Welcome to the torture chamber, prepare for the worst.

Hype.

-Kamikaze- wrote:

Welcome to the torture chamber, prepare for the worst.

hmph <3

Uh, serious post though: change the no-mod pool's name to be uh... the regular pool or standard pool or something... it's kinda unfair for any situations where strong players who rely on a visual mod to be nullified. You can keep the idea of visual mod being forced FI/FL, but don't remove HD from HD mains too -- otherwise, you're defeating the purpose of excluding it from free mod in the first place.

EDIT: definitely requires more clarification, because of rule 7 in the Wiki

How many players do teams consist of?

mijkolsmith wrote:

How many players do teams consist of?

6, afaik

Unless I'm blind, here's the link to the mappool suggestions thread.

NoMod forces everyone to play NoMod.

This rule is quite pointless, since you can more or less easily create custom visual mods via skinning, and everyone who prefers that will do that if they are forbidden to use Ingame Visual Mods.
So it just makes things unnecessarily complicated and doesn't really add anything to the pool, in my opinion.

Also, I agree with Halogen, the pool names may be a bit confusing.

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

I like.

One thing, why every mappool will have 15maps? It gives too much freedom in picking maps, especially in early stages :/

Tidek wrote:

I like.

One thing, why every mappool will have 15maps? It gives too much freedom in picking maps, especially in early stages :/

But at the end when you reach the Grand Finals you have to play everything in a close situation

juankristal wrote:

Tidek wrote:

I like.

One thing, why every mappool will have 15maps? It gives too much freedom in picking maps, especially in early stages :/

But at the end when you reach the Grand Finals you have to play everything in a close situation

That's not Tidek's point though, having Grand Finals played like that is perfect imo, but his point is that you have too much room to avoid risky picks in early stages

tfw no hd. why you have to hurt me like this :^(

We adjusted the mappool structure. There is no a NoMod and a FreeMod bracket, where FreeMod allows the usage of FadeIn and Flashlight. One player per team must play with one mod on a FreeMod beatmap. NoMod forces everyone to play NoMod.

where FreeMod allows the usage of FadeIn and Flashlight

So, if i understand Hidden and HardRock are not allowed? That's it?

There's no HR pool, so using it would only hurt your team because there are no bonuses. HD stuff seems really strange and I think it needs some more clarification because it seems like the current rules prevent HD players from playing in FreeMod at all and I don't think that's appropriate. I feel like the post that I made is the obvious solution to the problem, though.

#FLmainsmatter

The person who made MWC 2016 4K Wiki wrote:

5. The NoMod bracket will be played with no mods activated.
6. When playing a FreeMod map, at least 1 players of each team must have one mod activated.
----1. The FreeMod bracket will have FreeMod activated. Every individual player can pick Flashlight or FadeIn.
----2. Players can only select one of the mentioned mods.
7. The tiebreaker will be played under FreeMod conditions.
----1. When playing the tiebreaker, no one needs to have a mod activated.

This is broken.
5. There may be a player on a team who cannot play without Flashlight/Fade In/Hidden
6. There also may be a team whose members cannot play with the visual mods
7. Same with number 5

Sometimes, you just dont allow a specific individual to play in certain brackets

and.. the mappool submission?

Halogen- wrote:

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Quoting this because I got backpaged and it's a resolution that works for everyone.

AncuL wrote:

The person who made MWC 2016 4K Wiki wrote:

5. The NoMod bracket will be played with no mods activated.
6. When playing a FreeMod map, at least 1 players of each team must have one mod activated.
----1. The FreeMod bracket will have FreeMod activated. Every individual player can pick Flashlight or FadeIn.
----2. Players can only select one of the mentioned mods.
7. The tiebreaker will be played under FreeMod conditions.
----1. When playing the tiebreaker, no one needs to have a mod activated.

This is broken.
5. There may be a player on a team who cannot play without Flashlight/Fade In/Hidden
6. There also may be a team whose members cannot play with the visual mods
7. Same with number 5

Sometimes, you just dont allow a specific individual to play in certain brackets

and.. the mappool submission?

5. They adjust to nomod or get swapped out
6. Someone has to adjust to FI/FL, HD is not allowed
7. Same with number 5

Just so you know, this is not a tourney testing who can play in the most comfortable settings, freemod bracket is meant to take you out of your comfort zone unless you can adjust to the mods enough to make them your comfort zone. It's all about adaptation and I already see players adapting to the mods full time.

As for the mappool submission, I'm not sure what you mean, but Pope Gadget posted a link to mappool suggestions thread on the first page (it's also stickied in o!m subforum)

this seems like HD players are forced to "give up" using HD and play normally. So, I agree with Halogen- regarding the matter.

Seems like all you need to do to get around the problem (for a team that uses no visual mods) is have a FL main, have them put FL in their skin and then use FL on the FreeMod bracket and take the mod off for NoMod (but the effect is still there through the skin). And why FI but not HD? What about upscroll users where the effect is reversed?

quite a dumb question.
is there anyone are even playing FI ? that mod is even worse than HD imho *except if they make constant vision like FL did, then maybe people will go into that mods

projectc1 wrote:

quite a dumb question.
is there anyone are even playing FI ? that mod is even worse than HD imho *except if they make constant vision like FL did, then maybe people will go into that mods

Tidek, lxlucasxl are the first ones that comes to mind

FI on upscroll does the exact same thing as on downscroll. And why FI? Because FI unlike HD forces you to cut your scroll speed to about 40% just to be able to read it properly. On HD, you're using a scroll speed relatively close to your nomod scroll so it's not that hard to learn it. However FI requires a lot more practice.
Also for the "who even plays FI" question - everyone who has their focus point on the screen (the area where you look at notes) below middle and/or people who play on relatively slow scroll speed. If you have your focus point directly in the middle, FL will be better for you, but if you look lower - FI is the way. I myself prefer FI over FL actually.

projectc1 wrote:

quite a dumb question.
is there anyone are even playing FI ? that mod is even worse than HD imho *except if they make constant vision like FL did, then maybe people will go into that mods

I find FI to be way easier than FL; Kamikaze nailed it in the head about the focus points. I can't perform well with HD either for the same reason why I can't use FL. While FI/FL will affect performance substantially, FI is the far better of the two evils for me.

*triggered*

Halogen- wrote:

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

I second this notion, because unless HD counts as eligible in the FreeMod bracket it's completely unfair for HD mains to be banned from using it in the NoMod bracket.

Halogen- wrote:

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

^ this. Because it's seriously unfair for HD mains that HD is banned.

Halogen- wrote:

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Agree

It's sad. I was initially excited about visual mods, but... it gives preferential treatment to different groups no matter what you do. Why not make slight modifications to pool size and use hard rock and double time pools? You get equal levels of strategy by more accurate/lower level teams picking HR on fast/weakly accurate (or those well versed in LN thanks to score v2!) players and DT allows faster teams to try and overrun them, leaving the "no mod" pool (which should just be free mod, at this point) to depend on well-roundedness, and HR/DT don't affect player preferences at all - they tighten the timing window and increase the base tempo of songs, two things that are not controllable by players.

I dunno - I'm all for trying new things, but it's seeming more and more to be not so receptive by players, and also seeming a bit unfair/arbitrary. Players can emulate various visual mods by modifying their skins in a way to circumvent the usage of mods in the first place (an effective thing to do for those who do not play no-mod) and that only should be a red flag that it might not be a good idea to do in the first place.

Don't tell me that they are trying to use ScoreV2 for this cup so that's why they made the rule of no HD during nomod because it would give extra score. If this is the case then just don't give a score multiplier for HD. Also for people complaining about not being able to use HD because they can't play without it, why not just tweak your skin so you can have a static HD. Problem solved

It was said long time ago that hd/fi/fl wont give score multiplier in score v2

*sigh* feels bad for the "freedom of play" seekers.

Halogen- wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Quoting this because I got backpaged and it's a resolution that works for everyone.

I'll quote this one more time in hopes that it even gets discussion. It seems like all of that complaining was worth very little, because no one seems to care. I don't mind personally since I'm not affected by it, but I'd hope that we're aiming for the most fair experience as possible.

Also, long shot, but quoting something else that was back-paged -- you guys can't expect things to change if you don't lobby for them.

Halogen- wrote:

It's sad. I was initially excited about visual mods, but... it gives preferential treatment to different groups no matter what you do. Why not make slight modifications to pool size and use hard rock and double time pools? You get equal levels of strategy by more accurate/lower level teams picking HR on fast/weakly accurate (or those well versed in LN thanks to score v2!) players and DT allows faster teams to try and overrun them, leaving the "no mod" pool (which should just be free mod, at this point) to depend on well-roundedness, and HR/DT don't affect player preferences at all - they tighten the timing window and increase the base tempo of songs, two things that are not controllable by players.

I dunno - I'm all for trying new things, but it's seeming more and more to be not so receptive by players, and also seeming a bit unfair/arbitrary. Players can emulate various visual mods by modifying their skins in a way to circumvent the usage of mods in the first place (an effective thing to do for those who do not play no-mod) and that only should be a red flag that it might not be a good idea to do in the first place.

We are still debating. Until these debates have no concluded, we are not lobbying or talking about them and stuff stays as it is, until we made a call on them.

Loctav wrote:

We are still debating. Until these debates have no concluded, we are not lobbying or talking about them and stuff stays as it is, until we made a call on them.

Sounds good. As long as there's some sort of actual discussion going on, then I'm fine with that. It's just been nothing but radio silence in the thread from both staff (who are advocating the change) and users (who are against it but don't want to say why/continue to try and convince people!?).

Halogen- wrote:

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Quoting this because I got backpaged and it's a resolution that works for everyone.

Almost every top player of their respective country is a no mod, hidden main players are not to many and the overall performance of all the players even the ET's will be lowered in the freemod bracket or no mod respectively, while this is for getting players out of their comfort zone, I still find banning hidden pointless, has an example how many hidden main players are in USA that could be chosen to participate?

Halogen- wrote:

It's sad. I was initially excited about visual mods, but... it gives preferential treatment to different groups no matter what you do. Why not make slight modifications to pool size and use hard rock and double time pools? You get equal levels of strategy by more accurate/lower level teams picking HR on fast/weakly accurate (or those well versed in LN thanks to score v2!) players and DT allows faster teams to try and overrun them, leaving the "no mod" pool (which should just be free mod, at this point) to depend on well-roundedness, and HR/DT don't affect player preferences at all - they tighten the timing window and increase the base tempo of songs, two things that are not controllable by players.

I dunno - I'm all for trying new things, but it's seeming more and more to be not so receptive by players, and also seeming a bit unfair/arbitrary. Players can emulate various visual mods by modifying their skins in a way to circumvent the usage of mods in the first place (an effective thing to do for those who do not play no-mod) and that only should be a red flag that it might not be a good idea to do in the first place.

HR/DT pool would be really good, it would make the matches completly different and fun.

Overall this are the most solid suggestions and their fair to no mod players and specific mode ones not like the actual rules, but well thats my opinion.

FL giving a multiplier but FI not giving a multiplier doesn't make any sense.

So what does each mod do, assuming that the combo does not affect how much of the screen is covered (this can be done through skinning or whatever):
- Hidden covers a major portion of the screen (60-70%?) - from the middle to the bottom of the screen (for downscroll), but since the focus point on Hidden (top of the screen) would be so far away from the receptors and that HD will never have a chance to cover that focus point, you can afford to have the same speedmod as you would on NoMod. Most players focus on the middle/middle-upper part of the screen as well, so there isn't going to be too much of a difference involved. I don't use HD, but from what I've seen the main purpose of it is to filter out any unnecessary noise outside of their focal point - making it easier to focus on speed charts. Timing performance aside (which becomes insignificant post-Round of 16), there is little effect in performance due to the screen cover from the middle to the bottom.

- FadeIn covers the same amount of space as Hidden, but in the opposite direction - from the middle to the top of the screen (for downscroll). The thing about FadeIn however, is that since your focal point would be so close to the receptors, there is very little time to react between what you see and what you will hit. This is the opposite for Hidden - players are given a certain amount of time to process a certain pattern before they actually have to hit the pattern. In order to solve for the FadeIn problem, you will have to reduce your speedmod to the point to ensure that you have enough time to process patterns before hitting them. The speedmod reduction is drastic - the average reduction is about 50%. It might not sound like much on paper, but considering that the readability (i.e. how you easily you can process patterns due to more noticeable spaces in high speeds) of a speedmod has essentially an anti-exponential function (i.e. as you use a higher speedmod, given that you are comfortable with it, the benefits in readability will diminish as the change in speed occurs at a higher base speed) - it's a major deficit. Also worth pointing out that readability affects both accuracy and speed ability.

- Flashlight is a hybrid between the two. It covers a portion of the screen from the middle to the top, albeit noticeably less than FadeIn. Regardless, a noticeable fraction of the non-covered portion of the screen will also be covered. Due to the lower focal point (and in turn is closer to the receptors), for the same reasoning above, will require a lower speedmod. You won't require that much of a drop compared to FadeIn, but it's certainly there. You'd essentially be using a low speedmod Hidden mod. Considering that HD in itself doesn't create much negative effect outside of timing, you can deduce that the low speedmod is likely what is causing the deficit in performance.

Since:
- Players can use Hidden with the same speedmod
- Players who use Hidden generally have timing issues due to heavier reliance on aural cues rather than visual
- Flashlight covers less space from the middle to the top than FadeIn
- The closer your focal point is the lower your speedmod
- Lower speedmods create significantly worse performance - both accuracy-wise and speed-wise

You can deduce that:
- You have to use a lower speedmod on FadeIn than on Flashlight.
- Due to the much lower speedmod on FI, FadeIn players perform worse overall than on FL, except for arguably timing due to the Hidden-esque lane cover, but the lower speedmod on FI will be the bigger cause in accuracy deficits in the first place.

Therefore it wouldn't make sense for FI to not have a bonus but FL does.

There are other ways of showing that FI is of equal difficulty (if not moreso) than FL, but that's besides the point. The point is that FL is given a multiplier either for a factor that is not felt by the player (and thus not being representative of human gameplay) or FI is not given a multiplier due to fallacious reasoning (or at least, reasoning that does not resonate with a player's perspective of gameplay).

I'm assuming that the main reason why FI is disallowed is because you can cover up the screen to the point where you won't be able to see the progressive lane cover as your combo goes up. With that logic, you are saying that a stationary lane cover from middle to top is irrelevant - regardless of how much of the screen is covered (this isn't true but that's besides the point, just assume that it's true at first). Assuming that, considering that the performance of nomod players using HD is miniscule and if not better for speed charts and a slight deterioration in performance for accuracy, it will not make sense for it to give any additional bonus - especially if the purpose of the scoring system is to accurately measure the performance of a player. By allowing FL to have a 1.1x mutliplier and FI to have a 1.0x multiplier, you would be incorrectly assessing the ability of a player - because a 97% score with FL and a 97% score with FI, is comparable - the latter is arguably better, even - for reasons stated above. It would make sense for FI/FL to have the same multiplier, however.

Considering that the goal of the FreeMod pool is to ensure that players are leaving their comfort zone, letting FL have a superior multiplier to FI is counterproductive - FI has (debatably) more adverse effects and FL is also a more common mod that people use.


Side note, what Halogen- has said about Hidden is absolutely correct and a ban on HD entirely is ultimately more of a way of forcing people to jump through hoops (getting a hidden skin) for something that has little significance on players post-Round of 16.

I am mad some players are not gonna join this years MWC, some people i looked forward to is not gonna end up playing this year due to bad relationships with other team members, i wish i could just encourage them to play without giving a fuck honestly. But alas there are some who did bad things to get banned from playing MWC altogether so this year i'm not sure if it's gonna be enjoyable for me. Well, you have the US/BR team so i guess i can look up for that, but those teams are probably gonna be the only good matches throughout the entire Cup. in anycase, good luck to the teams this year and hope you would perform your best!

Shoegazer wrote:

FL giving a multiplier but FI not giving a multiplier doesn't make any sense.

So what does each mod do, assuming that the combo does not affect how much of the screen is covered (this can be done through skinning or whatever):
- Hidden covers a major portion of the screen (60-70%?) - from the middle to the bottom of the screen (for downscroll), but since the focus point on Hidden (top of the screen) would be so far away from the receptors and that HD will never have a chance to cover that focus point, you can afford to have the same speedmod as you would on NoMod. Most players focus on the middle/middle-upper part of the screen as well, so there isn't going to be too much of a difference involved. I don't use HD, but from what I've seen the main purpose of it is to filter out any unnecessary noise outside of their focal point - making it easier to focus on speed charts. Timing performance aside (which becomes insignificant post-Round of 16), there is little effect in performance due to the screen cover from the middle to the bottom.

- FadeIn covers the same amount of space as Hidden, but in the opposite direction - from the middle to the top of the screen (for downscroll). The thing about FadeIn however, is that since your focal point would be so close to the receptors, there is very little time to react between what you see and what you will hit. This is the opposite for Hidden - players are given a certain amount of time to process a certain pattern before they actually have to hit the pattern. In order to solve for the FadeIn problem, you will have to reduce your speedmod to the point to ensure that you have enough time to process patterns before hitting them. The speedmod reduction is drastic - the average reduction is about 50%. It might not sound like much on paper, but considering that the readability (i.e. how you easily you can process patterns due to more noticeable spaces in high speeds) of a speedmod has essentially an anti-exponential function (i.e. as you use a higher speedmod, given that you are comfortable with it, the benefits in readability will diminish as the change in speed occurs at a higher base speed) - it's a major deficit. Also worth pointing out that readability affects both accuracy and speed ability.

- Flashlight is a hybrid between the two. It covers a portion of the screen from the middle to the top, albeit noticeably less than FadeIn. Regardless, a noticeable fraction of the non-covered portion of the screen will also be covered. Due to the lower focal point (and in turn is closer to the receptors), for the same reasoning above, will require a lower speedmod. You won't require that much of a drop compared to FadeIn, but it's certainly there. You'd essentially be using a low speedmod Hidden mod. Considering that HD in itself doesn't create much negative effect outside of timing, you can deduce that the low speedmod is likely what is causing the deficit in performance.

Since:
- Players can use Hidden with the same speedmod
- Players who use Hidden generally have timing issues due to heavier reliance on aural cues rather than visual
- Flashlight covers less space from the middle to the top than FadeIn
- The closer your focal point is the lower your speedmod
- Lower speedmods create significantly worse performance - both accuracy-wise and speed-wise

You can deduce that:
- You have to use a lower speedmod on FadeIn than on Flashlight.
- Due to the much lower speedmod on FI, FadeIn players perform worse overall than on FL, except for arguably timing due to the Hidden-esque lane cover, but the lower speedmod on FI will be the bigger cause in accuracy deficits in the first place.

Therefore it wouldn't make sense for FI to not have a bonus but FL does.

There are other ways of showing that FI is of equal difficulty (if not moreso) than FL, but that's besides the point. The point is that FL is given a multiplier either for a factor that is not felt by the player (and thus not being representative of human gameplay) or FI is not given a multiplier due to fallacious reasoning (or at least, reasoning that does not resonate with a player's perspective of gameplay).

I'm assuming that the main reason why FI is disallowed is because you can cover up the screen to the point where you won't be able to see the progressive lane cover as your combo goes up. With that logic, you are saying that a stationary lane cover from middle to top is irrelevant - regardless of how much of the screen is covered (this isn't true but that's besides the point, just assume that it's true at first). Assuming that, considering that the performance of nomod players using HD is miniscule and if not better for speed charts and a slight deterioration in performance for accuracy, it will not make sense for it to give any additional bonus - especially if the purpose of the scoring system is to accurately measure the performance of a player. By allowing FL to have a 1.1x mutliplier and FI to have a 1.0x multiplier, you would be incorrectly assessing the ability of a player - because a 97% score with FL and a 97% score with FI, is comparable - the latter is arguably better, even - for reasons stated above. It would make sense for FI/FL to have the same multiplier, however.

Considering that the goal of the FreeMod pool is to ensure that players are leaving their comfort zone, letting FL have a superior multiplier to FI is counterproductive - FI has (debatably) more adverse effects and FL is also a more common mod that people use.

thoughts on the magnitude of the 1.1x multiplier which might not be true

I don't really agree with FL giving a 1.1x multiplier either, specifically the magnitude of the multiplier. I think it would be better as 1.05x or so, my main line of argument is the fact that a team with a player who predominantly plays FL would destroy any team with a player who does not have an FL main. This is more of a concern with Group Stages however, as there is a noticeable skill cap with FL/FI mains (which can be explained but is beyond the scope of this post), and that the benefits of having an FL main would be most noticeable in Round of 16 or Round of 8. A FL main will obliterate a song in Group Stages, accumulating a 98,000-99,500 point lead - and the FL player who isn't an FL main would get about 95,000-97,000, which could potentially make or break a round considering that the differences between combined scores between two strong teams is rather miniscule. Add on to the fact that there are 4 FreeMod charts out of 15 (something that will not be changed), I feel that there's just too much emphasis on one player for a gimmick for which a player could potentially have home advantage for me - but I guess if you're trying to emphasise the importance of learning FI/FL then the more power to you.

This is under the assumption that a nomod player, given enough time with FL, will lose about 3%-5% of his score on average. This is probably not the case in practicality, but I'll just bring up the case anyway.

Side note, what Halogen- has said about Hidden is absolutely correct and a ban on HD entirely is ultimately more of a way of forcing people to jump through hoops (getting a hidden skin) for something that has little significance on players post-Round of 16.

I'm a flashlight player. As much as I see this as a easy way to win I also see it as a unfair reason to win. I disagree with the score multiplayer like you do. I believe there should be no score multiplayer for any mods in Mania.

Every FL player I know disagrees with the idea of a FL multiplier.

I clearly said that we are still debating about making rule changes. I see no point in you guys making assumptions and debates.