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osu!mania ScoreV2 live!

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lenpai
everything looks great would love to see how miss counts and combos will turn out now

sharing the same sentiments as everyone does with lane cover multipliers
Clitoria
rip
coursaunt
Will current scores be changed when this is released?
Bunnrei

coursaunt wrote:

Will current scores be changed when this is released?
probably dam smoogi ninja'd
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

coursaunt wrote:

Will current scores be changed when this is released?
No. That hasn't been discussed yet.
FrenzyLi
I think to address Halogen's concern,

HR, NC and DT should give x1.25 bonus. x1.06 is underrated considering that lane cover is also x1.06. I'll test the system later to see if a number between x1.25 and x1.06 works.
Tornspirit


Ummmmmmm.

This doesn't seem right. Score gap between pew and snipers seems WAY too big.
Elementaires
very bad, this isnt how VSRG should be



Why does Musty have the SAME score than Todestrieb with more than 10% less accuracy, more than 100 misses, and less combo?

no sense...
Ayachi-
.
Halogen-
He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.
Kernaus
>mods multiplier
>HD gives bonus score
>DT and HR give bonus score
>S rank is still easy as fuck to get
>we still dont have SM rates


Please get your priorities straight.
Elementaires

Halogen- wrote:

He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.
I asked him and told me he made the changes (for the test)
and everyone in the room did
Kuo Kyoka
this is bad tbh
i like the old system more
many games used 1000000 as max score, and that goes well for me
Halogen-

Elementaires wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.
I asked him and told me he made the changes (for the test)
and everyone in the room did
There's definitely something wonky going on there -- there's literally no conceivable way for that score to be higher, haha
Reimo
HD/FI/FL gives 1.06x score multipliers... Why?????
SurfChu85
Though lane cover mods are quite useful (since they make reading a good amount of patterns easier, *cough* my 6th Dan pass *cough*)


but multipliers on them? No, thanks.
Jole

smoogipooo wrote:

[*] Mods are back! NF/EZ/HT give 0.5x score multipliers and DT/HR/HD/FI/FL give 1.06x score multipliers.
FrenzyLi
How about if for any x0.1 speedup of the music/beatmap, you get extra x0.05 multiplier? That way DT/NC are x1.25 by current standards.

If the engine allows x1.2 speedup that means i can submit scores on x1.10 multiplier and get new pp calculation if the score exceeds previous submitted scores.
Areha11Fz
wow,

bad idea ;w;
FrenzyLi
Reply to Areha11Fz:

Which of them are bad? You can list them and voice your improvements and opinions.
Domblade
No. It just ruins the meaning of accuracy with the mods giving multipliers, same for the added combo rewarding. No.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Elementaires wrote:

very bad, this isnt how VSRG should be



Why does Musty have the SAME score than Todestrieb with more than 10% less accuracy, more than 100 misses, and less combo?

no sense...
Yeah what this makes no sense to me either, something's definitely wonky as was pointed out earlier.
Xylo-
HD should be just reworked tbh, the amount of covered space is ridiculous after it grows to maximum, if it was a fixed amount, it'd be much better in my opinion.
Not to mention the amount of the multiplier for HR/DT is just funny and not worth going for it.
rezbit
Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
I don't necessarily find it bad that HD and FI are harder for some players than others. The same rule stands for all other game modes - some players find playing with HD much easier in osu!standard than without it. However if you want to be a perfectionist then you better get practicing reading differently.
FrenzyLi
So:
  1. do not give visual mod multiplier
  2. enable fixed HD lane cover (or as separate mod which gives no visual mod bonus)
  3. stepmania-like rate system (not just 150% and 75% but also 140% 130% 120%... and respective multiplier) and pp
  4. wonky score (? _ ?)
Vygatron
visual mod multipliers aren't fair in mania what are you doing
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

rezbit wrote:

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.
Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking feedback, and we have lots of time to make changes.

Also guys, we're not just patching things up. We're aware that HR needs a rework, and we're brainstorming changes right now, do NOT be afraid to suggest us breaking changes - we will consider them.
Reikokaz
http://www.strawpoll.me/10482380
Just leaving this one here o/ :D
Also if you want to add the DT and HR modifier pls increase it since 0.06 isn't beneficial for any kind of player especially on harder map.
I personally also don't like the scoring system how it is right now, since Mania shouldn't be judged by combo.
Wh1teh

smoogipooo wrote:

I don't necessarily find it bad that HD and FI are harder for some players than others. The same rule stands for all other game modes - some players find playing with HD much easier in osu!standard than without it. However if you want to be a perfectionist then you better get practicing reading differently.
Should I get bonus points for reading slabs, arrows or orbs? Should I get bonus points for playing with background enabled? no. That would be stupid, because that's just a preference, like hd,fi,fl are.

E: also the "we have always done it like this" argument is just toxic, referring to your "other game modes" argument.
FrenzyLi
hey wh1teh i can play standard with different skins too, where HD etc have multipliers :)
so how should we break this logic? like how is mania different in terms of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)
Kernaus

smoogipooo wrote:

rezbit wrote:

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.
Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking feedback, and we have lots of time to make changes.

Also guys, we're not just patching things up. We're aware that HR needs a rework, and we're brainstorming changes right now, do NOT be afraid to suggest us breaking changes - we will consider them.
If you're gonna give a bonus to DT, you might as well implement SM rates, DT itself is already a rate so it shouldn't be that hard to implement.

S rank is not a valuable target compared to other VSRGs, it should be around 97% with at least a minimum score required in order to ACTUALLY make the MAX ratio count.


the combo scoring as you proposed it here is way too important. 99% scores with really good ratio : 700k score... really?


EDIT :

FrenzyLi wrote:

like how is mania different in terms of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)
you dont read on mania like you do in standard, HD in mania forces you to read much faster and allows you to have less objects to process on screen, this is not the case in STD, HD in STD makes you forced to heavily read the circles that appear rather than reading the approach circles to time your hits and it very often makes the circles blend together making it harder to read.
Halogen-

Wh1teh wrote:

Should I get bonus points for reading slabs, arrows or orbs? Should I get bonus points for playing with background enabled? no. That would be stupid, because that's just a preference, like hd,fi,fl are.
you're reaching a bit here and you know it.

as far as suggestions for HR: the timing windows are simply too tight as it stands right now to make use of the score multiplier. Either the window needs to be adjusted (less preferable) or the bonus needs to be increased (more preferable).
Wh1teh

FrenzyLi wrote:

hey wh1teh i can play standard with different skins too, where HD etc have multipliers :)
so how should we break this logic? like how is mania different in terms of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)
There are few reasons why I quit std. Unbalanced mods and combo scoring, now they are coming back to haunt me. fml
FrenzyLi

Reikokaz wrote:

http://www.strawpoll.me/10482380
Just leaving this one here o/ :D
Also if you want to add the DT and HR modifier pls increase it since 0.06 isn't beneficial for any kind of player especially on harder map.
I personally also don't like the scoring system how it is right now, since Mania shouldn't be judged by combo.
100% accuracy score, 0% combo score?
lpddemon
good news for me :)
Vygatron

lpddemon wrote:

good news for me :)
stupud
Halogen-
also, i'll be narcissistic for a moment and bring this into play: i'm arguably one of the strongest players with regards to accuracy on 4K, and i'm not fully opposed to a system that has a bit more of a combo-emphasis. I'm not advocating a situation where someone with a 92% FC beats a 99% with a miss, but I do feel like there are certain situations where combo should hold a bit more relevance and it simply doesn't in the current score system.

With then new changes, those who have good LN abilities also get rewarded, which I think is great. AiAe is a good example of where I think Score V2 should make a positive impact -- there are numerous players who have substantial combos and AiAe [SHD] is not exactly something that anyone will be renowned for their fantastic accuracy on (unless they're cheating, of course). Players who manage to break into four digits of combo on that should be rewarded a bit more than players like myself, who struggle just to get far into the three digits on a good run.

Oboro is also probably another ranked map that could see a good shake-up with the new LN mechanics.

I do think that the formula is a bit on the extreme side at the moment and I know that a few people have ideas on how to make it a -bit- better while still having that combo orientation.
Loctav
The current way multipliers are balanced around are to make them work for the upcoming MWC. We are aware that giving multipliers to visual mods is a risky touch, especially due to lacking alternatives to compete against visually obstructing modiers in terms of map ranking. If we (ever) make this scoring to replace the current one, we will put efforts to rebalance multipliers around to make them work with other competing modifiers, of whichs difficulty increase is not based on altering the visual perception of the beatmap.

For now, it is working fine for the structure I am planning for the MWC and we will test this out and then make adjustments based on it.

Fwiw, I would ask everyone to mostly test the 20/80 ratio balance. We won't negate the meaning of combo entirely, but I am aware that basing the score solely on accuracy also is not serving the purpose as it should. I feel like right now, it pans out pretty solid, but if you are encountering situations, where the scores are not resulting the supposed rank placement, because the combo weights too much, too less, etcetc., just let us know and try to bring up a viable idea of how it actually should be, so we can adjust around that.
Reikokaz

FrenzyLi wrote:

100% accuracy score, 0% combo score?
Nah not like that, just keep the old system and modify it a bit
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