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3L - Macrophylla Parasol

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pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
I got this, boss 8-)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

please delete the current version of the map and re-download
modified some skin elements and audio files in February 11, 2018

i might try to improve the skin a bit more, but i already finished the updates i mentioned earier (will ask some people to take a look)

update includes:

  1. making the hitsounding to be more compatible for people that plays with their own skin's hitsounds when they enable the "ignore beatmap hitsounds" option, as suggested by Naotoshi and hi-mei (keep in mind that not disabling the hitsounds will still provide the best hitsounding experience, just like in any other beatmap with custom hitsounds).
  2. making the custom slider tick hitsounding to be used more often, to make it a "general style to this map" as suggested by ????????????
  3. the slider ticks are no longer silenced with muted slidertick files. (neonat complained about this a few months ago)
    ^ spots that have no sound in the music but have slider ticks now have the volume reduced with green lines (as suggested by Chewin)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


https://osu.ppy.sh/s/475154
^ slider tick rate 4 ranked nov 2017, because regardless of being fitting to the song or not, it was necessary for the beatmap


https://osu.ppy.sh/s/696607
^ slider tick rate 4 ranked feb 2018, i'm glad that my friend was successful getting his map qualified, he liked what i did with slider tick rate 4 so he wanted to try on his mapping.
8-)
TheKingHenry
1,666 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry
Me when seeing this thread
Anyways check of sorts/M4M from my queue or something
Okay so first of all I see you haven't really changed (atleast a lot) of the point I said to you about the doubles few months ago, see for example this post. It's not really major problem, but it doesn't still make sense to have the pattern used become easier during the course of the song when the logical progression would be the reverse.

Most of my concerns were pretty much in the mod I did back then (maybe lil' more input now). But then as for this slidertick discussion and all this jazz. Not really anything new to say here, pretty much everything is said but at this point it's more of giving in more opinions to see what the consensus is. Maybe.

Kisses wrote:

It's not about the tickrate specifically it's about the hitsounding, for me anyways
For me it's more like this as well. What I mean is that the hitsounds you've used with the slidertick hitsounds (for most part) are very dominant hitsounds in the soundscape that you've otherwise used. Basically what has been said before too, if you think the sounds warrant such strong hitsound, why haven't you mapped them instead? Or if you don't think they aren't important enough to be mapped, why is the hitsound for them so loud? You need to prioritize what you want to emphasise. If you want everything, one option is to map them. If you want to have everything but map only some of the rhythms, you need to prioritize the emphasis on the parts you want to map. This doesn't mean you should get rid of your additional hitsounding on sliderticks, but you can't have the parts not played/clicked sounding dominant compared to the ones played. It's not like it currently results in terrible playability (as can be seen from your testplay posts) but it still confuses at many parts (atleast me) so it could be better. The constant beat slidertick hitsound blends in better and causes less problems, but stuff like 01:45:135 (3) - works worse (and there's like no reason to have slider like that when kickslider actually captures the hitsounded rhythm and plays pretty much the same). Basically, if you want to keep the idea as is, lower the hitsound volume of the slidertick hitsounds or something similar.

So TLDR: I have nothing against this idea you've used if you really want it, but imo the execution of your idea could be done better. So basically as it seems that you're dead on having this and there's apparently nothing objectively against it, I think it's better if we tried tuning the idea to create the best possible result instead of trying to bash it's existence.
TheKingHenry
1,666 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry
So had some lengthy discussion in-game. Some things got changed, some might get changed, some might not. We shall see
Massive ass chat log for those interested in wasting their time reading pointless debate lul
13:29 pimpG: hi
13:29 TheKingHenry: yo
13:30 pimpG: thanks for checking my map again, and i'm sorry for the impression you have of my thread
13:31 TheKingHenry: no problem, stuff like that happens
13:31 pimpG: if i don't defend my map and gatekeep the thread, no one else will
13:31 pimpG: but anyway
13:31 pimpG: ppl seems to hate me less during in game discussions...
13:31 pimpG: what should we discuss about your initial mod?
13:32 TheKingHenry: its because things are private and you can always explain it more during the discussion here
13:32 pimpG: only the doubles?
13:32 TheKingHenry: but wiht forum post you have to be strict and get your point through once
13:32 TheKingHenry: and its public
13:32 TheKingHenry: anyways
13:32 TheKingHenry: well my initial mod hm
13:32 TheKingHenry: there are actually quite few things id like a good reasoning for
13:32 TheKingHenry: gimme sec ill find my mod and your map
13:33 pimpG: did you delete and redownload?
13:33 pimpG: changed a lot of files since your mod
13:33 TheKingHenry: yeah i did
13:33 TheKingHenry: latest redownload date seemed like feb 11 lol
13:33 TheKingHenry: so yeah
13:34 pimpG: yup
13:35 TheKingHenry: my stuff on my old mod was mostly some quite light stuff except for the topics of the present day discussion
13:35 TheKingHenry: stuff like NCing according to music or patterns doesnt really sink this boat
13:35 TheKingHenry: though id like some good reasoning if you do that on blue ticks like i mentioned there
13:36 pimpG: ncs?
13:38 TheKingHenry: comboin
13:38 TheKingHenry: like stuff like 03:50:590 (6,1,2) - 
13:39 pimpG: most of my mapping is vocal based
13:39 TheKingHenry: ya
13:39 pimpG: this 6 was the last part of the vocal
13:39 TheKingHenry: thus NC 03:51:044 (2) - instead
13:39 pimpG: only the slider end is part of the instruments
13:39 TheKingHenry: NC is always structuring emphasis or sorts
13:39 TheKingHenry: and since blue ticks are almost never the important ones in that sense
13:40 TheKingHenry: they shouldnt be the one to be NCd
13:40 TheKingHenry: when talking about triples, the important note is always either the first or last
13:41 TheKingHenry: or whne its tagged along some other object it can switch according to it like here it would be with hte sldier
13:41 pimpG: the blue tick just happens to be the next note after the last part i considered to keep the last combo
13:41 pimpG: the blue tick definitely don't belong in the previous combo
13:42 TheKingHenry: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
13:42 TheKingHenry: as for next what i had in mind
13:42 TheKingHenry: oh yeah it wasnt this but now that i stumbled upon it
13:42 TheKingHenry: 01:08:317 (4) - 
13:42 TheKingHenry: you said there was 1/3 here with some instrument
13:43 TheKingHenry: mind elaborating since i dont hear it
13:43 pimpG: 01:07:863 (3) - seems to be the same instrument as this note is following
13:43 pimpG: the volume is very low
13:44 TheKingHenry: the backing orchestration string?
13:44 TheKingHenry: thats 1/2 too though
13:44 pimpG: but i can tell it is there, as a timing checker
13:44 TheKingHenry: sounds like 1/3 with 100%
13:44 TheKingHenry: maybe lil
13:45 pimpG: if it sounds like 1/3 is because it is 1/3
13:45 pimpG: to me it lines up with the 1/3's even at 25% playback rate
13:45 TheKingHenry: uh if it sounds like 1/3 in 100% its because of hte impression the music gives with all the other stuff goin on, not because its necessarily 1/2
13:45 TheKingHenry: well anyways thats not wat i was going to say about anyways
13:46 pimpG: the sound on the repeat is low
13:46 pimpG: the sound on the red tick is loud
13:46 pimpG: the sound on the slider end is low
13:47 pimpG: the sound on the blue tick after it is loud
13:47 pimpG: the sounds are definitely not on the same ticks
13:47 pimpG: 4 sounds 4 ticks
13:47 pimpG: 1/3's and 1/2's (and 1/4's)
13:48 TheKingHenry: if the 1/3 are so low and the others so loud why are you even mapping them? well that aside nexti  wanted to talk about the jumpstream
13:48 TheKingHenry: 01:41:385 (4,1) - 
13:48 TheKingHenry: thsi was what i mentioend in my mod
13:49 pimpG: the previous instrument is the same as the one i'm following in the 1/3's
13:49 pimpG: what is wrong with this, lets see
13:50 pimpG: 01:40:590 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
13:50 pimpG: the pitch of the sounds is lowering little by little
13:50 TheKingHenry: yeah this
13:50 TheKingHenry: ya
13:50 pimpG: the repeat is the lowest pitch
13:51 pimpG: slider with repeat *
13:51 pimpG: my mapping is not just about the more noticeable sounds / louder sounds
13:51 pimpG: i also take in consideration the pitch of the sounds
13:52 pimpG: i don't even know if this can be considered an old style tendency
13:53 TheKingHenry: okay so basically this isnt wrong in the sense of needing immediate removing
13:54 TheKingHenry: but its the only usage of jumpstreams in the map and how fitting it is in the difficulty can be debated
13:54 TheKingHenry: but at the same time
13:54 TheKingHenry: the sounds its basing on are actually fairly unique in the song as well
13:54 pimpG: it's the start of something
13:55 pimpG: it eventually gets more difficult
13:55 pimpG: 01:46:953 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
13:55 pimpG: and eventually
13:55 pimpG: 01:52:408 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
13:55 pimpG: lower pitch = i usually make it easier
13:57 TheKingHenry: wew i cant find the thing i was looking for mmm
13:57 TheKingHenry: anyways
13:58 TheKingHenry: now for the doubles
13:58 TheKingHenry: do you know what i mean wiht them
13:58 TheKingHenry: i mean not doubles but what i said about them
13:59 pimpG: yes
13:59 pimpG: challenge progression
13:59 pimpG: just like any type of game
13:59 pimpG: gets more difficult as we progress
13:59 TheKingHenry: well sort of that too, but more so that the normal progression of songs intensity levels is forward too
13:59 TheKingHenry: so the last chorus is more intense than the first chorus
13:59 TheKingHenry: if they are of the same music
14:00 TheKingHenry: with no drastic differences in the actual sheet stuff
14:00 TheKingHenry: so thus its reversed to map the doubles so that the hardest ones are in the beginning
14:00 TheKingHenry: its easy to change them anyways so i see no reason not to
14:01 pimpG: i tried to replace the beginning doubles for the pattern with slider
14:01 pimpG: didn't liked the result
14:01 pimpG: i mean i failed to make it work
14:02 TheKingHenry: how so lol, just act like reversed slider convert tool and bam its ready
14:02 TheKingHenry: that being said with low bpm like this
14:02 pimpG: what is this tool?
14:02 TheKingHenry: i dont think the whole slider version of the doubles are even necessary and id rather just utilize the ones with atleast somne circle
14:03 TheKingHenry: i mean slider convert to stream, so if youd use that to the slider version of doubles youd have ready double pattern with circles
14:03 TheKingHenry: so just do it reversed (there aint tool for that though)
14:04 pimpG: you want me to just use the x and y and replace the sliders for circles?
14:04 TheKingHenry: that way it goes with the tool too
14:05 TheKingHenry: ctrl+shift+f
14:05 TheKingHenry: but from circles to sliders youd need to manually tune it to line
14:05 pimpG: oh
14:05 pimpG: btw
14:06 pimpG: i found one example of the nc thing
14:06 TheKingHenry: blue tick thingy or what?
14:06 pimpG: yes
14:06 pimpG: 03:35:817 (5,1,2,3) - this is the ideal nc'ing for that parts in the kiais
14:06 pimpG: imo
14:06 pimpG: the long white tick being the last relevant vocal
14:07 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah thats good one if you are going for the vocal / instrumentalisation separation with NC
14:07 pimpG: that's what i do
14:07 pimpG: i just didn't map the other parts like that so it wouldn't be possible
14:07 TheKingHenry: you see what i mean here now? the middle one of the triple still isnt the important one since when the opportunity is htere you did it differently
14:08 TheKingHenry: that being said how to take the vocal parts when begins when ends is kinda meh too
14:08 pimpG: look at it this way
14:08 TheKingHenry: since basically teh vocal continues on for like 4 beats
14:09 pimpG: the ideal place to stop the vocal is the long white tick, the closest i got to do this for the other parts are half beat earlier or half beat later
14:10 pimpG: half beat earlier = not gonna happen
14:10 pimpG: no one wants that i think
14:10 pimpG: i can't have a nc on a slider end
14:11 pimpG: the vocal is not relevant after the long white tick
14:11 TheKingHenry: half beat earlier at 03:36:044 - would be like my to-go ideal patterning according to music
14:11 TheKingHenry: lul
14:11 TheKingHenry: anyways
14:11 TheKingHenry: due the longevity of the vocal options like NCing as late as 03:36:953 (5) - isnt really wrong eiother
14:11 TheKingHenry: but anyways ill leave this to you since arguments about NCs and similar are tedious
14:12 pimpG: i'm not mapping vocals after the long white tick
14:12 TheKingHenry: NCing doesnt mean mapping, its how you structure your mapping
14:12 pimpG: sure
14:12 TheKingHenry: anyways that aside for the doubles
14:13 TheKingHenry: what i said earlier about the whole slider pattern
14:13 TheKingHenry: if you remove the usage of that
14:13 TheKingHenry: it becomes more lenient on what you use imo
14:13 TheKingHenry: since the rest mostly utilize the clicking of the doubles in similar way
14:14 TheKingHenry: 03:47:863 (2,3,4,5) - and 01:58:772 (1,2,3,4,5) - work very similarly
14:14 TheKingHenry: and
14:14 TheKingHenry: 03:33:317 (1,2,3) - is little easier
14:14 pimpG: you mentioned earlier that the nc could be used later?
14:14 TheKingHenry: yeah sec i finish my thought here
14:14 TheKingHenry: so for the usage id do 03:33:317 (1,2,3) - for the first occasion of the rhythm
14:14 TheKingHenry: and after that more free usage
14:15 TheKingHenry: but with the circles only one in the last kiai
14:15 TheKingHenry: now for the NC
14:15 TheKingHenry: yes i think it coulbe done as a latter one too?
14:15 pimpG: on the stream?
14:15 TheKingHenry: like hold up sec
14:15 TheKingHenry: for this for example
14:15 TheKingHenry: 03:34:226 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14) - 
14:15 TheKingHenry: it could also be possible to NC03:36:953 (10) - 
14:16 TheKingHenry: when the current one is
14:16 TheKingHenry: 03:36:272 (6) - 
14:16 TheKingHenry: to similar relative places the replacing NC would be
14:16 TheKingHenry: 02:02:408 (5) - 
14:17 TheKingHenry: 02:16:953 (4) - 
14:17 TheKingHenry: 03:51:499 (4) - 
14:17 pimpG: so basically move the nc to the streams
14:17 pimpG: seems ok i think
14:17 TheKingHenry: yeah basically, thatd be fine too
14:18 pimpG: consider it done for now
14:18 TheKingHenry: k
14:19 TheKingHenry: now that we are talking NCs, also mentioned that solo section in the in my mod
14:19 TheKingHenry: its already consisting of a lot of difficult rhythms for this level of difficulty so id like you to improve the structuring with the NCs, since currently theres a lot of slack
14:20 pimpG: ??
14:20 TheKingHenry: uh like
14:20 pimpG: wait are you saying that my rhythm is difficult for an insane?
14:21 TheKingHenry: well that could be said too but its irrelevant isnce its approval map, we dont need to take spread progression into accord
14:21 TheKingHenry: its a fact it contains lot of rhythms not normally on this SR diff but its due low bpm not rising the rating
14:21 TheKingHenry: and it doesnt matter
14:21 TheKingHenry: what i mean that sicne there are difficult rhythms in the song that are mapped in the map
14:22 TheKingHenry: itd be beneficial to make the NCing solid since that helps players grasp the song better
14:22 pimpG: i honestly don't see my NC patterns as not solid
14:23 TheKingHenry: on some occasions it woudlnt hurt to slightly change the way youve mapped the rhythms too as in for sliderend placements and such
14:23 pimpG: where do you think it could be improved?
14:23 TheKingHenry: anyways okay lemme give examples
14:23 TheKingHenry: so we talkin bout this section from 04:59:681 - onwards
14:24 TheKingHenry: okay so the main reason this could be improved is
14:24 TheKingHenry: because it feels like its neither following the downbeats of the oveerall music nor the gimmicks of the flute but rather trying to utilize both
14:24 TheKingHenry: which is why it can get messy
14:25 TheKingHenry: from the beginning, see 04:59:681 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - for now
14:26 pimpG: the flute is the main instrument i followed
14:26 TheKingHenry: 05:01:499 (8,1) - is done according to the flute ending a phrase and going out (done with NCing the going out not the downbeated last flute -> flute gimmicks)
14:26 TheKingHenry: now then the next one
14:26 TheKingHenry: 05:02:863 (4,1) - 
14:26 TheKingHenry: pretty much shatters it
14:26 TheKingHenry: since for this one, both the flute gimmicks and musical downbeat lead towards the same tick
14:26 TheKingHenry: that is 05:03:317 (2) - 
14:27 TheKingHenry: ignoring that and going onwards
14:27 TheKingHenry: 05:03:658 (3,1) - is like the first one, NC change when flute dies out
14:27 TheKingHenry: 05:05:817 (9,10) - is the real problem for the flute follwoing though, since its obviously when the flute comes back in but its not followed
14:27 TheKingHenry: also happens to position on downbeat of sorts
14:28 TheKingHenry: then at 05:06:953 (3,1,2) - 05:07:408 (1) - is NCd even though according to NCing with the flute dying out 05:07:635 (2) - should be the NC
14:28 TheKingHenry: thats now first few secs of this section
14:28 TheKingHenry: you see what i mean
14:28 TheKingHenry: ?
14:29 pimpG: i think so
14:29 pimpG: the nc'ing is not accurate as it could be
14:30 TheKingHenry: id rather NC it according to musical downbeats since not only does the flute line up with them quite often, the gimmciks that do not are often still leading towards them
14:30 pimpG: and the reason is that the mapping was not made thinking on the new combo usage
14:30 TheKingHenry: and flute gimmicks arent too reliable source to structure around anyways
14:30 TheKingHenry: yeah i see that
14:31 TheKingHenry: since for example sliders like 05:04:908 (5) - are terrifying in terms of NCing haha
14:31 pimpG: yup
14:31 TheKingHenry: well you can probably tune that using this discussion as advice here
14:31 pimpG: those got me thinking
14:32 TheKingHenry: any questions now?
14:32 pimpG: hmm
14:33 pimpG: do you have a consistent nc pattern for this parts?
14:33 pimpG: that actually makes sense
14:33 pimpG: cause i'm not gonna remap just because of nc
14:33 TheKingHenry: hm
14:33 TheKingHenry: lemme see
14:33 pimpG: 05:06:158 (10) - this for example contradicts with what i said earlier
14:33 TheKingHenry: due some of the sliders it might need some artistic shiz
14:34 TheKingHenry: okay so if we first remove all NCs and ill begin linking new ones in a way that it could for example be done
14:34 pimpG: said earlier about using nc on blue ticks since it's the nearest object after the ideal nc spot
14:34 TheKingHenry: yeah
14:35 TheKingHenry: well thats with 05:04:908 (5,9) - 
14:35 pimpG: cause it would make this part look bad
14:35 TheKingHenry: and they are one sliders id change sothat the ends are clicked
14:35 TheKingHenry: anyways going on with the NCin
14:35 TheKingHenry: obvious 04:59:681 (1) - 
14:35 TheKingHenry: 05:01:499 (8) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: 05:03:317 (2) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: next would be the sliderend of05:04:908 (5) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: then 05:06:953 (3) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: 05:08:544 (1) - 
14:36 pimpG: main beat nc'ing
14:37 TheKingHenry: 05:10:590 (1) - 
14:37 TheKingHenry: 05:12:408 (1) - 
14:37 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah its mostly main beat NCing since not only is it the most clear way to NC, most of the time the music lines up according to it too
14:37 TheKingHenry: so does the solo here too
14:37 TheKingHenry: with just occasional variation
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:14:226 (5) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:16:044 (1) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:17:863 (2) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:19:681 (7) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:21:499 (3) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: btw as for 05:23:317 (1,2,3) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: id change it little so its more clear what rhythm it is
14:39 TheKingHenry: visual distance aside the DS from the sliderends to sliderheads is pretty much the same as with the sliders before, it wouldnt hurt to use little more differentiation
14:39 TheKingHenry: 05:23:317 (1) - is the next NC actually
14:39 TheKingHenry: 05:28:772 (1) - 
14:39 TheKingHenry: 05:30:590 (2) - 
14:40 TheKingHenry: 05:30:590 (2) - id cut the last repeat from this and map the sounds
14:40 TheKingHenry: then NC the downbeat at
14:40 TheKingHenry: 05:31:953 - 
14:40 TheKingHenry: oopsie no
14:40 TheKingHenry: 05:32:408 (3) - 
14:41 TheKingHenry: 05:33:999 (3) 
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:39:681 (2) - id NC this but due the spinner fuck up 05:38:999 (1) - is fine so its not alone in its own combo
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:41:499 (3) - 
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:43:317 (1) - 
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:46:953 (5) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:48:544 (1) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:50:590 (4) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:52:408 (1) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:54:226 (1) - 
14:44 TheKingHenry: 05:56:044 (1) - (NCing additionally 05:55:135 (1) - is fine liek the current is)
14:44 TheKingHenry: so yeah thats basically what id do with these current rhythms
14:44 TheKingHenry: and how they are mapped
14:44 TheKingHenry: pretty simple way of doing it as you saw
14:44 pimpG: yup
14:45 TheKingHenry: also as you can see theres quiet few links with (1) already so not like its complete mess
14:45 TheKingHenry: quite*
14:46 pimpG: the thing is, this is the most freestyle part of the song
14:46 TheKingHenry: the more important it is to structure it so that the player keeps up with it
14:46 pimpG: my new combo usage during the whole map couldn't be consistent
14:46 TheKingHenry: thats true
14:46 TheKingHenry: well depends actualy
14:47 pimpG: this is because of my mapping style/other things
14:47 pimpG: the 1st half of your nc suggestions seemed agreeable
14:48 pimpG: but the 2nd certainly not (for me)
14:48 TheKingHenry: you mean parts of the map or parts of the suggestion
14:48 TheKingHenry: i didnt think i made 2 part suggestion
14:48 pimpG: your timestamps
14:48 TheKingHenry: fine for what part and not fine for what part
14:49 pimpG: i mean you suggested like 20 nc changes
14:49 pimpG: most of the earlier 10 seemed agreeable
14:49 pimpG: the later 10 not much
14:49 TheKingHenry: hm
14:49 TheKingHenry: okay
14:50 TheKingHenry: anything you want to add or do we move onto the slidertick hitsound stuff?
14:50 pimpG: 05:01:499 (8) - i mean the mapping is following the flute
14:51 pimpG: it very clear because of the way i map
14:51 TheKingHenry: yeah obviously, its flute solo so its clear you are mapping flute
14:51 TheKingHenry: as for how you structure the way you map the flute is another thing
14:52 TheKingHenry: one way of structuring being NCing here
14:52 pimpG: object is another instrument
14:52 TheKingHenry: so like i said in the beginning, either map it along musical downbeats how you can (mostly like you linked the stuff) or flute for how it fits
14:52 TheKingHenry: but be consistent
14:52 TheKingHenry: and problem here is that the flute in the music isnt consistent
14:53 TheKingHenry: so following the musical line with NCing is immediately more consistent thatn flute
14:53 TheKingHenry: independent on whether you want to map flute or not
14:53 TheKingHenry: but anyways no matter what you do with this, make the NCing be consistent with the logic you use so player understands the structure better too
14:54 pimpG: the usage of new combos can be done differently depending on the way it was mapped
14:54 pimpG: my mapping is not very compatible with common new combo logic
14:54 pimpG: because this song in particular made me nc this way
14:55 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah im fine with what you wanted to do, but since it seems like you could improve the way you executed what you did i gave couple advice on how it could be done
14:56 TheKingHenry: basically, no matter how you wanted to do it, the song isnt as inconsistent as your NCing and thats why i recommended a cleanup
14:56 TheKingHenry: thats how i see it here
14:56 TheKingHenry: NCing is easy change anyways so you can just mess with it to see what seems to work best
14:56 pimpG: i do realised that my new combos were going to be complained when i made them, but i honestly don't believe that trying to use a less unusual new combo pattern would benefit the map enough to make consider it to make rhythmical sense
14:57 pimpG: less rhythmical sense*
14:57 TheKingHenry: then what benefit does the current NC give to you? you jsut said the NC clean up would help it make more rhythmical sense, so is there something more worth with the current one?
14:57 TheKingHenry: ohlol
14:58 pimpG: i mean my nc'ing makes more sense right now, it's the closest i could get to fit the rhythm i mapped
14:59 TheKingHenry: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
14:59 TheKingHenry: so anything else or do we now move on to the next topic?
14:59 pimpG: my new combos make more sense to the way i mapped/the song i chose to map
15:00 pimpG: well, i'm happy with my new combos, i'm supposed to make other people agree with me
15:01 pimpG: i'm fine with moving to the next anyway
15:01 TheKingHenry: allright so lets move on to the slidertick hitsounds then, which seemed to be the uproar in the thread
15:01 TheKingHenry: okay so first of all did you read my post yet
15:01 TheKingHenry: i mean atleast you saw it since youre here now
15:01 pimpG: yup
15:02 TheKingHenry: thoughts?
15:04 pimpG: nothing in particular, just that you don't consider slider ticks as relevant as circles/slider ends/repeats
15:04 pimpG: but you seem to be one of the good guys
15:05 pimpG: so, what do you think about slider ticks vs the other hit-able objects?
15:05 TheKingHenry: okay so first of all, both are hitsounds, and their purpose is to give feedback for player's actions
15:06 TheKingHenry: the main difference is that the objects that are hit give active feedback and sliderticks (and sliders) give passive feedback
15:06 TheKingHenry: well you know all this
15:06 TheKingHenry: so thus
15:06 pimpG: yeah
15:06 TheKingHenry: sliderticks should not be more dominant than clickable object hitsounds
15:07 TheKingHenry: since they dont require similar active action to trigger them
15:08 TheKingHenry: note here that passive hitsounds are always related to active ones because to triggere them you need to go through the active hitsounds part
15:08 TheKingHenry: which is the lcicking object part
15:08 TheKingHenry: so this is just to demonstrate the importance order between them
15:08 TheKingHenry: now, the problem here is that the samples/volumes you use for teh slidertick hitsounds are so dominant that they get confused for active sounds
15:09 TheKingHenry: or if straight get confused, they confuse player for the position of the actual active sounds
15:09 TheKingHenry: and this was the problem
15:09 pimpG: k allow me to make a few comparissions
15:09 TheKingHenry: sure
15:10 pimpG: do you think it's fine for sliders to have the same type of hitsounds as circles?
15:11 pimpG: i mean start end or repeat
15:11 TheKingHenry: depends on what kind of sound they are used on in the music
15:11 TheKingHenry: most of the time id say the hitsound usage would be good to be smth like
15:12 TheKingHenry: circles = sliderheads > slider repeats = sliderends
15:12 TheKingHenry: with repeats and ends depending on what kind of sounds they cover
15:12 TheKingHenry: basically this order is according to the click
15:12 pimpG: so circles and slider heats are same tier
15:13 TheKingHenry: sort of, but as i said this kind of stuff also depends on where they are used
15:13 TheKingHenry: due sliders and circles often being used for different kind of sounds/places they arnet necessarily completely equal
15:13 TheKingHenry: same with repeat/end
15:14 pimpG: slider repeats and slider ends being on the same tier i suppose
15:14 TheKingHenry: similarly yeah, what i noted above
15:15 pimpG: well, in general, people seem to not have a problem with using the same type of hitsounds on circles slider start/repeat/end
15:15 TheKingHenry: well, dunno bout that since havent talked too much with ppl about that
15:16 pimpG: i take in consideration the hitsounding i see on ranked beatmaps
15:16 TheKingHenry: yeah
15:16 pimpG: if a slider end lands on a main beat, it will have the same hitsounds as if it was mapped as a circle or slider start/repeat
15:17 TheKingHenry: okay so this was one of my concerns here
15:17 TheKingHenry: not related to if the hitsound itself is okay or not
15:18 TheKingHenry: its more like problem of positioning it so that there is important sound on the sliderend
15:18 TheKingHenry: so instead of strong hitsound being in wrong place in the sliderend
15:18 TheKingHenry: its the sldierend being in wrong place where there should be strong sound
15:18 pimpG: imo, a slider tick is basically the same as a repeat or slider end, in terms of gameplay. you just need to hold and follow until you get there
15:18 TheKingHenry: its not though
15:19 TheKingHenry: if you simplify it to follow or not
15:19 TheKingHenry: sure
15:19 TheKingHenry: but lets think more about it
15:19 TheKingHenry: sliderslide or the follow here is simple
15:19 TheKingHenry: you follow and stuff goes well
15:19 TheKingHenry: but
15:19 pimpG: the only difference is where it goes, the repeat will make you go the oposite direction, the slider tick won't. the slider end is the slider end
15:20 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah, you just told there is difference
15:20 TheKingHenry: they arent similar
15:20 TheKingHenry: repeate forces movement change
15:20 TheKingHenry: this is the same reason for why very sharp slidershape can be used for emphasis even wihtout repeats
15:20 TheKingHenry: since they force similar kind of strong movement chage
15:20 pimpG: this movement change is not even relevant most of the times
15:21 TheKingHenry: following repeat in slider body ≠following sliderbody wihtout repeat
15:21 pimpG: since most of repeats on slider ends don't require you to move at all since the follow circle is big
15:21 TheKingHenry: repeated slider ≠ short kickslider
15:21 TheKingHenry: whatevdr glossary we want to use here
15:22 TheKingHenry: 05:16:044 (1) - you need to follow this stuff
15:22 pimpG: you will need to move anyway since you need to reach the slider end
15:23 pimpG: i doubt you can keep the combo if you just stay where you initially
15:23 pimpG: clicked
15:23 pimpG: regardless of the slider tick rate
15:23 TheKingHenry: ofc
15:23 TheKingHenry: depending on slider
15:23 pimpG: you will have a combo breat in the repeat if you don't follow
15:23 TheKingHenry: but idc about that dude, i dont need sermon about the slidertick now
15:23 pimpG: break
15:23 TheKingHenry: i wasnt going to talk about that
15:23 TheKingHenry: so before i sidetrack more now
15:24 TheKingHenry: two options for thsi thing
15:24 TheKingHenry: A. is just doing what people have requested with two variations: keep current rhythm or map the hitsounded rhythm
15:24 TheKingHenry: seems liek you wont do this
15:24 TheKingHenry: so
15:24 TheKingHenry: B
15:24 TheKingHenry: 3 points
15:25 TheKingHenry: or different categories of sorts
15:25 TheKingHenry: most of this can be done with just tuning what kidn of sounds you use for sliderticks
15:25 TheKingHenry: but anyways
15:25 TheKingHenry: 1.
15:26 TheKingHenry: the ones id definitely change. Here are ones where changing it would not only keep the current idea and soundscape you have, but have like no effect on how it works currently
15:27 TheKingHenry: also note that there are similar things done inconsistently and they get here
15:27 TheKingHenry: now lemme find some links
15:28 TheKingHenry: for example these
15:28 TheKingHenry: 01:48:772 (1) - 
15:29 pimpG: changing = reducing volume?
15:29 pimpG: or replacing the hitsound?
15:29 TheKingHenry: most of these can be done with either of those
15:29 TheKingHenry: though, this is one of the inconsistent ways of doing stuff
15:30 TheKingHenry: see 01:52:408 (1) - 
15:30 TheKingHenry: you havent done all of these with the hitsounded slider, so why even have them at all? the kickslider is better for this anyways since the emphasis of the slidertick hitsounds is not needed for constant bpm beat like with some others
15:30 TheKingHenry: this was example of the 1. category
15:31 TheKingHenry: now for the 2.
15:31 TheKingHenry: unnecessary long sliders with additional hitsounds located in the ticks due the length
15:32 TheKingHenry: probably prime example being 05:30:590 (2) - 
15:32 TheKingHenry: id recommend changing these rhythmically as well and not with hitsound changes, but that also depends on the object in question in this category
15:32 TheKingHenry: this one here would be better off shortened
15:32 TheKingHenry: but for example
15:32 pimpG: those are new hitsounds
15:32 TheKingHenry: ones like 01:14:908 (5) - 
15:33 pimpG: someone suggested me to make the slider tick hitsounding happen more often
15:33 TheKingHenry: with the constant beat applied to long sliders that emphasis something
15:33 pimpG: so it would be more acceptable
15:33 TheKingHenry: can just be tuned with lessening the feedback on ticks
15:33 TheKingHenry: thats something from category 2.
15:33 TheKingHenry: then for the last one, where the most probable solution would likely be hitsound tuning
15:34 TheKingHenry: so 3.
15:34 TheKingHenry: pretty much these dudes mostly
15:34 TheKingHenry: 01:17:294 (2) - 
15:34 TheKingHenry: since its obvious you want to capture the rhythm that is going on there but keep the beat on
15:34 TheKingHenry: you need to make the priorization
15:34 TheKingHenry: so tune down the unnecessarily large feedback from the mid-slider hitsounds
15:34 TheKingHenry: and tune up the active feedback from the object itself
15:35 TheKingHenry: thats about it for me, ill post this log and TLDR to your thread so you can address it the way you feel fit
15:36 pimpG: surely
15:36 pimpG: sorry for the discussion taking too long
15:36 TheKingHenry: no problem
15:36 TheKingHenry: hopefully i was of some help here
TLDR

Read the log if something doesn't make sense.

Two possible ways of perhaps solving this situation:

A.

Remove the slidertick hitsounds and the high slidertick rate. Basically what many have been asking in this thread. Then either
1. Keep the rhythms as is
or
2. Map the previously hitsounded rhythms (only the most important ones).

B.

Keep the sliderticks and hitsounds but tune them and things related to them to create better end result. In different categories depending on whether I think they should be changed rhythmically too or just tuning the way of the hitsounds:
1. The ones I think should be changed. This includes usages of the slidertick hitsounds that'd either work overall work better without, tuned down or when they are already inconsistent with other places mapped without. For example see 1/2 sliders with 1/4 triple hitsounds like 01:48:772 (1) - ; not only is the hitsounding emphasis different rhythm than mapped (like with many places) but it also doesn't line up with the constant beat-types of the slidertick hitsounding. And finally this similar place is done with casual kickslider too for example few seconds later at 01:52:408 (1) -
2. The ones I'd recommend changing. Mostly long sliders with slidertick hitsounded bpm beat. Whether changes would be better off with hitsounds or rhythms, depends. With the like of for example 01:23:999 (4) - or 01:29:453 (7) - with the constant beat, I think just tuning down the feedback of the sliderticks would be enough. With for example 05:30:590 (2) - though it'd be just better off shortening the slider and mapping the rhythms instead. They aren't constant beat so if you consider them strong enough to have them hitsounded, map them instead (or remove the hitsounds from these).
3. The ones with hitsound tuning. This basically mostly means these dudes 01:17:294 (2) - ; as in objects where you've prioritized doing some other rhythm but want to keep the constant beat with sliderticks. Since you've prioritized the rhythm of the slider, tune the hitsounds according to it. Feedback of the constant beat on the sliderticks is way too dominant compared to the actual points of the slider, and shouldn't be that way. Sliderticks down, others up.
And finally I'd also like to see you address the additional comments I made (and possibly other not-closed topics in this thread); the ones related to my old mod here and then the structuring of the last flute solo sections (we mainly talked about inconsistent NCs on it).
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
i hope i didn't miss anything. this mod is kinda difficult to apply... will probably require a bit more of in-game discussion


Two possible ways of perhaps solving this situation:

A. (I don't want to remap, if i simply remove the hitsounds then my map will have very inconsistent hitsounding)

Remove the slidertick hitsounds and the high slidertick rate. Basically what many have been asking in this thread. Then either
1. Keep the rhythms as is
or
2. Map the previously hitsounded rhythms (only the most important ones).

B. (seems reasonable to some extent. made many adjustments)

Keep the sliderticks and hitsounds but tune them and things related to them to create better end result. In different categories depending on whether I think they should be changed rhythmically too or just tuning the way of the hitsounds:
1. The ones I think should be changed. This includes usages of the slidertick hitsounds that'd either work overall work better without, tuned down or when they are already inconsistent with other places mapped without. For example see 1/2 sliders with 1/4 triple hitsounds like 01:48:772 (1) - ; not only is the hitsounding emphasis different rhythm than mapped (like with many places) but it also doesn't line up with the constant beat-types of the slidertick hitsounding. And finally this similar place is done with casual kickslider too for example few seconds later at 01:52:408 (1) -
2. The ones I'd recommend changing. Mostly long sliders with slidertick hitsounded bpm beat. Whether changes would be better off with hitsounds or rhythms, depends. With the like of for example 01:23:999 (4) - or 01:29:453 (7) - with the constant beat, I think just tuning down the feedback of the sliderticks would be enough. With for example 05:30:590 (2) - though it'd be just better off shortening the slider and mapping the rhythms instead. They aren't constant beat so if you consider them strong enough to have them hitsounded, map them instead (or remove the hitsounds from these).
3. The ones with hitsound tuning. This basically mostly means these dudes 01:17:294 (2) - ; as in objects where you've prioritized doing some other rhythm but want to keep the constant beat with sliderticks. Since you've prioritized the rhythm of the slider, tune the hitsounds according to it. Feedback of the constant beat on the sliderticks is way too dominant compared to the actual points of the slider, and shouldn't be that way. Sliderticks down, others up.
as i said before, the slider ticks are gameplay relevant because they have their own default hitsound (different default hitsounds for drum/soft/normal) just like a circle/sliderhead/repeat/tail, they affect the combo/score when you hit/miss them, the skill required to play a slider tick is exactly the same as required to play a slider repeat/end, or even a circle since you can also hit the slider tick exactly on time, they can be skinned and have their own setting.
so yeah, i don't think it's worth remapping any slider ticks since they are already gameplay relevant and i'm happy with the patterns i have.

for now i updated and removed two slider tick hitsound files, changed the new combos I confirmed that I would change and reduced most of the slider ticks volumes

now i have very few custom hitsounds on blue ticks and red ticks, only the ones I really considered essential are loud enough to be noticeable in-game, the unecessary slider ticks are muted again, but with green lines. I think this will work for what you suggested as "The ones I think should be changed"

reduced the volume of the white tick hitsounds, they are still very noticeable, but less than most of the circles and sliders starts/repeats/ends. As for the things related to the hitsounded ticks, i can't really reduce the volume of all white ticks mapped as circles/sliderstart/end/repeats because this is probably 60% of the map. I think this will work for what you suggested as "The ones I'd recommend changing" and "The ones with hitsound tuning"

at this point I think I will just roll back to the previous version of my map (has identical note placement the only difference is that the previous version has much less slider tick hitsounds, like less than 40% of the current version)

i tried to think of a way to adjust the doubles to what you suggested but the results still doesn't pleases me. i still suck at remapping (i've been a terrible re-mapper since my 1st map for rank from 2012), willing to check suggestions

the 1/3 will stay as it is, they are not the loudest rhythm at that part of the song but they are the same instrument I followed the previous/next object and it plays almost like a kick slider with repeat, feels/sounds very natural imo, and I never seen anyone get a miss there.

05:16:044 (1) - 05:30:590 (2) - these sliders are not going to be remapped, they are supposed to follow the vocals that lands on the white ticks, they already do that and the slider tick hitsounds were just there because the current (actually previous) version of the map was made to have a lot more slider tick sounds so i simply added them because it was possible. now i don't have any custom slider ticks on these sliders, they were very optional.

as i said before, half of conventional new combo pattern we discussed earlier seemed to work decently for the end of the song but it was getting less and less fitting as we progress, because the way i map requires me to take a lot of things in consideration when NC'ing and applying suggestions, for example 05:04:453 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - I can't move these objects one pixel because of the symmetry they create, also can't use new combos on the last slider that starts the next rhythm because the symmetry would look dumb with a new combo there and the next circle with a new combo would look weird since it's stacked and distant in timing/placement to the next object.
05:01:953 (1) - this sound for example seems way more important than the one on the previous main beat, I see no problem in keeping the new combo on it.
Imo the ending of the song is kind of a solo for the flute and other instruments, there is not many main beats that actually stands out more than those instruments and back vocal.
my short combos, for example 05:52:181 (1) - and 05:53:772 (1,2) - are back vocals.
i use white combo only for back vocals.
some rhythms are not divided from the next rhythm because this would result on very short combos that really don't deserve that much attention, like 05:41:272 (1,2,3,4,5) -
05:09:226 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - this is split in two combos because the last slider is basically a copy of the previous, i want it to be seen this way.
05:54:226 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - this is the same rhythm but split in two combos because the way i mapped requires this.
so I decided to keep the new combos the way they are instead of trying a more conventional new combo'ing for the most inconsistent part of the song. we can still discuss some small tweaks.


for the structuring of the flute on the end of the song i don't really know what i could say, it is mostly freestyle mapping, maybe a bit out of my comfort zone but i think i did a decent job on this. the rhythm mapped is a bit unusual because the song is just like that. sometimes i tried to map specific shapes like mirrored symmetry 05:04:226 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - , or a more triangle based shape 05:01:953 (1,2,3,4,1) - , sometimes i tried something with no particular shape or specific type of flow like 05:06:385 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) -.
04:59:681 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this part is mostly pitch based, where the lower pitch goes lower on screen and louder pitch higher on the screen, the shape of the combo itself is not really important but i like it. same pitch based mapping for 05:03:090 (1,2,3) - and 05:11:499 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - but unfortunately pitch based placement is not always possible because of screen limitations, obviously.

and possibly other not-closed topics in this thread
I don't know what the other modders pointed that I could possibly address further, I did the best I could to explain stuff and I assumed everyone was satisfied with my replies... if they weren't satisfied with my replies then they shouldn't have back off from the discussion.
anything in particular that they mentioned that you want addressed further?
Last edited by pimp , edited 1 time in total.
Jools
23 posts
Joined May 2012
Jools
Hiya, thought I would do a wee playthrough of the map to see what I thought. I think it plays pretty nicely although confusing at times (which I'll put down to my rank of 79k~).

My play:
SPOILER
https://i.imgur.com/zHcGVRF.jpg

Also please note that I do have an interest in learning to map/mod however this is the first time I have ever tried to do so, so please take everything that I say with a grain of salt as it may not make any sense at all. It's a learning experience for me!

Lunatic (3,82 stars, 856 notes)
  1. I think the skin is sort of confusing as sometimes I read a circle as the first repeat of a slider, this for example: 02:45:817 (3) - I saw the white bunny ear from the slider tail overlapping on to the head of 02:46:158 (4) - and it messed with my brain a little and told me it was a repeating slider. This however may be down to my skill as previously mentioned.
  2. I know this has been mentioned but I'm not sure if I like the hitsounds that start at 00:57:863 (1) although this is just personal preference.
Two tiny little things but yeah, hope this helps? :)
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp

Jools wrote:

Hiya, thought I would do a wee playthrough of the map to see what I thought. I think it plays pretty nicely although confusing at times (which I'll put down to my rank of 79k~). (i'm around 78k :) )

My play:
SPOILER
https://i.imgur.com/zHcGVRF.jpg

hmm yeah i think that performance is appropriate for your actual rank. i usually do slightly better than that.

Also please note that I do have an interest in learning to map/mod however this is the first time I have ever tried to do so, so please take everything that I say with a grain of salt as it may not make any sense at all. It's a learning experience for me!
(we all started somewhere, glad you chose my map :))

Lunatic (3,82 stars, 856 notes)
  1. I think the skin is sort of confusing as sometimes I read a circle as the first repeat of a slider, this for example: 02:45:817 (3) - I saw the white bunny ear from the slider tail overlapping on to the head of 02:46:158 (4) - and it messed with my brain a little and told me it was a repeating slider. This however may be down to my skill as previously mentioned.
    (they are to be seen as White Wolf Girl ears :cry: , yeah i see your point, it can happen indeed.
    i hope it doesn't happens often cause i like the way this part is mapped and i also like the skin elements i added    )
  2. I know this has been mentioned but I'm not sure if I like the hitsounds that start at 00:57:863 (1) although this is just personal preference. (it's the best i could do :o , i think they are better like that than if it was with default hitsounds, i hope i can find better hitsound files before qualification)
Two tiny little things but yeah, hope this helps? :)
your post put a smile on my face so it certainly helped :D
looking forward to see you develop as a mapper 8-)
Jools
23 posts
Joined May 2012
Jools

pimpG wrote:

Jools wrote:

Hiya, thought I would do a wee playthrough of the map to see what I thought. I think it plays pretty nicely although confusing at times (which I'll put down to my rank of 79k~). (i'm around 78k :) )

My play:
SPOILER
https://i.imgur.com/zHcGVRF.jpg

hmm yeah i think that performance is appropriate for your actual rank. i usually do slightly better than that.

Also please note that I do have an interest in learning to map/mod however this is the first time I have ever tried to do so, so please take everything that I say with a grain of salt as it may not make any sense at all. It's a learning experience for me!
(we all started somewhere, glad you chose my map :))

Lunatic (3,82 stars, 856 notes)
  1. I think the skin is sort of confusing as sometimes I read a circle as the first repeat of a slider, this for example: 02:45:817 (3) - I saw the white bunny ear from the slider tail overlapping on to the head of 02:46:158 (4) - and it messed with my brain a little and told me it was a repeating slider. This however may be down to my skill as previously mentioned.
    (they are to be seen as White Wolf Girl ears :cry: , yeah i see your point, it can happen indeed.
    i hope it doesn't happens often cause i like the way this part is mapped and i also like the skin elements i added    )
  2. I know this has been mentioned but I'm not sure if I like the hitsounds that start at 00:57:863 (1) although this is just personal preference. (it's the best i could do :o , i think they are better like that than if it was with default hitsounds, i hope i can find better hitsound files before qualification)
Two tiny little things but yeah, hope this helps? :)
your post put a smile on my face so it certainly helped :D
looking forward to see you develop as a mapper 8-)
Glad to hear I could put a smile on your face :)

I had another playthrough with the maps skin and hitsounds disabled and I done a lot better. Two sliderbreaks towards the end as a result of my poor aim. I didn't get distracted/confused at all with repeat sliders or the hitsounds starting at 00:57:863 (1) -

New score;
SPOILER
https://i.imgur.com/3SHaWdH.jpg

I also uploaded my replay in case you want to have a look. I'm using YUGEN - https://h4n.me/osu/replays/Jools-3L-MacrophyllaParasol%5bLunatic%5d(2018-02-16)Osu.osr
Last edited by Jools , edited 1 time in total.
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
that was a better performance indeed but the fact that you already knew the map certainly helped you to play a bit better. i usually have better performance with my hitsounds on, because i enjoy them more than the default option, and unfortunately I rarely manage to get a full combo, no matter what type of setup I try :o

it is true that in order to get the best performance, we need to use the setup we feel more comfortable playing. that almost always means ignoring the experience the mapper intended to create for his mapset. that is totally fine, even I play more often with the background faded, video and storyboards disabled and ignoring beatmap's skins, even on the beatmaps I created.
as for hitsounds, I don't remember one single occasion were i needed to disable a beatmap's hitsounds in order to get a decent performance, and players with much worse rank than ours also test played the map and enjoyed my custom hitsounds and didn't mentioned them as the cause of their misses.
i guess players like us struggles with many different types of mapping, mostly with what we are not used to play, i suppose.

remember to play my map when you see it ranked, thanks for stopping by :D
ScubDomino
690 posts
Joined September 2016
ScubDomino
someone tldr me why tick rate 4 pls
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
to make my hitsounds consistent and nicer.
slider tick rate 4 is as rankable as slider tick rate 3 2 or 1 anyway.
ScubDomino
690 posts
Joined September 2016
ScubDomino

pimpG wrote:

to make my hitsounds consistent and nicer.
slider tick rate 4 is as rankable as slider tick rate 3 2 or 1 anyway.
so basically you're completely ignoring the entire gameplay aspect of slider tick rates and only focus on getting good hitsounds on the map? I think you're kinda missing the point that hitsounds are made to give feedback to a player, not making the map sound better in the editor. Besides you do know that most people disable beatmap hitsounds anyways right, so any effort you make in justifying the tick rate would be redundant once the map gets qualified, not even pointing out a majority of players that would complain about the slider tick rate just for you to tell them to "justify" them using empty points?

oh and also slider tick rate 2 sounds no different, as 1/4 slider ticks almost make no sound, so why not use that if you still insist on using these hitsounds? I'm sure players and modders will appreciate this as well.
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
my map is fine the way it is, already explained all of this before and I'm not going to explain everything again.
if you read the thread and are still not going to respect my decisions, then there is nothing I can do for you.
if my map doesn't meets your needs I kindly suggest you to find other map.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

updated.
changed some things following TheKingHenry's suggestions.
TheKingHenry
1,666 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry

pimpG wrote:

updated.
changed some things following TheKingHenry's suggestions.
This means about the following (all in addition to the things already changed before with my previous checks with the mapper):
  1. Discussed the messy NCing in the flute solo, most of it stays as is due to what mapper intended.
  2. Applied changes to the doubles in the kiais, creating progression from more lenient patterns to more difficult.
  3. Discussed the slidertick hitsound usage, mainly basing on what was my 1. point in last mod post, and thus changed the couple sliders that were utilizing slidertick hitsounds to create feedback of a different rhythm than the pattern itself. Didn't tackle on similar usage when it was practically unnoticeable to the player.
  4. Some minor things other than these
Since this had some heated discussion here before, I'll leave this open for couple days if someone wants to add/ask about something that they think should be addressed.
Aeril
Beatmap Nominator
666 posts
Joined May 2014
Aeril
i thought muting slider ticks and slider slide at the same time was illegal zzz... if im not wrong doesnt that happen multiple times or i may just have hitsound volume too low, nothing against the hitsounds just dont want dq/pop for dumb reason
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
maybe you have the old version of the map?

I don't have muted sliderslide files anymore. i used green lines in a way that it only affects the ticks, not the slide sound. you can check that by reducing the song volume in the editor and keeping the effects volume loud.

glad you are interested in my map :)
edit: since you mentioned, i decided to check them one more time, and looks like i forgot to adjust the volume for the parts I changed from TKHenry's suggestions. also found a few wrong volume changes.

should be fine now, thanks.
TheKingHenry
1,666 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry
Allright here we go
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,950 posts
Joined April 2014
Xinnoh
Greetings
You should probably delete this file

Last edited by Xinnoh , edited 1 time in total.
Mir
osu! Alumni
2,151 posts
Joined July 2016
Mir
omar is a shithead.mp3
Shiguma
476 posts
Joined May 2014
Shiguma
How does that even happen lmao
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
@TheKingHenry

I am really sorry about this. someone asked me to edit this mp3 a few days ago and somehow I managed to drop in the map folder :cry:

updated


edit: I'll include my wip osuka map in this post to help clearing my name xD: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/693956
Bonsai
1,212 posts
Joined July 2011
Bonsai
yo very cool map, but what's the timing seciton at 00:57:863 for?
bc if it's for resetting the Nightcore-stuff, you'd also need sections at 04:32:408 and 04:37:863 right

also why did you set all the unnecessary sliderticks to inaudibly low volume instead of just using a silent wav for those, aren't you using different samplesets for the hitsounded ticks anyways?
also, a random find, around 01:31:613 there's a lot of lines that don't do anything so the unnecessary sliderticks are actually audible here, is that intentional? :?:
tbh at this point I'm questioning how meaningful that metronome-hitsounding is when it's not there to enhance gameplay but just adds penetrative noises to a well-crafted song, I mean why even add it in the first place, but sure lol I'm not here to make a big deal out of it ^^
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp

Bonsai wrote:

yo very cool map, but what's the timing seciton at 00:57:863 for?
bc if it's for resetting the Nightcore-stuff, you'd also need sections at 04:32:408 and 04:37:863 right (lol yes, nightcore, finally someone who "speaks my language". it's funny because i always check this when i'm requested for timing checks, but i didn't checked my own map completely, i'm hopeless Q.Q)

also why did you set all the unnecessary sliderticks to inaudibly low volume instead of just using a silent wav for those, aren't you using different samplesets for the hitsounded ticks anyways? (I used to have them silenced with muted files but people complained and I made it that way)
also, a random find, around 01:31:613 there's a lot of lines that don't do anything so the unnecessary sliderticks are actually audible here, is that intentional? :?: (yes those are intentional. i had a very complex hitsounding in the slider ticks a few weeks ago but i decided to roll back to simpler one. still kept one or two parts with audible ticks, since this part is very loud. i think it sounds nice and the volume is not too loud, so it won't sound random imo.)
tbh at this point I'm questioning how meaningful that metronome-hitsounding is when it's not there to enhance gameplay but just adds penetrative noises to a well-crafted song, I mean why even add it in the first place, but sure lol I'm not here to make a big deal out of it ^^ (metronome hitsounding is like the most used hitsound patterning we see in this game, that's because unlike the other rhythm games, we don't have specific audio files for every single hit object. the thing is that i needed to do this metronome hitsounding on sliderticks too since my mapping is not a generic 1/1 1/2 spam).
i believe you will agree with me with this since i saw you ranting about generic mapping recently, somewhere.. xD
the lines are going to be added, thanks :)
ScubDomino
690 posts
Joined September 2016
ScubDomino

pimpG wrote:

my map is fine the way it is, already explained all of this before and I'm not going to explain everything again.
if you read the thread and are still not going to respect my decisions, then there is nothing I can do for you.
if my map doesn't meets your needs I kindly suggest you to find other map.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

updated.
changed some things following TheKingHenry's suggestions.
I know it's fine but it's really just a bizarre choice to do. Either way I won't delve into it any further since eh it's not worth it
TheKingHenry
1,666 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry
For some reason I haven't been able to get this mapset to work in osu! anymore since couple last updates (read = opening in osu! it just disappears) so if someone wants to take over they're free to do so atleast from my part. Well, I'll still obviously try some things to get stuff to work again though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
TheKingHenry
1,666 posts
Joined October 2014
TheKingHenry
Finally got it to work so here I am. Let's try again
bossandy
osu! Alumni
1,665 posts
Joined May 2010
bossandy
This one should to go!
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
should be done soon 8-)
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,950 posts
Joined April 2014
Xinnoh
just noticed but your sb needs epilepsy warning

yes, it doesn't look like that much when you look at it from the editor, but kiai also flashes in gameplay when it starts. combine those two together and it spooked me too much. please fix that.
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
not necessary since the combo colors i use are mostly dark, so the kiai effects are minimal
the sb pulse itself is not as bright and constant as the ones from storyboards that needs epilepsy warning

seems to be personal opinion too, since noboby suggested this so far iirc. also nobody suggested this for xxheroxx's map, that uses the same storyboard as i'm using t/89121 (and yes, the epilepsy warning existed 6 years ago / hero gave me permission to use his sb)

will discuss this with the next nominator anyway
Net0
1,238 posts
Joined October 2014
Net0
E ai pimpG o/
Converte failsound.mp3 pra .wav usa o epilepsy warning. Por favor evita confusão com o pessoal, realmente não vale a pena, só ativa isso. É melhor pecar pelo excesso de zelo e cuidado do que com a falta. No mais o mapa tá pronto pra ir pra frente.

o.O
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
failsound é mp3 por padrão na default skin template
Net0
1,238 posts
Joined October 2014
Net0
Okay one last thing;
04:32:181 (1,2) - I don't quite understand why the new combo here is not on the main downbeat transition when in all other chorus sections it was; 01:56:044 (1) - /03:30:590 (1) - . In my opinion this pattern work together 04:30:590 (1,2,3,4,1) - and this is the main transition 04:32:408 (2) -
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
the way you map affects the way you want/can use new combos, it's no different with symmetry.

so it's:



VS



my version is more appropriate for symmetry than the suggestion.
also the 3rd kiai starts/ends differently than the other two kiai, they don't have that slow down, and this slow down ends after the kiai stars for the previous two, just compare 01:55:363 (3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - to 04:29:908 (3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - .

04:32:181 - this is the spot where the slow down ends, it has a louder sound than the previous four objects, sounds much closer to the intensity level of the next objects, i also don't see a problem with not having a new combo on a main beat, the player doesn't pay attention to these things when playing unless the new combo usage is too unreasonable.
Net0
1,238 posts
Joined October 2014
Net0

pimpG wrote:

the way you map affects the way you want/can use new combos, it's no different with symmetry.

my version is more appropriate for symmetry than the suggestion.
It only shows you didn't plan the symmetry properlly with the rhythm here 04:30:590 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - if you wanted it to have the triangle with only one combo, it's inconsistent and doesn't make much sense to me :/
also the 3rd kiai starts/ends differently than the other two kia It might end differently but starts in the same way compared to the previous, just need to check this 03:29:908 (1,2,3,1) - i, they don't have that slow down, and this slow down ends after the kiai stars for the previous two, just compare 01:55:363 (3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - to 04:29:908 (3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - . You're making a comparision of the first chorus with the third, I'm just taking into consideration how the rhythm of the second chorus starts in the same way as the third

04:32:181 - this is the spot where the slow down ends, it has a louder sound than the previous four objects, sounds much closer to the intensity level of the next objects, i also don't see a problem with not having a new combo on a main beat, the player doesn't pay attention to these things when playing unless the new combo usage is too unreasonable.The main transition is still the sound here 04:32:408 (2) - not 04:32:181 (1) - . Indeed there's a distinction of 04:32:181 (1) - compared to the other 1/1 red ticks circles before 04:30:817 (2,3,4) - , but that distinction is nothing compared to the actual start of the chorus here 04:32:408 (2) - , it's applying NC idea for a small transition and not in a major one. I really recommend you re-consider another symmetric idea here 04:30:590 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - so that it can allow you to NC 04:32:408 (2) -
Seto Kousuke
osu! Alumni
610 posts
Joined June 2013
Seto Kousuke

pimpG wrote:

the way you map affects the way you want/can use new combos, it's no different with symmetry.
I'm sorry, but yes, it is indeed different...this is a rythm game, not a visual art game~ Additionally, your arguments do not follow your map, because if that was indeed a true and valid reason, not just a stubborn decision, you would have done the same in many other places, for example 02:01:726 (6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5) - the (9) is in the middle of a pattern of 1/4 notes, this is not "symmetricall" as you imply, they should've been the same combo with a NC at 02:01:726 (6) - . So if your reasoning is indeed a "valid" point, rework the entire NC of the map to show this is the theme of the map, not just one random section.

Additionally, this is the worst thing you could ever say about a NC :

pimpG wrote:

the player doesn't pay attention to these things when playing unless the new combo usage is too unreasonable.
I don't know if you actually play this game besides mapping, but the reading is part of the rythm of the player, the NCs tells a LOT about the rythm and the intensities, if you place a NC the way you did, you're implying there is intensity on that note, but there is not, it's clearly not the strong sound of the kiai. That can actually make the rythm confusing for some people and even remove a lot of the ''feel'' of the map...so yeah, you're wrong, the player DOES pay attention to NC

If I offended you in any moment, that's not my intention, but please try to understand my points ^^"
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
p/6610452
Last edited by pimp , edited 2 times in total.
Mekki
1,794 posts
Joined November 2014
Mekki
I found a way the comboing would represent the patterns/song really well.



This way you can keep the comboing you want and the intensity of the kiai would be well represented (the triplet clearly provides an great emphasys). And of course, keeping the triplet on the same combo section would be the best thing to do as this 04:32:181 beat would come along with this one 04:32:408~

I hope the explanations made sense somehow, comboing in my view is something really subjective and considering the different kiai entry there, it feels absolutely fine.
----------------------------------//----------------------------------------
And allow me to speak some portuguese here real quick so I can explain myself better:

Amore, Net0 e Seto, mesmo se ele quisesse deixar do jeito q tá agora, acho q n teria tanto problema considerando que a batida que está aqui 04:32:181 (1) - já faz parte do kiai imo, e faz parte dessa ordem de combo como um tudo. Não acho que a simetria foi mal usada nessa parte, o movimento feito pelo cursor do (1) pro (2) deixa a enfase no (2) onde a batida eh mais forte bem óbvio, e o combo está desse jeito pelo motivo q expliquei acima, a batida está entre o chorus already e faz parte da pattern simetrica como um todo~ Subjetividade
----------------------------------//----------------------------------------

Seto Kousuke wrote:

I don't know if you actually play this game besides mapping, but the reading is part of the rythm of the player, the NCs tells a LOT about the rythm and the intensities, if you place a NC the way you did, you're implying there is intensity on that note, but there is not, it's clearly not the strong sound of the kiai. That can actually make the rythm confusing for some people and even remove a lot of the ''feel'' of the map.
the player DOES pay attention to NC
And in addition to that you said, the way he kept this NC is not confusing at all. The song intensity is different than 04:31:726 (4) - so there's no reason to keep on the same combo pattern of it. And as I told before, is also different than all the other kiai entrances. I don't approve the idea that strong beats needs ALWAYS to be represented with an NC, he wanted to represent the song section as a whole there, this is not confusing and it is absolutely fine in my view.
Last edited by Mekki , edited 1 time in total.
Net0
1,238 posts
Joined October 2014
Net0
All right, if you guys want to give it a try with this combo idea, I won't force a modification on it. If there's no other points or concerns @pimpG feel free to poke me :>
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
pimp
@MkGuh i honestly like your suggestion, but it's too different from my original idea so i would rather keep D:

as for the other mod, what mkguh said is very accurate so i make his words mine.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

bossandy told me to fix some weird breaks, he also replaced a hitsound with a small delay, and we discussed the same new combo as before, but no change on the combo we are fine with it.
readded two taikosu tick sounds, but using half volume of normal notes
i also silenced some slider ticks that don't have custom hitsounds (the ones Bonsai mentioned last time)
Darcsol improved the quality of my background image
source changed to "東方風神録　～ Mountain of Faith." as suggested by Regraz
Net0
1,238 posts
Joined October 2014
Net0
Okay, let's give it a go!
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