osu!mania ScoreV2 live!

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Jole
The fix that fixed LN misses does not seem to have made its way to the beta build. A fix before the tournament would be much appreciated
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
The fix will propagate all the way to Stable (latest) by Friday in time for MWC. Please use Cutting Edge until then.

Edit: It's been propagated back to Beta now.
Jole

smoogipooo wrote:

The fix will propagate all the way to Stable (latest) by Friday in time for MWC. Please use Cutting Edge until then.

Edit: It's been propagated back to Beta now.
Thank you. The main issue was that it was only available for supporters
FelipeLink
Hello, so i noticed a super major issue on scorev2 related to LNS (I'm using beta btw)

Even with this new update about the ''hold gives hp'' this is mere nothing, like i didnt feel nothing.

Its hard to talk about this, but like on score v1, a map with HP 9, if you KEEP missing and hitting your hp will be like dropping a little and recovering FAST.

On scorev2 a map on HP 8.5, if you keep missing and hitting or even missing a little and start combo'ing the DRAIN is pretty big and the recovery is super small.
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5756787 - score v2
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5756802 - score v1
i even stopped played for like 2secs on v1 and still got my hp to recover in like 1~2secs, on v2 if i rush any ln pattern my hp will be drained so much and the recovery is super small i cant even reach max hp, score v1 replay ~ http://puu.sh/qo0SF/86fb41302b.osr (score v2 replay is lost, my osu! didnt saved idk why)

so please take a look again on LN HP Drain, and LN HP Recovery.
Thanks

i dont consider me a good LN player, but all players who knows me always tell me i'm a good LN player, so well you should at least read my opnion.
here some scores that maybe be a proof about my ln skills
- https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5756872
- https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5756878
- http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5756892
- https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5756897
- https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5756900
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
@FelipeLink: Have you tried making a simple map of few notes and testing? I have and the HP looks almost exactly the same. The difference is that LNs have two judgements now instead of one, so the punishment is doubled for missing a complete LN. It is also slightly harder to achieve perfect scoring on LNs due to both the reduced leniency of LNs and that they have two judgements.

All according to plan in my opinion?
juankristal

smoogipooo wrote:

@FelipeLink: Have you tried making a simple map of few notes and testing? I have and the HP looks almost exactly the same. The difference is that LNs have two judgements now instead of one, so the punishment is doubled for missing a complete LN. It is also slightly harder to achieve perfect scoring on LNs due to both the reduced leniency of LNs and that they have two judgements.

All according to plan in my opinion?
Pretty sure he might tested that in stable while the change was only in cutting edge implemented. Not sure tho
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Nah he specifically stated beta.
Shoegazer

smoogipooo wrote:

@FelipeLink: Have you tried making a simple map of few notes and testing? I have and the HP looks almost exactly the same. The difference is that LNs have two judgements now instead of one, so the punishment is doubled for missing a complete LN. It is also slightly harder to achieve perfect scoring on LNs due to both the reduced leniency of LNs and that they have two judgements.

All according to plan in my opinion?
I believe his main concern was the fact that the HP recovery while holding on to LNs in v1 was far more lenient than what it currently is in v2.

Its hard to talk about this, but like on score v1, a map with HP 9, if you KEEP missing and hitting your hp will be like dropping a little and recovering FAST.

On scorev2 a map on HP 8.5, if you keep missing and hitting or even missing a little and start combo'ing the DRAIN is pretty big and the recovery is super small. i even stopped played for like 2secs on v1 and still got my hp to recover in like 1~2secs, on v2 if i rush any ln pattern my hp will be drained so much and the recovery is super small i cant even reach max hp
From what he told me, the HP drain of LNs in v2 was reasonable, he was talking about the HP recovery itself that is too harsh (regenerates too slowly) and causes him to fail much more easily than on v1. Maybe that's intended?


Also reposting this I guess, because the overemphasis on 200s is still a major problem and this would fix the problem:

Shoegazer wrote:

Rainbow Accuracy

Shoegazer wrote:

320s are very much underweighted because the only component of the scoring system that takes into account 320 accuracy is the combo component, which only has a 20% prominence. Add on to the fact that the difference between a 300 and 320 is so small and that the absolute difference between juan and Hudo's 320 count isn't that significant, it would make sense that 320s are really underweighted at the moment.

You could mitigate this by including 300gs into accuracy, but from what I've experimented it might create too much emphasis on MAX accuracy with charts that players have issues getting 96%+ on (and as a result would not be an accurate assessment of skill).

Alternatively, you can avoid including MAXes in the accuracy component and just increase the importance of MAXes to like 360 to increase the emphasis of it by a noticeable but not overpowering amount in the combo component, but that requires a bit more experimentation.
I initially wanted to increase the rainbow judgement weightage without embedding rainbows into accuracy, but no matter how much I changed it, the difference is very minor (~600-1,200 points) and a 200 will almost always be too powerful compared to a rainbow 300. So I scrapped that idea and thought that embedding rainbows into accuracy with a reasonable weightage and maybe making the curve more lenient would be the best idea.

I've been experimenting with weightages and discussing with people about how much a 200 should be worth compared to a 300. I initially thought that 310 would be fine (and a 200 would be worth 11 300s), but when it came to matches like this, if accuracy was the only factor, Argentina would win by 21,000 points. I do think that Argentina should win and it's a step in the right direction, but 21,000 seems extremely overwhelming since it undermines the fact that Poland had overall, noticeably less 200s. I tried it with harder charts too and they seem to favour rainbow accuracy a little too much for my liking - especially since when it comes to harder charts (where players struggle with), good rainbow accuracy is usually caused by variance rather than a higher skill level. 200s and worse judgements should determine performance for that.

I wanted to use 307 afterwards, but it still gave a bit too much emphasis for my liking, about 12,500 points for that Argentina/Poland match. I went down to 305, and the difference is about 6,800. I think that's ultimately the most reasonable assessment, and others I've talked to seem to agree with the prenotion that a 200 is about 21 normal 300s. Ignoring the bad judgements (since those values are pretty much set in stone at this point), this is probably (part of) the ideal solution. This does mean that only full rainbow scores are SSs, but I don't see that as a problem as frames of reference can be shifted.

Getting rid of the difference between a rainbow and a normal 300 in the combo scoring component is probably ideal too, since that should be in the accuracy component, not the combo component. If rainbows are included into accuracy, the combo component does not need a rainbow component.

I also wanted to soften the exponential curve a tiny bit when it comes to including rainbows, mainly because at a certain point extremely good accuracy is more caused by variance rather than a very high skill level - unless the performance is consistently done, which is not measurable with just one match and one attempt. The exponential I had in mind was Accuracy^(2 + 2 * Accuracy), but it's essentially Accuracy^4 - so 1 power down.

tl;dr: Embed rainbows into accuracy with a weightage of 305 instead of 320, change the accuracy curve to Accuracy^(2 + Accuracy * 2), remove the differentiation between rainbows and normal 300s in the combo component (both of them should have a HitValue of 30).
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
That's the thing - it isn't any more or less lenient, the code is identical. It's just that there are other factors that cause you to lose more HP in ScoreV2. The actual rate of recovery of HP is unchanged. Perhaps if this starts to matter more in the later rounds I can issue a quick update, but I don't think it's good to make last minute changes until that's determined to be a problem by the map selectors.

And likewise I'm pretty sure it's too late now to improve on the weighting of MAXs. That will definitely be looked into for MWC7K, but probably not for MWC4K unless there are very significant results that show a fix is 100% needed. Let's wait until after the first round!
Kamikaze
Hmm, actually when we played with underjoy on updated v2 he said that hp recovery was too easy and he was playing on HR so no idea
Yuudachi-kun
Am I the only one who thinks it's silly to have a system potentially changed through the tournament (That it'a specifically made for) because of being unfinished?

Unless you redo round1 after a fix if that ever was needed.
Kamikaze
I really don't like the idea of waiting for results of the round where the max:300 aspect matters the most by far, but eh, nothing I can do about it at this point.
Shoegazer
@smoogi: Fair enough on the HP recovery.

Khelly wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks it's silly to have a system potentially changed through the tournament (That it'a specifically made for) because of being unfinished?

Unless you redo round1 after a fix if that ever was needed.
I do agree that having system changes in midst of a tournament is a bit silly, but I do feel that if it's to ensure a more accurate assesment of ability, I don't think it's a problem in itself. The fact that it is unfinished does justify the change.

I would much rather see the change now, especially since group stages is the round where MAX accuracy matters the most, and cases like this and this (lim vs bumpinho) are going to be very common. I don't think the competitors will mind a change in MAX weightage especially since it'd be similar to scorev1 would look like (which makes for easier transitioning) and from what I've talked to with other players, they certainly wouldn't mind having a change in MAX weightage if it meant for a more accurate assessment of ability. The frame of reference of what defines an SS will be malleable, especially since they know that these context of an SS is now situational.

But that's how I see it really, I w ould much rather have short-term discomfort (for a long-term gain) rather than an implementation afterwards when in the stage that matters, it had a noticeable problem for certain facets of the tournament. Ultimately up to you.
FelipeLink
@smoogi:
I made a ''test'' map for trying how LN v1 works vs LN v2 and well i just found that the HP recovery is the same but well the HP drain is kinda a problem, with score v2 LN you can fail twice faster than v1, so well yeah thats the only problem i can find on lnv2, the recovery is not significant because the drain is too big.
And well, on hard LN maps even good skilled players can do rushs and miss like 1~3 lns in a row and on v2 this is like 100% dead and on v1 this isn't a big problem.

Oh and i miss my Hit Lightning, after the new beta update they just disappeared ):
(i talked with some players who use's beta and all of they hit lightning disappeared too)
Ayaya

Shoegazer wrote:

I would much rather see the change now, especially since group stages is the round where MAX accuracy matters the most, and cases like this and this (lim vs bumpinho) are going to be very common. I don't think the competitors will mind a change in MAX weightage especially since it'd be similar to scorev1 would look like (which makes for easier transitioning) and from what I've talked to with other players, they certainly wouldn't mind having a change in MAX weightage if it meant for a more accurate assessment of ability. The frame of reference of what defines an SS will be malleable, especially since they know that these context of an SS is now situational.
I'm going to have to agree with Shoegazer on this. At first when I heard people were talking about how 200s were overemphasis, I thought it wasn't change a lot but when I saw those picture, that is crazy. I'm pretty sure every mania player would want this too be fix because we all know accuracy is key in mania. Just because someone has a rainbow ratio of 11:1 and someone has 4:1, that doesn't mean the person with the 4:1 ratio should win just because he has 1 less 200... (juan vs Hudonom). Need to be fix asap! It's not too late to change this before MWC starts.
Jinjin
What the players above are saying is true. accuracy is CRITICAL in group stages, and this is where the MAX counts really matter. It's much better to slightly give more weight to the MAXs than keep the current system and wait it out.
Halogen-
Matches haven't happened yet. It's not too late to make this change to the score system -- the ratios that players will get on the songs in groups will not change based off of this, but the physical scores and the representation of their abilities well.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
It is too late, the changes are untested, which is especially dangerous since the proposal modifies MAX's value, and there are other things to do to get osu! ready for MWC. Sorry but it's not happening just yet, and won't happen until MWC 7K. I discussed with Loctav and we both agreed the impact as a result of not putting this change through would be unnoticed in most cases.
Halogen-
Droves of people participating in MWC are taking note about how ridiculously impactful non-300 judgments are. We saw lim post a score where the presence of an additional 200 caused them to lose against a person who had 90x more 300s, which is absolute insanity -- this issue was actually brought to light by both map selectors: Kamikaze with the screenshot of a mock match between Poland/Argentina that showed juankristal losing to Hudonom by 18 points when he had less than half of the 300 count but a single 200 added on (and just so this doesn't get looked at the wrong way, it was juankristal's 79 to Hudonom's 177 - we're not talking small values here), and Shoegazer with his very usual, eloquent explanations as to why the formula is flawed.

This has been mentioned for the past few pages, I might add. It hasn't gone unnoticed in the slightest.
numbermaniac
How do the map scoreboards work if most people are playing with ScoreV1 but those with Cutting Edge have V2?
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