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Inferi - The Promethean Kings

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Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Could you please stop repeating the same quote over and over again about "it can also be played while graveyarded" and "graveyard is an option"?

In the end, the map won't bite off your face when you decide to avoid it. Obviously, you should make sure there is nothing which is in this point that overdone that it needs to be disqualified but you could just leave it if you can't really argue what's wrong with the map. Saying "remove overmapped parts" is pointless.
Reddit
36 posts
Joined January 2016
Reddit
So apparently a big rise in difficulty isnt okay when the song gets crazy itself.



but this is okay when the song itself is consistent but the map gets crazy for no reason?
C00L
1,078 posts
Joined September 2014
C00L

Stefan wrote:

In the end, the map won't bite off your face when you decide to avoid it.
could we just quote this from now on?

I mean just give up for god sake just since you cant play it doesnt mean that other cant, it's not just what you can or cannot play, its mostly about map quality isn't it? Think this through maps don't get qualified if they look bad. You can do the math yourself... (not refering to you stefan just in general)

Congratz Mazzerin btw i never said it before, really great map quality
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

Reddit wrote:

apoplectic, ignorant crap
if you'd have actually looked at the threads and did more than post insinuative bullshit, you'd have realized people did not think quaver's difficulty spike was "okay". Maybe it'd be better for everyone involved if you cut your sarcastic commentary career short.

Stefan wrote:

In the end, the map won't bite off your face when you decide to avoid it.
"If you don't like it leave" stopped being an effective argument in most people's lives once testicles started to drop and periods started to occur. Maps will, and should, be judged by community perspective. Of course, most people have no idea what they're talking about, but that's normal, and you don't figure shit out without making a fool of yourself once or twice, so it's a natural process. Ironic you're calling it the "same quote over and over again" when you responded with the obligatory response to that quote... but I digress.


This map is some bullshit, but it's pretty consistently bullshit and sticks to its theme. I don't like it for personal reasons, but that's normal for Shiirn. I can't really comment one way or the other on the rankability of this map as I'm sure anything I say will be taken with a grain of salt, but if my penny is worth anything I think the map should just be left alone. Shitty deathmetal gonna be shitty.
Battle
2,862 posts
Joined February 2014
Battle
that normal-hitfinish6 is still triggering tho
Remyria
352 posts
Joined June 2012
Remyria
wtf... ... ... ... m'k, that's a retardedly difficult spike (and the rest is ridiculously hard as well)...but it's not bad. You really look like you know what you are doing with these impossible maps. if the other nice 7-8* maps that aren't impossibly hard streams could be ranked as well ;w; <.<

EDIT: it seems that was my 250th message
Last edited by Remyria , edited 1 time in total.
Reddit
36 posts
Joined January 2016
Reddit

Shiirn wrote:

Reddit wrote:

apoplectic, ignorant crap
Yeah ok whatever floats your boat.

Shiirn wrote:

if you'd have actually looked at the threads and did more than post insinuative bullshit, you'd have realized people did not think quaver's difficulty spike was "okay". Maybe it'd be better for everyone involved if you cut your sarcastic commentary career short.
Im aware at how upset people were at Quaver having a retarded difficulty spike that had no justification even being there. Im saying how is this a issue for getting the map ranked when this maps difficulty spike actually fits the music however overmapped you may feel it is. Im not saying "Hey everyone look the entire map is perfect just because i can justify the main thing people are complaining about". I just think it would be better to focus on other parts of the map and try to find real issues instead of "please dq muh overmapping uwu". But whatever, when this map gets inevitably DQed for something unreasonable because he isnt Monstrata or Fycho and doesnt have his special license for using huge jumps in his maps yet. I guess on the bright side i get to make some memes on how Quaver and HAI-TAI is ok but this isnt. 8-)
mithew
393 posts
Joined April 2013
mithew

Battle wrote:

that normal-hitfinish6 is still triggering tho
i don't think it doesn't fit the song but its definitely overused (honestly everyone overuses this)
Bearizm
1,213 posts
Joined October 2013
Bearizm

mithew wrote:

Battle wrote:

that normal-hitfinish6 is still triggering tho
i don't think it doesn't fit the song but its definitely overused (honestly everyone overuses this)
It's used in most if not all Mazzerin's maps. That sound is like his map's identity now despite being used by others before he ranked anything lol
Battle
2,862 posts
Joined February 2014
Battle
well if that's the case then I think it's cool lmao
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Just an update from our side:

We are aware that this map is reported, but we lack technical reasoning to open up a debate about. The stuff that's currently here seems to be widely based on "i think this is too much", while not really providing a) something that would solve the problem people see b) any technical reason why current patterning is broken
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
90% of modders who think they can conceptually understand this map are going to be modding it at 25 or 50% anyway
Ekoro
3,456 posts
Joined March 2010
Ekoro
this isn't disqualified yet come on /s

to me, a map shouldn't be disqualified because of raw difficulty ; even if everyone knows that a 15* would barely make it to ranking no matter how good the map is

the harder the map is, the less you should use technical patterns and use mostly flow-friendly patterns, so the map is still playable while retaining the challenge.

03:23:214 - 03:26:445 - this part is really a pain to play, especially 03:24:945 (3,1,2,3,1) which is really awkward to play because of the very high BPM
03:52:522 (1,2) - this may be too much, i don't really see why the spacing is so high and sudden here.

that's all here, the map is technically ok (even if i admit that there are some overdone jumps, but eh, can we justify it through the song?)

i feel like i already posted on this topic, giving exactly the same opinion
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
mmm, to clarify Ekoro's comment a bit about technical patterns vs flow-friendly;


It's not necessarily when the map is harder, but when the map is faster. The main difficulty with maps like this is the raw density of notes, not their rhythm or predictability. Like I mentioned in Fetish's Empress, high velocity should be relying on simpler pattern-based structure and flow on a more over-arching scale: individual beats blend together at these speeds, so emphasizing them is useless, if not directly detrimental to a map's playability and feasibility. Thus, it becomes more important to have entire combos and measures taken in context, rather than looking specifically at drums or guitar riffs. This is what causes my disdain for the "25% or 50%" modding - you can hear the differences at that speed, but they're irrelevant at full speed. It ruins the map.

What does this have to do with The Promethean Kings? You tell me. I'm just trying to explain what should be considered for this map's rankability, which I feel is a different metric than most people are used to.
Mazzerin
493 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Mazzerin

Ekoro wrote:

this isn't disqualified yet come on /s

to me, a map shouldn't be disqualified because of raw difficulty ; even if everyone knows that a 15* would barely make it to ranking no matter how good the map is

the harder the map is, the less you should use technical patterns and use mostly flow-friendly patterns, so the map is still playable while retaining the challenge.

03:23:214 - 03:26:445 - this part is really a pain to play, especially 03:24:945 (3,1,2,3,1) which is really awkward to play because of the very high BPM
03:52:522 (1,2) - this may be too much, i don't really see why the spacing is so high and sudden here.

that's all here, the map is technically ok (even if i admit that there are some overdone jumps, but eh, can we justify it through the song?)

i feel like i already posted on this topic, giving exactly the same opinion
hmm this actually used to be a triangle triple 03:25:176 (2,3,1) - but gayz and talala both disliked it, after I changed it to this talala could pass it and said it's much better, well the movement isn't awkward at least, the spacing goes up on the strong guitar notes in this section and the triple is part of it (it's the whole white tick after the strongest guitar note, ex: 03:23:676 (1,2,3,4) - 03:24:137 (1,2,3) - 03:24:599 (1,2,3,4,1) - 03:25:060 (1,2,3,1) - and so on)
I think the difficulty comes from it simply being 260 bpm to be honest, I tried making it as non-overlappy as possible (people were having problems with overlaps at first) while having the spacing changes quite clear, but the difficulty of tapping still remains

03:52:522 (1,2) - these aren't much different from 03:48:830 (1,2) - this for example in intensity, and they're spaced similarly, I think that's fine? 03:37:753 (1,2) - could also compare this, these got strong lead guitar notes instead of rhythmic one tho, and the main spotlight of this pattern is 03:37:983 (1) - which is the furthest away, while the other 2 have their final notes closer instead of further away 03:49:060 (1) - 03:52:753 (1) -

I didn't use any "super advanced technical" patterns in the 260 bpm part except maybe 03:47:330 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - but even that one plays very simply, it's easier than it would be if the stream was spaced every 1 note, the part is 99% based around mechanical skill as I said somewhere else (well reading is obviously involved because when things are this fast at such a bpm it gets more intense to read as well)
Torchic
96 posts
Joined August 2012
Torchic
Let's go boiiiis
marshallracer
1,592 posts
Joined December 2010
marshallracer
It is incredible how you're still allowed to use the "rsi" tag although it doesn't have to do ANYTHING with this map
Yeah, it's hard and stuff but why should it have relevance in this map (or any other map you've used it in for that matter)?

I see no connection between rsi and artist, song, album and/or mapper.
If it's about helping people to find "difficult" maps, that's not how tags are supposed to be used. They're predominantely meant for additional sources or relevant people/media/events (if any) it has relevance to.
DeletedUser_6709840
DeletedUser_6709840

marshallracer wrote:

It is incredible how you're still allowed to use the "rsi" tag although it doesn't have to do ANYTHING with this map
Yeah, it's hard and stuff but why should it have relevance in this map (or any other map you've used it in for that matter)?

I see no connection between rsi and artist, song, album and/or mapper.
If it's about helping people to find "difficult" maps, that's not how tags are supposed to be used. They're predominantely meant for additional sources or relevant people/media/events (if any) it has relevance to.
The RSI tag is a medical warning for people who plan to retry this map a ton of time because streams like these really mess up your hands without proper breaks
Mismagius
9,237 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
just a quick reminder that tags can be changed without a DQ so finding wrong things there will not take the map down
marshallracer
1,592 posts
Joined December 2010
marshallracer

RoseusJaeger wrote:

The RSI tag is a medical warning for people who plan to retry this map a ton of time because streams like these really mess up your hands without proper breaks
This can be done in the description aswell without abusing the tags for this

Blue Dragon wrote:

just a quick reminder that tags can be changed without a DQ so finding wrong things there will not take the map down
This is perfectly fine as long as this issue can and will be discussed
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
also memes can be put in tags fairly easily without anyone really giving a shit, missing or misleading tags are far more disruptive than superfluous tags
Lunicia
328 posts
Joined May 2014
Lunicia
mazzerin, get a 10 star map ranked next

edit: fuck i forgot i cant delete this post. fml ;(

accidental double post plz no silence me pls
Last edited by Lunicia , edited 2 times in total.
Lunicia
328 posts
Joined May 2014
Lunicia

marshallracer wrote:

It is incredible how you're still allowed to use the "rsi" tag although it doesn't have to do ANYTHING with this map
Yeah, it's hard and stuff but why should it have relevance in this map (or any other map you've used it in for that matter)?

I see no connection between rsi and artist, song, album and/or mapper.
If it's about helping people to find "difficult" maps, that's not how tags are supposed to be used. They're predominantely meant for additional sources or relevant people/media/events (if any) it has relevance to.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/368060 this map has rsi in the tags, and rightfully so. there isnt a reason why rsi SHOULDNT be in the tags of this map

after all its a 9 star map
Luel Roseline
1,034 posts
Joined February 2014
Luel Roseline
Never mind...
Somebody lock this thread...
Weber
1,254 posts
Joined May 2015
Weber

S A V E R Y wrote:

Never mind...
Somebody lock this thread...
>locking forum for a map in qualified, killing any discussion

?
marshallracer
1,592 posts
Joined December 2010
marshallracer

Xendogenesis wrote:

marshallracer wrote:

It is incredible how you're still allowed to use the "rsi" tag although it doesn't have to do ANYTHING with this map
Yeah, it's hard and stuff but why should it have relevance in this map (or any other map you've used it in for that matter)?

I see no connection between rsi and artist, song, album and/or mapper.
If it's about helping people to find "difficult" maps, that's not how tags are supposed to be used. They're predominantely meant for additional sources or relevant people/media/events (if any) it has relevance to.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/368060 this map has rsi in the tags, and rightfully so. there isnt a reason why rsi SHOULDNT be in the tags of this map

after all its a 9 star map
It's just about the correct usage of tags really
I realize it's a 9* diff, fine, but if you want to make clear to the players that they can hurt themselves while playing this map (which in itself sounds absurd, though it's not impossible), you can more than clearly state this in the creators words or even a sb (even if this may impair the maps appearence in the beginning)

I gave you a reason why you shouldn't use "rsi" as a tag, you even qouted it
AncuL
1,114 posts
Joined March 2013
AncuL

marshallracer wrote:

I see no connection between rsi and artist, song, album and/or mapper.
but like, there's a connection between rsi and the map
Mazzerin
493 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Mazzerin
why are you so salty Bakari once suggested and 'allowed' me to use it, ever since then I've been using it on any of my high bpm maps with lots of 1/2 and 1/4 in a row successfully
marshallracer
1,592 posts
Joined December 2010
marshallracer

AncuL wrote:

marshallracer wrote:

I see no connection between rsi and artist, song, album and/or mapper.
but like, there's a connection between rsi and the map
If you could elaborate that further I'd be glad to read how these two are connected

Mazzerin wrote:

why are you so salty Bakari once suggested and 'allowed' me to use it, ever since then I've been using it on any of my high bpm maps with lots of 1/2 and 1/4 in a row successfully
I listed my reasons why I am so salty about it
Even if Bakari "allowed" you to use it and you've used it several times already, it's still an incorrect usage of a tag
If "lots of 1/2 and 1/4" are the only requirement for a map to have rsi as a tag, then maybe I'd suggest to everyone who makes a map with streams, no matter the BPM or speed of those as long as they are 1/2 or 1/4, to put rsi in their tags

If you're going for warning purposes :

marshallracer wrote:

RoseusJaeger wrote:

The RSI tag is a medical warning for people who plan to retry this map a ton of time because streams like these really mess up your hands without proper breaks
This can be done in the description aswell without abusing the tags for this

marshallracer wrote:

Xendogenesis wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/368060 this map has rsi in the tags, and rightfully so. there isnt a reason why rsi SHOULDNT be in the tags of this map

after all its a 9 star map
It's just about the correct usage of tags really
I realize it's a 9* diff, fine, but if you want to make clear to the players that they can hurt themselves while playing this map (which in itself sounds absurd, though it's not impossible), you can more than clearly state this in the creators words or even a sb (even if this may impair the maps appearence in the beginning)

I gave you a reason why you shouldn't use "rsi" as a tag, you even qouted it
If we're going after Shiirn's thoughts though :

Shiirn wrote:

also memes can be put in tags fairly easily without anyone really giving a shit, missing or misleading tags are far more disruptive than superfluous tags
We'd have to decide as to how we classify a tag such as "rsi", or why even bother using it

As far as I can remember, "having rsi" has been a running gag in the community for not doing well on a map or generally after having played an overly difficult map. Surely, I haven't seen people "complain" about that in a while but then again, I'm not that often reading channels like #osu anymore where this has happened predominantly. But this wasn't always related to extremely hard maps more so than just for maps one struggles a lot on.
So is a running gag, a joke or what we'd today call a "meme" an appropriate tag?
Apparently it is.

But can we take a look at the definition of what "RSI" actually is?

Wikipedia wrote:

Repetitive strain injury (RSI) and associative trauma orders are umbrella terms used to refer to several discrete conditions that can be associated with repetitive tasks, forceful exertions, vibrations, mechanical compression, or sustained/awkward positions.
[...]
Some examples of symptoms experienced by patients with RSI are aching, pulsing pain, tingling and extremity weakness, initially presenting with intermittent discomfort and then, with a higher degree of frequency.
I know I didn't include a lot of the article but this are the key sentences. RSI is a medical condition. How is a medical condition as such related to any of the previously mentioned points, including the map itself? Did the drummer or guitarist suffer from RSI after playing this song repeatedly? Even so it wouldn't be relevant to the tags at all.
Also, if people pay attention to how they play hard stuff and how to treat their body as a temple, they'll actually never encounter rsi, even when playing difficult maps like this one.
In this case I would assume this tag can be - to some degree - considered as misleading.
Even something as deathstreams or anything similar would be more appropriate.
Last edited by marshallracer , edited 1 time in total.
The Emperor
283 posts
Joined September 2014
The Emperor
i would very much like it if rsi keep being a tag used for stream heavy maps and tecnical stream maps as i find half my maps true this tag.
EDIT: irrelevant cuz all maps with rsi tag has "deathstream" or "stream" as tags to.
JMC
osu!artist
1,899 posts
Joined April 2011
JMC
personal opinion, I prefer deathstream rather than rsi, I remember when I multiplayer with 200k rank player play Hommarju feat. R.Cena - Chousai Kenbo Sengen [Insane] they said "omg my hand hurt, I get rsi after play this map, I can't feel my hand.. omg omg omg etc."

rsi seems too general and ambiguous, 200k rank player or lower can get "rsi" instantly after play 5 stars/6 stars map continuously without stopping
so, I think deathstream is the best to describe how BEAST this beatmap, no need rsi tag
bulli
22 posts
Joined August 2011
bulli

AncuL wrote:

marshallracer wrote:

I see no connection between rsi and artist, song, album and/or mapper.
but like, there's a connection between rsi and the map
As marshallracer said, there definitely isn't. If you look at how you get rsi, it just makes no sense.
The thing is, you don't even really get it just out of overstressing your fingers. You have to do the same things over months or rather years very often.
And no it's not "Tenosynovitis" (wikipedia, if you don't know the meaning). I just noticed, that this gets often confused with rsi.

Nevertheless I think that the players know, what they will encounter in the map when reading this tag, so it's not really misleading in this sense
(but definitely, if people assume they could get rsi by playing one map again and again).
Enon
2,690 posts
Joined November 2012
Enon
don't find reason to make a map that you hate going to disqualify
bulli
22 posts
Joined August 2011
bulli

Enon wrote:

don't find reason to make a map that you hate going to disqualify

Blue Dragon wrote:

just a quick reminder that tags can be changed without a DQ so finding wrong things there will not take the map down
Mazzerin
493 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Mazzerin

marshallracer wrote:

Mazzerin wrote:

why are you so salty Bakari once suggested and 'allowed' me to use it, ever since then I've been using it on any of my high bpm maps with lots of 1/2 and 1/4 in a row successfully
I listed my reasons why I am so salty about it
Even if Bakari "allowed" you to use it and you've used it several times already, it's still an incorrect usage of a tag
If "lots of 1/2 and 1/4" are the only requirement for a map to have rsi as a tag, then maybe I'd suggest to everyone who makes a map with streams, no matter the BPM or speed of those as long as they are 1/2 or 1/4, to put rsi in their tags
why do you exclude the high bpm part from your if
marshallracer
1,592 posts
Joined December 2010
marshallracer

Mazzerin wrote:

why do you exclude the high bpm part from your if
I'll have to admit I overread that and I'm sorry about it
Regardless of that, it would come down to what you and what others define as high BPM (playwise)
It could even go as low as roughly 200BPM which may be quite a lot for a few people to play - add lots of 1/2 and 1/4 and inexperienced players could still meme (or rather joke about) "oh hell this is so tough I just got RSI"
It would really allow - regarding everyones own interpretation - a lot of people to add RSI to the tags of their maps, even if you wouldn't agree with it.
So why bother discussing about when a tag is acceptable or not when you could just leave it out alltogether as - for many previously mentioned reasons - it wouldn't fit to the map at all
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
t/480335

If you think this is necessary to be a guideline or even as rule, please follow the thread I've linked. Talking about a general issue - because this is not a map-related issue - won't really help here.

To summarize: It's more than bullshit to add these sort of tags but current phrase applies in this case:

"It's not against the rule, it's not misleading. So it's no problem."

Therefore, the tag can stay until a rule/guideline is added to prevent this.
marshallracer
1,592 posts
Joined December 2010
marshallracer
Well then, I rest my case.

Congratulations on getting this approved :D
Reddit
36 posts
Joined January 2016
Reddit
8-)

blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy
To be honest the map is structurally okay mostly but it has some readability issues in transitions from streams to jumps in the hard solo part. Especially this one: 03:25:926 (4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,1,2) - there are just so many overlaps and spacing changes...
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