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posted
w
posted
Last try at this.

Currently accuracy does make a good metric of how hard the map is. I can tell you straight up what the star rating of a map would be according to my accuracy. I feel the score should reflect that. However, there is a point, around between 986k and 1M scores, where it is more of a matter of consistency. Playing a score for 990K+ often feels like playing standard. A lot of retries and a lot of hope for more MAX. If anything, I think that's where you should focus combo based scoring at (if you are persistent about it).

Instead of the combo portion being dependent on misses, have it be dependent on not have a MAX and adjust so it is worth around 100k out of 1M or whatever most would agree on. That way players who are trying to get a better play have to worry about their overall performance by acc'ing the map like now, and players who are going for the SS and beyond would have to worry more about consistency.

Just don't have the element of luck forced on players unless they are really going for a perfect play. And I do say luck because consistency involves taking the probability that you may fuck up somewhere along the line.
posted
Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Fix osu!mania ScoreV2 LNs not correctly capping to 50 score when the hold starts after the LN start was fully missed.
Why not remove the ability to repress missed LN's? I've always thought it was weird that completely missing a LN gets punished, but missing it and, repressing it waaaaay too late and not releasing until seconds after the LN has ended somehow gives you points and pepe points.

Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Reduce osu!mania ScoreV2 FL multiplier to 1.06x (prev. 1.10x).
I still stand for FL giving 1.0x points, for reasons many people have pointed out already.
posted
I would like to look at the v2 when it comes to harder LN maps with HR. As a pretty decent LN player I tried some things out and I was astonished with the results. On the screenshot below you can see that I had a pretty good acc and nice score. However I FAILED IN THE MIDDLE because LN releases on hr are so incredibly tight that you get a miss on what would have been 200 (or even 300) on v1 nomod. This is so hilarious when you hokd a good acc then the denser sections come and you fail so easily because of high HP on HR. All but 1-2 of the misses were because of stupid release windows. Despite my efforts to release as precisely as I can, I still died. The release windows on HR should be more lenient, especially when it comes to window for miss. I practically have not received other release judgments than MAX, 300, 200 or miss.

My suggestion: either increase the miss window for releases (with making the 100/50 windows wider as well), or change all of the misses to 50s which will prevent failing the map so easily.

posted
btw as we discovered today while we had a friendly Poland vs Argentina match on score v2 the maxes are disgustingly underrated for some reason.
I mean take a look at this:


Poland won despite with 6 less 200s overall while having 220 maxes less, and by over 5k points to top it off which is just ridiculous.
Also if you take a look at Juan's and Hudonom's scores: Hudonom got a score 18 points better than juan despite having 98 less maxes just because he had one less 200. That is really not okay.

There were other cases where scores were ridiculously close for no good reason:



Grubonom vs Juan vs aluu, I know that Grubonom missed right at the end but still

MAX'es really should be weighted much more that they are now.

mp link for this match: https://osu.ppy.sh/mp/26530910
posted
That sounds impossible. Are you sure everyone was actually using Stable (latest) / Beta / CE?
posted
Right now, percentage is the only number that factors into the Accuracy calculation,, so there's no differentiation between 300g/300. Therefore, there is only a very tiny portion of the score actually affected by the difference (mainly the combo).

Actually, when looking at the code, I'm not even sure that is true right now, though that's probably not intended. I'm a dumbass I found it.

Also as a minor side note: Maybe consider starting the combo counter at max combo? (if possible). That way, it doesn't diminish the weighting of the first 400 notes of the map.
posted

Ciel wrote:

Right now, percentage is the only number that factors into the Accuracy calculation,, so there's no differentiation between 300g/300. Therefore, there is only a very tiny portion of the score actually affected by the difference (mainly the combo).
This is correct - 320s are very much underweighted because the only component of the scoring system that takes into account 320 accuracy is the combo component, which only has a 20% prominence. Add on to the fact that the difference between a 300 and 320 is so small and that the absolute difference between juan and Hudo's 320 count isn't that significant, it would make sense that 320s are really underweighted at the moment.

You could mitigate this by including 300gs into accuracy, but from what I've experimented it might create too much emphasis on MAX accuracy with charts that players have issues getting 96%+ on (and as a result would not be an accurate assessment of skill). You can try having a weightage of 310 instead of 320 for accuracy instead, but it's up to you.

But by including the rainbow component into accuracy, I don't really see much purpose in having a combo component in the first place, but I'm not quite sure how to justify it and put it in words.

Alternatively, you can avoid including MAXes in the accuracy component and just increase the importance of MAXes to like 360 to increase the emphasis of it by a noticeable but not overpowering amount in the combo component, but that requires a bit more experimentation.

Also as a minor side note: Maybe consider starting the combo counter at max combo? (if possible). That way, it doesn't diminish the weighting of the first 400 notes of the map.
Also supporting this.

Also, emphasis on underjoy's post. He brings up a pretty good point about LNs, and it wouldn't make sense for him to have so many misses with a distribution like that. Here's a HRv1 and HRv2 comparison as well for another chart. Given the 50/100 windows of v1, it wouldn't make much sense for the miss count in v2 to be that high in the first place, unless there's some bug that scorev1 has with LNs.
posted

smoogipooo wrote:

That sounds impossible. Are you sure everyone was actually using Stable (latest) / Beta / CE?
Yes I am sure, look at freemod picks, everyone had multipliers on mods. Also on score v1 100 maxes more would edge out 1x200 less by about 3,5k on Ambitious.
You can also confirm that by looking at ideally same combos on FCs which is nearly impossible to do on v1.
We all agreed to play that match on score v2 so everyone was prepared for it
EDIT: Also since the timing windows for MAX scales with OD on v2, could you maybe give us a small table with how wide are they for major OD and HR?
posted
Make MAX worth 100% and 300 worth 99% 8-)8-)
posted

_underjoy wrote:

I would like to look at the v2 when it comes to harder LN maps with HR. As a pretty decent LN player I tried some things out and I was astonished with the results. On the screenshot below you can see that I had a pretty good acc and nice score. However I FAILED IN THE MIDDLE because LN releases on hr are so incredibly tight that you get a miss on what would have been 200 (or even 300) on v1 nomod. This is so hilarious when you hokd a good acc then the denser sections come and you fail so easily because of high HP on HR. All but 1-2 of the misses were because of stupid release windows. Despite my efforts to release as precisely as I can, I still died. The release windows on HR should be more lenient, especially when it comes to window for miss. I practically have not received other release judgments than MAX, 300, 200 or miss.

My suggestion: either increase the miss window for releases (with making the 100/50 windows wider as well), or change all of the misses to 50s which will prevent failing the map so easily.

HR was being added twice to the hit windows. I've pushed a fix (only on CE for now) that rectifies this and modifies all other timing windows sliiiiiightly so they align with MAXs a bit better by interpolating from OD0-OD5 and OD5-OD10 instead of linear scaling from OD0-10.

Please test again.
posted

I don't know what to say.
posted

Todestrieb wrote:


I don't know what to say.
With the current system not using HR after you reach some level of accuracy is a bad idea (unless the map has some part that would make you fail with HR, even with good overall accuracy). Additionally, the FL multiplier is more significant the closer the play is to a perfect play.
posted


lmao.
posted
There's another issue with the current proposal I don't think has been addressed in this thread. Bad judgements like 50s, 100s (and 200s to some extent) have significantly less impact on score compared to ScoreV1.

In ScoreV1, bonusscore is severely reduced by anything worse than a 300. Bonusscore accounted for 50% of your total score, so getting a ton of bad judgements is going to seriously impact your total score in ScoreV1. ScoreV2 replaces bonus score, which punishes bad judgements, with combo score, which only punishes misses. Mashing is a common complaint in osu!mania already, but this is going to get worse by rewarding players for keeping combo without taking bad judgements into account.

To give a slightly over the top example: scoring a 200 on every note in a song is going to give you an accuracy of 66.67% and a score of about ~335k. The score is really low because you barely get any bonus score. The same play would net you a somewhat respectable 733.3k in the current proposal. Add FL to this, and you get a score of 777.3k. In practice, it's going to be less extreme than this, but it's definitely present.

I don't think this is acceptable at all. Inaccurately mashing your way through hard parts of a song while keeping combo is going to give really good scores. Not just because of the combo score, but also because bad judgements give too much score.
posted

lim38 wrote:



lmao.
Yeah, maxes should be weighted a lot more imo
posted
score v2 what :o
posted
Have been talking to other people about scorev2 and its issues. The main three issues that people have said are:
- Rainbows are weighted too little.
- HR on v2 is ridiculously difficult to get rainbows on (on Stable at least, on Cutting Edge it seems as easy as accumulating rainbows on nomod - but more on that later).
- LNs generate a lot of misses if they have really tricky releases. They work fine for other types of LNs.

All of those problems can definitely be amended.

Rainbow Accuracy

Shoegazer wrote:

320s are very much underweighted because the only component of the scoring system that takes into account 320 accuracy is the combo component, which only has a 20% prominence. Add on to the fact that the difference between a 300 and 320 is so small and that the absolute difference between juan and Hudo's 320 count isn't that significant, it would make sense that 320s are really underweighted at the moment.

You could mitigate this by including 300gs into accuracy, but from what I've experimented it might create too much emphasis on MAX accuracy with charts that players have issues getting 96%+ on (and as a result would not be an accurate assessment of skill).

Alternatively, you can avoid including MAXes in the accuracy component and just increase the importance of MAXes to like 360 to increase the emphasis of it by a noticeable but not overpowering amount in the combo component, but that requires a bit more experimentation.
I initially wanted to increase the rainbow judgement weightage without embedding rainbows into accuracy, but no matter how much I changed it, the difference is very minor (~600-1,200 points) and a 200 will almost always be too powerful compared to a rainbow 300. So I scrapped that idea and thought that embedding rainbows into accuracy with a reasonable weightage and maybe making the curve more lenient would be the best idea.

I've been experimenting with weightages and discussing with people about how much a 200 should be worth compared to a 300. I initially thought that 310 would be fine (and a 200 would be worth 11 300s), but when it came to matches like this, if accuracy was the only factor, Argentina would win by 21,000 points. I do think that Argentina should win and it's a step in the right direction, but 21,000 seems extremely overwhelming since it undermines the fact that Poland had overall, noticeably less 200s. I tried it with harder charts too and they seem to favour rainbow accuracy a little too much for my liking - especially since when it comes to harder charts (where players struggle with), good rainbow accuracy is usually caused by variance rather than a higher skill level. 200s and worse judgements should determine performance for that.

I wanted to use 307 afterwards, but it still gave a bit too much emphasis for my liking, about 12,500 points for that Argentina/Poland match. I went down to 305, and the difference is about 6,800. I think that's ultimately the most reasonable assessment, and others I've talked to seem to agree with the prenotion that a 200 is about 21 normal 300s. Ignoring the bad judgements (since those values are pretty much set in stone at this point), this is probably (part of) the ideal solution. This does mean that only full rainbow scores are SSs, but I don't see that as a problem as frames of reference can be shifted.

Getting rid of the difference between a rainbow and a normal 300 in the combo scoring component is probably ideal too, since that should be in the accuracy component, not the combo component. If rainbows are included into accuracy, the combo component does not need a rainbow component.

I also wanted to soften the exponential curve a tiny bit when it comes to including rainbows, mainly because at a certain point extremely good accuracy is more caused by variance rather than a very high skill level - unless the performance is consistently done, which is not measurable with just one match and one attempt. The exponential I had in mind was Accuracy^(2 + 2 * Accuracy), but it's essentially Accuracy^4 - so 1 power down.

Similar note, wanted to respond to this:

Drojoke wrote:

To give a slightly over the top example: scoring a 200 on every note in a song is going to give you an accuracy of 66.67% and a score of about ~335k. The score is really low because you barely get any bonus score. The same play would net you a somewhat respectable 733.3k in the current proposal. Add FL to this, and you get a score of 777.3k. In practice, it's going to be less extreme than this, but it's definitely present.
A 66.67% score nets you about 306K (181K for accuracy, 125K for combo). Adding FL increases it to 324K, you might've miscalculated. In any case, I do agree with the fact that bad judgements (non-200/300 judgements) should be penalised more, but I don't think it's necessarily what they have in mind at the moment, since the values are carved in stone. MAX judgements are not.

tl;dr: Embed rainbows into accuracy with a weightage of 305 instead of 320, change the accuracy curve to Accuracy^(2 + Accuracy * 2), remove the differentiation between rainbows and normal 300s in the combo component (both of them should have a HitValue of 30).


HardRock
Accumulating rainbows on HR on most charts is really strict already, but since the rainbow window is stricter in scorev2 in ODs beyond 8, it gets even stricter and probably way too difficult. On anything above OD7.5, the HR will be boosted to 10 - which means that it has a rainbow window of +-13ms. Add on the general effects of HR (which makes windows 40% tighter), it gets knocked down to 9ms, truncated. Considering that any hits within +-5ms is caused by computer performance variance, having only 4ms of "controlled" timing is very very low - especially since the difference between an 6ms controlled window (HRv1 window) and a 4ms controlled window is huge. While it is true that certain modes have windows this tight on HR (and maybe DT), 85% of charts used in MWC are OD8, whereas it's much less common in other game modes to have something this tight (in Standard it's some absurd DTHR with a decent OD, and in Taiko it's some absurdly high OD with DTHR, and I'd argue that timing on both games are easier than Mania).

There's also the fact that with the rainbow weightage aspect included, wins on FreeMod are very variance-based rather than performance-based.

My main suggestion is to keep the 40% tighter window (except for early miss judgements) on HR, but not increase OD with HR. 11ms (OD8-OD9 is standard), while I still think is noticeably harsh, is the norm and the 40% seems to fit the other judgement windows quite well anyway. In fact, v1 already does this, this is a OD5 chart on HR. While it appears as if it looks like OD7+HR, is actually aligned with OD5 with 40% tighter windows. Ignore the additional 0.5ms, as it's some byproduct of woc's janky coding.

But that's one thing. The other thing I noticed is that the difference between rainbow difficulty between scorev2 NoMod and scorev2 HR on on Cutting Edge is insignificant. I've experimented this with juan, and his performance on NoMod and HR is similar, variance included. Pictures included:



A 25x300 difference for something that should be a 6ms gap (15ms - 9ms) is absurd, and is most definitely not caused by variance in performance.


I told juan to play on the Stable build as well, and then he noticed a massive difference in accuracy with scorev2 HR. He can usually get a 6:1 to 7:1 ratio on scorev2 HR in CE (and is comparable to his nomod scores consistently), but he can barely break 2.5:1 on Stable. He didn't seem to mention any performance issues either. Here are pics of his scores on the Stable build:



Note that these two charts are also comparable in difficulty as well, both would've been in Group Stages last year (and Sakura Mirage was in last year).

I know you mentioned a HR rainbow fix earlier in the thread, but I'm not sure if it did what it was supposed to do. Seems like it created issues rather than fixed a problem. underjoy's ratio on HR before the fix made sense to me given the relatively low OD and all, my main concern was with the miss count (which I'll talk about in the next section).

tl;dr: Don't increase OD when HR is switched on but keep the stricter timing windows, Accumulating rainbows on OD10+HR is way too strict because the window where a player can control is really really small and it affects an overwhelming majority of charts in MWC. There might be a problem in Cutting Edge where HR currently is as easy as NoMod.


LNs
LNs in v1 seem to be bugged - making them much easier than they should be. While I understand how the LN mechanics work, it doesn't seem to work that way for LNs that you don't let go but you hit the LN head perfectly. For some reason, no matter when you let go of the note, as long as you hit the head perfectly, you will get a 200. If you hit the head a bit earlier or later, you get a 100 instead. Here is video demonstration of this. This is probably (partially) why LNs in v1 are so easy compared to ones in v2 - particularly ones with very tricky releases. Players subconsciously don't let go of LNs properly and they don't get punished for it. In v2, the punishment becomes noticeable. In v2, players get a miss if they don't let go.

Getting rid of this bug is definitely a good start, but since scorev2 is implemented at such short notice (85% of participants probably haven't used scorev2 yet, though you can argue that it's their own fault) and MWC is used as testing grounds, you'd want to make LN releases more lenient than they currently are at the moment for easier transitioning - as players are getting a lot of misses already, even on NoMod. I think a LN leniency of 1.8x would be fine, but this is a bit of an arbitrary figure. I don't really know the effects of this because I don't play LN charts that much, and you're better off asking players like juankristal or _underjoy instead.

tl;dr: Increase LN leniency to 1.8x for easier transitioning, as LNs in v1 contain a bug that makes LN releases much much easier than they should've been in the first place.


I think that should be all, feel free to ask any questions if you're uncertain about a couple of things that I've pointed out/suggested.
posted
Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Make osu!mania ScoreV2 early miss window unchanged by HR.
Such a small detail, but very effective in punishing spamming. I'm digging this!
posted
Hello,
I decided to do some testing of LN maps on v2 system. As you know, there was previously an issue that caused LN maps on HardRock to be barely playable due to the excessive amount of misses made on LN releases. However, today I have observed that this problem is also really visible on v2 nomod play. We've tested some maps, here is the mp link and some screenshots from our play that show the problem very well:

https://osu.ppy.sh/mp/26731666
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5743076
http://puu.sh/qlPHd/c3d92da6d5.png

As you can see, there is one thing those screenshots have in common: abnormal amount of misses and negligible amount of 50 and 100 judgments. As a pretty decent LN player I can easily notice when I'm hitting a LN as I should and when I'm releasing it too early/too late. My observations are that for releasing a LN on normal terms you can get only MAX, 300, 200 and miss. Apparently there is a bug that doesn't allow the other judgements to appear and converts them into misses.

This is very visible on the Funny Shuffle map, which has really bizarre LN endings. If the system worked correctly, I'd get a lot of 50s and 100s for uncorrect releases - however, I got only one 50. How? It seems that while I cannot see a way to get a 100 from releasing a long note, there is a possibility (and only possibility it seems) to get a 50, if you release the LN much too early and repress it.

Anemone LN is another difficult LN map with unintuitive long note patterning, and releases don't follow the music. I struggled with the map, not only because it's quite hard, but mostly because the lack of my precision on releasing gave me a high number of misses which caused me to fail really quickly as well as tank the score and be unable to recover. The amounts of 50 and 100 also look very suspicious. In this map I also tried to repress the LNs as said above, and I got 50s. This leads to an interesting conclusion: it's more beneficial to repress a LN, than to hold it too long (to avoid a miss).

About maps like Inside DT, where the numbers look okay: 100 and 50 judgments are caused by wrong note presses, not by releases. I still felt got two seemingly random misses near the start of the map. At the ending fast jacks combined with noodles made me obtain bad judgments.

It's really easy to observe that LN releases are at the moment not working as intended, and while this might not be so blatant in early stages of the MWC, it will surely cause a lot of trouble in higher-end maps.
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