bit of structure as a base while keeping the emphasizes on the strong beat with the jump being intact. I got this a lot while playing that the combos seem a bit random placed most of time, like only placed based on the sound aka your ds here for emphasizing but not taking in account the combo pattern and it surroundings like overlaps/visual distance between notes/placement of the next combo with considering the previous combo etc as a whole. But might be your style so, it just felt a bit random while playing to me
  7. 01:01:229 (4,5,1) - flows kinda bad with that sudden stop in that linear flow, would create a bit more of angle maybe something like this to rate (1)
  8. 01:12:487 (4,2) - might aswell stack these since theyre so close, will look a bit nicer
  9. 01:14:362 (1,3) - ^
  10. 01:17:639 (3,4) - rip combo again insane 1/4 jumps man
  11. 01:37:811 (1,2) - seem a bit random now placed in the rythm since there're only 2, since the vocals still continue after. could make 01:38:749 (3,4,5,6) - these sliders aswell
  12. 01:41:552 (7) - NC for the switch to 1/3


Hope it helped and GL with the map dude! osu needs more Ghost :D
Topic Starter
jawns

Wishkey wrote:

Oh hell yeah someone mapping Ghost :D

General

You sure about your timing? Seems like you basicly get the same with these 2 timing points since now a few feel off

128 BPM offset 765, 4/4 signature
128 BPM offset 4046 3/4 signature
When I timed the map, I thought the map wasn't quantized, so I started timing it as I would with a song that wasn't quantized. Only later did I realize, that it was in fact quantized, but since both ways of timing it gives roughly the same result, I see no reason to change what I have.

Check for: preview point/combo colors/tags like metal/rock/choir/... Fixed all that

Won't become relevant if your gonna do the timing change but 00:20:912 (1) - make sure at the end of the slider that the red and green timing points have the same volume Fixed that as well




Normal

Hitsounding
  1. So no hitsounds yet? bit weird now to have custom hitsounds enabled but you have no custom hitsounds, would add some in your map (make sure theres a 1 after the file name if your gonna use custom hitsound1) otherwise just use the default setting in the timing section
  2. dunno if you already hitsounded it before but deleted it but here some general stuff just incase: for stuff like 00:24:210 (2,4) - etc could use a clap/drumclap to represent the snares for example
  3. 00:26:562 (1) -,00:34:979 (5) - etc snare+cymbals so might aswell put a clap/drumclap and a finish(if you gonna use a custom finish cymbal)

Didn't add custom hitsounds, but did hitsound the entire map

Intro
  1. 00:15:733 (3,4,1) - you could emphasize the downbeats during this section a bitmore imo because here is the tone shift like for example now the spacing between (3,4) is the same as (4,1) why not make (4,1) bigger here because it goes higher in tone and vice versa for sections if it goes lower in tone
    Good point. Did that.
  2. what do you think a bout soft sample set for the intro, since there really isnt a strong beat to follow yet other then the vocals and to represent the tone a bit more

Did that when I hitsounded it

Rest
  1. 00:34:510 (2) - NC, bit of lonely combo now and it show a bit that the next note will be more connected when its a (2) so a bit of an indicator that its gonna be a 1/4, like you did with 01:19:051 (3,4) -
    Did it this way to emphazise the snare hit on the beginning of the stream. Added a nc on 00:34:979 (1) - though
  2. 00:34:862 (4,5) - since its still an insane diff, would just make it the same distance here or have 00:34:745 (3,4) - increase gradually a bit aswell so its in the middle of (1,2) and (5) since heres also the change in drums
    Fixed this I think? Not sure exactly what you meant
  3. 00:42:971 (5) - control j (+control h if you want) for some better flow from 00:42:736 (4) - and into 00:43:440 (1) -
    [I like the way it flows now better (it kinda works to separate the two combos)
  4. 00:45:658 (2,1) - thats really hard to read currently and a bit tricky for a normal diff, could maybe change (1,2) into a 1/4 slider aswell for consistency with 00:34:276 (1) -
    First of all, don't pay too much attention to the name "normal" it's just a generic name I choose for my difficulties, if I can't think of anything better. Second of all, this was made this way very deliberately, and it's one of the things that I don't think I'm going to change, no matter what. It's a bit tricky at first, but once you get the hang of it, I think it plays very well
  5. 00:46:715 (3,1) - 00:48:114 (3,1) - yeah dude no one is gonna know these are 3/4 and not 1/2 with this kind of spacing being the exact same as all your 1/2s either reduce the spacing a bit or shorten the sliders to 1/2 (still a drum beat there so your choice)
    Sure, I doubt anybody is going to combo through that on a sight read, but it follows the music well, and I don't mind sacrificing a bit of playability, if I think it follows the song better
  6. 00:57:965 (2,3,4,5) - 01:03:575 (2,3,4,5) -, etc these kind off patterns could be less random a bit, like more coherent for example why not make 00:57:965 (2,3) - the same ds as 00:58:431 (4,5) - so you have a bit of structure as a base while keeping the emphasizes on the strong beat with the jump being intact. I got this a lot while playing that the combos seem a bit random placed most of time, like only placed based on the sound aka your ds here for emphasizing but not taking in account the combo pattern and it surroundings like overlaps/visual distance between notes/placement of the next combo with considering the previous combo etc as a whole. But might be your style so, it just felt a bit random while playing to me
    I generally don't pay too much attention to the visuals of my maps. But the example you took out was actually very deliberate. By having 00:58:431 (4,5) - be a shorter ds, 00:58:897 (1,2,3) - becomes comparatively more intense, and it also separates the two patterns as well (like the slider before)
  7. 01:01:229 (4,5,1) - flows kinda bad with that sudden stop in that linear flow, would create a bit more of angle maybe something like this to rate (1)
    Did something like that
  8. 01:12:487 (4,2) - might aswell stack these since theyre so close, will look a bit nicer Yup
  9. 01:14:362 (1,3) - ^ Yup
  10. 01:17:639 (3,4) - rip combo again insane 1/4 jumps man Same explanation as before
  11. 01:37:811 (1,2) - seem a bit random now placed in the rythm since there're only 2, since the vocals still continue after. could make 01:38:749 (3,4,5,6) - these sliders aswell
    While I want to emphasize the vocals, I don't want to completely move away from following the guitar yet (I also think this transitions a bit better into the next bit
  12. 01:41:552 (7) - NC for the switch to 1/3

I feel like the 1/3 are definitely connected to the slider before. Added NC to the slider though

Hope it helped and GL with the map dude! osu needs more Ghost :D
Yeah, it was very helpful! Thanks a bunch, and if you feel like I didn't explain properly why I didn't agree with some of your points, feel free to ask!
Shunao
Hey~

This is your NM :)

I'm not good for modding Insane but I go tried

General

  1. Check the first warning in AiMod.
  2. There are too many jumps
  3. Increase a little the speed if you want to make one truth insane.
  4. If you increase the rhythm it will be better.

Normal

  1. 00:03:550 (6) - weird overlap.
  2. 00:07:975 (3) - overlap.
  3. 00:33:573 (6) - This circle is too far.
  4. 00:52:344 (2) - You can make this:

It's all that I can make lol. I hope that I helped you a little.
Good luck for the map! :)
Topic Starter
jawns
Yo, thanks for the mod!

ShogunMoon wrote:

Hey~

This is your NM :)

I'm not good for modding Insane but I go tried

General

  1. Check the first warning in AiMod. I've tried everything, but I just can't do anything about that... Dunno why...
  2. There are too many jumps I wanted to make it a very jumpy map, but I might have gone a bit overkill... Will see if other people point it out as well
  3. Increase a little the speed if you want to make one truth insane.
  4. If you increase the rhythm it will be better. Not sure what you mean here...

Normal

  1. 00:03:550 (6) - weird overlap. Not sure how how to make it less weird. I want it to overlap a little bit, since the slider represents two syllables of the same word
  2. 00:07:975 (3) - overlap. Not sure what you mean here...
  3. 00:33:573 (6) - This circle is too far. Moved it a little closer
  4. 00:52:344 (2) - You can make this: I like the way it plays atm. Will keep it in mind though

It's all that I can make lol. I hope that I helped you a little.
Good luck for the map! :)
I'm just happy to get any mods at this point, and it was definitely helpful!
Pinguino
This seems hard to mod not even going to try and verify the timing of things, someone should but way above my range.

The following sliders need more "warning" or something to hit at the speed you intend they feel to fast when playing without "expecting them"
00:03:550
00:05:410
00:08:208
00:15:265

Not sure on the spacing of the jumps feels to much but maybe is just me hating what 4* 120bpm jumps are

00:24:683 I'll still put this hit circle closer to the previous one even compared to the other ones it goes to far
00:28:901 ^

00:34:276 Yeah I don't like this at all way to hard to read, add it fully to the stream or make it closer to the 8 way to complicated
00:37:102 Or lower the tail of the previous slider or bump this a little bit higher
00:43:440 Should be higher the 2.5 spacing from the previous one looks fine, do that.
00:45:540 As with the previous part you did like this, way to hard to hit IMO and even if you want to show that they are different sounds it feels way to terrible to play and read
00:47:415 Make the jump closer to previous part
00:59:595 You know the drill by now
01:04:044 closer to previous part
01:04:514 This one I wouldn't be oppose to being further of the 5 that came before
01:06:627 I would move this slightly closer to the middle feels more smooth to play at least in mouse
01:10:850 Not sure why is this so close if you are going by that the vocals stop it should have slowed down earlier besides counting the next 4 that is also apart i don't get it
01:17:639 Find it way to slow and you putting the next HC at 1/4 and that far apart is nuts
01:19:051 Same as previous parts
01:21:394 bring this one closer slightly at least
01:27:716 Closer to the (3)
01:31:709 This part if my ears dont deceive me that they very well could as 01:19:999 and in this part you made the 3 much further from the 2 than in 01:31:709 I would even them out
01:41:552 - 1/3 are hard to acc not sure is correct to make people have to acc them, is most likely fine though just really punishing the player that's all


Overall as previously said I really find the jumps over the top I believe that not every map needs all diffs to be made and this is to "rabbit jumping" to be qualified could be very well wrong though so still wish you good luck!
Mazziv
hi! nm from my queue o/

[Normal]

what are you trying to emphasize by consistenly changing sv? its a mess!
00:02:624 (5) - could be better emphasized with a slider until 00:03:319 -
00:05:410 (4) - 1/1 slider please
00:06:343 (5) - single note
00:13:854 (4) - extend the slider until 00:14:559 -
the whole part where it goes wild has no structure,no patterns v: it looks super random

i recommend you re-mapping this but with a slight idea in your head. right now it looks super clunky and super random
v: if you remapped it with (patterns,consistant and reasonable spacing and all that stuff) u ask for a re-check if you want!
Topic Starter
jawns

Mazziv wrote:

hi! nm from my queue o/

[Normal]

what are you trying to emphasize by consistenly changing sv? its a mess! Every sv change is deliberate, and to emphasize something in the vocals. Feel free to ask for an explanation for any changes you don't think makes sense
00:02:624 (5) - could be better emphasized with a slider until 00:03:319 - Doing that would result in completely ignoring two syllables of the vocals. I could make two sliders, but I like the way it works with a repeat slider
00:05:410 (4) - 1/1 slider please I don't see the logic behind doing that
00:06:343 (5) - single note ^
00:13:854 (4) - extend the slider until 00:14:559 - ^ and I want the rhythm in the intro to be consistent, so I don't want to use a 3/4 slider only once
the whole part where it goes wild has no structure,no patterns v: it looks super random Ever single note (including spacing/slider shapes/slider velocities) is mapped to emphasize something in the song. Feel free to point out, if you feel like parts of my map fail to do so.

i recommend you re-mapping this but with a slight idea in your head. right now it looks super clunky and super random
v: if you remapped it with (patterns,consistant and reasonable spacing and all that stuff) u ask for a re-check if you want!
I'm sorry, but "remap everything" is not really very helpful advice. Also, stuff like " with a slight idea in your head" is frankly just condescending. Feel free to come back and make a proper mod, if you want kudosu.

Pinguino wrote:

This seems hard to mod not even going to try and verify the timing of things, someone should but way above my range.

The following sliders need more "warning" or something to hit at the speed you intend they feel to fast when playing without "expecting them"
00:03:550
00:05:410
00:08:208
00:15:265
Each of these sliders (as well as all the other sliders) are mapped to emphasize the vocals, and I don't want to change them unless absolutely necessary. Besides, I don't think the changes are too crazy, and if you have the song in mind, it should be quite intuitive

Not sure on the spacing of the jumps feels to much but maybe is just me hating what 4* 120bpm jumps are

00:24:683 I'll still put this hit circle closer to the previous one even compared to the other ones it goes to far I prefer the way it's spaced now, I really want to emphasize the snare, and I think mapping it this way also leads well into 00:25:156 (1,2,3) -
00:28:901 ^ Again, want to emphasize the snare (as well as the cymbal this time). This is also probably the most intense part of the "chorus" so I think it's justified (though you could argue that it's already beginning to calm down at this point)

00:34:276 Yeah I don't like this at all way to hard to read, add it fully to the stream or make it closer to the 8 way to complicated I know this is a bit awkward to play, but once you get the hang of it, I feel like it plays well, while showing the difference between the drum sounds.
00:37:102 Or lower the tail of the previous slider or bump this a little bit higher This is another intense part of the song, yet I force the player to hit a slider for a long time, to dwell on the vocals/lyrics. I feel like I need to have a jump afterwards, anything else will just end up being anticlimactic
00:43:440 Should be higher the 2.5 spacing from the previous one looks fine, do that. I kinda touched this in a previous mod response, but I made this jump to mark a definite ending of that part of the song, to focus on the next bit.
00:45:540 As with the previous part you did like this, way to hard to hit IMO and even if you want to show that they are different sounds it feels way to terrible to play and read Same reason as before, probably even MORE so in this case
00:47:415 Make the jump closer to previous part This serves a nice contrast to the circles following the guitar, and I don't want to mess too much with it
00:59:595 You know the drill by now Same response as previously ;-)
01:04:044 closer to previous part Again emphasizing the drums
01:04:514 This one I wouldn't be oppose to being further of the 5 that came before I deliberately mapped this closer (and made the slider very curved), to build anticipation for the straight slider at 01:05:452 (4) - (I might increase the jump to that slider).
01:06:627 I would move this slightly closer to the middle feels more smooth to play at least in mouse Playing mouse only, I don't feel like the difference is enough to justify not emphasizing the snare
01:10:850 Not sure why is this so close if you are going by that the vocals stop it should have slowed down earlier besides counting the next 4 that is also apart i don't get it It follows the bass
01:17:639 Find it way to slow and you putting the next HC at 1/4 and that far apart is nuts Funny you didn't mention this specifically, when I did basically the same thing previously ( 00:46:249 (1,2,3) - ) however, as I said previously, the slider (and the notes before) are following the guitar, and the next to notes are making a contrast, following the drums.
01:19:051 Same as previous parts Same response
01:21:394 bring this one closer slightly at least I REALLY wanna emphasize the change between the two guitar parts, and I feel like it's especially important to do so in the first one
01:27:716 Closer to the (3) Remapped that bit
01:31:709 This part if my ears dont deceive me that they very well could as 01:19:999 and in this part you made the 3 much further from the 2 than in 01:31:709 I would even them out Remapped that part as well
01:41:552 - 1/3 are hard to acc not sure is correct to make people have to acc them, is most likely fine though just really punishing the player that's all Yeah, I know it's difficult, but it fits the song, and it shouldn't be too hard if you have decent acc


Overall as previously said I really find the jumps over the top I believe that not every map needs all diffs to be made and this is to "rabbit jumping" to be qualified could be very well wrong though so still wish you good luck!

I feel like the star rating of the song is a bit misleading, this map is intended for people around my own skill-level (can fc 5 star maps) and higher (especially since the next songs are going to be even more difficult). I can't even fc this! But as I mentioned, every jump is justified, and I will happily change any jump that is not.
I'm sorry I disagreed with so many things, but while the jumps are justifiable, you didn't really give any reason why I should make changes (this will probably come with more modding experience). My advice will be this: if possible, try to always give a reason why people should make the changes you suggest. I would personally always prefer a mod that has a few changes, but the changes are well explained, than a mod with a lot of suggestions, without any explanations.

But thanks for the mod anyway! It definitely helped with a few things, and I'll keep the jumps in mind, if other people point them out as well!
Mazziv

jawns wrote:

Mazziv wrote:

hi! nm from my queue o/

[Normal]

what are you trying to emphasize by consistenly changing sv? its a mess! Every sv change is deliberate, and to emphasize something in the vocals. Feel free to ask for an explanation for any changes you don't think makes sense
00:02:624 (5) - could be better emphasized with a slider until 00:03:319 - Doing that would result in completely ignoring two syllables of the vocals. I could make two sliders, but I like the way it works with a repeat slider
00:05:410 (4) - 1/1 slider please I don't see the logic behind doing that
00:06:343 (5) - single note ^
00:13:854 (4) - extend the slider until 00:14:559 - ^ and I want the rhythm in the intro to be consistent, so I don't want to use a 3/4 slider only once
the whole part where it goes wild has no structure,no patterns v: it looks super random Ever single note (including spacing/slider shapes/slider velocities) is mapped to emphasize something in the song. Feel free to point out, if you feel like parts of my map fail to do so.

i recommend you re-mapping this but with a slight idea in your head. right now it looks super clunky and super random
v: if you remapped it with (patterns,consistant and reasonable spacing and all that stuff) u ask for a re-check if you want!
I'm sorry, but "remap everything" is not really very helpful advice. Also, stuff like " with a slight idea in your head" is frankly just condescending. Feel free to come back and make a proper mod, if you want kudosu.
ok
N0thingSpecial
Firstly, if you change SV you need to NC to hint that it's a different SV slider, easy concept, everyone is doing it, if BN ever come around and mod this they will tell you the same most likely.

While I'm on topic, having constant SV change is not wrong but the way you are spacing and placing your sliders doesn't suggest intuitive gameplay. NC could only help so much, the rest really lies on aesthetic consistency, you are really lacking in patterning, to group together ascending and descending intensity of the vocals, you're not making it easier for the for the players to recognize a pattern in the SV change, cause majority of the entire fukin human race likes to group shit together so it could be easier on their brains, not saying you randomly placed them, I see there was an effort, but it is no where obvious enough for the players to actually feel intuitive to play.

Ok you might here say "it fits the music imo I have a love hate relationship with this word" and "it's not for intuitive game play, it's for fun", then I have two things to say:
  1. well fukin 1/2 note spams throughout the entire song is also fitting to the song that I know enough, that's why there's so many shitty brain dead effortless jump maps in the first place, "it fits imo" of course it fukin fits. The question is what do these sliders bring to the map, it's accurate hell yea I agree but how is this different from having constant SV sliders? try messing around with the sliders with constant 0.8-0.9 SV, it will play exactly the same.
  2. Ok even if you say that it makes a difference, how is that difference recognizable? Where's the consistency in inconsistency?
    00:01:243 (2,3,4) - these 3 sound exactly the same and you put 3 different SV in it, there's no background music to support a scaling intensity, the "climax " is not even strong enough to deserves a scaling intensity
    00:04:014 (1,2,3) - these a practically lower pitch version of 00:01:243 (2,3,4) - but why the SV change patterning is different?
    00:12:443 (1,2,3) - same thing
    00:13:854 (4) - higher pitch higher SV right? right? oh nvm it's lower SV
    Like I'm trying hard to find a consistent reasoning behind your SV change, like how articulation, tonality and other stuff, stuff like 00:07:275 (2,3) - how you use constant SV for emphasis in articulation, but articulation wasn't a major role in the vocals so it wasn't enough to justify the randomness of the rest. THIS is what Massive meant by "it looks super clunky and super random"

Like I get you're trying to be creative and original but this is really lack luster and underwhelming, I could go longer onto how you could extend the idea of "basing SV on intensity" and apply it to your 1/2 note spam but you clearly haven't found an effective formula to actually apply it consistently throughout the map yet, thus the feeling of randomness, you're not taking the idea far enough.

I highly suggest you actually sit down and make a consistent looking map, cause here's an analogy: "to be sure that you're answering perfectly incorrect to a question, you must know the perfect answer for that question", to map something abnormal you must know how to map something normal in the first place. After that you can alter what's fundamental in normal map and alter it consistently in the map that's really how HW get away with bullshit SV change, it's consistent and obvious, both aesthetically and playing wise.

but one things for sure and yes it's an insult, but BNs/QATs wouldn't even touch your map if your slider art stays this way and I'm 99% sure about it. unless you made it consistently like how monstrata did with alien, but look how that map turned out and you can't pull it off cause you don't even know how to make good looking map in the eyes of the majority Yes I do realize I'm a fukin hypocrite for saying this.

I hope my trust in your stubbornness is good enough to not demotivate you from mapping

I probably don't even need to KDS I just want to see red text all over my rant
Topic Starter
jawns

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Firstly, if you change SV you need to NC to hint that it's a different SV slider, easy concept, everyone is doing it, if BN ever come around and mod this they will tell you the same most likely. I don't feel like that would make a lot of sense with this map in particular, because I would literally have to NC during the middle of a word. Second of all, NC is obviously mostly used to differentiate between different parts of the song/melody, but if I added NC to nearly every single slider it would completely loose that function

While I'm on topic, having constant SV change is not wrong but the way you are spacing and placing your sliders doesn't suggest intuitive gameplay. NC could only help so much, the rest really lies on aesthetic consistency, you are really lacking in patterning, to group together ascending and descending intensity of the vocals, you're not making it easier for the for the players to recognize a pattern in the SV change, cause majority of the entire fukin human race likes to group shit together so it could be easier on their brains, not saying you randomly placed them, I see there was an effort, but it is no where obvious enough for the players to actually feel intuitive to play. I'm very much aware that I could make it more intuitive for the first-time player of the map, but I would have to map it in a way that would fit the music less, or at least MY interpretation of the music. That's why it feels so intuitive to me, and I'm sure it would also feel intuitive to some people (at lest after a couple of tries so they know what is going on), but I am aware that no where near all people will find the map intuitive. To be honest, I don't really care.

Ok you might here say "it fits the music imo I have a love hate relationship with this word" and "it's not for intuitive game play, it's for fun", then I have two things to say:
  1. well fukin 1/2 note spams throughout the entire song is also fitting to the song that I know enough, that's why there's so many shitty brain dead effortless jump maps in the first place, "it fits imo" of course it fukin fits. The question is what do these sliders bring to the map, it's accurate hell yea I agree but how is this different from having constant SV sliders? try messing around with the sliders with constant 0.8-0.9 SV, it will play exactly the same. I'm honestly not quite sure what you are referring to here... "1/2 spams throughout the entire song" are you talking about this map? Jump maps in general? "What do these sliders bring to the map" what sliders? The ones in the intro, or the sliders in the rest of the song? I'm sorry, I might just be stupid, but I honestly don't know exactly what you are referring to...
  2. Ok even if you say that it makes a difference, how is that difference recognizable? Where's the consistency in inconsistency?
    00:01:243 (2,3,4) - these 3 sound exactly the same and you put 3 different SV in it, there's no background music to support a scaling intensity, the "climax " is not even strong enough to deserves a scaling intensity I'll be happy to explain my reasoning behind these: The first (and longest) slider of the three, comes on the first real beat of the song. It's also the "a big white tick" or however you wanna put it, so since it's such a strong beat, I want to emphasize it a lot. The next slider is much less significant, it's not on a strong beat and it's the second syllable of a word. The last slider is a new word, and I feel like it's generally a bit more significant than the previous beat, so it has a SV somewhere in between the two previous ones. At the same time, this slider kinda leads on towards the next slide, increasing the intensity a tiny bit, thought it's only just noticeable when playing.
    00:04:014 (1,2,3) - these a practically lower pitch version of 00:01:243 (2,3,4) - but why the SV change patterning is different? Because of the context. These sliders come after the melody jumps to notes that are significantly deeper than the previous, which is why I start of with a low SV, and just before a jump to significantly higher notes, which is why I increase the intensity.
    00:12:443 (1,2,3) - same thing This pretty much follows the same pattern as your previous point, but compared to the first point, these are the first notes after a long break. In the beginning of the first note, you can clearly hear, that the first syllable isn't very clear, and this in my opinion makes it sound weak, which is my reason for using a lower SV. Then I increase the SV to build up to the increase in pitch in the song.
    00:13:854 (4) - higher pitch higher SV right? right? oh nvm it's lower SV Only a few of the notes in the intro last for longer than one beat, this is one of the few that don't. I have consistently emphasized these notes with very low SV, to force the player to really linger on those notes.
    Like I'm trying hard to find a consistent reasoning behind your SV change, like how articulation, tonality and other stuff, stuff like 00:07:275 (2,3) - how you use constant SV for emphasis in articulation, but articulation wasn't a major role in the vocals so it wasn't enough to justify the randomness of the rest. THIS is what Massive meant by "it looks super clunky and super random" I get that it might look random, but as I said, everything is thought through and is justifiable, and I firmly believe that all this will result in a map that is intuitive to players that either A: knows the song well, or B: has played the map a few times and knows it well.

Like I get you're trying to be creative and original but this is really lack luster and underwhelming, I could go longer onto how you could extend the idea of "basing SV on intensity" and apply it to your 1/2 note spam but you clearly haven't found an effective formula to actually apply it consistently throughout the map yet, thus the feeling of randomness, you're not taking the idea far enough. I'm not trying to be anything. I'm trying to make the most enjoyable map I possibly can, and I think this is close to that. I have reasons to map the way I do, and I see no reason to use techniques that people might consider "basic mapping". Stuff like "aesthetic" and "good patterns" and even "consistency", I have not seen a proper reason why I should apply stuff like this to my maps, and frankly I don't think I ever will

I highly suggest you actually sit down and make a consistent looking map, cause here's an analogy: "to be sure that you're answering perfectly incorrect to a question, you must know the perfect answer for that question", to map something abnormal you must know how to map something normal in the first place. After that you can alter what's fundamental in normal map and alter it consistently in the map that's really how HW get away with bullshit SV change, it's consistent and obvious, both aesthetically and playing wise. But I'm just not trying to map something abnormal. I'm not trying to map something normal either. I just want to map something good. If something makes sense to me, I will apply it, if it doesn't I won't. I never think "what's a weird/interesting/unique way to map this" I simply think "What is the best way to map this". Or "How can I best map this, to it reflects my interpretation of the song.

but one things for sure and yes it's an insult, but BNs/QATs wouldn't even touch your map if your slider art stays this way and I'm 99% sure about it. unless you made it consistently like how monstrata did with alien, but look how that map turned out and you can't pull it off cause you don't even know how to make good looking map in the eyes of the majority Yes I do realize I'm a fukin hypocrite for saying this. Well, I hope BNs/QATs would judge my map on it's own merits, but to be honest, I don't really care about if they will like it or not. Heck, I wouldn't even mind too much if nobody likes my map. And to be honest, I've never understood why people give a fuck about maps being "good looking".

I hope my trust in your stubbornness is good enough to not demotivate you from mapping Not sure exactly what you mean, but my stubbornness will probably always make sure I won't be demotivated from mapping :)

I probably don't even need to KDS I just want to see red text all over my rant, Nah, I don't mind giving Kudosu to people who actually put a lot of thought and effort into their mods. And even though this mod barely focused on this map in particular, you pointed out as many things as Mazziv did, and fleshed them out more, besides everything else that you wrote.
N0thingSpecial
I think I can see where your problem lies, I think you will ultimately disagree with me, but essentially you're using too much "it fits the music" and not looking at the bigger picture too much, ok you say you want to make a good map, essentially you want people to play your map and think "hey that was fun I want to play that again", my comment that you're confused about is what I'm saying here. It fits doesn't equal to it's fun. If you want to include non-meta slider SV changes for the sake of "it fits", that sounds fun on paper but in the end if people can't recognize that there's a consistency in those non-meta slider SV changes, they would ultimately find it random despite it fits the music 100% perfectly.

people don't play the map because "it fits" otherwise there would only be one difficulty on each song, and those 23 diff spread mapsets wouldn't exist. That's why I said "majority of the entire fukin human race likes to group shit together so it could be easier on their brains", nobody gives a shit about YOUR interpretation, people only care about how you pattern the map accordingly to the song so that it would provide a consistent and dynamic experience to the song. You understanding the song doesn't mean players will understand the same way, how you let the players learn the song through your interpretation is the point here, focusing on how individual sliders and notes correspond to the specific sound in the music doesn't help them understand the song, patterning and aesthetic will

if it's only one person is thinking it's random it might be his fault, but when several people tell you something feels random there has to be a reason behind it, all of your arguments are about "how I think it's a good interpretation" and not exactly countering our concerns for it feeling random, we feel that it's random cause there's not a central big idea revolving around how you interpret it in the first place, we're not concerned with is your interpretation on individual notes are correct or not.
Topic Starter
jawns

N0thingSpecial wrote:

I think I can see where your problem lies, I think you will ultimately disagree with me, but essentially you're using too much "it fits the music" and not looking at the bigger picture too much, ok you say you want to make a good map, essentially you want people to play your map and think "hey that was fun I want to play that again", my comment that you're confused about is what I'm saying here. It fits doesn't equal to it's fun. If you want to include non-meta slider SV changes for the sake of "it fits", that sounds fun on paper but in the end if people can't recognize that there's a consistency in those non-meta slider SV changes, they would ultimately find it random despite it fits the music 100% perfectly.

people don't play the map because "it fits" otherwise there would only be one difficulty on each song, and those 23 diff spread mapsets wouldn't exist. That's why I said "majority of the entire fukin human race likes to group shit together so it could be easier on their brains", nobody gives a shit about YOUR interpretation, people only care about how you pattern the map accordingly to the song so that it would provide a consistent and dynamic experience to the song. You understanding the song doesn't mean players will understand the same way, how you let the players learn the song through your interpretation is the point here, focusing on how individual sliders and notes correspond to the specific sound in the music doesn't help them understand the song, patterning and aesthetic will

if it's only one person is thinking it's random it might be his fault, but when several people tell you something feels random there has to be a reason behind it, all of your arguments are about "how I think it's a good interpretation" and not exactly countering our concerns for it feeling random, we feel that it's random cause there's not a central big idea revolving around how you interpret it in the first place, we're not concerned with is your interpretation on individual notes are correct or not.
I feel like the general confusion comes from my intention with my map. First of all, I might not have been clear about this, but when I map, I want to make a map that I consider good. What other people think about the map, is second priority by a huge margin. Of course, if people point something out they don't like, and I can honestly say "yeah, I changed that, and I think it's better now", I will change it, but ultimately I will never change anything that I don't fully agree with.
This is the way I treat all kinds of art, not just beatmapping.

I think the second point that can be made here, is the difference between (and I'm paraphrasing) "maps that plays well and maps that are made to get an emotional response in the player", which Charles445 discussed in his podcast. My map definitely falls into the latter category. I think it's a bit silly to suggest, that the only way a map can be "good" is if it's fun. If a map makes you sad, is it a fun map? Of course not, but you still probably had an enjoyable experience playing the map. That's what I want to achieve with my map, I want people to be emotionally invested in the song and my map.

And the point about the map not having a central idea around it, it would be nice if you could elaborate (if you want to, I won't blame you if you don't want to continue with this discussion), because honestly, I see more of a central idea in my map, than I do in many ranked maps.
N0thingSpecial
You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
Topic Starter
jawns

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
It's really quite simple. I'm the most important player when it comes to playing my map. And this is honestly how I would say any good artist should be working, no matter what kind of art he is making. If people don't work this way, you get pop music. That's my theory anyway.

And if people can't figure out my map, so what. It's their problem. And even if people don't understand my map, I have still gotten useful feedback, three out of four mods so far has resulted in direct changes to the map (still not counting mazzivs mod). And as it turns out, there are apparently people that like my map: so far I have two favourites on it. It's not much, but if we follow your logic, that it's only public opinion that matters, that's better than your Utopiosphere map, because even though my map has less than 1/4 of the views your map has, it has 2 favourites compared to your map's 4 (one of the favuorites being mine, because honestly it's a great map).

At the end of the day, the only conclusion that can be reached, is that mapping is objective. I know this is not really very conclusive, but really that's the reality of it. I make the maps that I like. I then hope that other people will enjoy the maps as much as I do, however that's not my main priority. Beatmapping can be a beautiful art form, that can lead to a interactive musical experience I haven't had anywhere else. And it's expressing myself through my maps I enjoy doing. And if I make something I'm really happy with of course I want to share it with the world.

Edit: And when it comes to explaining my idea with this map, I can probably do it in one word: progression.
Mazziv

jawns wrote:

I might not have been clear about this, but when I map, I want to make a map that I consider good. What other people think about the map, is second priority by a huge margin.
If your second priority is the opinion from people,why do you request mods?
Like if YOU consider a map you made good,doesnt mean it actually is good at all. (until you have alot of mapping experience)
Modding is there to get someone elses opinion and by saying ''mapping is objective'' you make it sound like you dont care anyway and just dont accept stuff that doesnt fit in your ''intention with my map'' idea.
Sure,everyone sees stuff differently but if the map lacks in quality(and it does in my opinion) and you have gotten like 3 mods yet,you should think about the stuff thats been pointed out and WHY the modders pointing it out.
As you can see,N0thingSpecial pointed stuff out simular stuff as me,so there-may-be-something-wrong-with-it.
Im not saying that you dont have to accept every suggestions you get,but according to your profile you have little mapping expierence,which is totally fine,but if more than 1 person is pointing something out really should consider the suggestion.
Im used to a mid to high quality level in terms of modding,and imo this map is not even close to those levels.
So i dont know what you expect. In my opinion this map looks like a total mess and my opinion wont change,no matter what reason you bring up to defend your map.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You're kinda contradicting yourself by saying other's opinion is second priority and saying the map is to get an emotional response in the player. I'm sure you have a great idea in your mind, but the execution of the idea is very mediocre to the point i think this is made by me 7 months ago, this has nothing to do with your interpretation and central idea assuming you have one, this is the modding process if people can't understand your intentions you're only going to get useless DS blanket nazi mods, or people telling you to remap, and this is the fault of the mapper, not the modder, it is the responsibility of the mapper to make the most retarded unskilled player understand your intention of your map. There are lots of emotionally expressive maps, if they are successful in doing so, the only two feedback they're going get is "this is a good and effective map" and "I understand the map but I don't like how it is mapped". At this moment people are having a hard time figuring out your map so they're just going to respond with "this is a bad map" or "I don't understand the map" so they can't give you actual advice to improve your original idea

Also when you say you have a central idea, can you describe it in 5 words cause I don't have the slightest idea other than "it fits"
apparently jawns is from 2020 and brings the future mapping. ;)
N0thingSpecial
Firstly, subjective is the word you're looking for, otherwise mapping would all look the same.

Secondly, subjectivity is not the conclusion, it is just the start, tbh nearly everything is subjective aside from stuff like circle size , approach rate, if everything is subjective, that means everything is up to interpretation, which imply there's no conclusive opinion can be form on any map and the word subjectivity would lose meaning itself, and you can theoretically indulge in your own interpretation as long as you want. Realistically it doesn't work that way, subjectivity would still need to face real life implications in order to be useful. the real life implication of mapping is the modding process, it is to ensure that your interpretation can be solidify by a relatively objective perspective, to make sure your map has good flow, pattern, aesthetics, spacing, emphasis, polarity, consistency , timing and a fuck ton of other guidelines we came up with, ultimately to ensure quality under the context of your interpretation. So if you put your map in the modding process you should recognise the coexistence of subjectivity and objectivity. Basically my point is if your interpretation is getting in the way of the quality of the map i think you should just be mapping for grave, people can still like your map but it is definitely not for rank. This is the same thing as "there's no rigt or wrong" but in a realistic modern society we still heavily protect our belief in the legal system.
Condyle
00:00:774 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - nice map
brdzxh
>no/little mapper experience
>big project
>requests mods
>rejects everything
> "guys look at me I know everything about mapping hahah xd!!!!"


Just consider what everyone says and look at it from another players perspective


no kudosu Kappa
Mordred

09simp wrote:

00:00:774 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - remap MiniK
this guy knows
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