03:07 Monstrata: i can link timestamps with the jumps if that helps
03:07 Kagetsu: sec
03:09 Kagetsu: did you change this? 00:38:356 -
03:09 Monstrata: yea ppl were complaining about the wide angles
03:09 Monstrata: and the pentagon thing
03:09 Kagetsu: oh well
03:09 Kagetsu: that's ok
03:09 Monstrata: ok cool
03:09 Kagetsu: 00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) -
03:09 Kagetsu: those could be nerfed i think
03:09 Monstrata: the back and forth angle made it easier to snap to than 144 degree stuff
03:10 Monstrata: mmm
03:10 Monstrata: i think up to 00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1) - is fine
03:10 Monstrata: maybe last 3 objects
03:10 Monstrata: cuz its kinda like, getting bigger
03:10 Monstrata: actually maybe i can make spacing increase more noticeably and start with lower ds? lol
03:11 Kagetsu: uh
03:11 Kagetsu: i think that would work
03:11 Kagetsu: like representing the build up
03:11 Monstrata: yea yea
03:12 Kagetsu: i don't think the spacing change should be THAT sudden
03:12 Monstrata: okay, can agree on that. and it fits my concept
03:12 Kagetsu: also i think they are currently wider than the ones on 02:55:471 -
03:13 Kagetsu: that doesn't make much sense i guess
03:14 Monstrata: the ones on 02:55:576 (2,1) - are not as big individually but some of the difficulty is cuz i emphasize white tick here with the beatpairing
03:14 Monstrata: since imo its the highest point of the song
03:15 Monstrata: before switching to the anime mapping lol
03:16 Kagetsu: is it necessary to "emphasize" the white ticks though
03:16 Monstrata: okay fixed 00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - . the last few jumps i just kept the same, but made the first few a lot smaller
03:16 Kagetsu: i find them equal in terms of strength
03:17 Monstrata: its cuz of the guitar too, every white tick is a hgiher pitch
03:17 Monstrata: also 02:53:686 (1) - kinda sets it up to emphasize white ticks cuz of the drum
03:17 Monstrata: like i understand drum doubles to red + white, but i think players still have the idea that white tick is stronger
03:18 Kagetsu: you might want to decrease the sv on that slider as well
03:18 Kagetsu: i don't think it plays smoothly
03:19 Monstrata: i think the SV helps with landing it tho. ur supposed to play it up and down anyways
03:19 Monstrata: and move it really fast
03:20 Kagetsu: wouldn't it work with lower sv anyways?
03:20 Kagetsu: while still keeping your concept
03:20 Kagetsu: 1x to 1.25x to 1.5x
03:20 Kagetsu: or something like that
03:20 Monstrata: it doesn't build enough momentum imo,
03:20 Monstrata: well, i mean i have two other ranked maps that use the same idea which is why i think current slider length works fine too xD
03:21 Monstrata: like basically if i used lower speeds, imo players wouldn't have enough momentum for the jumps and i want to make the jumps the high point
03:22 Kagetsu: from what i've seen on the replays, players tend to fail there
03:22 Kagetsu: because they can't track the slider ball
03:23 Monstrata: i can land it pretty well xP.
03:23 Monstrata: how about i make the sliders closer
03:23 Monstrata: i think part of the reason is the jump from slider to slider
03:24 Kagetsu: i don't think that's the problem, the high sv allows you to hit the sliderhead anyway, because of slider leniency
03:26 Monstrata: mmmm i really think current SV is still fine. i'm okay with reducing a bit like to 1,90 or something, but imo players can track it
03:26 Monstrata: i really think shifting the heads is a better fix tho cuz then ppl dont have to snap to the head and adjust their speed again
03:27 Kagetsu: uh well "tracking" isn't the problem, it's more like tracking it in time
03:27 Monstrata: yea
03:27 Kagetsu: the slider isn't very lenient at the moment
03:27 Monstrata: cuz right now
03:27 Monstrata: 02:51:908 (1,1) -
03:27 Monstrata: theres still a signifncant rightward movement
03:27 Monstrata: so player has to shift from that to basically completely up/down
03:28 Monstrata: im basically suggesting something like
03:28 Monstrata:
https://puu.sh/wQOb5.png03:28 Monstrata: where the shift is now a lot more vertical so players don't have to change direction as much between sliders
03:28 Monstrata: and can focus on increasing speed
03:30 Kagetsu: well that could work,tho reducing the sv just a little bit might help as well
03:31 Monstrata: reduced the fastest one to 1.85 i guess the middle one i'll use 1.425
03:32 Kagetsu: uh okay
03:32 Kagetsu: i care a lot about these sliders actually
03:32 Kagetsu: because there's also a bpm shift
03:33 Monstrata: yea. i already explained bpm shift is small, there are a lot of shfits etc... i think the change should be adequate now
03:33 Kagetsu: i mean the offset changes too
03:33 Monstrata: okay yea i can land this easily now lol
03:33 Kagetsu: so it isn't actually that small
03:34 Kagetsu: players would be expecting the slider to be on 02:53:653 -
03:34 Monstrata: like i just played it twice and fc'ed it twice. lemme do it 3rd time so its confirmed playable right :eyes:
03:34 Monstrata: sliderhead leniency though
03:34 Monstrata: sliderhead leniency isn't associated with OD too
03:34 Kagetsu: not yet
03:34 Monstrata: so we shouldn't consider it imo,
03:35 Kagetsu: i mean the problem isn't about hitting the slider head
03:35 Kagetsu: i think i've already mentioned that xD
03:35 Monstrata: but thats kinda the song itself xP and i think when you see the change it'll be fine anyways lol
03:36 Kagetsu: ye, it's the song itself but that's not an excuse to make it less predictable than it could be imo
03:37 Monstrata:
https://puu.sh/wQOqm.png03:37 Monstrata:
https://puu.sh/wQOqE.png03:37 Monstrata: there is a bigger spacing to help with that too
03:38 Monstrata: other than that its like, i lowered sv, made the transition nearly only vertical with very little rightward movement
03:38 Monstrata: and its literally easy enough for me to fc without much issue lol
03:38 Kagetsu: alright
03:40 Kagetsu: well the other jumps i find problematic are 01:01:580 - those
03:41 Kagetsu: i think it would be better to reduce the density on those patterns
03:42 Kagetsu: i don't think stuff like 01:01:580 (1) - is actually being emphasized atm
03:42 Kagetsu: because of the thing we previously talked about
03:43 Monstrata: i can do a bigger jump onto 00:58:150 (1) -
03:43 Monstrata: but i really dont think rhythm simplifiation makes sense like
03:43 Monstrata: considering the intensity
03:43 Monstrata: it doesn't make sense to simplify any of those circles to 1/2 sliders imo.
03:43 Monstrata: so next best thing is emphasis through spacing and NC
03:44 Monstrata: one thing tho
03:44 Monstrata: 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - you should also consider it as a "section"
03:44 Kagetsu: yes
03:44 Monstrata: the movement is up and down and the movement is unique to this sound
03:45 Monstrata: like i said earier, i don't think ptuting specific emphasis is the best way to go too, so i think current'y its fine too if you consider emphasis by unique movement and sections
03:45 Monstrata: i also reduced spacing by quite a bit especially for stuff like 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
03:46 Kagetsu: uh
03:46 Kagetsu: but isn't about spacing imo
03:47 Monstrata: spacing and density are related
03:47 Kagetsu: yeah
03:47 Monstrata: i don't think density is changeable here so i compromised on spacing
03:47 Monstrata: i hope that makes sense xP
03:47 Kagetsu: they are related
03:47 Kagetsu: why isn't it changeable
03:47 Kagetsu: i think it makes sense to reduce density if you see it as a whole
03:48 Monstrata: cuz like i said, changing the circles to sliders doesn't fit the intensity anymore. like the clicking rhythm no longer becomes reflective of the map's increased drum frequency
03:48 Kagetsu: the way it stands now doesn't make it feel as a section in terms of rhythm
03:49 Monstrata: then let me at least explain my way and see if it makes more sense
03:49 Monstrata: 00:49:081 (1,2,3,4) - 00:49:949 (1,2,3,4) - etc... all are mapped to circles because of vocals
03:49 Monstrata: which bleeds into 00:50:819 (1,2,3,4,1) -
03:50 Monstrata: 00:56:007 (3,4,5,6) - vocal
03:50 Monstrata: 00:56:864 (3,4,5,6) - etc... and theres heavy drumming
03:50 Monstrata: 00:57:721 (3,4,5,6,1,2) - so as a result it leads into 00:57:721 (3,4,5,6,1,2) -
03:50 Monstrata: if i change the rhythm everything else doesn't fit anymore or is seen as inconsistent
03:50 Kagetsu: i think they all have the same drumming
03:50 Monstrata: which is why i think i can't compromise the density
03:51 Kagetsu: for example 00:56:650 (2) -
03:51 Kagetsu: you're not even mapping vocals here
03:51 Monstrata: but pay attention to vocal
03:51 Kagetsu: 00:56:757 - is way louder in terms of vocals
03:51 Monstrata: theres a "ch"
03:51 Monstrata: also switching to red tick emphasis isn't good cuz of drum
03:52 Monstrata: it just doesn't fit imo because you can clearly hear the vocals are denser halfway through every measure
03:52 Monstrata: 00:59:022 - 00:59:444 - vocals aren't dense 00:59:444 - 00:59:866 - vocals are dense
03:52 Monstrata: theres a clear distinction
03:53 Kagetsu: i honestly think that there's no difference between mapping it like
http://i.imgur.com/ZTuRDjN.png or
http://i.imgur.com/BI8fvUD.png03:53 Monstrata: wat
03:53 Monstrata: theres a huge difference, pls consider vocals xP
03:53 Monstrata: vocal frequency
03:53 Kagetsu: vocals are all over the place tho
03:54 Monstrata: but theyr clearly doubling halfway through the white tick
03:54 Monstrata: listen at 75% speed or something so its more reflective of normal songs. the rhythm makes perfect sense, and your suggestion is ???
03:54 Kagetsu: ya but they would make a lot more sense considering the intensity of 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
03:54 Monstrata: your reasoning for using lower density is already very weak
03:55 Monstrata: im entertaining it anyways in hopes i can explain to you the spacing nerfs are adequate
03:55 Monstrata:
03:55 Monstrata: they don't make that much more sense
12 circles is fine. as well you already have very little in terms of argument for density
03:56 Kagetsu: my reasoning is for the sake of emphasizing the strong beats
03:56 Monstrata: and i also mentioned the whole 8 circle jump sequence has a unique movement to it
03:56 Monstrata: but at the same time creating emphasis onto the white tick also makes it more difficult no? when the bpm is higher the emphasis is blurred
03:56 Monstrata:
03:56 Kagetsu: so?
03:57 Monstrata: rather than considering emphasis on 01:01:580 (1) - consider emphasis through the entire section
03:57 Monstrata: they are all more or less the same spacing
03:57 Monstrata: and i already nerfed the spacing by quite a bit
03:57 Monstrata:
03:57 Kagetsu: it doesn't matter whether it's unique if the player can't actually feel it's actually unique lol
03:57 Monstrata: the player can though?
03:57 Monstrata: 01:01:151 (3,4,5,6,1) - the flow is completely different
03:58 Monstrata: 01:01:151 (3,4,5,6,1) - is clockwise rotational
03:58 Monstrata: the next section is a different zigzag flow
03:58 Monstrata: err counterclockwise rotational*
03:58 Kagetsu: 01:01:580 (1,2) - still belongs to the previous pattern
03:58 Kagetsu: if it wasn't for the nc
03:58 Monstrata: not when you consider 3
03:59 Monstrata: and exactly thats also the point
03:59 Kagetsu: you couldn't tell the difference
03:59 Kagetsu: but the change should happen at 1
03:59 Monstrata: the NC helps with identifying the pattern split
03:59 Monstrata: then
03:59 Monstrata: 01:01:151 (3,4,5,6) - reduce spacing for
03:59 Kagetsu: because there's where the music change
03:59 Monstrata: is the best option
03:59 Monstrata: because then its obvious
03:59 Monstrata: the next section is emphasized
03:59 Monstrata: ?
03:59 Kagetsu: oh well
03:59 Kagetsu: if you're willing to reduce the spacing on those
03:59 Kagetsu: then it's ok for me
03:59 Monstrata: okay
03:59 Monstrata: fixing
04:00 Monstrata: will reduce on 01:00:294 (3,4,5,6) - too for consistency
04:00 Kagetsu: ya that's obvious
04:01 Kagetsu: also why're those 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
04:01 Kagetsu: using the same kind of "flow"
04:01 Kagetsu: oh also 00:52:216 - whistle pls ty
04:01 Monstrata: fixed whistle
04:02 Monstrata: 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - wasn't as significant so i didnt map it in a way where it stood out as much as the jumps we talked about earlier
04:02 Kagetsu: well the whistle issue has been fixed, i guess i don't need to hold the veto anymore
04:02 Kagetsu: right
04:03 Monstrata: okay
04:03 Monstrata: lemme finish nerfing these circles
04:03 Monstrata: gotta keep consistency lol
04:04 Kagetsu: hmm kinda didn't get your reasoning
04:04 Kagetsu: on those
04:04 Kagetsu: 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
04:05 Monstrata: the 8 note drum sequence didnt sound as important as like 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
04:05 Monstrata: anyways for uh
04:05 Monstrata: 00:50:819 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - i wehtn with zigzag flow and 00:54:304 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - i went with rotational
04:05 Monstrata: so theres some variety there too
04:05 Kagetsu: ya, that's why i was thinking it was inconsistent
04:05 Kagetsu: like the zig zag is kinda random
04:06 Monstrata: but ye i think separating them by visual patterns and NC is good when im not making them super influential
04:06 Kagetsu: well anyways it's not like it was too important anyway
04:06 Monstrata: 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this? but its like 1>3>5>7 ad 2>4>6>8 are following ladder sequence
04:06 Monstrata: so i don't think its thaat random
04:06 Kagetsu: it's up to you if you want to change those
04:06 Monstrata: id prefer to keep
04:07 Kagetsu: why you had to use such a linear movement here 00:56:221 (5,6,1) -
04:08 Kagetsu: doesn't it look kinda inconsistent and bad in terms of playability?
04:08 Monstrata: mmm its just zigzag movement tho
04:08 Monstrata: consider 4>5
04:08 Monstrata: its the same movement from 6>1
04:08 Monstrata: once you click on 4, you move downward, once you click on 5 you move upward
04:09 Monstrata: once you click on 6 you move downward ad once you click on 1 you move upward so the flow makes sense considering how the circles dictated the player's movement
04:09 Monstrata: anyways i updated ;o
04:09 Kagetsu: no no, actually i think it was my bad
04:09 Kagetsu: i think i moved the circle and the movement was crappy as hell
04:10 Monstrata: oh lo
04:10 Monstrata: okay then, i guess recheck since i updated?
04:10 Monstrata: hopefully theyre good
04:11 Kagetsu: did you reduce the spacing on 01:01:151 (3,4,5,6) - tho
04:11 Monstrata: yea
04:12 Monstrata: 01:01:151 (3,4) - pretty different from 01:01:580 (1,2) -
04:13 Kagetsu: uh
04:13 Kagetsu: yeah
04:14 Kagetsu: i remember it was harder now
04:16 Monstrata: yea
04:16 Kagetsu: what was your reasoning for this one 02:55:893 - again?
04:17 Kagetsu: i can't find the post lmao
04:17 Monstrata:
p/614811104:18 Monstrata: could also check hobbes discussion on
p/6145682 etc... i guess since its kinda relevant
04:18 Kagetsu: don't you think the rotation changes from 1 to 2?
04:18 Monstrata: the angle is the same as all the other jumps
04:19 Kagetsu: i mean i know you don't want to change this because it would destroy your pattern
04:19 Kagetsu: but i think it could be done better
04:20 Kagetsu: something easier to hit
04:21 Kagetsu: also... could you nerf the distance from 02:56:210 (2) - to 02:56:316 (1) - ?
04:22 Monstrata:
https://puu.sh/wQPDA.png04:22 Monstrata: it feels fine honestly, like the flow is good xP
04:22 Monstrata: and mmm
04:22 Monstrata: 02:56:316 (1) - i really want to end on a strong note xP
04:22 Kagetsu: it can still be strong with less spacing than the current one
04:23 Monstrata: i can reduce, but not by much basically xP
04:23 Monstrata: cuz imo its very justified as the final note
04:24 Monstrata:
https://puu.sh/wQPHK.png04:24 Monstrata: for visual patter
04:24 Monstrata: n
04:25 Monstrata: because of the structure, people are expecting to jump to 02:55:471 (1) - anyways so imo its not a whole lot bigger than ppls expectations
04:25 Kagetsu: uh i guess
04:26 Kagetsu: it doesn't change too much anyway
04:26 Kagetsu: but i'm actually not as worried about that jump
04:26 Kagetsu: it's just that i find the pattern uhh idk, kinda forced
04:27 Monstrata: well, its the highest point in the map, and theres literally like 6 measures of guitars / drums that build up to it
04:27 Monstrata: so i think its fair to use this patterning
04:28 Kagetsu: when i said forced i'm not talking about the distance, but rather about how the jumps are arranged
04:28 Kagetsu: it's the arrangement the thing i find forced, not the distance itself
04:28 Monstrata: theyre emphasizing the white tick like i said earlier, cuz of the guitar going up and down in pitch
04:29 Kagetsu: ye, that's true but the intensity in the song is increasing too
04:29 Kagetsu: i think it should be more like a build up
04:30 Monstrata: the whole section is the highlight with the final circle ending it imo
04:30 Monstrata: cuz its similar to the earlier sliders
04:30 Monstrata: where the whole slider represents one "level" of building up
04:32 Kagetsu: uh
04:32 Kagetsu: the guitar is fairly constant tho
04:32 Monstrata: pitch xP
04:33 Monstrata: and also the drums from before also lead people to think of white tick as stronger
04:33 Kagetsu: i mean, within their own level as you said
04:33 Monstrata: 02:53:686 - 02:53:908 - etc..
04:33 Kagetsu: like here is constant 02:50:353 (1) -
04:33 Kagetsu: then it's stronger here, but still constant 02:51:908 (1) -
04:33 Kagetsu: and so on
04:33 Monstrata: well, cuz its sliders xP.
04:33 Kagetsu: it's just that i don't think that's the case for the jumps
04:33 Monstrata: i think the jump sequence makes sense right now
04:34 Monstrata: and i think its justified to emphasize white ticks and have this arrangement honestly
04:34 Monstrata: already reduced spacing by a fair bit to compromise
04:34 Monstrata: so zzz
04:34 Kagetsu: honestly, higher spacing would make it easier to play lol
04:34 Kagetsu: but ya whatever
04:36 Monstrata: okay i can update ?
04:36 Monstrata: to fix the spacing for 02:56:316 (1) -
04:37 Kagetsu: sure
04:37 Monstrata: kk updated
04:46 Monstrata: hope its good now owo
04:46 Kagetsu: uh
04:47 Kagetsu: i'm happy with the outcome but i still think this is too much lol 00:58:150 -
04:47 Kagetsu: wait
04:47 Kagetsu: wrong timestamp
04:47 Kagetsu: i meant this 01:01:580 -
04:47 Monstrata: too much as in
04:48 Monstrata: 01:01:151 (3,4,5,6,1) - still too similar?
04:48 Monstrata: cuz i can move 01:01:473 (6) - up so it looks more different
04:49 Kagetsu: ye, you might also want to reduce the spacing on this pattern 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
04:49 Monstrata: mmm okay
04:49 Monstrata: i'll move
04:49 Monstrata: 01:01:473 (6) -
04:49 Monstrata: wait
04:49 Monstrata: 01:01:687 (2,4,6,8) -
04:49 Monstrata: down a bit more
04:49 Monstrata:
https://puu.sh/wQQl6.jpg04:51 Monstrata: also made 01:02:116 (6,7) - a bit smaller too cuz they were standing out
04:51 Kagetsu: ye that's an issue too
04:52 Monstrata: ye fixing it to be consistent
04:52 Monstrata: tell me when i can update i guess
04:52 Kagetsu: should also reduce the previous pattern?
04:52 Kagetsu: so that the last one stands out?
04:52 Monstrata: previous one?
04:52 Monstrata: 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - ?
04:52 Monstrata: sure
04:53 Kagetsu: ya, the one who uses the same flow
04:53 Kagetsu: but less intense
04:53 Monstrata: i reduced it a bit but not too much cuz imo its still kinda obvious the second one is bigger
04:54 Kagetsu: oh
04:55 Kagetsu: is it necessary that the visual distance between 01:02:008 (5) - and 01:02:223 (7) - is so different?
04:55 Monstrata: im fixing that
04:55 Kagetsu: when comparing to previous patterning
04:55 Monstrata: hang on
04:55 Monstrata:
https://puu.sh/wQQsN.png04:55 Monstrata: less different now
04:55 Monstrata: i think
04:56 Monstrata: i mean visually its still different cuz the aesthetic fits the map's concept imo
04:56 Kagetsu: ya i mean
04:56 Kagetsu: we're not looking for equal spacing either
04:56 Kagetsu: just not as different as it was
04:56 Monstrata: yea.
04:56 Kagetsu: i guess it's ok now
04:56 Monstrata: i think this is fair now
04:56 Monstrata: sweet
04:57 Kagetsu: update it then
04:58 Monstrata: kk updated
05:01 Kagetsu: alright
05:01 Kagetsu: gonna write something then
05:01 Monstrata: ok sweet