Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Development
  4. Feature Requests

Allow to use different Approach Rates in map

posted
Total Posts
313
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,210
show more
AnFace
189 posts
Joined January 2010
AnFace

ziin wrote:

MetalMario201 wrote:

I totally despise when this happens on rhythm games like DDR.
or you know, taiko.

Lesjuh wrote:

Also mind how frustrating this could be when playing with mods, especially hidden because the AR has alot influence on that one. And that's just one of many reasons I'm against this.

These are the 2 strongest feelings I have for it.

On one end there's taiko's system of handling slider/BPM changes where the note simply comes in faster or slower, just as the suggested different AR would cause for standard osu. While this is something that can be used really well to make a map look and feel better, there are also a lot of times in which it makes the map nearly unplayable without already knowing what's coming. I imagine there are plenty of mappers who would abuse the hell out different approach rates and will only cause the maps to be more difficult and/or annoying, rather than artistic. On the positive, this could cause more strict modding/ranking which is always a good thing, and it would raise the potential of maps.

With the case of mods, hidden would be pretty much destroyed. With some cases of HR/DT notes could come in fast enough that it would be, like above, impossible to hit without knowing what's coming already.

I think negatives outweigh the positives
Waryas
Waryas
Now that I think about it, it'll make hidden unplayable.
Not supporting.
FireballFlame
280 posts
Joined May 2010
FireballFlame

JesusYamato wrote:

Now that I think about it, it'll make hidden unplayable.
lol, only for players who play by eye like you. ;)

But yeah, I think it's a bad idea.
Mastodonio
1,120 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Mastodonio
You don't understand,people,that this thing will be very useful. You say that it will be hard to know where to increase or decrease approach rate. Then what can you say about 2x sections and 0,5 x sections? Is it hard to know where to use them? It depends of mappers will. But there are no problems with it - then why can be problems with different ARs? Experienced mappers can use it right,and what about newbies : moddings are created for this,to help to understand where can you use it right.
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish

Giorgos wrote:

You don't understand,people,that this thing will be very useful. You say that it will be hard to know where to increase or decrease approach rate. Then what can you say about 2x sections and 0,5 x sections? Is it hard to know where to use them? It depends of mappers will. But there are no problems with it...
Lol yes there are. Large speed changes are used well so rarely...

Also 2x and 0.5x sections SHOULD be readable becuase of tick rate. They aren't becuase people keep using tick 0.5, but that's a separate issue
Vext_old
987 posts
Joined October 2010
Vext_old
Certainly could be exploited to make a trolololo map, but that is why maps have to be of high enough quality to be ranked, useful if done right and if not they don't get ranked simple enough.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
But such a map will certainly have its legions of fans who love how it just successfully assfucked the osu! beatmapping paradigm, and riot until it is ranked.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
This could never work well enough IMO.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
lol this on CTB ._.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

OzzyOzrock wrote:

lol this on CTB ._.
I could see this wo-
>7AR

>final stream in 9AR

Yeah no.
-----
257 posts
Joined June 2008
-----

Mashley wrote:

Support, it's literally impossible to map progressive songs without this. Just make it an outright rule that this is for songs which vary in tone and not just for added difficulty.
What he said.

I support this idea, but only make it configurable to "per song", not "per map". And make sure it follows the music, not for adding challenge. There shouldn't be any difference for the same interval between different mapsets because music is the same (so you can expect the slow approach rate when the music is on the slow part)
I think that solve the problem with hidden mod too because you can actually know it. (and it's not random)

Update: Apparently I didn't consider about the different approach rates among easy/normal/hard maps when making this post...
Hinanawi-sama
72 posts
Joined January 2011
Hinanawi-sama
I'd rather have it set to "per timing section"
It would not only allow AR changes based on BPM changes, but would also deny AR changes if the BPM doesnt change between timing sections

Simple logic, if the BPM doesnt change, AR isnt allowed to change

Support, no star (for now)
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
You know this would destroy Hardrock's ability to change AR.

Oh and if it did work I do agree that red lines should only be allowed to change AR. That way the rankability of a map comes into question if someone wants to change the AR.
Yomeiro
91 posts
Joined August 2010
Yomeiro
This idea is good for let's say, maps where the BPM changes heavily, or any Compalation of maps (since the songs of the Compilation have differenty AR's in general~)

I like the idea that math mentioned, that you can change the AR when the BPM changes...~
This way, there's some kind of restriction to the usage of different AR's....
The only problem is, that this is still abusable then...

I guess I expand the idea from math, while stating the same idea he already had:
  1. Mappers should just be allowed to change the AR, when the BPM of the song changes. (math's idea~)
  2. If the BPM of the song changes just by "1", you can't change the AR. there should be a minimum of what the change in BPM has to be, so you can change the AR of a song.
  3. If the same BPM is used again in a map (let's say, 1st BPM: 150, 2nd: 125), then the AR you choosed for that kind of BPM is applied automatically.
I guess I support this idea~
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
DDR and taiko do things this way. I've always hated it because it makes patterns near BPM changes extremely messy and hard to read. If osu! were to do something like this, it would have to do it all the time. Doing it only sometimes at mapper discretion would make things EVEN MORE confusing, since it becomes a guessing game. Doing it all the time is something that can't be changed now, something I disagree with (see above), and something that breaks authenticity with the Ouendan titles.
Mastodonio
1,120 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Mastodonio
well,experienced players can play well with different AR's ,I think.
Maybe mappers just should use different AR's only in "Hard" and "Insane" difficulty,because this will be hard to play for newbies in 'Easy' or in 'Normal' with different AR's. Or mappers should use different AR's on all diffs : newbies can adapt to this - this won't take a lot of time!
The second option sounds much better to me. So,I think it's good.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
BPM changes should be apparent in the music and I can only see this being confusing/messy. At that point, you're invalidating several visual cues (this is a bad thing) such as placing hitobject order based on when the approach circles appear.

If you're going from a fast to a slow BPM, some slow BPM objects' approach rates will appear before some of the fast BPM objects' approach rates

that sentence may have been hard to understand, but the gameplay would be even worse
Mastodonio
1,120 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Mastodonio
Well,every man has it's own opinion) I don't agree with you guys - maybe you are right,but maybe you are not.
We should just test this ability and see how it works - If the gameplay will become worse,then it will be possible to put this option away,I think..?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Hinanawi-sama
72 posts
Joined January 2011
Hinanawi-sama
if its THAT extreme^^^^^, then it will be caught when modded
FurukawaPan
649 posts
Joined August 2008
FurukawaPan
I just want to say, I really hope this never gets added.

I really don't ever want to see changing approach rates in any map, God forbid it be a ranked map. >:(

I would only expect a drastic increase in the number of Insanes which become *completely* unplayable to anyone who hasn't simply memorized every move in that map. And if you're looking for a memorization challenge, use hidden or flashlight. :P
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
you could put a restriction on this feature that requires a break section to change it. Being able to change Approach Rate on the fly during active gameplay is destructive to the map's readability. Forcing changes to only occur during break sections would mitigate that nicely. Adding a limit to the delta Approach Rate would also be a good idea.

A few hard-coded limitations would prevent users from being stupid with it. I've had a mild change of heart about the request: when a song is notably faster in one section than another, a faster approach rate makes a degree of sense.
Metro
692 posts
Joined April 2010
Metro

FurukawaPan wrote:

I just want to say, I really hope this never gets added.

I really don't ever want to see changing approach rates in any map, God forbid it be a ranked map. >:(

I would only expect a drastic increase in the number of Insanes which become *completely* unplayable to anyone who hasn't simply memorized every move in that map. And if you're looking for a memorization challenge, use hidden or flashlight. :P
^
Ussuru
Ussuru
No thank you
Mastodonio
1,120 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Mastodonio

Ussuru wrote:

No thank you
Oh God,I waited when you will come!!! Now all I can do - is to give up with this idea and quit.
Suimya
6,374 posts
Joined February 2011
Suimya
I support this idea~>w<
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I support this, as I can see at least a couple of uses for it. If a track slows down, then a slower approach rate would feel better. Irrespective of difficulty, a slow section where the beats appear quickly feels wrong. Conversely, a fast section with a clusterfuck of slow approaches also feels wrong, unless honeycomb puzzles are the desired effect. This brings me to my next point: for added difficulty, an [Insane] map could go from breakneck to puzzling. It would certainly offer an interesting challenge.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

Metro wrote:

FurukawaPan wrote:

I just want to say, I really hope this never gets added.

I really don't ever want to see changing approach rates in any map, God forbid it be a ranked map. >:(

I would only expect a drastic increase in the number of Insanes which become *completely* unplayable to anyone who hasn't simply memorized every move in that map. And if you're looking for a memorization challenge, use hidden or flashlight. :P
^
^
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
I'm honestly not sure I like this idea, because it would look odd, be somewhat confusing, and IMO AR is something that should be consistent throughout the whole map...
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
i dunno D:
Last edited by theowest , edited 5 times in total.
Larto
4,128 posts
Joined June 2008
Larto
I support this idea, because I do believe that there are many songs which switch from very fast-paced, hardcore sections to calmer ones. Well known examples would be System of a Down - B.Y.O.B., La Roux - Bulletproof, Florence + The Machine - Drumming Song, Rise Against - Prayer of the Refugee, System of a Down - Vicinity of Obscenity, and many many more. Just go through your osu! library and you'll quickly find many songs which could probably have used this feature. But, then again, I can understand that larger changes, like from 9 to 5 would already be confusing as fuck while playing. That's why I suggest limiting by how much you can change it. I'd say by 2 points at max. So, if you have AR 7, you can use 9, 8, 6 or 5, but not more in any direction. I'd like that, slight changes like those can already influence how fitting the Approach Rate for a section is. I for example would have liked -1 on the slow sections in Drumming Song and Bulletproof. -2 would only be necessary in really extreme cases like Vicinity of Obscenity. We obviously don't need to go from 9 to 2.

EDIT: And at best, there should be a break between the approach rate changes, but this is understandably not always possible, so the AR-2-Limit must do. And I'd say that if there is a break, you should have a larger limit, like 3, which could be very useful when mapping medleys or other marathons.
Mastodonio
1,120 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Mastodonio

Larto wrote:

I support this idea, because I do believe that there are many songs which switch from very fast-paced, hardcore sections to calmer ones. Well known examples would be System of a Down - B.Y.O.B., La Roux - Bulletproof, Florence + The Machine - Drumming Song, Rise Against - Prayer of the Refugee, System of a Down - Vicinity of Obscenity, and many many more. Just go through your osu! library and you'll quickly find many songs which could probably have used this feature. But, then again, I can understand that larger changes, like from 9 to 5 would already be confusing as fuck while playing. That's why I suggest limiting by how much you can change it. I'd say by 2 points at max. So, if you have AR 7, you can use 9, 8, 6 or 5, but not more in any direction. I'd like that, slight changes like those can already influence how fitting the Approach Rate for a section is. I for example would have liked -1 on the slow sections in Drumming Song and Bulletproof. -2 would only be necessary in really extreme cases like Vicinity of Obscenity. We obviously don't need to go from 9 to 2.

EDIT: And at best, there should be a break between the approach rate changes, but this is understandably not always possible, so the AR-2-Limit must do. And I'd say that if there is a break, you should have a larger limit, like 3, which could be very useful when mapping medleys or other marathons.
sounds pretty nice,I like it
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I seriously don't see this idea working out well at all. This idea is potentially great but I don't see it being used correctly. Plus it would make maps pretty hard to read/predict, like you come from some AR 9 fast map and suddenly in a slow part you get AR 7, it would be just awful. And, plus again, try understanding that applying different ARs in easy diffs may be confusing for those who play them (I think), and AR 7 on insanes looks horrible (on super insanes AR 7 just makes them unplayable), so I would only really be OK if the possible margin would be +1 -1, since with that you get hard insanes to get 8 as minimum, and normal insane maps (or even hards) can get some "good enough" AR variation, but if this is going like +2 -2 I'm totally against it.
Larto
4,128 posts
Joined June 2008
Larto

Wishy22 wrote:

I seriously don't see this idea working out well at all. This idea is potentially great but I don't see it being used correctly.
Just as everything ever can be abused, this idea also can be, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not a good idea and cannot be used well. Besides, if it IS abused, that should be pointed out during the modding process.

Wishy22 wrote:

Plus it would make maps pretty hard to read/predict, like you come from some AR 9 fast map and suddenly in a slow part you get AR 7, it would be just awful.
Which is why +2 and -2 should only be used in rare cases where it really really really fits. Those exist, but are unlikely. +2/-2 was only an example anyways, we can keep it at +1/-1, that's not for me to decide, I was just talking about the general idea.

Wishy22 wrote:

And, plus again, try understanding that applying different ARs in easy diffs may be confusing for those who play them (I think), and AR 7 on insanes looks horrible (on super insanes AR 7 just makes them unplayable),
The ARs would also have to be applied fittingly to every difficulty, obviously. +1/-1 should even in Easies not be that awfully confusing to follow, if it does fit the song. And you wouldn't go from AR 8 to AR 7 in an Insane if the map didn't also become slightly easier at that point. That'd be ruining the point.

Wishy22 wrote:

so I would only really be OK if the possible margin would be +1 -1, since with that you get hard insanes to get 8 as minimum, and normal insane maps (or even hards) can get some "good enough" AR variation, but if this is going like +2 -2 I'm totally against it.
Well, +2 -2 is only a suggestion, like I said, it'd only ever be needed in very rare, very extreme cases. +1 -1 is more likely to ever be needed.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Then we both think the same about this. I was just pointing out that I can already see this being troublesome, since the fact that some players consider some AR unplayable or horrible to play with and others are the opposite is a reality, so maybe in some maps you lower the AR for a slow part and while some players gonna find it ok, some others gonna hate it and bash the map. I just think a feature like this could bear up some problems that can't really be solved since each player has it's own perspective of what AR fits and what doesn't. But of course it could work, guess the best solution for this would be to apply it to some maps so everyone can actually try it and feel how it'd play.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Larto wrote:

it'd only ever be needed in very rare, very extreme cases.
You know, the point of supporting a feature is to show why it's needed; not to say that it's rarely needed hence like saying that it doesn't need to be implemented due to it's rare use.

Other than that, i pretty much agree since im used to associate approach rate with the general speed of the map, and when the map slows down, high AR just feels awkward.
Larto
4,128 posts
Joined June 2008
Larto

Larto wrote:

+2 -2 is only a suggestion, like I said, it'd only ever be needed in very rare, very extreme cases. +1 -1 is more likely to ever be needed.
I'm only talking about +2 and -2. Not +1 and -1, which would be useful fairly commonly.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
oops i missed that :p sorry Larto

@Wishy22: Players already bash maps for plenty other unreasonable reasons i dont see how this would make it any different =/
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
More than 2 unique approach rates are being used in this map.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
More than 1 unique approach rates are being used in this map. For this reason, I have taken the courtesy of deleting it from your hard drive along with all remote copies. Have a nice day, buzz click.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
63 / 313