smoogipooo wrote:

You'll be please to know that there are no more hidden multipliers and rounding issues have been eradicated, but that is not all. Let's go through a list of changes in this initial version(congratulation for all the hateposts of people that didn't even read everything *facepalms*):

1. Score is made up of 20% combo and 80% accuracy. If changes like shoegazer suggested are made, and the ridiculous losses on the tiniest error is fixed, I don't see any problem to adding some combo in the score value, but the score going down when you lose accuracy(losing score you already earned is lame (I don't like that system in the standard scorev2, and I don't like it here)
   
   1. We want to value the more accurate players (accuracy) whilst applying a small reward for consistency (combo). Not much to say to say, but 20% is not small
2. LN starts and ends are now judged separately.
   
   1. Previously LNs considered a joint timing distribution between the start press and end release. This made it unclear as to whether you'd get a MAX after an LN end as you had to take into consideration the LN start. Judging separately should feel more natural, rewarding (as you get instant feedback), and a bit more challenging.
3. LN ends are given a 1.5x lenience to the hit windows.
   
   1. LN starts were previously given up to 1.2x timing window lenience and LN ends were given up to 2.4x timing window lenience. This reduces the complexity of releasing an LN whilst you're focusing on pressing other notes.Hum...I don't have enough information to really give an opinion on these, I'd say it doesn't change much except being a bit harder, since it changes 2 hits for a grade(With the first hit being harder and release being easier) to 2 hits with 2 grades(that are equally difficult(which from what I read in the thread can be 2 misses(that both removes HP)))
4. If an LN is broken but re-pressed, the LN end will not award more than 50 points.Nothing to say about it
   
   1. Works similar to the current system depending on when you release the hold, but is lenient enough to feel rewarding even for newer players (consider that ScoreV2 will be used as the normal ranking in the future).That's something to actually test with the "newer players"
5. LNs do not give combo ticks any more - only one combo tick for the start and end notes. This makes way more sense
   
   1. Feels more natural rather than displaying a useless number.^
6. Mods are back! NF/EZ/HT give 0.5x score multipliers and DT/HR/HD/FI/FL give 1.06x score multipliers.

NF/EZ/HT were already here with 0.5x score, DT was here but did nothing special(hopefully it's not as broken as before it was removed), HR was unranked(considered as useless by...uh...who added them in first place), and HD/FI/FL shouldn't give bonus(already been since a shitton of times)

We've had some internal discussions about how LNs should work, but have not reached a definitive conclusion as there are split opinions. We are eager to hear your feedback regarding osu!mania scoring and this new scoring system!You have mine ^^

I'll be adding here a list of changes I will consider. Please remember that we are fully intending to break the game with these changes. We will apply any changes necessary to make things work:

1. Make DT adjust to 100%/110%/.../150% with score bonus increments of 0.05x (or something like that). Love this
2. Increase the bonus of HR or decrease the tightness of the timing windows.Good luck with making HR good to add

Sakura Kyoko wrote:

Just throwing my opinion in here;

4. Score V2
Don't even get me started. So a song I previously had 992k on now gives me 900k, well okay then.
You LOSE points for poor accuracy. THAT is by far the worst idea I've seen in ages. Why would I lose points that I've gained for doing something well? Like, I'm already losing out on the points that I lose by having poor accuracy/misses. Why would I then lose points for stuff I had on 300S before? Dafuq is this?

It's like "yeah look, you had 10 of the 20 questions correct, but instead of giving you 50% of the points, we're giving you none, because fuck you!"

The new system ONLY benefits top-tier players, and even those will struggle to keep their scores where they currently are, except for accuracy-machines like Halogen-.
And the 200k for having a full combo, while only getting 25% of it for A SINGLE MISS OR COMBO BREAK is incredibly counter-intuitive aswell.
Imagine, 100% the entire song, great 300S-rate, boom, you miss the last note. Well good bye PP, because you just lost 150k for a single miss.
You didn't read through the thread(or you went too fast), you'd know that the 150K loss is if the miss is at the exact middle of the map's combo...Also it's only the first version...go ahead and try to make something perfect on your first try -.-

I think our current score system isn't even that bad and most people didn't complain about it either. Why would you change a running system? There are MUCH bigger problems that need to be fixed, like that incredibly inaccurate star-rating algorithm.
Tom94 just CAN'T work on it right now, and peppy has Osu!Next to focus on...also you're not asking the right person to work on star-rating. it's not because someone is a dev that he does everything in the game...and the current "running system" isn't flawless, smoogi wants to improve it with help of the community

Kivicat wrote:

In this case, to play without score multipliers is the choice that no-mod-players make. I don't see any problem. Playing with HD/FL is more difficult, not due to SVs only. It demands higher concentration, especially when you try to keep combo.

Kivicat wrote:

In this case, to play without score multipliers is the choice that no-mod-players make. I don't see any problem. Playing with HD/FL is more difficult, not due to SVs only. It demands higher concentration, especially when you try to keep combo.

You're not making sense. You're saying that "playing without score multipliers" is something that no mod players make - that's not the case at all. A no-mod player can go onto HD/FL at free will and choose whether or not they want to play that way in an effort to help them. It's pretty well established that high level mania players can and often will go on HD to alleviate the extreme densities found in high difficulty maps in an effort to mitigate the amount of information they have to process.

Sakura Kyoko wrote:

4. Score V2
Don't even get me started. So a song I previously had 992k on now gives me 900k, well okay then.
You LOSE points for poor accuracy. THAT is by far the worst idea I've seen in ages. Why would I lose points that I've gained for doing something well? Like, I'm already losing out on the points that I lose by having poor accuracy/misses. Why would I then lose points for stuff I had on 300S before? Dafuq is this?

I dont know I understand what you are talking about here... IF you have poor accuracy of course you should drop your score...

It's like "yeah look, you had 10 of the 20 questions correct, but instead of giving you 50% of the points, we're giving you none, because fuck you!"

What if you have the 10 easy questions correct? Does that mean you deserve 50% of the score? Even with that, I still dont understasnd what you mean. If you miss 10 times and you have 100 notes then you just should lost 10% of the points? (100k).

The new system ONLY benefits top-tier players, and even those will struggle to keep their scores where they currently are, except for accuracy-machines like Halogen-.

They favour players that can handle difficulty at a certain level. Of course, thats how a scoring system should work. If you arent good enought to beat a map with a decent performance then it doesnt matter which score system you have. Or at least thats what I think

And the 200k for having a full combo, while only getting 25% of it for A SINGLE MISS OR COMBO BREAK is incredibly counter-intuitive aswell.
Imagine, 100% the entire song, great 300S-rate, boom, you miss the last note. Well good bye PP, because you just lost 150k for a single miss.


I am too sure that you didnt even test this... How about giving it a shot before complaining like this? And again, dont look at PP for god sake...

I think our current score system isn't even that bad and most people didn't complain about it either. Why would you change a running system? There are MUCH bigger problems that need to be fixed, like that incredibly inaccurate star-rating algorithm.

Because tournament enviorment is really boring to watch most of the times for mania. Mostly because consistency is a thing that mania players do have (a lot of that) and its really acc-based. If you add combo to the table and mods multipliers then it becomes something 100% different, more exciting and of course as a benefit for those who play good, but a huge drop if you miss just once in a close battle.

5. Conclusion
While I really appreciate the time, effort and the attention mania FINALLY gets, I really think we're heading the completely wrong way. Instead of looking what other games do well (SM with rates, o2JAM LN mechanics), we desperately try to do stuff "our own way", which ends up hurting Mania more than it helps. Give a fair PP bonus for DT or give none at all, don't give bonus points for visual preference and for the love of god, don't subtract points for poor accuracy.

We do have problems, indeed. All mania players know that. But it is 100% needed to have rates? It surely doesnt. Would be a cool add for sure, same thing for a scoring system for tournaments. Now that we have the attention that we "deserve" then we have to clear this topic so then we can try something else like SM rates or whatever (you can always go to SM to play your songs at 1.1x if you want tho)

Sometimes, it's better to look at other, long-standing rhythm games and copy what people like about them. They're not popular for no reason. If we keep heading that way (that way being Score V2, 1.06x score multiplier for DT and visuals, lol), mania will never be taken seriously.

You know... Using "lol" after the multiplier "suggestion" is not helping at all. If you really love osu!mania then take this seriously and dont take everyones effort as it was a joke. Does mania really deserves the attention you pointed out? I am not to sure with this way that we behave sometimes. Like this one. Once that we get noticed at least in something we shouldnt just say those kind of stuff. At least thats my opinion

P.S.: I really love osu!mania, I'm not hating on the game in any shape or form, but I'm loving it how it CURRENTLY is. And I still think we should just copy things that other games (that were created long before osu! even existed) do way better.

Endaris wrote:

Maybe mania will get modspecific mappicks in future tournaments though?

Yetified wrote:

Since it's basicly only for MWC(for now), I don't think having a combo is that bad. It might give the 'underdogs' a higher chance to get a point here and there against some crazy players. It should add some 'spectator value' aswell, since one player can kinda carry his team by holding combo if evrybody else breaks.

Waltrusizer wrote:

yeah lets make the scoring shit for tournaments, the only place it actually matters

Khelly wrote:

Waltrusizer wrote:

yeah lets make the scoring shit for tournaments, the only place it actually matters

I don't like how it would be decided to change the system for the entire game because of wanting to improve one tournament

Khelly wrote:

Std is a completely different game and should not be paid attention to when talking about mania.

iJinjin wrote:

Just before anyone thinks that the new LN changes would make long notes easier... you're very mistaken.

Before I begin, I still stick to my words about supporting the new LN changes because it will make LNs less "mashy" and people would need more skills to hit them accurately, but I think the leniency timing could be increased a bit more.

Smoogipooo's post about LNs getting a 1.5x timing leniency is kinda misleading, because it makes it look like the timing window for long notes have become loose compared to what we had before.
However, the current system for LN releases actually works as follows:
2.4x timing leniency for Rainbow 300s
2.2x timing leniency for 300
2.0x timing leniency for everything else

The current proposal decreases that LN leniency to 1.5x. If you guys are supporting the new LN changes on the belief that hitting LNs accurately would be a lot easier, then you probably would want to disagree with the new changes instead.

In addition, the current system allows you to hold the key down even when the LN is over and will not cause a miss. Instead, it will just decrease the judgement that you get from the LN (200, 100, 50). However, the new system will give you a miss on the release if you don't time it correctly. This means that if you were the type of person that didn't really pay attention to LN endings and release them too early or too late (or usually get 200 or below on LNs), you're going to be hurt a lot by this new change.

Therefore, I strongly suggest you mania players to look again (and even try it out yourselves) into the LN changes, and see if you guys are satisfied with it.

iJinjin wrote:

However, the current system for LN releases actually works as follows:
2.4x timing leniency for Rainbow 300s
2.2x timing leniency for 300
2.0x timing leniency for everything else

smoogipooo wrote:

Hey all,

Cutting Edge has been updated with changes to ScoreV2 that were proposed by Shoegazer here. I want to stress that the changes are not final and we are still tweaking the system to properly represent a player's skill in a competitive setting.

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

robby250 wrote:

Here are my irrelevant opinions, I'll keep it short:

Combo: score v1 is fine, Shoegazer's suggestion might make it very slightly better than that.

Accuracy: same as above

LN timings: should be made more lenient than score v1, not tighter. There's a reason LN spam maps are made lower OD by mappers.

Mod multipliers: the only thing actually worth adding, finding the right multiplier for each mod so that pp for mods can be added until per-mod leaderboards get implemented.

EDIT: and yeah visual mods shouldn't have multipliers but that's already sorted.

My verdict: score v1 is probably the smallest of problems in osu!mania, other than adding mod multipliers for DT pp this is a waste of time.

Arras wrote:

I disagree. Scorev1 frequently has me beating my old scores where the old score has a higher accuracy and a similar combo. Hopefully this can mitigate that sort of thing, as it's really annoying when it happens. While I can't say anything about the release timing leniency as I haven't tried scorev2 (and I assume I can't, since cutting edge can't do multiplayer without supporter), the fact that LNs are split into two notes is a fantastic change imo. This gives the player much better feedback for how well they did on the start of an LN, and you can no longer cheese LN stuff by just holding everything and taking the 200s.
If anything, I'd say the game feeling good to play is far more important than "pp".

smoogipooo wrote:

Star rating and pp is irrelevant to this entire discussion. ScoreV2 will not even be ranked for a long time, and pp/sr calculations are a completely separate matter altogether.

MegaAmoonguss wrote:

I tried out ScoreV2 in multiplayer yesterday and one person in the match literally SS'd the song but had one miss in the middle and got 896k for that. It probably would have been around 997-998k without the miss, and probably like 980-990k on regular Score. I'm not really a fan of how insanely the combo affects you score, and I'm personally hoping that it gets changed in some manner. One of the things I always liked about mania better than standard is the fact that in standard, it almost doesn't matter how well you actually do because if you hold a higher combo you get a higher score. I liked that in mania you can miss, but the emphasis is more on getting as many rainbow 300s and 300s as possible. I'm definitely all for some kind of combo system, but not one that punishes as hard as this lol

smoogipooo wrote:

We need more information, specifically:

* How long was the map?
* Were they actually using ScoreV2? Or even the updated ScoreV2? Keep in mind they have to be on Cutting Edge to try it.