osu!mania ScoreV2 live!

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abraker

Full Tablet wrote:

What do you mean by combo mod? What would it do?
He means to have options on which scoring method to use. The combo mod in this sense would use the combo based scoring.
Full Tablet

abraker wrote:

Full Tablet wrote:

What do you mean by combo mod? What would it do?
He means to have options on which scoring method to use. The combo mod in this sense would use the combo based scoring.
In that case, wouldn't it better if both scoring methods were calculated simultaneously for each play, and both values are recorded in the play? In leaderboards, people would have an option to sort by combo scoring or accuracy score.

Accuracy score should be the main value used for the rest of the performance and ranking system (as long there is only one ranking based on the one-dimensional pp value of each player), since the count of the judgments is a more reliable statistic to base inferences about the skill of a player, compared to the length of string of non-misses (mixing both by adding two different formulas together doesn't make it better than a pure accuracy-based formula either, the quality of the formula used for overall score increases the lower the weight of the combo portion of it is).

That said, basing the accuracy score on the current Accuracy Percentage formula is not good either. Accuracy Percentage underweights the importance of Rainbows over regular 300s, and overweights the importance of 200s over 100s/50s/Misses.
-Squishy

Full Tablet wrote:

Accuracy score should be the main value used for the rest of the performance and ranking system (as long there is only one ranking based on the one-dimensional pp value of each player), since the count of the judgments is a more reliable statistic to base inferences about the skill of a player, compared to the length of string of non-misses (mixing both by adding two different formulas together doesn't make it better than a pure accuracy-based formula either, the quality of the formula used for overall score increases the lower the weight of the combo portion of it is).
"Skill" isn't all about accuracy. Although most people agree it should be the largest factor, players have a variety of other skills which some focus more than others and that should deserve some acknowledgement in their score. In this case, it would be for players with the speed/finger dexterity to hit those few extra notes in the hardest part of a map to keep their full combo compared to accuracy players who will skim through that section and perfect everything else on the map.
Full Tablet

Squishykorean wrote:

"Skill" isn't all about accuracy. Although most people agree it should be the largest factor, players have a variety of other skills which some focus more than others and that should deserve some acknowledgement in their score. In this case, it would be for players with the speed/finger dexterity to hit those few extra notes in the hardest part of a map to keep their full combo compared to accuracy players who will skim through that section and perfect everything else on the map.
The thing is, combo is not a good way to measure the aspect of skill you mention either.

For measuring the ability of being able to hit hard notes without missing, miss count is a better statistic than a score based on combo.

If you want to isolate speed/dexterity skill from overall accuracy skill, ideally, you should be able to calculate 2 different scores for each aspect of skill, and have two different leaderboards and rankings for the same plays.
juankristal
So yeah, accuracy is the main value in both score v1 and v2. Combo is important as your score drops if you miss, whats the point of having a "combo mod" then? I dont really get it.

If you are good at doing combos but your acc is really bad why should you win against a good accuracy with some missees? Into a level where everyone misses then yeah, sure, but adding the combo mod wont change stuff imo.
Kempie

Squishykorean wrote:

Full Tablet wrote:

...
"Skill" isn't all about accuracy. Although most people agree it should be the largest factor, players have a variety of other skills which some focus more than others and that should deserve some acknowledgement in their score. In this case, it would be for players with the speed/finger dexterity to hit those few extra notes in the hardest part of a map to keep their full combo compared to accuracy players who will skim through that section and perfect everything else on the map.
What you (and I) want is better achieved by increasing the significance of a single miss. Accuracy players will be harshly (but fairly) punished for missing, and speed/dexterity players still stand a chance with their lower accuracy and higher combos. If ScoreV2 were to drop the combo component and go this route, we would have a scoring system that...:
  1. still rewards players for keeping their combo.
  2. treats x consequent misses the same as x isolated misses (ScoreV2 punishes isolated misses more severely)
  3. cannot produce broken scores where similar performances have unexplainable differences, because relatively more 200s were attained at <400 combo.
  4. can be significantly simpler to understand and implement.


This isn't some magical fairlytale. I've mentioned MIGS scoring several times in this thread, which achieves exactly this without combo.
Ayaya

Kempie wrote:

If ScoreV2 were to drop the combo component and go this route, we would have a scoring system that...:
  1. rewards players for keeping their combo.
Kempie

Ayaya wrote:

Kempie wrote:

If ScoreV2 were to drop the combo component and go this route, we would have a scoring system that...:
  1. rewards players for keeping their combo.
When all you do is remove the combo component, misses aren't sufficiently punished for, i.e. keeping combo (not missing) isn't as big of a deal as it should be. By making misses more punishing, you are "rewarding" (more like not punishing) players that do not miss, and thus keep their combo.

It sounds confusing because it's sort off tackling the same problem in the exact opposite way. You're not actually rewarding players for keeping high combos, you're just upping the punishment of misses. Fewer misses generally equal higher combo, with edge cases like FC'ing a song and then missing the last 5 notes being an exception to that rule. Unsurprisingly, these edge cases also produce funny scores in ScoreV1/V2, but not in MIGS scoring for example.
Ayaya
I knew what you meant but you just worded that part weird, also I just wanted to use that jpeg :)
-Squishy
Yes I would agree punishing misses more harshly would solve much of the problem. The only thing that might make this slightly unattractive is the fact someone might mess up and cause a chain of misses even though they are hitting the notes correctly. The current combo multiplier doesn't punish as hard when this happens because as long as you recover and don't miss later, you are still given a chance at getting a decent score despite a tiny screw up that the game mechanics happened to snowball on.
Would you reward a player that missed 5 notes spread out throughout the map equally to a player who hit a chord wrong and missed 5 consecutive notes together?
This is purely opinion based but what this seems to be turning into is another stepmania scoring system and with lots of players here coming from that game, it would only be natural to lean towards their scoring system.
Yuudachi-kun

Squishykorean wrote:

This is purely opinion based but what this seems to be turning into is another stepmania scoring system and with lots of players here coming from that game, it would only be natural to lean towards their scoring system.
So you should cater to the people migrating rather than having them adapt or leave like they should?
Shoegazer

Squishykorean wrote:

Yes I would agree punishing misses more harshly would solve much of the problem. The only thing that might make this slightly unattractive is the fact someone might mess up and cause a chain of misses even though they are hitting the notes correctly. The current combo multiplier doesn't punish as hard when this happens because as long as you recover and don't miss later, you are still given a chance at getting a decent score despite a tiny screw up that the game mechanics happened to snowball on.
Would you reward a player that missed 5 notes spread out throughout the map equally to a player who hit a chord wrong and missed 5 consecutive notes together?
This is purely opinion based but what this seems to be turning into is another stepmania scoring system and with lots of players here coming from that game, it would only be natural to lean towards their scoring system.
Getting a chain of misses in isolation is an extremely rare scenario. In hard sections particularly, it is complemented with 100s and 50s, which is the major proportion of the penalty of a general CB rush/bad judgement rush. It's not misses that are particularly penalising despite the slightly higher penalty per judgement, since they happen less frequently than 50s/100s. A CB rush will almost always punish a player far more than misses in isolation, not necessarily because of the combo multiplier, but because of the accuracy component.

The main ways you can get a massive amount of misses and only misses is if you're very negligent in an easy section (misreads), minor misreads in hard sections (which are generally penalised less anyway) or if you're hitting extremely conservatively in hard sections. Being negligent in an easy section is usually minor (1-2 misses), it's very very rare to actually early miss a massive chord in the first place anyway. And even then, that's an extreme edge case - and an extremely rare scenario that is rarely replicated in normal gameplay and can be discarded as an anomaly in gameplay.

Combo multiplier has the issue of not being able to discriminate between 5 misses spread out in easy sections and 5 misses in a hard section, definitely, but so do misses. Having a combo multiplier is just increasing the magnitude of that source of error. This is ultimately why people don't think combo multiplier is a good idea - it's an unnecessary metric that adds nothing if the game itself does not promote the idea of "perfection". osu!mania does not promote perfection. Otherwise, the PP system would favour more towards 1mil scores rather than 700-850K scores, SR would look at only the hardest part of the chart (it technically does this already if the hard section is long enough, but it doesn't address super short spikes completely well), and non-300 judgements would be far far more punishing.
Kempie
Since there's not much left to discuss about ScoreV2, I'll just post this interesting MWC match to remind the devs on the severity of MAX's being underrated:



Other scores left out for brevity.
Yuudachi-kun
Maybe the 1xgood was too bad for halogen
Halogen-
It's pretty telling that we know how harsh it is given we've also seen what the difference is with individual 300 judgments -- the fact that I got 164 less 300s but only had a single 200 and lost by 350 points when our scores were that high is very telling: 300s are not weighted enough, or judgments beneath that are weighted too heavily (or a combination of the two)...
Bobbias
Yeah, holy crap, that should not happen. If the ratio was closer I could see guil edging that out, but with that much difference in 300's that's pretty insane.
Daikyi
essentially, the mechanic of score in the end should be an indicator of which spread of judgements took more skill to hit

in the example of halogen vs. guilhermeziat, i think pretty much anyone can glance at those judgement spreads and say one is better than the other.
that's not being shown in the actual score however.
Jinjin
today's match between Japan and Brazil (and a lot of other matches throughout this tourney featuring dense LN maps) shows how ridiculously difficult the HP penalty is for LN maps. Please take this into consideration and rebalance HP losses and gains on long notes for the future.
Ciel
ScoreV2 in retrospect (similar to my previous long post, you can just read the bolded parts if you can't be assed):

First things first. While some of these issues were pointed out before MWC started, there also wasn't that much time to actually go about fixing these changes. That doesn't mean I'm going to repost these issues here however. Also, I am mostly going to be reposting issues discovered, along with a few other of my own comments, so this will largely be a post combining info.

300g's and 300's


One of the major issues found, especially pertaining to high level play, comes from the fact that the accuracy component did not differentiate between 300g's and 300's. This resulted in the weights of the non-perfect judgements counting for far more than they should have, as the only advantage a 300g had was in the combo portion of the score, which was typically extremely small. In a previous post, Shoegazer suggested how we could let 300g's be weighted as a 305 in the accuracy portion of the score. (Smaller than scorev1 due to the exponential vs. linear nature of this portion of the score). A naive implementation of this, however, would make SS's pretty much non-existent, which I am not sure is good for the overall state of the game (as getting rid of an entire grade seems like a bad idea). When MWC 7k rolls around next year and people start actually caring about this again, it would be a good idea to start by testing out this change, especially as it significantly affects score in the earlier stages of a tournament.

LNs


At the time of my previous post, I mentioned how the ending window of LNs should be loosened a bit. As it turns out, there was never any extra leniency for releases in the first place, and for the most part, it now looks pretty fine. Overall, it is still more difficult to get good accuracy on LNs like before, but that is fine.

However, LNs still run into 2 problems. First of all, the HP drain rate (and health mechanics related to LNs) are generally fucked. This is due to a couple of reasons:
  1. In Scorev1, simply holding an LN wouuld give you a small increase in HP every combo tick. This originally was not present in v2, but this was apparently fixed by smoogi before the tournament. I suspect then, that the main reason for the HP drain being fucked comes from the next point.
  2. While each normal note can only be "missed" once, you can actually miss a LN up to 3 times. The points where you can miss are namely: the LN start, the LN end, and releasing a held LN (resulting in a HoldBreak or whatever, can't be assed to search it up). In addition, if you don't have the LN start, or break the hold, you automatically reduce the highest judgement for the LN end to 50, hampering HP gain even more. Compare this to Scorev1, where you could only miss twice (one of the contributing reasons to why LN maps are harder to maintain HP in as well).


In addition, due to the fact that that LN's have 2 judgments of equal weight to a normal note, it is also possible that LN's may be overweighted compared to normal notes. The actual balance for fixing these changes however, will have to wait for another time when everyone begins complaining about scorev2 again.

The Combo Portion


To be perfectly honest, this barely mattered at all during the tournament, as for the most part, the player/team with the better accuracy won. Other than the fact that the notes at the beginning of the song are weighted less than notes after the 400th notes, which can most certainly be fixed in the future, there is not really enough enough experimental evidence, especially with scores that aren't this high, in order to see what effect this really has. This probably has to be put off for a more large scale test in the future, especially considering outliers that have good acc/bad combo, and those that have bad acc/good combo.
InabaYap
Not sure if I understand this correctly, but if I do,

300g has been hit in two ways in scorev2:
1. Not playing a role anymore in multipliers.
The main difference between 300g and 300 other than HitValue was the HitBonus allowing more accurate players to more quickly make up for the score deficit after a mistake. The removal of HitPunishment and HitBonus means there's no difference in the following notes. Your combo multiplier increases the same way whether you get a 200, 300 or 300g. Literally there's a 1/16 raw score difference on a single note between the two judgments, which is in turn affected by:

(as mentioned multiple times)
2. Being confined in the combo portion of scoring.
80% of the score AND the multiplier (the main point!) of the remaining 20% portion have nothing to do with your 300g ratio. This results in a pathetic actual difference between the two judgments, and players with no actual sense of rhythm get scores like this: (forgot mp link, but the others had about 3:1 300g ratio give or take)


hue

Personally I agree with the 300g -> 305 idea, and to preserve the practicality of grades may I dare suggest the ridiculous idea of having TWO accuracy calculated: a displayed accuracy and an actual accuracy. The displayed accuracy does not differentiate between 300g's and 300's while the actual accuracy used in the scoring does. This is kind of like scorev1 though.
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