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Omoi - Snow Drive(01.23)

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nhlx
ok, so:
i'll try to be as polite as possible, but it might not be possible sometimes

Stjpa wrote:

  1. 00:18:929 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Let's just go in-depth for on this pattern as an example. Just by looking at this and listening to the music I can't figure out at all what you are trying to emphasize in the music. The most intuitive thing would be the melody as it's by far the most dominant, however that doesn't fit as you are using big spacing from 1 to 2 which is totally fine, but on 3 the spacing gets extremely low in comparison to the previous two objects. Afterwards you are using 4 circles to...yeah, I really have no idea what you are trying to express with those. Would be completely fine if there was something special like you have 00:20:804 (4,5,1) - here (where the melody also hits the red tick to make the explanation short) but that's not the case. So to summarize this pattern, which was only an example of all the thousand similar patterns you have in this difficulty, it's purely random and totally ignoring the music as you are not doing what the music suggests. I'm not saying that the whole map is flawed as you did it correctly at some points, but a lot of patterns are really similar and thus not really expressing the music.
i guess i won't blame you if you won't hear it for the first time, but theres actually a quite quiet 1/2 percussion beat in this part

and 00:20:804 (4,5,1) you can hear theres the other tone so i emphasize that

Stjpa wrote:

00:24:286 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - In what way is this pattern a lot more intense than everything before? From the objective perspective it seems like you tried to emphasize the different pitches correctly, however that's only partly the case. 00:22:143 (1,1,2,1,2,1) - here you did completely fine, it's extremely noticable that the pitch went a lot higher and another weird noisy sound appears but for some reason you totally escalate with the spacing two measures later and basically make it non-sense as the music gets a lot calmer...and any explanation like "the section is pretty much about to end so I want to emphasize that) doesn't really work as it's not really noticable in the music (and no where near expectable when listening to the song the first time anyway) so there's that.

ok i might kinda agree that this is a bit overhauled, but it also reflects the same pitch change as previously, i do that in other things you pointed out as well

Stjpa wrote:

00:30:715 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - So I can clearly see that you tried to emphasize the higher pitch by using a pattern with higher density, which is totally fine, however you aren't even nearly doing the same 00:32:858 (1,2,3,4,5) - here which is like super confusing because it's just inconsistent, not only density-wise but even spacing-wise it's completely different with not really being anyhing different in the music that gives the player the feeling that the sudden change is justified.
the reason for that is that i bulit up for hitfinish on 00:31:786 (1) -

Stjpa wrote:

00:36:072 - For the ghost stream that actually is already weird enough and not justified at all (yes, your explanation for them aren't satisfying at all and don't really make sense Kroytz), it's even more weird that you aren't highlighting the drums that for some reason land on some red ticks, so basically another major issue where you pretty much just ignore the music.
this is the one objective thing i kinda agree on, i just noticed theres no 1/4 in melody there LOL but still the whole section builds up nicely to the next post-stream section so it's actually negligible if there is a stream there or not since it's still a transition to another part of the music without the noises in the previous one, and the stream shows how you can distinguish that from the previous part

Stjpa wrote:

00:43:572 (1,2) - Hm, ignoring the 1/2 vocals here, mapping the 1/2 melody 00:44:375 (3,4) - here and then all of a sudden give the vocals some love 00:47:858 (1,2,3) - here...
are you deaf? there are no 1/2 vocals in there, this is a perfect place to use two 1/1 sliders

well... and later on i map melody cuz there are no vocals in there?

and then i emphasized vocals cuz they are the most dominant thing? i legit dont wanna be obnoxious at this point but holy fucking shit could you like rehear stuff before you say something?

Stjpa wrote:

These issues are pretty much in the whole map. However, the by far biggest issue in this diff are the screenjumps.

Stjpa wrote:

screenjumps.
LE RAIKONEZEN JUMP TRAININGE MAPER XD TRASH 20 IQ MAPPER ONLY SPAM JUMPS IN EDITROR SO COCKEIZI PLAYS IT

you might not have noticed, but whole map is bulit around these screenjumps, and that's the style i followed in this map. this map is made to make it feel massive and spacious, so it gives the extra vibe to the expirienced player who plays it, since the song itself has some great buildup points in my opinion, and it fits well also

Stjpa wrote:

00:48:929 - in the section starting here you start placing jumps in a way that is not understandable for anyone who listens to the music properly when playing. Because of all the screenjumps you placed here all the emphasis you tried to use in the kiais, which are unarguably the most intense sections in the song by far, completely lose its emphasis and meaning as they are mapped the same way as in non-kiai parts even though they are stronger. Is that intuitive? Not really. Does it make sense? Not at all, and I'm sure you can agree on it, at least a lot of other people who aren't bad at modding / mapping or whatever can. This is just a very big flaw in the maps concepts which is crucial as maps are supposed to reflect the music, which doesn't happen here when you do something like this.
how ununderstandable that i put 1/2 jumps on a fucking 1/2 vocal section? also could you stop going full turbo shiirn autism with your "kiai emphasis" bullshit since it makes zero fucking sense making it a golden unspoken rule of mapping that is forbidden to be broke. if there are jumps that fit and might be bigger than some kiai jumps, why cant i just use them and why would i have to follow some nonsense principal?

Stjpa wrote:

  1. 00:57:233 (4) - This is imo pretty much the same as the white tick on the slidertail of 00:52:679 (4) - so there should be another 1/1 gap to emphasis the strong upcoming melody instead of the vocals in this case, the 1/2 just feels really random to me because there's like exactly the same thing before but you just start adding objects to it when there's no reason to except than trying to build emphasis which can't really happen when you start going inconsistent.
so you call the non-vocal part and vocal part the same? seriosly i start like i cant even treat you seriously anymore

Stjpa wrote:

01:09:286 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - Extremely counter-intuitive that these two bursts lack hitsounding (and thus feedback) so hard when you even mapped a stream with normal hitsounding to a non-existent thing, don't you think?
there is a change from normal to drum hitsounding in 01:09:420 (3,4,5) - and a hitclap on 01:09:956 (5) -

and no, they arent counter intuitive. if you're a bad player and you can't play those, that's your bad, not mine

Stjpa wrote:

01:19:733 (4) - Not mapped to the vocals when you do it every time later on?
holy FUCKING SHIT

do i need to put a fucking 130 decibel megaphone right in front of your ear so you can hear that a vocal note starts over here?


Stjpa wrote:

02:05:358 (2,3,4) - I'm wondering how this is supposed to be readable without an extra NC / good readable pattern. Stacked 1/3's are an extreme pain to read and since there's no special NC the player will still expect the rhythm to be either 1/2 or 1/4 just like usual, so in this case the player would tap 1/4s because there's no way to predict / read the 1/3's properly.
ok let me show you how this works:

in most maps, if there's a burst at the end of the slider, it's most likely 1/4 and it has TWO notes (remember capsed numbers, they are important!)
if there are THREE ( :O ) notes in a 1/4 song that isnt a gimmicky map with doubles all the way, it means it's most likely 1/3!

what a shocker right? if you're a good player you will be able to read that on first try, in the worst case you'll just need one restart to understand it

Stjpa wrote:

Sometimes there are also patterns like 02:10:893 (1,3) - with no real (or clear) concept behind them, so they feel really forced when playing because the pattern is kinda special but there's no music making it fit or anything else that makes it more intuitive 02:23:750 (1,2,1,2) - lol 02:51:072 (1,2,3,1) - Since most objects were 1/4 anyway there's nothing wrong with doing the same same here (let alone that there are some 1/4 repeats with a really similar spacing) and 1/8's on this BPM are extremely punishing, so it's just really unneccesary to do this imo.
in the first one, you can hear the pitch coming back and forth, and so does that slider.
in the second one, have you ever seen ohigan fuzzyclap?
in the third one, i'll learn you how to count!
how many ticks are there in one slider overe there? let's count:
one, two, three, four, five, six! whole six ticks. that means it's 1/6, not 1/8

and by the way it used to be 1/8 but it was changed due to complains of other people

i just have no idea how not to be pissed of at someone who makes zero sense, not even subjective, and for sure not objective one. sorry

if it plays bad for you, that just means you're just not good enough at the game, and that's it
Pachiru
Is it possible to avoid those toxic answers? That would be nice I guess, and there is no reason to be angry, just do a discussion without being angry ^^
Topic Starter
Kroytz
@Pachiru: I can't speak for Raikozen, but when you have someone question your entire mapping integrity in great length, and then make claims that it is 'objectively shit', it's not hard to see as to why one should feel upset - especially when that user made direct offenses to him.

Stjpa wrote:

Yes it sounds rude and harsh, but honestly that's just the truth and there's no other way to say it
^ straight up rude btw.

Also, @GaterRaider congratz on your first forum post~! Seven years without a single comment is quite admirable in some way :3
pkhg

Raikozen wrote:

i guess i won't blame you if you won't hear it for the first time, but theres actually a quite quiet 1/2 percussion beat in this part
u better map actual sounds rather things that are barely hearable (if they really exist)

00:18:929 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - agree with stjpa, just take a look at arieeru's map. rhythm makes a lot more sense than urs tbh

didnt read the entire thing cuz too lazy but the map still can be improved a lot gl
Stjpa
Maybe you should start reading my stuff carefully and properly, it's noticable that you didn't do that in your first answer already


Raikozen wrote:

i guess i won't blame you if you won't hear it for the first time, but theres actually a quite quiet 1/2 percussion beat in this part
The lower spacing of 00:19:197 (2,3) - is still not really justified, you emphasized the melody with bigger spacing but totally ignore it here which I find still questionable as you didn't answer that. The transition from 2 to 3 seems completely fine since there's a percussion, ok fine, but 1) why is it not hitsounded at all to give the player feedback that there's a percussion and 2) why is 00:19:733 (5,6) - mapped even stronger without really having anything it could emphasize?


Raikozen wrote:

ok i might kinda agree that this is a bit overhauled, but it also reflects the same pitch change as previously, i do that in other things you pointed out as well
I don't really understand how it can even reflect the same pitch when the pitch is noticably lower and the previous pitch was like 2-3 seconds ago, so basically not relevant at all anymore.


Raikozen wrote:

the reason for that is that i bulit up for hitfinish on 00:31:786 (1) -
Fair enough, but there's still no reason to map the second build-up less intense when the intention of you is still the same there. Previously you cared about percussion and tried to give it extra emphasis, but 00:31:518 (3) - here you suddenly stop doing it. Not only that, 00:32:858 (1,3) - these have pretty much the same issue. And the overall spacing shouldn't be that much lower, it seems that the melody has a little lower pitch, but the spacing is going so much lower with barely a noticable change when not listening to it multiple times.


Raikozen wrote:

this is the one objective thing i kinda agree on, i just noticed theres no 1/4 in melody there LOL but still the whole section builds up nicely to the next post-stream section so it's actually negligible if there is a stream there or not since it's still a transition to another part of the music without the noises in the previous one, and the stream shows how you can distinguish that from the previous part
That's a reasoning you could use in any map if there's an actual stream leading into a new section. And there's still no reasoning on why you would avoid mapping to the strong drums in the background then.


Raikozen wrote:

are you deaf? there are no 1/2 vocals in there, this is a perfect place to use two 1/1 sliders
well... and later on i map melody cuz there are no vocals in there?
and then i emphasized vocals cuz they are the most dominant thing? i legit dont wanna be obnoxious at this point but holy fucking shit could you like rehear stuff before you say something?
No vocals? I clearly hear 00:43:706 - an S here and an U 00:43:840 - here, so there are actually vocals lol.


Raikozen wrote:

you might not have noticed, but whole map is bulit around these screenjumps, and that's the style i followed in this map. this map is made to make it feel massive and spacious, so it gives the extra vibe to the expirienced player who plays it, since the song itself has some great buildup points in my opinion, and it fits well also
You are exactly repeating what I was saying and I gave you the reasoning on why it's not working as intended. If a map is built around (screen)jumps then they need to be special and emphasized, which can't happen here if you are using them in the whole map and thus not really giving the feeling of the structure you claim to use. Yes the song has great build-ups for sure, but you can emphasize everything differently (not only different spacing) so make everything feel more intuitive and unique.


Raikozen wrote:

how ununderstandable that i put 1/2 jumps on a fucking 1/2 vocal section? also could you stop going full turbo shiirn autism with your "kiai emphasis" bullshit since it makes zero fucking sense making it a golden unspoken rule of mapping that is forbidden to be broke. if there are jumps that fit and might be bigger than some kiai jumps, why cant i just use them and why would i have to follow some nonsense principal?
I'm not saying that jumps outside of the kiai can't be larger than or equal to kiai jumps, however it's simply not possible here because the kiais are by far stronger because of the stronger melody and higher pitched voice so mapping them just the same is not mapping the difficulty accordingly to the music and reflecting it properly. Is that really that non-sense? I don't think so, and a lot of others don't think so either, so you have to do it properly because this is still a community-driven game.

Raikozen wrote:

there is a change from normal to drum hitsounding in 01:09:420 (3,4,5) - and a hitclap on 01:09:956 (5) -
When using the default skin which is common sense when discussing about hitsounding, it's way too hard to notice it which doesn't make sense considering the ghost-stream has a lot better hitsounding that gives good feedback even though there's no stream in the music...


Raikozen wrote:

do i need to put a fucking 130 decibel megaphone right in front of your ear so you can hear that a vocal note starts over here?
My bad that I worded it wrong. What I meant is that you aren't using a 1/1 slider for the long vocals like you did 01:20:000 (1,1,4) - and so on


Raikozen wrote:

in most maps, if there's a burst at the end of the slider, it's most likely 1/4 and it has TWO notes (remember capsed numbers, they are important!)
if there are THREE ( :O ) notes in a 1/4 song that isnt a gimmicky map with doubles all the way, it means it's most likely 1/3!
This is common sense for you maybe, but not for some modders (like me in this example) or any player who doesn't analyze every damn map to learn different mapping techniques or anything like that.


Everything else I didn't comment was just irrelevant or stuff that isn't nearly as important as the stuff I commented.
Naxess
Greetings

00:36:072 - This is not constant 1/4 in the song, but this is 00:39:822 - , which in turns ruins the coherence of the last stream. There's also the parts that Kisses mentioned. EDIT: Since this was answered, I'll add that reflecting the song itself is more important than making for a good transition. You can always accomplish both goals without resorting to the way it is currently done.

00:37:143 - 00:37:947 - 00:38:215 - 00:38:483 - Other snares are seemingly ignored between the repeats, 00:37:545 - 00:38:884 - . Try this instead.

00:49:733 (5,6) - 00:51:875 (3,4) - 00:53:483 (3,4) - 00:54:018 (3,4) - Snare to low-pitched vocal parts look misspaced, in comparison to the notes with actual impacts, 00:53:215 (1,2) - 00:53:884 (2,3) - , for example.

00:58:304 (1,1) - 00:59:375 (1,1) - It was argued that these were a cause for 02:03:661 (3,1) - , yet they their context is very different, and that's what makes it out of place.

00:59:911 - This is placed half a beat too early according to the prior pattern 00:58:840 - 00:57:768 - and should be moved to 01:00:045 - , in which case 01:00:179 (1,2) - can be removed and stream started on 01:00:313 - , where the drum-kicks are initiated, as a way to make the rhythm more recognizable after 00:59:241 - 00:58:170 - .

01:05:268 - Unlike 01:03:527 - 01:04:197 - 01:04:599 - , there's a vocal here which may want to be stressed, since they're being followed so closely anyway. Make the slider a 1/2 and place a circle here. Refer to 01:07:545 (2,3) - . Same goes for 02:21:340 - and any other occurrences.

01:11:563 - Filling this musical gap in with a circle is rather uncalled for. No impact here, but there is at 01:11:295 - , try using that cue to prevent multiple sliders after each other, and to keep this consistent with 01:12:500 (1) - 01:13:572 (1) - .

01:15:179 (1,2) - Since this is so close to 01:15:581 (4,1) - , the latter pattern loses the contrast it was supposed to have, and in turn makes it stand out less. Generally this is solved by using a different type of note, a slider in this case, but that wouldn't follow the vocals as well, right? That's where the spacing concept becomes a problem.

01:29:911 - See no reason to stray from the vocals here. Nothing in the song seems to suggest it. In turn, 01:30:045 (2,3,4,5) - looks very out of place for this section, considering that the majority or other notes here are sliders.

01:39:822 (5,7) - These are distinct sounds, yet they're just like any other note before and after them. It may be that they have a little more spacing than other notes, but this wouldn't be noticeable, due to the low potential of contrast in spacing we established earlier. Look at 01:39:286 (1,2) - , for example.

02:07:411 (3,4,1) - Every two beats, there's a stronger vocal compared to the rest, indicated by the new combos. However their spacing is questionable when making these comparisons. Preferably it would both be visually indicated as well as accentuated. Applies for 02:07:947 (3,4,1) - 02:08:483 (3,4,1) - etc.

02:09:822 - Considering that every two beats have a new combo, this is probably unintentional.

02:12:902 - This vocal is different, and extends over 02:13:036 (1) - , yet the combo placement and spacing seems to contradict that. Could always turn 02:12:902 (4,1) - into a slider otherwise. Vocals are followed throughout the map, after all.

02:19:063 (2,1) - Similarly to 02:18:527 (1,2) - , this is also a group, and should not be continued nor NCed in this way. In comparison, the spacing of 02:19:465 (1,2) - is not warranted, as the two impacts worked with are actually at 02:19:599 (2,1) - .

02:32:858 - This is actually 1/3 snapping up until 02:33:929 - , not 1/4, and applies to all difficulties.

03:16:518 - Considering that a vocal beings here, try changing (2) to a 1/2 slider and have (3) start from 03:16:518 - , extending it to 03:16:920 - .

Qualified maps receive a lot of publicity, so it only makes sense that they would also receive more feedback as a result. "No one said anything before it was qualified!", is therefore kind of missing the point. Most of the time, it's not that no one said anything, it's that no one saw the things in question. The post-qualification process allows the community to share their opinions of the map before it reaches the ranked section. A kind of test version, if you will. Should the reasons be sound, valid and important to the quality of the map, as judged by the Quality Assurance Team after being reported to them, it will be disqualified for further processing. It may be difficult to regain a qualification after this, but that's the whole point. It is necessary to make sure no other issues remain in the mapset before it is, once again, qualified.

Also, Raikozen, please stay calm when responding to mods. It's very rude of you to attack the modder (and other modders at the same time, apparently) for their reasons, rather than the reasons themselves. We're sharing our opinion of the map, in order to help you help yourself improve upon it, so don't take it personally. If you don't agree with something, tell them why, do not insult them for not seeing what you're doing. I would highly suggest you read over the Code of Conduct before making any more responses.

Raikozen wrote:

if it plays bad for you, that just means you're just not good enough at the game, and that's it
This is also a really bad attitude. Just because a modder can't play the map, does not mean they can't bring valid arguments.
hi-mei

Naxess wrote:

This is also a really bad attitude. Just because a modder can't play the map, does not mean they can't bring valid arguments.
Its not true. If you cant play the map, that means that your arguments are losing its value, so if you mod that way, the arguments you provide will be more theoretical rather than practical, which means its more subjective than objective. Which means, the way you understand mapping in theory can be way different from others (or the mapper in question rn), tho the mapping theory can be explained widely, so... uh.
In other words, if you cant play the map, your mod will be just as vague shit at some points, which is a waste of your/mappers time and it doesnt contribute to the map itself.
Seijiro
I wonder when you guys will learn that subjective opinions are perfectly fine in the ranking process...
As long as the person states his reasons and provides examples of what he's saying, it's perfectly fine, so stop with your memery already.

If others don't like your work they have all the rights to tell you so (in a polite way, obviously)
Spoiler: it has always been like this
vipto

MrSergio wrote:

I wonder when you guys will learn that subjective opinions are perfectly fine in the ranking process...
As long as the person states his reasons and provides examples of what he's saying, it's perfectly fine, so stop with your memery already.

If others don't like your work they have all the rights to tell you so (in a polite way, obviously)
Spoiler: it has always been like this
Word.
hi-mei

MrSergio wrote:

I wonder when you guys will learn that subjective opinions are perfectly fine in the ranking process...
As long as the person states his reasons and provides examples of what he's saying, it's perfectly fine, so stop with your memery already.

If others don't like your work they have all the rights to tell you so (in a polite way, obviously)
Spoiler: it has always been like this
You probably dont understand (and im baffled of that tbh, considering ur position in staff), that for now, we got an RC with VERY distinct things in it.
The mod on stuff, that DOES NOT break the RC, can be considered as subjective and its up to mapper, if he should apply it or not.


By forcing your opinion you breaking the current Code of Conduct:



^ unless it breaks the RC ^^^^


Also, for those who's trying to basically nuke this map (or maps in general, like Stjpa's mods usually), the Code of Conduct also contains this:
When pointing out "issues", inspect each thoroughly consider exactly what it is about the particular "thing" you dislike. Then, try to offer a potential solution or improvement and consider exactly how that suggestion will improve the map. If necessary, try multiple suggestions to see which work best - The more help you can offer the mapper, the better.

Means, the mod, that consists of things like "this is shit cuz ... uh i think its shit" are wrong initially.

I think that most of the current BNG didnt even read the Code of Conduct >_>
Nozhomi
Since there's some discussion here, I would try to add small stuff about Raikozen's Everlasting Memory diff :

  1. 00:10:358 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - Spacing shoun't increase like that. The intensity on vocal remain constant here, so increase spacing don't fit music as it should. Smth more organized like on the previous diff works with it much better.
  2. 00:36:072 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - I don't understand how you built this stream. I feel like these reverse are placed randomly in the middle. Drums follow a certain pattern, like you can hear drums are stronger at 00:37:947 - , so this would be a nice place for your kicksliders. Also I don't know why you changed the spacing for 00:39:018 (3,4,5,6,1) - .
  3. 03:35:000 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - This is something I talked with BOUYAAA. You did this part with only 3 objects patterns, but if you try to emphasis vocal here, it doesn't work since it works on a tempo of 4 beats + a silent one. So spacing like 03:35:402 (1,2) - are just overdone jumps who don't fit the song as intended.

Also take a look on some of Stjpa suggestions, and some of these makes sense and should be adressed correctly imo.
Winnie
I feel its always the same people who come on in and give their critique after a map is qualified. 95% of the time its the same people the other 5% like myself just sit and laugh as the argument unfold. I would love to help but I'm shit garbage and useless to anyone. Then again I do spent 2 hours a day reading a lot of mods for fun anyways. GL friends :)
defiance
You know I think it's common sense that you should be a bit respectful during modding and respect people opinions. Even if you don't agree with them. The language used recently kind of makes me lose hope on how modding is supposed to help people improve their maps now and later. Now it seems people are taking offense to them. Even if the person just wants to argue, you should still be respectful.

Yeah, drama is interesting to look at and nice to discuss your opinions on it. This. This is too far.

At least have some decency, this is a circle clicking game, not real life.
xLolicore-
I don't think Raikozen's attitude would help in ranking stuff, but I do wish your mapset the best Kroytz :/
Topic Starter
Kroytz
I'd like to know who deleted my response to Naxess - I don't think what I said was out of line and if they were I apologize but I was only trying to reason for some things pertaining to Raikozen's diff since it seems like all this attention is only welcoming a hate train. (I can see why the post deletion for Raikozen but honestly I've seen worse threads with worse responses slide through).

The post deletions also make it feel like our opinions/statements are unwelcomed here so it's a bit unfair and disheartening to see that happen to the creators. It's almost like we're not even given a chance to address the concerns of others.
pkhg
avoid bad words
Arusamour
one thing for sure: raikozen said too much. swearing to that extent was a little silly, i must say.

second thing for sure: i am puzzled as to how many of you guys are so stumped on his over-reaction and not the content. he's trying to provide information, yet you boys create ruckus like children and then deem it drama. also, "like children"? oh wait, many of you guys are full-grown adults... haha never mind that.

arguments strive interesting conversations but i can't say that was one. If you can't provide valuable points, stop adding nonsense to the equation.

fuck fuck dick wank.
Irreversible
Loctav
Heads up: If I see a single insult from anybody that is involved in mapping this mapset, I'll just nuke it and you can carry this discussion to the grave.
If I see a single BN getting rude again, I'll just throw them out.
Discuss reasonable, stay on topic, stay on the matter, basically read this red text Irre posted and stop behaving like you just graduated from your local kindergarten. Thank you very much.

@-himei if you dont know how the modding process work, please get lost or discuss that somewhere else. Just because it is not breaking the RC doesnt mean that no debate about the matter is permitted or that stuff still can't be wrong. And apparantly someone nailed something on your forehead, because this is like the 9023490390349509305935902123843298th time that someone told you this and you are still too dense to get it. Can you just quit it altogether and stop teaching people about an ecosystem that you clearly never understood yourself? On a second note, you can discuss your displease about how the modding ecosystem works in its own thread, not in map threads that are only reserved for discussions about the map self. If you fail to abide that, we will have to make sure that you simply never post in this threads again - ever.
Stjpa
Just to clear things up from my side: I never intended to come off passive-aggressive in my mods so if they did I'm sorry for that, I know what stuff was rather rude so I learned from that as well

However most of my concerns still stand, so we will see if things will get solved on the normal way or not. If Raikozen prefers Kroytz to handle all that I'm open for a discussion via Discord

Also, I can still do a full mod instead of only discussing the "bigger concerns" just in case you want it
Shiirn
Attacks and dissenting opinions towards a map are not necessarily personal attacks on the mapper. This is something everyone should try to remember, as it's very easy to feel as if your opinions are being disregarded when presented with conflicting ones.

Your maps are not you. They are not an extension of you, no matter what you may feel on the matter. They are something that are created, and once ranked have officially "grown up" - they're no longer under your control. Ranking a map is by definition ceasing all development and putting out a final, unchangeable copy. You'd best be ready for that.

Maps do not have feelings. Mappers do. People get pissed off when they feel their opinion is being disregarded, or when they feel people aren't giving them the respect "they deserve" by implying, or in many cases, outright saying, that they feel the mapper did something incorrectly.

The main conflicts people are bringing up with this map proper are based on what constitutes "proper representation of the song". The biggest nail of discord there is that the song itself is extremely messed up and hard to follow. As such, different levels of experience in music, listening, or even possibly physical gear (headphones, speakers, etc) can be causing massive changes in what each person hears in this track.


This is why I went to so much effort to point out how horrible this track was - not the map, not the mappers, the song itself. A song that has this much conflict over what even constitutes the basic rhythms and melodies really shouldn't have a difficulty over 6.5*. And that's being generous.
Mun

Shiirn wrote:

Your maps are not you.
Pira

Mun wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Your maps are not you.
So I'm not shit woot
Ascendance

pkhg wrote:

avoid bad words
allein
please enjoy game
xtrem3x
A little observation ...

> p/5872808
> p/5876534

Kudosu during Qualified (excent of kudosu) ??

And a personal opinion on Raikozen beatmap (I know it's not worth much because I'm a taiko player) but I see it too excessive even to think that cookiezi can pass it in S, those jumps are very wide.
Okoratu
Hi, after looking through all the points brought up about raikozen's diff there are quite a lot of logical arguments that should be discussed properly so I'm pulling this out of qualified for the time being.

Make sure to go over all mod posts again as they contains a lot places where the map simplifies the song for little to no reason
Anxient
idk which ones has been responded to, and which ones hasnt been responded to, so heres every mod post that has touched this forum thread post-ranking.


good luck kroytz and co.!
Topic Starter
Kroytz
Mm most have been responded to before, but the posts got deleted. Not sure what's gonna happen here but uh... we'll see I guess.
idke
raikozens diff is ok leave it alone just let me farm my 700pp already
hi-mei

Loctav wrote:

@-himei if you dont know how the modding process work, please get lost or discuss that somewhere else. Just because it is not breaking the RC doesnt mean that no debate about the matter is permitted or that stuff still can't be wrong. And apparantly someone nailed something on your forehead, because this is like the 9023490390349509305935902123843298th time that someone told you this and you are still too dense to get it. Can you just quit it altogether and stop teaching people about an ecosystem that you clearly never understood yourself? On a second note, you can discuss your displease about how the modding ecosystem works in its own thread, not in map threads that are only reserved for discussions about the map self. If you fail to abide that, we will have to make sure that you simply never post in this threads again - ever.
Im sorry.
You probably dont know what is going on here, aside from the discussion about the map in question. Check your email.


Shiirn wrote:

Attacks and dissenting opinions towards a map are not necessarily personal attacks on the mapper. This is something everyone should try to remember, as it's very easy to feel as if your opinions are being disregarded when presented with conflicting ones.

Your maps are not you. They are not an extension of you, no matter what you may feel on the matter. They are something that are created, and once ranked have officially "grown up" - they're no longer under your control. Ranking a map is by definition ceasing all development and putting out a final, unchangeable copy. You'd best be ready for that.

Maps do not have feelings. Mappers do. People get pissed off when they feel their opinion is being disregarded, or when they feel people aren't giving them the respect "they deserve" by implying, or in many cases, outright saying, that they feel the mapper did something incorrectly.

The main conflicts people are bringing up with this map proper are based on what constitutes "proper representation of the song". The biggest nail of discord there is that the song itself is extremely messed up and hard to follow. As such, different levels of experience in music, listening, or even possibly physical gear (headphones, speakers, etc) can be causing massive changes in what each person hears in this track.

This is why I went to so much effort to point out how horrible this track was - not the map, not the mappers, the song itself. A song that has this much conflict over what even constitutes the basic rhythms and melodies really shouldn't have a difficulty over 6.5*. And that's being generous.
With the time the map becomes as an embodiment of its mapper's soul's expression. When somebody continuously tries to change it/nuke it, or just inhibit the ranking of it, the whole discussion becomes personal.
You cant deny anything from ^
It is truth for any map and any mapper that got some experience in mapping and the mapping itself for him (you, me, everyone) becomes an
expression of his feelings
that is personal. It is true for eveyone here who stopped mapping to the "beat" after realizing what mapping is in its advanced form.
AshbeII
Someone needs to watch more pishifat videos about jumps

But really can't the jumps be moved on actual beats and the spacings made more acceptable? that's all that people here want and I'm sure you can do that while mantaining your maps identity
Shiirn

-himei wrote:

With the time the map becomes as an embodiment of its mapper's soul's expression. When somebody continuously tries to change it/nuke it, or just inhibit the ranking of it, the whole discussion becomes personal.
You cant deny anything from ^
It is truth for any map and any mapper that got some experience in mapping and the mapping itself for him (you, me, everyone) becomes an
expression of his feelings
that is personal. It is true for eveyone here who stopped mapping to the "beat" after realizing what mapping is in its advanced form.
Modders who hate your maps are not clawing through the fabric of reality to tear at your soul. Your creation is intangible, it cannot be damaged or destroyed unless you let it be.

Just because it's important to you doesn't mean that you need to be a neurotic sociopath to protect it from things that cannot hurt it.

The same applies here. Personal attacks are pointless; attacking the map has purpose as the moment you push your map for ranking you are by your own choice putting it under review by opinions that are not your own. Being able to be objective and logical about your own emotions is literally what "maturity" is about.


If you truly wanted to have a map be a personal bastion of your feelings and soul, you would not try to rank it. They're mutually exclusive.
Sieg
fun and challenging style, don't hurt mapper's spirit please
hi-mei

Shiirn wrote:

Modders who hate your maps are not clawing through the fabric of reality to tear at your soul. Your creation is intangible, it cannot be damaged or destroyed unless you let it be.

Just because it's important to you doesn't mean that you need to be a neurotic sociopath to protect it from things that cannot hurt it.

The same applies here. Personal attacks are pointless; attacking the map has purpose as the moment you push your map for ranking you are by your own choice putting it under review by opinions that are not your own. Being able to be objective and logical about your own emotions is literally what "maturity" is about.


If you truly wanted to have a map be a personal bastion of your feelings and soul, you would not try to rank it. They're mutually exclusive.
You are missing the point that most of us (mappers) are ranking stuff to show everyone our perspective of view of music, and the feeling we are experiencing while listening to the song.
Same applies to you in first place.
and to me as well.
We can not just express all the stuff we are experiencing during the listening to the music in words or something. Mapping is the answer at most points of it, but huh... talking about "when you about to rank your map, get ready for it to be destroyed/modified at parts"
I think theres a borderline for "making things to become personal offense" and "improving the map".
Basically, as we all know here, the more attention map gets, the more opinions people expressing here about it, and the more chances for it to basically die, just because theres no distinct borderline of "what is good/bad", aside from RC/Code of conduct, which are vague at some points.
Which is confusing for mapper, cuz, you never know what is "optional enough" to skip or "bad enough" to change,, because, eventually, the more people comes, the more stuff you must respond to, the higher chance that you wont handle everything alone.
so in conclusion I can say that people here should distinguish the stuff that is bad, optional and their own opinion.
by making mods here, some (or maybe most) of you combining these 3 ^ into 1
which doesnt contribute anything good for mapper, for your reputation and for map itself.
idke
this discussion about mapping is more verbose and pretentious than the memes itself
Seni
mapping is literally the worst thing ever
Seijiro
You can express all the things you want, but ranking something means making it "official content of the game"
If you want to try out stuff do it, but don't pretend to make it for ranking x)

-himei wrote:

theres no distinct borderline of "what is good/bad", aside from RC/Code of conduct, which are vague at some points.
The BNg exists for that purpose. Like it or don't like it you have to pass their opinion and in this case, the community's too.

Is it bad? Ok
Is it optional? We can consider it
It is personal opinion? By all means it is accepted

Now, can you like... focus on the map instead of debating mapping itself here?


-himei wrote:

you never know what is "optional enough" to skip or "bad enough" to change,, because, eventually, the more people comes, the more stuff you must respond to, the higher chance that you wont handle everything alone.
Make a really good map to begin with and people will come praise you instead of complaining :p
If you can't "express" your vision in an easy-to-understand manner then you failed.
It's like... "are people not understanding what I'm saying or is it me who can't explain things?" kind of thing.

Anyway, I believe it is pointless to keep arguing on the meaning of or how people complains
Saileach
Press F to pay respects
Chippy
From my modding queue~~~

-Couldn't find anything wrong, great map! (o u o)b
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