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osu!mania ScoreV2 live!

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Kernaus
>mods multiplier
>HD gives bonus score
>DT and HR give bonus score
>S rank is still easy as fuck to get
>we still dont have SM rates


Please get your priorities straight.
Elementaires

Halogen- wrote:

He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.
I asked him and told me he made the changes (for the test)
and everyone in the room did
Kuo Kyoka
this is bad tbh
i like the old system more
many games used 1000000 as max score, and that goes well for me
Halogen-

Elementaires wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.
I asked him and told me he made the changes (for the test)
and everyone in the room did
There's definitely something wonky going on there -- there's literally no conceivable way for that score to be higher, haha
Reimo
HD/FI/FL gives 1.06x score multipliers... Why?????
SurfChu85
Though lane cover mods are quite useful (since they make reading a good amount of patterns easier, *cough* my 6th Dan pass *cough*)


but multipliers on them? No, thanks.
Jole

smoogipooo wrote:

[*] Mods are back! NF/EZ/HT give 0.5x score multipliers and DT/HR/HD/FI/FL give 1.06x score multipliers.
FrenzyLi
How about if for any x0.1 speedup of the music/beatmap, you get extra x0.05 multiplier? That way DT/NC are x1.25 by current standards.

If the engine allows x1.2 speedup that means i can submit scores on x1.10 multiplier and get new pp calculation if the score exceeds previous submitted scores.
Areha11Fz
wow,

bad idea ;w;
FrenzyLi
Reply to Areha11Fz:

Which of them are bad? You can list them and voice your improvements and opinions.
Domblade
No. It just ruins the meaning of accuracy with the mods giving multipliers, same for the added combo rewarding. No.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Elementaires wrote:

very bad, this isnt how VSRG should be



Why does Musty have the SAME score than Todestrieb with more than 10% less accuracy, more than 100 misses, and less combo?

no sense...
Yeah what this makes no sense to me either, something's definitely wonky as was pointed out earlier.
Xylo-
HD should be just reworked tbh, the amount of covered space is ridiculous after it grows to maximum, if it was a fixed amount, it'd be much better in my opinion.
Not to mention the amount of the multiplier for HR/DT is just funny and not worth going for it.
rezbit
Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
I don't necessarily find it bad that HD and FI are harder for some players than others. The same rule stands for all other game modes - some players find playing with HD much easier in osu!standard than without it. However if you want to be a perfectionist then you better get practicing reading differently.
FrenzyLi
So:
  1. do not give visual mod multiplier
  2. enable fixed HD lane cover (or as separate mod which gives no visual mod bonus)
  3. stepmania-like rate system (not just 150% and 75% but also 140% 130% 120%... and respective multiplier) and pp
  4. wonky score (? _ ?)
Vygatron
visual mod multipliers aren't fair in mania what are you doing
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

rezbit wrote:

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.
Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking feedback, and we have lots of time to make changes.

Also guys, we're not just patching things up. We're aware that HR needs a rework, and we're brainstorming changes right now, do NOT be afraid to suggest us breaking changes - we will consider them.
Reikokaz
http://www.strawpoll.me/10482380
Just leaving this one here o/ :D
Also if you want to add the DT and HR modifier pls increase it since 0.06 isn't beneficial for any kind of player especially on harder map.
I personally also don't like the scoring system how it is right now, since Mania shouldn't be judged by combo.
Wh1teh

smoogipooo wrote:

I don't necessarily find it bad that HD and FI are harder for some players than others. The same rule stands for all other game modes - some players find playing with HD much easier in osu!standard than without it. However if you want to be a perfectionist then you better get practicing reading differently.
Should I get bonus points for reading slabs, arrows or orbs? Should I get bonus points for playing with background enabled? no. That would be stupid, because that's just a preference, like hd,fi,fl are.

E: also the "we have always done it like this" argument is just toxic, referring to your "other game modes" argument.
FrenzyLi
hey wh1teh i can play standard with different skins too, where HD etc have multipliers :)
so how should we break this logic? like how is mania different in terms of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)
Kernaus

smoogipooo wrote:

rezbit wrote:

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.
Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking feedback, and we have lots of time to make changes.

Also guys, we're not just patching things up. We're aware that HR needs a rework, and we're brainstorming changes right now, do NOT be afraid to suggest us breaking changes - we will consider them.
If you're gonna give a bonus to DT, you might as well implement SM rates, DT itself is already a rate so it shouldn't be that hard to implement.

S rank is not a valuable target compared to other VSRGs, it should be around 97% with at least a minimum score required in order to ACTUALLY make the MAX ratio count.


the combo scoring as you proposed it here is way too important. 99% scores with really good ratio : 700k score... really?


EDIT :

FrenzyLi wrote:

like how is mania different in terms of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)
you dont read on mania like you do in standard, HD in mania forces you to read much faster and allows you to have less objects to process on screen, this is not the case in STD, HD in STD makes you forced to heavily read the circles that appear rather than reading the approach circles to time your hits and it very often makes the circles blend together making it harder to read.
Halogen-

Wh1teh wrote:

Should I get bonus points for reading slabs, arrows or orbs? Should I get bonus points for playing with background enabled? no. That would be stupid, because that's just a preference, like hd,fi,fl are.
you're reaching a bit here and you know it.

as far as suggestions for HR: the timing windows are simply too tight as it stands right now to make use of the score multiplier. Either the window needs to be adjusted (less preferable) or the bonus needs to be increased (more preferable).
Wh1teh

FrenzyLi wrote:

hey wh1teh i can play standard with different skins too, where HD etc have multipliers :)
so how should we break this logic? like how is mania different in terms of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)
There are few reasons why I quit std. Unbalanced mods and combo scoring, now they are coming back to haunt me. fml
FrenzyLi

Reikokaz wrote:

http://www.strawpoll.me/10482380
Just leaving this one here o/ :D
Also if you want to add the DT and HR modifier pls increase it since 0.06 isn't beneficial for any kind of player especially on harder map.
I personally also don't like the scoring system how it is right now, since Mania shouldn't be judged by combo.
100% accuracy score, 0% combo score?
lpddemon
good news for me :)
Vygatron

lpddemon wrote:

good news for me :)
stupud
Halogen-
also, i'll be narcissistic for a moment and bring this into play: i'm arguably one of the strongest players with regards to accuracy on 4K, and i'm not fully opposed to a system that has a bit more of a combo-emphasis. I'm not advocating a situation where someone with a 92% FC beats a 99% with a miss, but I do feel like there are certain situations where combo should hold a bit more relevance and it simply doesn't in the current score system.

With then new changes, those who have good LN abilities also get rewarded, which I think is great. AiAe is a good example of where I think Score V2 should make a positive impact -- there are numerous players who have substantial combos and AiAe [SHD] is not exactly something that anyone will be renowned for their fantastic accuracy on (unless they're cheating, of course). Players who manage to break into four digits of combo on that should be rewarded a bit more than players like myself, who struggle just to get far into the three digits on a good run.

Oboro is also probably another ranked map that could see a good shake-up with the new LN mechanics.

I do think that the formula is a bit on the extreme side at the moment and I know that a few people have ideas on how to make it a -bit- better while still having that combo orientation.
Loctav
The current way multipliers are balanced around are to make them work for the upcoming MWC. We are aware that giving multipliers to visual mods is a risky touch, especially due to lacking alternatives to compete against visually obstructing modiers in terms of map ranking. If we (ever) make this scoring to replace the current one, we will put efforts to rebalance multipliers around to make them work with other competing modifiers, of whichs difficulty increase is not based on altering the visual perception of the beatmap.

For now, it is working fine for the structure I am planning for the MWC and we will test this out and then make adjustments based on it.

Fwiw, I would ask everyone to mostly test the 20/80 ratio balance. We won't negate the meaning of combo entirely, but I am aware that basing the score solely on accuracy also is not serving the purpose as it should. I feel like right now, it pans out pretty solid, but if you are encountering situations, where the scores are not resulting the supposed rank placement, because the combo weights too much, too less, etcetc., just let us know and try to bring up a viable idea of how it actually should be, so we can adjust around that.
Reikokaz

FrenzyLi wrote:

100% accuracy score, 0% combo score?
Nah not like that, just keep the old system and modify it a bit
FrenzyLi
Vygatron, you play FL. What's your opinion on FL bonus multiplier. Is it good or stupud?
Vygatron

FrenzyLi wrote:

Vygatron, you play FL. What's your opinion on FL bonus multiplier. Is it good or stupud?
It's not fair. It shouldn't give you more score just because you can't read nomod. Very stupud.
rezbit

smoogipooo wrote:

rezbit wrote:

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.
Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking feedback, and we have lots of time to make changes.
Combo scoring is arbitrary as fuck. With combo scoring, its not about how many misses you get, its where you missed.

Missing at the beginning becomes way less penalizing than missing anywhere else for no good reason. Missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread throughout the chart for no good reason. It also does a shitty job of favoring consistency considering it undermines accuracy by a large margin.

Two guys playing a 10 minute marathon. The one who gets an FC with 70% acc has a better score than the other more consistent guy with 98% with shitmisses here and there. Does that sound logical to you?
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

rezbit wrote:

Combo scoring is arbitrary as fuck. With combo scoring, its not about how many misses you get, its where you missed.

Missing at the beginning becomes way less penalizing than missing anywhere else for no good reason. Missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread throughout the chart for no good reason. It also does a shitty job of favoring consistency considering it undermines accuracy by a large margin.

Two guys playing a 10 minute marathon. The one who gets an FC with 70% acc has a better score than the other more consistent guy with 98% with shitmisses here and there. Does that sound logical to you?
You're exaggerating a bit. A 70% acc will never have more score than the guy with 98% acc. I think it's actually logical that missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread through the map. As maps progress anxiety builds up and you become tired, both of those are indications of how good of a player you are, or otherwise, how consistent of a player you are.

Like... OOPS I missed a note and it takes me until the next beat to get back on rhythm, but I play the map flawlessly from there on, whilst the other guy made wrong movements in several parts of the map. Seems more intuitive that the first guy should get more score than the second.
Kernaus

rezbit wrote:

Combo scoring is arbitrary as fuck. With combo scoring, its not about how many misses you get, its where you missed.

Missing at the beginning becomes way less penalizing than missing anywhere else for no good reason. Missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread throughout the chart for no good reason. It also does a shitty job of favoring consistency considering it undermines accuracy by a large margin.

Two guys playing a 10 minute marathon. The one who gets an FC with 70% acc has a better score than the other more consistent guy with 98% with shitmisses here and there. Does that sound logical to you?
As smoogi said, this is heavily exagerated, that's the kind of thing that would only happen in standard.


thescenario that can happen however is, take any map, two players, one gets a shitmiss at the beginning, the other gets a shitmiss near the end what will happen? wont it be the one that missed at the beginning who will win? if that's the case, i dont think this is fair.



Also i mentionned it already but please, PLEASE, make the MAX ratio count on the final grade of the play, it has an effect in stepmania, it has an effect in LR2, i don't see why it shouldn't be the case in osu!mania
rezbit

smoogipooo wrote:

rezbit wrote:

Combo scoring is arbitrary as fuck. With combo scoring, its not about how many misses you get, its where you missed.

Missing at the beginning becomes way less penalizing than missing anywhere else for no good reason. Missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread throughout the chart for no good reason. It also does a shitty job of favoring consistency considering it undermines accuracy by a large margin.

Two guys playing a 10 minute marathon. The one who gets an FC with 70% acc has a better score than the other more consistent guy with 98% with shitmisses here and there. Does that sound logical to you?
You're exaggerating a bit. A 70% acc will never have more score than the guy with 98% acc. I think it's actually logical that missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread through the map. As maps progress anxiety builds up and you become tired, both of those are indications of how good of a player you are, or otherwise, how consistent of a player you are.

Like... OOPS I missed a note and it takes me until the next beat to get back on rhythm, but I play the map flawlessly from there on, whilst the other guy made wrong movements in several parts of the map. Seems more intuitive that the first guy should get more score than the second.
Whether I'm exaggerating or not, combo scoring still undermines accuracy as we've already seen iJinjin get a 501k and an S all because of the new scoring system. I was just illustrating the effect more clearly.

Chokes happen with or without combo scoring, this isn't good reasoning. It's better to favor overall consistency rather than combo consistency, and this new system clearly favors the latter.

Seems more intuitive that the first guy should get more score than the second.
You mean the guy with 70% acc?
Halogen-

Kernaus wrote:

Also i mentionned it already but please, PLEASE, make the MAX ratio count on the final grade of the play, it has an effect in stepmania, it has an effect in LR2, i don't see why it shouldn't be the case in osu!mania
It only counts for the purpose of a AAAA, but nothing else. You can AAA with 100% perfects and 0% marvs and receive 100% of the DP% -- meaning it actually does not count for the final grade.
Kernaus

Halogen- wrote:

Kernaus wrote:

Also i mentionned it already but please, PLEASE, make the MAX ratio count on the final grade of the play, it has an effect in stepmania, it has an effect in LR2, i don't see why it shouldn't be the case in osu!mania
It only counts for the purpose of a AAAA, but nothing else. You can AAA with 100% perfects and 0% marvs and receive 100% of the DP% -- meaning it actually does not count for the final grade.
oh, well thanks for the correction, i always thought that the MA actually counted in the DP%
tkk

Vygatron wrote:

lpddemon wrote:

good news for me :)
stupud
hey
Shoegazer
Alright, really long post incoming.

Not going to say much about the mod thing because I don't really have a constructive enough opinion to say anything. LNs seem fine.

I do have reservations with the scoring component however.

This is how osu!mania ScoreV2 currently works:

How does it work currently?

  1. 20% of the 1m is (combo / 10 + 1) * base_hit_values.
  2. 80% of the 1m is accuracy ^ 10.
Combo
The combo component is probably easier to talk about because it shows a decent amount of effect overall - there are a few problems with a combo-based proportion, mainly the fact that it does not take into account the frequency of misses (though this is for more extreme) AND the position of misses in a given chart.

In a chart with consistent difficulty (i.e. the chance of missing is the same throughout the entire chart) - which are common, there's a good chance where you can miss right in the middle and if you fully SSS (all 300g) the chart otherwise, you'd only get 25% of the combo score if you SSS'd the entire chart. That is the equivalent of 150K, which is almost certainly a decisive victory for the other team. Of course, this is the most extreme case, but the fact that you can take that much damage from just a single mistake in the chart is very much overkill. This tends to have similar effects even if you don't miss right in the middle, too.

I think a combo-based mechanic is fine if it's done properly, and changing the proportions to make combo even smaller is more of a band-aid, rather than a fix. I think the problem lies in the fact that combo is not scaled in something similar to a logarithmic scale (obviously not to that magnitude, but you get the idea). Dividing combo by 10 doesn't solve the problem, so I think it would be fine to get rid of the "/ 10" thing. I'm not sure what exponent you can use to scale down larger combos and make smaller combos matter relatively more, but I think it would be a good start to use something like that to scale it down.

Having a exponential to scale down larger combos will also help with the location of misses too, it makes the location of misses matter less, and it also punishes players who miss consistently in harder areas (which is the general case) against players who can smash through harder areas but missed one note in a much easier area.

This current combo component is good if you're trying to strongly enforce consistency/FCs, but the metagame has not shifted enough for FCs to be taken as absolute absolute importance, unlike osu! standard. Even if you scale larger combos down with an exponential, it would still make FCs important, but at least the round is still salvageable.

I don't have any practical examples on hand, but judging from most people's screenshots, it seems to be a very extreme direction that not many people like. Again though, I think a combo-based mechanic would work fine if done properly, so it just needs some tweaking.

So that's for combo.

Accuracy
While accuracy^10 didn't seem like much on paper, but the difference was really substantial when I looked at the numbers. This is what the accuracy component would look like - there's also a 1mil equivalent for easier comparison.

For a comparison, a 96% on score v1 is about 850K on average (it's 664K with scorev2, scaled). You can argue that v1 and v2 are not strictly comparable, but it's moreso to show how much of a drop in score scorev2 could potentially bring with just a 4% drop.

The problem with this is that the exponent used is far too strong of an exponential to use. It might be fine for earlier tournament rounds (forces players to be a lot more consistent and accurate with charts that they should be very much comfortable with), but the exponential is most definitely too great for something like semi-finals/finals, where there is a massive variance in performance across multiple teams. A player who can't get 94%+ on any of the maps in the finals/semi-finals mappool (which is very much viable given the diversity of the mappools) would essentially be dead-weight and would more than likely lose the round unless he has very strong teammates to back him up - players who'd get about 98.8% on average against three players with 97%. That difference is massive and it makes for more blowouts and less variance, which goes against what score v2 is mainly implemented for.

So the main problem is the magnitude of the exponential - but you also want to make the gaps between a 95% and 96% noticeable enough to be noticeably larger than a 99% and 100%. I guess a mediatory point would be something like accuracy^(n-accuracy)? This is what it looks like for accuracy^(6-accuracy).


A 96% with that looks more similar to the one in scorev1, and the drop seems more reasonable, too. The main drawback is that the difference is pretty minute compared to accuracy^5, but I think using a base like that would be a good start. You could do something like accuracy^(7-(2 * accuracy)), etc. as well.

Again, this current system would be fine if you really want players to be deadly consistent and all-rounders, but I think encouraging people to do it to that much of a magnitude is far too much and is too much of a shift compared to the current meta. I think a subtler magnitude is more applicable and will create a finesse that creates more variance and excitement than frustration and blowouts.

That should be all. I'm sorry if not many of my thoughts are coherent, but I have a really bad headache as I'm typing this and I admittedly didn't plan on writing this much to begin with. Hope you can put these thoughts into consideration.
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