gintoki147 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me

thank you so much
as someone who started playing VSRGs two years ago and tried many different games, those are exactly my thoughts of o2jam/stepmania lmao

Ever since stepmania introduced scripting as a part of skinning, theming, the diversity of stepmania themes skyrocketed.

Khelly wrote:

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.


2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Hey rate my combo based scoring idea
2016-06-20 14:38 Lampranthus: yeah
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Combo is worth 100,000/1,000,000 points
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: 25% of a map's total combo
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: will give you all 100k points
2016-06-20 14:40 Khelly: Is that good or bad
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: I think it's pretty good
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: Again, if you back it up with making your game's content able to fit those standard there's nothing you can do really wrong
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: but speed players will leave, and MA players from Stepmaina and LR2 will flock in

cringe

Basically the point (indirectly but in relevancy to the topic at hand) of my post beforehand was that you can't really make a game based off of consistency and combo when your game mostly consists of charting styles based off of other scoring systems that don't include these systems.

Mini-LNs in stepmania are completely justified and are actually welcomed as a booster for your DP; the equivalent of raw score/%accuracy in O!M. In this game, it is the contrary; many conversions such as Brute Force have watered down the amount of mini-LNs used for what I assume is this reason (I don't want to put words into the "mouth" of the person who converted them).

I truly think that if Osu!Mania was a little more strict with creating their own original content while also mass producing it. You would also have to unrank stuff like haelequin's bullshit ending to fully justify these changes without making it a half-assed game like it currently is. (Unranked stuff doesn't really matter in scoring that much anyway aside from in tourneys which only affects the minority of players)

toolazytowriteanymore so

tl;dr Anything can work as a solid game as long as the work is put in to actually make it a fully-fleshed out thing. It may not appeal to all audiences of course; being a player who doesn't play for consistency I don't think it would much appeal for me, but it would definitely make for interesting content. Pretty much, if you're going to make a game that breaks the mold of current popular VSRG, you had better make the innovations elsewhere than in just the scoring system.








really lazy sry

*Also I should probably say that I understand that this is actually only going to be in MWC for now, just saying stuff

It's only sort of related to scorev2, but I wanted to make a small point about scoring and mapping style.

See, when osu!mania was released, I saw it as a possible way to create a place where every kind of chart/map/file/whatever is acceptable. Not just another game with it's own exclusive community that comes up with their own style and ignores everything every other game is doing. The fact that it supports a wide number of key modes just added to this sense of inclusivity. I'm all for osu!mania finding it's own style, but I'd rather not have a scoring system that is designed around that single style. Nor do I want to see ranked maps all conform to a singular style.

Here's a suggestion for accuracy score part. I tried to keep both essential score bonus for each additional percent above 95% and lenient enough loss for low acc players to give their teams a chance.


Also, i support Shoegazer's combo suggestion. In his system, one miss at 1000 combo map means loss of ~10k. In regular score system, this number is almost the same, lol. Shoegazer's suggestion would make score v2 not combo-based, but combo-adjusted. I didn't find any plots, so i've made one:


I hope, this will help people to understand advantages of Shoegazer's combo formula.

Kivicat wrote:

That means, if you miss in the middle of map and then get 300 combo, you'll lose ~18% of score for those 300 notes. If map has 1500 notes, that will be 18% of 1/5 of 200k, lol (that's about 7k).

If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song. That's a big problem, consider this scenario:

Beatmap X, 2000 notes, hard 20 note burst @ 980th note and another equally hard 20 note burst @ 1980th note. Player A hits all notes, but misses 1 note in the first burst. Player B hits all notes, but misses 1 note in the last burst. Both players performed equally well, but player B gets a higher score.

The same problem exists in the current scoring system. I don't think I've seen any combo based scoring system proposed that doesn't have problems like these, which is why I think it's better to look for a scoring system that does not rely on combo.

Drojoke wrote:

If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song.

See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.

My Brain: *Math Error intensifies*

Kivicat wrote:

Drojoke wrote:

If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song.

See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.

The problem is still present in some extent.

For example, in a map with 2000 notes, 3 20-note bursts at 500, 550, and 600.
Two players miss once during the first burst. Player A misses once during the 2nd bursts but doesn't miss during the 3rd. Player B doesn't miss during the 2nd burst but misses once during the 3rd. Player A gets a higher score overall than Player B.

The only case where situations like these don't happen would be when the current combo doesn't have an influence in the amount of score given by a note.

For increasing the influence of misses, it would be better to redefine how accuracy is determined. The current accuracy percentage formula (and any scaling defined by a monotonic function of it) underestimates the importance of misses and bad judgments compared to better judgments.

Kivicat wrote:

See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.

By multiplying the hit value with the logarithm of your combo (up to combo limit), you're only making the problems Full Tablet and I suggested smaller. Differences in scores that really should've been the same are now smaller, but they're still there.

Full Tablet wrote:

The current accuracy percentage formula (and any scaling defined by a monotonic function of it) underestimates the importance of misses and bad judgments compared to better judgments.

Accuracy and score both underestimate the importance of misses and bad judgements, and they always will as long as misses give 0 score and 0% accuracy. Combo bases systems try to make misses matter more by (usually) reducing the score given by subsequent notes, but this creates all sorts of edge cases where such a scoring system produces very odd score differences.

I still think it's best to take inspiration from stepmania's way of punishing for misses and bad judgements; by reducing score. This punishes bad gameplay without edge cases like the ones Full Tablet and I mentioned.

lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again

NoSaucierMagic wrote:

lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again

This post made my day

Here is a formula for score based on the judgment counts (acc-based score).
It is based on linear approximations during the calculation of the normal curve that fits the distribution of the judgments (using exact formulas required using numerical methods that were somewhat computationally expensive, and maybe they were too complex); the linear approximation is better for low accuracy scores (but it still should gives sensible values for high accuracy scores).

Variables:
a: Hit window for a Rainbow (16.5ms with no-mod with old timing values).
b: Hit window for a 300 (OD and Mod dependent).
c: Hit window for a 200.
d: Hit window for a 100.
e: Hit window for a 50.
JMAX/J300/.../JMISS : Count of the judgments.

anm: Linear scale constant, to make the maximum score 1,000,000, then anm=a. To make scores between different OD or timing window mods (HR/EZ) in the same map directly comparable (a higher score represents a higher accuracy), then anm has to be constant regardless of the timing windows.

1. To balance EZ/HR/Nomod, it would be a good idea to always make anm equal to the value of "a" with Nomod. That way HR can go beyond 1 million score (as long as the player has very good accuracy during the play), EZ gets less than 1 million even with all rainbows, all-Rainbows with no-mod is always 1 million score.
2. If the timing window for a Rainbow is ever OD-dependent, then anm would need to be OD-dependent as well to make the max score with no-mod 1 million, but then, the difficulty of achieving certain score would vary depending on the OD. For that reason, I think it would be better to not change the timing window of a Rainbow depending on OD.

Score formula: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/4z6 ... a.png?dl=0

Edit: Here is a better approximation (but this formula might be too long): http://i.imgur.com/rcWR71N.png

NoSaucierMagic wrote:

lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again

Beautiful.

NinjaSM wrote:

NoSaucierMagic wrote:

lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again

Beautiful.

hi

i play this game

i'm advocating and have been helping with this score change

so do yourself and everyone else who has had nothing but a negative opinion without explanation a favor: kindly piss off.

as to others who are still helping out and giving suggestions: that's what this needs.

Just sharing my two cents on FL mod, the visual mod I am usually playing with.

Certain people with visual mods ON may find it easier to play, and perform better, why? They are only required to focus a small portion (example: upper half ) of the screen, and process in their brains n' hit the keys accordingly. Notes on the lower half is deemed unnecessary to the players; they may treat anything appears at the lower half as a distraction which may make them lose focus.

However, personally, FL mod makes things harder mostly, only when a song contains lots of SVs. Take these songs for example:
xi - Happy End of the World by Blocko
FamiRockP - Oni Kanojo by Entozer
Risk Junk-G - Candy Galy by Staiain

Recall the portions of these songs which has slowjams.

As player score is judged heavily based on accuracy in this game, heavy SV of a song (especially unpredictable "slowjams", or too many notes to be processed during slowjams) will affect accuracy of a player, this brings the difficulty for the player to get a better score.

For some people, they may think FL is difficult and very impressive....as only minority group of people plays with FL. However, IMO, it is not that hard but it takes time for someone to get oneself familiar with the mod.


It's pretty layman as I am not someone good in describing things, but I hope the community gets my point.

smoogipooo wrote:

1. Make DT adjust to 100%/110%/.../150% with score bonus increments of 0.05x (or something like that).

Please do.

Can you apply that to HT of 0.8 and 0.9?

Khelly wrote:

Can you apply that to HT of 0.8 and 0.9?

This would be amazing. I play a lot of 0.8x-0.9x in stepmania because I usually suck at 180-200 bpm jumpstreams and 150-180 bpm jumpstream maps are harder to find. I definitely miss being able to practice harder songs without going full snail mode with HT @0.75x speed.

There's lots of fun maps for me that are too easy ht and way too hard nomod; that's why I widh osu mania had those speeds

Are you think LN (lonte noooooooodel) is easy?

And you give 1 combo for 1 ln?

Ok try ENTODZER map like dis
1, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130464

Dis

2. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/146623

And dia

3. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/138430


I waiting you result score and kombos.

And say ln is easy like nornal notes.

masdafugh wrote:

Are you think LN (lonte noooooooodel) is easy?

And you give 1 combo for 1 ln?

Ok try ENTODZER map like dis
1, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130464

Dis

2. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/146623

And dia

3. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/138430


I waiting you result score and kombos.

And say ln is easy like nornal notes.

Considering that the actual combo number didn't affect score at all in the V1 scoring, LNs are worth more than they used to be, since they have two judgements now.

I had a multiplayer session with a friend to test out v2 a bit. Wanted to see it in action after hearing complaints. Here's a play we had that stood out to me, and which I thought could make for some good input.
These spoilerboxes will contain an image each.


Sv2 score, first play:

Sv1 score, second play:

On my first impression of these, I thought this was fair, even scores and all for fairly even plays. What with the 200 count being the same.
However, what stands out is the MAX/300 ratio. It's a fair bit higher in the v2 play (thank you LNs), while managing to receive a lower score.

V2: 980/198/5/0/0/0 = 991944 score
V1: 921/210/5/0/0/0 = 991995 score

This is giving me the impression that MAX count impacts score less in v2 than in v1.
What am I missing here? Is this how it's supposed to be?

‎

Redon wrote:

Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Increase osu!mania FL ScoreV2 mod multiplier to 1.10x.

Please stop. I thought ten pages of people explaining why this is a bad idea was enough? Just get rid of it, it's nothing but a visual aid.

But he really wants to shoehorn it in, people explaining why its bad just isn't enough.

oi... I was pretty sure that a bunch of people, including those who mained Flashlight... were (rightfully) against a scoreboost... why are we adding it now?

Increase osu!mania HR ScoreV2 mod multiplier to 1.20x.

This seems like a really significant change, coming from a multiplier of 1.06x.

Consider an FC on an OD 8 song with a perfect normal distribution and standard deviation of 20ms (i.e. 200 UR). Disregarding combo score, this would give a score 959.3k:

Consider the same play, with HR turned on. The score is now reduced to 910.3k before multipliers:

With a 1.06x multiplier, the HR score would've been 964944.5k, which is very close to the no-mod score. A 1.2x multiplier would make the score skyrocket to 1,092.4k. A mere 820k HR rank S score, including several 100s and 50s, would dominate a 980k rank SS score.

HR's 1.2x multiplier is so good, you're only better off playing no-mod when HR makes you fail a song or if you're trying to play a song that's way out of your leage. I would suggest keeping it roughly at its original multiplier of 1.06x. Emphasis added to roughly, because I'm sure 1.08x would work out just fine. I just can't be bothered to dig any deeper right now.

On a side note, I'd like to point out how incredibly high the aforementioned HR score is. Assuming a 1000 note song, that's 152 200s and 9 100s. Both the no-mod and HR scores would be even closer to both the 1 million mark and each other, because I ignored the combo aspect of the score. This just goes to show how severely unpunished bad judgements are in ScoreV2. Using a purely accuracy based scoring system similar to Stepmania's MIGS DP, does pretty well in this situation:

With the score system I made, HR/EZ get a balanced score by design. In previous posts I have posts I posted some approximate formulas for it, but I think that using a calculation method that is more accurate would better, I wrote some code that can calculate score using double precision floating numbers quite accurately.

The algorithm basically does a maximum likelihood fit of the timing errors in the play, using a normal curve with zero mean, using as input the distribution of the judgments in the play (taking into account their timing windows); the parameter to fit is the standard deviation of the curve (the lower the standard deviation, the more accurate is the play). The timing window of LN releases would be considered be same as of presses, to account for the increased difficulty of releasing accurately (assuming using the current timing windows already balance the difficulty of releases compared to presses)

Then, a penalty is applied based on the amount of judgments in the play, to take into account if the results were just by chance. This is analogous to the case of estimating how loaded a coin is by throwing it 5 times, if you get 5 heads in a row, a safer estimation of the probability of getting a head would be 87.055% (probability when getting at least 5 heads when throwing 5 times happens half of the time) instead of 100% (the probability that makes the result of the throws most likely).

Then, the standard deviation (std) found is mapped to a score value (standard deviation of 0 = 1 million score, standard deviation-> Infinity = 0 score). The exact function used to map standard deviation to score doesn't really matter (as long as it strictly monotonically decreasing), but a good option would be using something in the form of: (A*Erf(a/std) + B*Erf(b/std) + ...)/(A+B+...)*1,000,000, since that way score scales in the same way as a accuracy%/DP/MIGS/Exscore system (while still avoiding the balancing problems those systems have).

Note that since a penalty is applied based on the amount of judgments, getting 1 million score is not possible with a map with a finite amount of notes (you can only get very close, when the amount of notes is high and the timing windows are tight), this might be seen as a problem, but it actually this solves another bigger problem. Without that penalty, getting all rainbows with EZ or No-mod would both give 1 million score, so there would be no reason to ever use HR if you want to maximize your score; with the penalty, using more strict timing windows makes it possible to get closer to 1 million score, giving reason to players to use HR if they can handle it.

Examples of scores (using a standard deviation -> score function that scales similarly to Exscore): Note that those plays were done with Scorev1 mechanics (only 1 judgment per LN), but the idea remains.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/647965 Drop - Granat [5K EZ] (a very short map)
All Rainbows No-Mod: 993,738 score.
All Rainbows EZ Mod : 966,397 score.
All Rainbows HR Mod: 999,830 score.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/552745 Soleily - Renatus [Hard], all plays done by me in the same day: Rainbows/300/200/100/50/Miss
1040/641/145/16/4/7 No-Mod: 650,298 score.
1343/446/52/7/0/5 EZ Mod: 646,645 score.
710/745/316/63/3/16 HR Mod: 657,208 score.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/866194 deadmau5 - Orange File [Emptiness]
235/137/31/1/0/0 No-Mod: 729,438 score.
293/101/10/0/0/0 EZ-Mod: 723,009 score.
170/138/86/9/0/1 HR-Mod: 704,914 score.
All Rainbows No-mod: 999,143 score.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/746951 UNDEAD CORPORATION - The Empress scream off ver [MX]
677/530/162/23/6/30 No-Mod: 519,410 score.
432/564/295/82/8/47 HR Mod: 544,990 score.
930/408/55/14/1/20 EZ-Mod: 501,934 score
All Rainbows No-mod: 999,757 score.

I suggest that hitting a 50 should break your combo because the combo bonus is supposed to reward consistency.

Quoting smoogipooo

We want to value the more accurate players (accuracy) whilst applying a small reward for consistency (combo).

Consistency is the ability to hit good judgments continuously, and therefore hitting bad judgments does not show this skill and should not be awarded extra points due to consistency. Other more established rhythm games such as O2Jam also break your combo at a BAD (roughly equivalent to Osu!mania's 50). This implies that breaking combo at 50 is a tried and tested move and is a more sensible scoring system.

Not breaking combo at 50s would undoubtedly cause people to be rewarded by indiscriminate mashing and punish high accuracy players as low accuracy players would have a chance to overtake high accuracy players through combo points awarded by unskilled mashing.
It is very easy to mash any map in the whole game, as shown by drace's play below. (check t/224534&start=0 for more details)


On the contrary, if the combo is broken at 50s, it can ensure that players are rightfully rewarded by their consistency in hitting the right notes at the right time, which was the objective of the game before any changes.

That is why I strongly suggest that combo to break at 50 to preserve the value of combo as a way to sort good players from bad players.

In regards to the combo section of what scorev2 currently is, a lot of people have recommended doing a percentage of the max combo, to find the combo cap. I think that instead of having the combo cap linearly related to the max combo, there should be a square root relationship.

I propose: Combo Cap = floor(sqrt(Max Combo) * 10)

This means:
-500 max combo has a 223 combo cap
-1000 max combo has a 316 combo cap
-2000 max combo has a 447 combo cap
-5000 max combo has a 707 combo cap

but then again id rather combo not matter at all so lol.

Cuber wrote:

I think that instead of having the combo cap linearly related to the max combo, there should be a square root relationship.

I strongly disagree. Making the combo cap dependent on the max combo is problematic, as it couples the difficulty of getting a high score to the length of a map.

The current proposal has the combo cap fixed at 400, so now the scoring system is only flawed for songs with less than 400 notes. This may not sound like a big deal, but this means it's going to be easier on maps like Drop - Granat to get a higher score. Noodle maps with very little notes yet considerable difficulty also come to mind as songs that will be easier to score on with ScoreV2.

Cuber wrote:

but then again id rather combo not matter at all so lol.

Neither do I. Holding combo shouldn't be awarded, especially in osu!mania where key mashing goes unpunished. Hitting accurately should be rewarded, hitting poorly should be punished and hitting that which does not exist should be punished if not severely discouraged. All of these things can be achieved without involving combo.

Just a tangential point: I legitimately hate it when people use that video of all examples to prove that osu!mania is easy to mash. He's literally smashing 1/2 notes on a song where the spacing between 1/2 notes is larger than the individual timing windows themselves. Of course he's not going to break combo.

The odds of running into a chart like that are far lower than they are running into something that's actually got a legitimate structure/melody.

Cuber wrote:

but then again id rather combo not matter at all so lol.
Neither do I. Holding combo shouldn't be awarded, especially in osu!mania where key mashing goes unpunished. Hitting accurately should be rewarded, hitting poorly should be punished and hitting that which does not exist should be punished if not severely discouraged. All of these things can be achieved without involving combo.

I hope you're extending edge cases of players who ghost tap in between notes to keep a solid rhythm (and not necessarily are mashing to hold combo).

Halogen- wrote:

I hope you're extending edge cases of players who ghost tap in between notes to keep a solid rhythm (and not necessarily are mashing to hold combo).

There's no point in punishing for hitting keys when there's nothing to play within 'x' ms, where 'x' is the time in ms when a miss is usually triggered (or something similar). Pressing 5 keys on a 3 note chord is a whole different story, of course.

Drojoke wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

I hope you're extending edge cases of players who ghost tap in between notes to keep a solid rhythm (and not necessarily are mashing to hold combo).

There's no point in punishing for hitting keys when there's nothing to play within 'x' ms, where 'x' is the time in ms when a miss is usually triggered (or something similar). Pressing 5 keys on a 3 note chord is a whole different story, of course.

You're getting closer. You'd want to consider x in a time per lane as well. I see no issue hitting 5 keys on a 3 note chord if that chord is alone and by itself. Likewise, if a song has a high tempo but slow repeated notes, players might feel inclined to fill in a rhythm on the other hand to keep steady (I do this all the time).

???

These are these score multiplier I would do

1. HD 1.00x
2. FL 1.05x
3. FI 1.08x
4. HR 1.10x
5. DT adjust to 110%/120%/.../150% with score bonus increments of 0.05x (lowest is 110% with 1.05x multiplier and max is 150% with 1.25x score multiplier)
6. HT adjust to 75%/80%/.../95% with score bonus increments of 0.10x (lowest being 75% with 0.50x score multiplier and max as 95% with 0.9x multiplier)

I think HD shouldn't give because all it does is cover the bottom half off the screen in which most average/top player already focus on the upper half so this doesn't make much difference and just aids players, also people will always just skin a static HD since it's better anyways. I use to play with HD only for months and even I'm saying this shouldn't give any bonus.

Reason why I think FL should give a slight score multiplier is because it does make vision a bit tighter so note will be lumped up also they would have to use about half their normal nomod scroll speed. It's lower than FI because if you get FI too the max, it's below the middle of the screen (middle being where most average/top players focus on looking while FL is always in the middle). The higher the bpm the harder it can get because of density. I use to play with FL only for months and I think FI is more challenging a bit.

I want to give HR to be 1.10x and not 1.20x is because are you trying to say HR = 140% rate of song?

HR is higher than visual mods is because accurate players should be rewarded more than visual mods since they doesn't even do much (except for FI/FL slightly)

DT max 150% should be 1.25x because it's makes the map way more challenging then playing with HR or a visual mod.

HT increments is different from DT because HT makes maps way too easy. Since it makes the map easier than intended, it should be more lower of course.

.

my opinion on score multipliers:

HD - 1.00x
FI - 1.00x
FL - 1.00x
HR - 1.15x
DT - 1.30-1.35x
HT - 0.5x
NF - 0.8x (it's just no fail)
EZ - 0.8x (doesn't make a significant difference really)

If we can have all visual mods be 1.00x I would love that
even though they said they would remove score bonus on all visual mods but instead kept it for FL

Setting a fixed score multiplier for HR and EZ, with the current accuracy formula (accuracy percentage scaled with x^(1+4x)) makes it so there exists accuracy ranges that determine which mod is the most convenient (maximizes the score part of the total score) to use depending on the level of accuracy of the player.
The table is interpreted like in the following example:

If in a map a player gets in average 99.5% accuracy percentage with no mod, then he would get in average more accuracy score using HR if it's multiplier is x1.024 or more (if it is lower than that, then no mod would give in average more score), similarly, the player would get more score in average with EZ compared to No-Mod if the multiplier was x0.894 or more.

IMO, those ranges where in average players get more score by using a specific timing window mod shouldn't exist, the player should get the same score if he plays the notes the same way, regardless of the mod used (and make the mods just a change of scale of the worth of the judgments, analogous as being able to measure the mass of something with either kilograms or pounds). Since the accuracy part of the score only has information about the judgment counts (and not the exact timing of each hit), this is not possible in the edge case where the player gets 100% accuracy or close to it (but it can be accounted for correctly, by making rainbows different to 300s in the accuracy part, and considering the amount of notes to penalize based on the probability the accuracy obtained was far from the expected accuracy of a play; or even better, make the timing windows of rainbows constant regardless of OD and Mods).

Edit: Another possible idea:

Add a new judgment beyond Rainbows (300g), with a tight fixed timing window (for example, +/-10ms), which is required to hit for every note to get 100% of the possible score.
Advantages of the judgment:

1. Scores that were close to the maximum score possible in the previous system would be farther away from it. Since they are farther away, the difference between the median accuracy and the mean accuracy of a player that repeats the map becomes smaller, making it not as necessary to compensate for map length to make a system that balances between different timing window mods fairly. This is specially important for easy charts, where scores of 1 million or very close to it are common.
2. Even if there are scores that end up being close to 100% anyways, having the timing windows of the tightest timing window the same regardless of mods makes the differences between mods smaller for the high accuracy range (virtually the same for 100% and close to it), so there wouldn't be need to compensate for map length even in that case.

‎

I've done some testing on group stage maps from last year's MWC, me Feerum and Xylo played on diffrent mods, first I played FL, Feru HR and xylo nomod and then me and Feru nomod and Xylo HR. I've played FL for about a week on and off, so my acc is still meh on it, but I've noticed some things:

1) Sometimes on HR and even on FL you randomly get a fail on the end of the map, but most of the time it doesn't show it in mp link while it does in your game. For example Xylo and Feru had that on their respective HR plays of Good-Bye Tears, I had that on my FL play of Analyze. Feru's fail on Analyze was also the same thing (he had HP on the end and it just dropped to zero for no reason) and it did show up on mp link.
2) The mods have too high multiplier for sure.

First example is Vision (we had a wrong mode setup, but w/e, that just doesn't show all the stats).
Me vs Xylo - I had 95,82%, 9 misses, 371 max combo and similar ratio while he had 99,00%, 1 miss, 978 combo and I somehow still managed to win by 22k points despite having score objectively a shitton worse.
The scores are 951,783 vs 929,027, my score without a multiplier would be about 856k and really, score that bad should lose despite having FL on.



Second example is Good-bye Tears
Me and Xylo had similar accuracy (I had 0,3% less), 3 misses and I had a slightly higher combo, while Feerum on HR had half of our max combos, negative ratio, 9 misses and almost 2% worse accuracy and he still managed to win with Xylo by 70k points and only lost to me by 18k. The diffrence between our scores wasn't that big, and while I should've still won since I had a similar score on FL, Feru shouldn't have won by this much. Even counting in the diffuclty of scoring with HR, it's giving too much of an edge, it should be a lot closer.
The scores were 1,003,659 (FL) vs 985,018 (HR) vs 915,042 (NM) and without multipliers it would be 912,4k (FL) vs 820,8k (HR) vs 915k (NM). The fact that you need to score about 830k to beat any nomod score is not fair imho.



I'd suggest making the mods, especially HR riskier to pick by lowering the multipliers to 1,06x for FL and 1,1 for HR. That way if you want to edge out nomod plays you need to score around 940k with FL alone, around 909k with HR alone and about 857k with FL+HR which in my opionin is a reasonable threshhold.
Here's the mp link for said testing match: https://osu.ppy.sh/mp/26344409