Natsu wrote:

Explaining something doesn't make it correct, that's why there are discussions about the issues or questionable things in a map.

Oh, so you're here just to tell the mapper that he is incorrect in his interpretation of the music? Despite saying, and this is a direct quote from your OP, that "if they fit the music or not is subjective"?

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

LefafeI wrote:

Natsu wrote:

Explaining something doesn't make it correct, that's why there are discussions about the issues or questionable things in a map.

Oh, so you're here just to tell the mapper that he is incorrect in his interpretation of the music? Despite saying, and this is a direct quote from your OP, that "if they fit the music or not is subjective"?

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

so you failed to read that I'm worry about the difference of difficulty with the rest of the map and also the playability ? I'm not complaining about his interpretation, I'm complaining about the sudden spike and that the map don't have any target audience, did someone passed it without no fail?, reducing the difficulty at that part may open the map for someone to play it properly (maybe).

Natsu wrote:

so you failed to read that I'm worry about the difference of difficulty with the rest of the map and also the playability ? I'm not complaining about his interpretation, I'm complaining about the sudden spike and that the map don't have any target audience, did someone passed it without no fail?, reducing the difficulty at that part may open the map for someone to play it properly (maybe).

Yeah there's a stark spike in the map's star rating, not so stark in the actual difficulty play-wise. It has been explained several times in the thread already.

The map has been extensively playested by a number of experienced players, and has recieved praise from them, so there clearly is an audience for it as well. It might be true that the players that can pass the map without difficulty-decreasing mods can be counted with one hand right now, but how does that devalue the map in any way? For many of us, enjoying a map doesn't require a final score that the game labels as a "pass". Are players not allowed to enjoy and compete on maps just because they can't perform well enough to meet the game's somewhat arbitary standards of what counts as a "passable score" (Or, as you put it, can't "play it properly")? Who even are you to tell what is or isn't "playing properly"?
If the map was HP1, would it suddenly be more worthy of ranking because people could now pass it without no-fail or half time?

Only nerfing the star rating spike would just compromise the map's consistency, since the current map represents the music just about as well as can be expected. (This is subjective, of course, but plenty of people agree with this, including many very experienced mappers and players and of course Mazzerin himself)

All of these issues are so fundamentally subjective, that even bringing them up after them being discussed so many times already just seems very disruptive rather than constructive.

LefafeI wrote:

Yeah there's a stark spike in the map's star rating, not so stark in the actual difficulty play-wise. It has been explained several times in the thread already.

The map has been extensively playested by a number of experienced players, and has recieved praise from them, so there clearly is an audience for it as well. It might be true that the players that can pass the map without difficulty-decreasing mods can be counted with one hand right now, but how does that devalue the map in any way? For many of us, enjoying a map doesn't require a final score that the game labels as a "pass". Are players not allowed to enjoy and compete on maps just because they can't perform well enough to meet the game's somewhat arbitary standards of what counts as a "passable score" (Or, as you put it, can't "play it properly")? Who even are you to tell what is or isn't "playing properly"?
If the map was HP1, would it suddenly be more worthy of ranking because people could now pass it without no-fail or half time?

Only nerfing the star rating spike would just compromise the map's consistency, since the current map represents the music just about as well as can be expected. (This is subjective, of course, but plenty of people agree with this, including many very experienced mappers and players and of course Mazzerin himself)

All of these issues are so fundamentally subjective, that even bringing them up after them being discussed so many times already just seems very disruptive rather than constructive.

Why you keep talking about star rating?

The spike is there, no I'm not complaining about it being 9 stars, I'm complaining about the lvl of difficulty.

Who I'm to complain about a map in the qualify map section, just a member of the community that is concerned about the direction that mapping is going nowadays, if you didn't read that's the purpose of the qualify section, anyone can post their concern, I'm wonder until when people will notice this.



Yes I read all the map thread, there are alot of complains about that diff spike, isn't only me.

Nerfing that part would not compromise anything, let's don't talk about that, i have enough mapping experience to know that nerfing things don't compromise your map in any way, if playability wins then there should not be an excuse for don't do it, anyways I want to know what the QAT think about this.

Edit:

Btw who can pass this map? tbh atm as Doyak said is the same as a new player trying to pass a hard diff, there is no one, if I'm not wrong.

ohhhh now I understand, you think that the opinnions of the nominators that qualified the map are wrong, since they considered the difficulty spike a non-issue and you don't. That would indeed mean that QAT, being the higher administrative party, is the only souce of any relevancy at this point and further discussion before their input about this is pointless.

LefafeI wrote:

ohhhh now I understand, you think that the opinnions of the nominators that qualified the map are wrong, since they considered the difficulty spike a non-issue and you don't. That would indeed mean that QAT, being the higher administrative party, is the only souce of any relevancy at this point and further discussion before their input about this is pointless.

That apply to any map where a discussion is going on, don't take it wrong, just because a map is qualified doesn't mean is ranked, qualified section is to discuss things related to the map, ranked section is the final product of it, don't merge them, and yes, that's why we used this thread: p/5518455 the QAT check if the issues worth a DQ or not.

TL;DR:
1. There are no overmapped objects.
2. There are no linear movements in the 260 part.
3. It's made with me following the song while having the skill of top players in mind as a reference point to what is playable and what is unplayable.

People react as if it's bad that there's discussion about the first qualified 9* map.
Ofcourse there will be opinions that are different to mazzerin's explanation and ofcourse people will try to make their point clear. Just because there's an "because the song is stronger lel" doesnt mean that noones allowed to post anything about it.

I know i sound like a jackass for saying this (because well, I'm me) but I believe that as long as difficulty spikes are justified by the song, it's fine. In this case, it really is justified simply by the guitar. It may seem like the DS is way too high, but it really isn't when you compare it with all those high bpm spaced streams and stream jumps. The intensity and the lack of density in the 1/2 jumps are compensated with very high DS. Also, consider that the base DS of the jumps are fairly high. There has to be a way to make the most intense part of the song noticeably much more difficult.

This qualified section is made to improve maps that lacks quality, not rant about how a 9* map gets qualified and "nobody" can play it.

o3o

Bearizm wrote:

This qualified section is made to improve maps that lacks quality, not rant about how a 9* map gets qualified and "nobody" can play it.

Well, after all "improvements" this map will be moved to ranked section. Exactly for three and a half people, who can play it and other 300-500 people, who will give it one try with NoFail and forget about it. What do you think, does this map deserves to be ranked? Does the whole community need maps like this? Is there any other reason, despite mapper's will, to move it to ranked section? The answer is no.

This map will be forgotten in a month anyway, no matter ranked it or graveyarded. Enjoy your hype, kids.

god bless u mazzerin

Bearizm wrote:

This qualified section is made to improve maps that lacks quality, not rant about how a 9* map gets qualified and "nobody" can play it.

funny thing is that, its totally playable.. the stream before the kickslider jumps is the hardest part about the map, and thats only because the meta focuses on anything but streams, so of course very few people are able to play it. in any way that doesnt mean its impossible though, it just doesnt fit the skill set of all these anime map players

"i don't like it therefore it shouldn't be ranked"
"i can't play it and almost no one can so it shouldn't be ranked"

there's something called technical quality which is required for getting a map ranked... which this map happens to have
maps like galaxy collapse and red like roses may be "fun" to play (smash your keys through random jumps, sure) but don't have technical quality, therefore that's why they aren't ranked while this map is
people just need to deal with the fact that we should be ranking quality maps regardless if they're hard or not
and if you have absolutely no idea about mapping quality then you should probably stay away from the thread
discussing about "forced difficulty" and actual issues in the map is fine, but saying that the map shouldn't be ranked because it's "too hard" is completely stupid

Locked for cleaning

okay, shitpost warning #2, some things on this thread that weren't contributing to anything, really, died.

Please behave

Bearizm wrote:

I know i sound like a jackass for saying this (because well, I'm me) but I believe that as long as difficulty spikes are justified by the song, it's fine. In this case, it really is justified simply by the guitar. It may seem like the DS is way too high, but it really isn't when you compare it with all those high bpm spaced streams and stream jumps. The intensity and the lack of density in the 1/2 jumps are compensated with very high DS. Also, consider that the base DS of the jumps are fairly high. There has to be a way to make the most intense part of the song noticeably much more difficult.

This qualified section is made to improve maps that lacks quality, not rant about how a 9* map gets qualified and "nobody" can play it.

o3o

If you had a slow song that had a 1/8th stream out of nowhere is it okay to map it because the song warrants it? A map should cater consistency in its design and not be excessive for what its trying to be.



Mazzerin you point out maps like timefreeze and airman as examples of controversial high difficulty maps that are "ok now because C has fc'd them." Do you even think bringing those maps up is relevant? They are consistently difficulty and only have slight to moderate noticeable increases in difficulty in them. The problem is not the difficulty, the problem is how the difficulty is unnatural in the presence of the rest of the map. It's excessive and doesn't fit what else you've mapped.

as for overmapping, I'll ask pishifat to listen to those since you seem to believe he is almighty. (which he is)

A map should cater consistency in its design and not be excessive for what its trying to be.

Hmm... If that's the case I must warn you that pretty much all recent mapping should be DQ then, since most of what we see in recent mapping is maps consistently made as 4* hitting 5* by the abuse of jumps on kiais (this also happened a lot in the past maps by abusing streams).

Saying that the map is mainly mapped according to one star rating(or one difficulty range) and say that the kiai abuses difficulty to increase that should be enough reason to never actually got to rank Road of Resistance, but i didn't see you applying the same logic there.

Not a personal attack, just pointing that this line of argument is pretty empty considering the actual meta of mapping :/

Xexxar wrote:

Mazzerin you point out maps like timefreeze and airman as examples of controversial high difficulty maps that are "ok now because C has fc'd them." Do you even think bringing those maps up is relevant? They are consistently difficulty and only have slight to moderate noticeable increases in difficulty in them. The problem is not the difficulty, the problem is how the difficulty is unnatural in the presence of the rest of the map. It's excessive and doesn't fit what else you've mapped.

Xexxar wrote:

It honestly just feels like its trying to be AS HARD AS PHYSICALLY possible for the sake of being it. Almost no one can play it, no one can enjoy it, so why do it?

?

kkk wrote:

Bearizm wrote:

This qualified section is made to improve maps that lacks quality, not rant about how a 9* map gets qualified and "nobody" can play it.

Well, after all "improvements" this map will be moved to ranked section. Exactly for three and a half people, who can play it and other 300-500 people, who will give it one try with NoFail and forget about it. What do you think, does this map deserves to be ranked? Does the whole community need maps like this? Is there any other reason, despite mapper's will, to move it to ranked section? The answer is no.

This map will be forgotten in a month anyway, no matter ranked it or graveyarded. Enjoy your hype, kids.

Impeccable logic! Bravo! It's been over a year of how your miserable comment on Apparition's thread rots, while the map doesn't, yet to this day you remain completely oblivious to what such behavior will lead to. This kind of input doesn't provide anything to me nor the community, it will change nothing, it affects the quality of the map in no way. Neither the map or you will ever be forgotten though - I can assure you of that - it is already inevitable.

Xexxar wrote:

If you had a slow song that had a 1/8th stream out of nowhere is it okay to map it because the song warrants it?

holy shit 1/8 streams on slow maps aren't even close to how different these jumps are in difficulty, by the way they are used sometimes and they don't come out of nowhere, but rather on intense parts of the song. This comparison would imply that putting 1/16 streams (since the song is 'fast' (I think you were implying it's mostly 1/2 by 'slow'?)) in this map would be just as intense as the 1/2 jumps.. which isn't even close, frankly.

Xexxar wrote:

A map should cater consistency in its design and not be excessive for what its trying to be.

what the... what are you talking about? That part literally never repeats again, the song is extremely unrepetitive and every part has unique spacing that is directly related to each part to make it properly emphasize the hard parts. Don't you see that there are other parts even in the 260 bpm part that are just as spaced as the very spike? 03:37:753 (1,2,1) - 03:44:445 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - 03:52:522 (1,2) - 03:48:830 (1,2) -
well, you probably don't see them because they don't pop up in your aim strain graph app... If you try to argue that 'it's not the same because there's only 2 or 4 notes this spaced' there, I will disagree again, because that's how the song is. The spike simply has a larger amount of 1/2 high pitch notes so it turns out this way, and everything before the sliders builds up gradually.

Xexxar wrote:

Mazzerin you point out maps like timefreeze and airman as examples of controversial high difficulty maps that are "ok now because C has fc'd them." Do you even think bringing those maps up is relevant? They are consistently difficulty and only have slight to moderate noticeable increases in difficulty in them. The problem is not the difficulty, the problem is how the difficulty is unnatural in the presence of the rest of the map. It's excessive and doesn't fit what else you've mapped.

Man do you actually think airman/everything will freeze are consistently difficult? Maybe airman is consistently spaced, but let's face it, the non-spaced parts with back and forths 2 times are the only hard parts in the map. Time freeze difficulty spikes up at the end, which is why people who can play it get 1k+ combo very consistently, while failing to pass most of the time. It's not about those maps, though, so I'll say it again - blame the song for becoming 260 bpm if you want, because I have even larger jumps in the 178 bpm sections, not to mention the technical stream patterns which actually ARE difficult, talala even said he might fail just because of the second solo after passing the first one because the second one isn't exactly THAT easy and the first one isn't THAT difficult.

Xexxar wrote:

as for overmapping, I'll ask pishifat to listen to those since you seem to believe he is almighty. (which he is)

Fine, but just for fun - keep these in mind: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/336414 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1049018

03:30:022 (2) - is that offscreen or still ok? https://puu.sh/rwRfp/094608aaa4.png

Xexxar wrote:

If you had a slow song that had a 1/8th stream out of nowhere is it okay to map it because the song warrants it? A map should cater consistency in its design and not be excessive for what its trying to be.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1012279
I think it's perfectly fine to map a 1/8 stream on a slow song if it called for it. I also don't think ignoring a certain aspect of a song for the sake of being consistent is a good idea either. If a song suddenly became intense on a single part, you should map it.

-[Koinuri] wrote:

Xexxar wrote:

If you had a slow song that had a 1/8th stream out of nowhere is it okay to map it because the song warrants it? A map should cater consistency in its design and not be excessive for what its trying to be.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1012279
I think it's perfectly fine to map a 1/8 stream on a slow song if it called for it. I also don't think ignoring a certain aspect of a song for the sake of being consistent is a good idea either. If a song suddenly became intense on a single part, you should map it.

why not just use a 1/8th slider to avoid an unnecessary spike in difficulty when it might not warrant it, or any other form of sliders to make it reasonable.

as for mazzerin.

aight fine do whatever, no one cares about maps quality anymore anyway so idk why I even make an effort. (i forgot quaver got ranked, this map is fine)

N00dle wrote:

03:30:022 (2) - is that offscreen or still ok? https://puu.sh/rwRfp/094608aaa4.png

Took a look at Autoplay yesterday, looks fine IIRC.

Xexxar wrote:

why not just use a 1/8th slider to avoid an unnecessary spike in difficulty when it might not warrant it, or any other form of sliders to make it reasonable.

Having bunch of 1/8 repeat sliders (essentially making it a long 1/1 or 1/2 section) is just as inconsistent because it'd make the section way too easy, considering it's one of the peak in the song, but oh well, offtopic. My point is having a spike isn't necessarily a bad thing if the song calls for it.

Xexxar wrote:

If you had a slow song that had a 1/8th stream out of nowhere is it okay to map it because the song warrants it? A map should cater consistency in its design and not be excessive for what its trying to be.

If a song calls for it (like really), why not? It's not always good to sacrifice emphasis for consistency. Actually, I don't think there is ever a case where consistency is prioritized over emphasis. If you think of consistency as the higher prior than emphasis then you're playing a target practice. If vice versa; you're playing a circle clicking rhythm game; which is what this game is. xd

I just feel some 260 bpm large space 1/4 jump is funny. But it's just my opinion and this is unrelated to the map quality. No need to reply to this post. The map is good overall, and in my opinion it's good everywhere. And this is not some sarcasm, I mean, man, this map is good.

N00dle wrote:

03:30:022 (2) - is that offscreen or still ok? https://puu.sh/rwRfp/094608aaa4.png

looked through the map with auto at 800x600, nothing should be offscreen (some stuff goes pretty close but it's not close enough for it to be a problem)

for anyone complaining about sharp stream transitions (like this 04:56:597 (1,1,1) - ) you need to understand that mapping is not simply about smooth transitions and flow. I don't really know the name but you can hear the foot pedal (?) kick in here 04:56:765 - which justifies this kind of patterning.

also mazzerin can you tell me about this 05:02:158 (1,2,1,2) - 05:02:833 (1,2,3,4) -

riktoi wrote:

N00dle wrote:

03:30:022 (2) - is that offscreen or still ok? https://puu.sh/rwRfp/094608aaa4.png

looked through the map with auto at 800x600, nothing should be offscreen (some stuff goes pretty close but it's not close enough for it to be a problem)

for anyone complaining about sharp stream transitions (like this 04:56:597 (1,1,1) - ) you need to understand that mapping is not simply about smooth transitions and flow. I don't really know the name but you can hear the foot pedal (?) kick in here 04:56:765 - which justifies this kind of patterning.

also mazzerin can you tell me about this 05:02:158 (1,2,1,2) - 05:02:833 (1,2,3,4) -

tell what it's similar to 04:55:754 (1) - but of less magnitude, those notes increase in pitch while the 2nd group decrease and it isn't as noticeable when it decreases, so nothing really happens

I see thanks

People are complaining about the hugely exaggerated back and forth jumps that are ill fitting to the rest of the map,
when the whole map is ugly and looks unpolished in general.

This map has too low AR/OD and there is nothing the mapper can do about it.
Played in half time, (which many people in this case WILL ACTUALLY DO, (unlike in other maps)) the map becomes 7.22* and AR9.

I can't imagine anyone choosing to map for example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1028733
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/851255
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/724015
:with AR9, taking into consideration that most of the people in around top 5 000 can read ar9DT with ease, and this maps target audience being the top3+ a couple of fast players.

Obviously people are going to say that it isnt the mappers fault, as he cannot rise the AR above 10.
There still is SOMETHING he can do: not overmap like crazy, or consider NOT mapping something that CANNOT be mapped with the current editor.
Sadly that is mostly what he is known for and for what his fanboys will follow him for.

Also, gotta love these comments about this map automatically being better because its not anime music.
I feel like these people do not look at the map at all, but just the music, and mainly want a contrast for the anime heavy scene.
I love this kind of music but I disagree with a choice of mp3 making the MAP any better..

EDIT: cant wait for the learn to read replies

huono_tuuri wrote:

People are complaining about the hugely exaggerated back and forth jumps that are ill fitting to the rest of the map,
when the whole map is ugly and looks unpolished in general.

This map has too low AR/OD and there is nothing the mapper can do about it.
Played in half time, (which many people in this case WILL ACTUALLY DO, (unlike in other maps)) the map becomes 7.22* and AR9.

I can't imagine anyone choosing to map for example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1028733
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/851255
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/724015
:with AR9, taking into consideration that most of the people in around top 5 000 can read ar9DT with ease, and this maps target audience being the top3+ a couple of fast players.

Obviously people are going to say that it isnt the mappers fault, as he cannot rise the AR above 10.
There still is SOMETHING he can do: not overmap like crazy, or consider NOT mapping something that CANNOT be mapped with the current editor.
Sadly that is mostly what he is known for and for what his fanboys will follow him for.

Also, gotta love these comments about this map automatically being better because its not anime music.
I feel like these people do not look at the map at all, but just the music, and mainly want a contrast for the anime heavy scene.
I love this kind of music but I disagree with a choice of mp3 making the MAP any better..

EDIT: cant wait for the learn to read replies

Ye it's like, not mappers fault because he can't rise the AR above 10

mods arent considered for map rankability, except in weird cases like hr drain making the map unpassable

its the player's fault if they cant read the mod they put on

delet this

UndeadCapulet wrote:

mods arent considered for map rankability, except in weird cases like hr drain making the map unpassable

its the player's fault if they cant read the mod they put on

My point is that even with nomod the diff paremetres do not fit, i just used HT for the example.
There just isnt any players that this map is meant for.
ALSO : https://osu.ppy.sh/s/484689

@akali
its not like the mapper is out of options, as i wrote he can remove the map or change the overmapped parts =)
edit: also graveyard is a good option

huono_tuuri wrote:

@akali
its not like the mapper is out of options, as i wrote he can remove the map or change the overmapped parts =)

It's not overmapped or doesn't spike more than kpop or pool party ballads that breeze through qualification system, it just has higher (justified) base difficulty from which it goes up.

More people map more maps, more and more get ranked, if a weird technical cancer that doesn't give any pp or 9*star deathmetal song get through from time to time nothing bad will happen as long as they maintain theoretical quality standards.

huono_tuuri wrote:

There just isnt any players that this map is meant for.

cool opinion you have there

Could you please stop repeating the same quote over and over again about "it can also be played while graveyarded" and "graveyard is an option"?

In the end, the map won't bite off your face when you decide to avoid it. Obviously, you should make sure there is nothing which is in this point that overdone that it needs to be disqualified but you could just leave it if you can't really argue what's wrong with the map. Saying "remove overmapped parts" is pointless.

So apparently a big rise in difficulty isnt okay when the song gets crazy itself.



but this is okay when the song itself is consistent but the map gets crazy for no reason?

Stefan wrote:

In the end, the map won't bite off your face when you decide to avoid it.

could we just quote this from now on?

I mean just give up for god sake just since you cant play it doesnt mean that other cant, it's not just what you can or cannot play, its mostly about map quality isn't it? Think this through maps don't get qualified if they look bad. You can do the math yourself... (not refering to you stefan just in general)

Congratz Mazzerin btw i never said it before, really great map quality

Reddit wrote:

apoplectic, ignorant crap

if you'd have actually looked at the threads and did more than post insinuative bullshit, you'd have realized people did not think quaver's difficulty spike was "okay". Maybe it'd be better for everyone involved if you cut your sarcastic commentary career short.

Stefan wrote:

In the end, the map won't bite off your face when you decide to avoid it.

"If you don't like it leave" stopped being an effective argument in most people's lives once testicles started to drop and periods started to occur. Maps will, and should, be judged by community perspective. Of course, most people have no idea what they're talking about, but that's normal, and you don't figure shit out without making a fool of yourself once or twice, so it's a natural process. Ironic you're calling it the "same quote over and over again" when you responded with the obligatory response to that quote... but I digress.


This map is some bullshit, but it's pretty consistently bullshit and sticks to its theme. I don't like it for personal reasons, but that's normal for Shiirn. I can't really comment one way or the other on the rankability of this map as I'm sure anything I say will be taken with a grain of salt, but if my penny is worth anything I think the map should just be left alone. Shitty deathmetal gonna be shitty.