Monstrata - Today at 7:02 AM
theres been 50 pages of discussion, surely there is mroe to say than that...
Kagetsu - Today at 7:04 AM
that's the only issue that comes to my mind
i just didn't want to post a wallmod
because they're useless
anyways gtg
Monstrata - Today at 7:26 AM
so is what you posted...
so how do you want me to counter your veto? just finding anothe rbn?
your only reason was "i dont think its rankable"
Monstrata - Today at 8:22 PM
I am going to get Kurai to rebubble after replying to your mod
Ok?
Your concern about playability severely underestimated people's skills sadly
Kagetsu - Today at 8:32 PM
it's okay
that's in the rules
i can't do anything
it wouldn't be fair otherwise
Monstrata - Today at 8:35 PM
The unfair thing is that you haven't given any good reasons lol. I could have said any map was unplayable unless ppl get 100% and are able to consistently fc a section 15 times in a row
The idea is the same. Arbitrary values that you're trying to attach to quantify something being unplayable
Anyways spoke with some qats, doesn't seem like the veto will float when the playability case is so weak xp
I just hope u weren't trying to play the hero by popping alien lol it's clearly backfired
Kagetsu - Today at 8:39 PM
playing the hero?
i just think the map is unplayable
it might be subjective but there's that
i don't have any other concern
as i've already said, i find the map concept cool
it's just wrongly executed imo
Monstrata - Today at 9:00 PM
wrongly executed? then what would make it well executed? if the spacing was smaller? that has nothing to do with the concept :stuck_out_tongue:
basically my counter argument to your claim is "the map is playable" but look at it from this perspective
I could go to some random 6 star map and veto it with the reasoning "i don't think this map is playable, I consider a map playable if the scoreboard is filled with 99%/SS's and people can fc the largest jumps consistently 5 times in a row"
what's the counter argument? "but the map is playable"...
you see why the veto doesn't sound strong at all.
Kagetsu - Today at 9:03 PM
uh but that wasn't what i said
i basically said that there's no player who can properly play the map
98 acc is a reasonable number i think
Monstrata - Today at 9:04 PM
thats not a reasonable number at all... 98 acc is being able to play it very proficiently, and fc'ing it
we have 95% accs, 93% accs, you quoted the scoreboard for Alien when it was loved
so you should ahve seen the nunmber of ppl with A's and over 90% acct plays at least, no?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:05 PM
but what's the point on getting something that can't be played by anyone ranked
Monstrata - Today at 9:05 PM
it can be played. it just has't been fc'ed yet
Kagetsu - Today at 9:05 PM
and when i say "played" i mean play it proficiently
there are some maps that are playable but don't have an fc on their ranks though
Monstrata - Today at 9:06 PM
because maps can be there to challenge people while still be rankable. there are no fc's on glorious crown, there were no fc's on freedom dive / insert old hard maps etc...
Kagetsu - Today at 9:07 PM
glorious crown is playable though
i do think it's possible to get 98 acc
Monstrata - Today at 9:08 PM
im not quoting it because its playable. im quoting it because the intention of such maps is to challenge players
people aren't pushing it forward because "its playable" people are pushing it forward because "it challenges players"
do you only play games where you can easily play the levels?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:09 PM
there's a difference between challenging and impossible(edited)
Monstrata - Today at 9:09 PM
theres a reason you put HD/HR/etc... or play maps that are above your skill level, to challenge yourself and improve
clearly alien is challenging and not impossible
there is literally zero evidence to support alien being "impossible"
Kagetsu - Today at 9:10 PM
i could say the same about it being playable
it's all subjective
Monstrata - Today at 9:10 PM
thats not a good excuse :stuck_out_tongue:
"its all subjective" is what people do when they disagree with something but don't know how to analyze it or explain it
when you veto, you need to engage in this discussion though. that Xexxar pop on after rain basically confirmed that :stuck_out_tongue:
Kagetsu - Today at 9:12 PM
neither is your's
Monstrata - Today at 9:12 PM
i have multiple replays of people who have gotten over 93% acc, people who've passed the map on HR
people who have fc'ed the jumps
opinions on the jumps,
from top 50's
i can give even more reasons, but tell me what do you have aside from "but no one's gotten over 98% so its impossible"
Kagetsu - Today at 9:13 PM
uh
i've already stated some reasons in the map thread
Monstrata - Today at 9:14 PM
like?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:14 PM
the ar not being suitable?
Monstrata - Today at 9:14 PM
what makes you say that?
have you considered the number of milliseconds lost between AR 10 and AR 10.33 or whatever AR you believe is necessary?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:15 PM
can you even play ar 10 though
because i can tell you that the difference is noticeable
kynan said so
Monstrata - Today at 9:16 PM
kynan agreed AR 10 was good though?
i already increased it to AR 10 btw
it was a really recent update from AR 9.7...
Kagetsu - Today at 9:16 PM
no, he said something like 10 was too slow
Monstrata - Today at 9:16 PM
where?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:17 PM
not sure if the post got deleted lol
no, wait
he said 9,7 was too slow
and it's now "fixed" because ar 10
i don't think ar 10 is enough though
Monstrata - Today at 9:18 PM
00:00:000 -
sdfsdf'
p/6145143yes
he said AR 10 so really you have no one to quote, yet
people who clearly have a lot of experience playing high bpm stuff think the new AR is good
Kagetsu - Today at 9:19 PM
because there's nothing better lol
Monstrata - Today at 9:19 PM
so what AR do you think is necessary? have you even compared the AR values?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:20 PM
i play high ar stuff
as well as high bpm maps
Monstrata - Today at 9:20 PM
and i map high AR stuff :stuck_out_tongue:
you're not really answering the question :stuck_out_tongue: and sure you can quote your own experiences but that just shows that your argument really has no basis on the "loved leaderboard" that you quoted as being one of the motivations for your veto :stuck_out_tongue:
Kagetsu - Today at 9:21 PM
why do you spam that emoji tho
it's annoying lmao
and why should i need another person to prove my reasoning
Monstrata - Today at 9:22 PM
because you quoted the scoreboard was your reason :stuck_out_tongue: and right now you have given no evidence that anything on the alien's loved scoreboard has supported your reasoning that the map is impossible
let me just explain to you the AR
indeed, a higher AR can help. but do you know what that higher AR would be?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:23 PM
10.5 would be reasonable
Monstrata - Today at 9:23 PM
no
Kagetsu - Today at 9:23 PM
why not
Monstrata - Today at 9:23 PM
that would be too high mathematically
at 280 bpm
anything over 428 ms will have no bearing on AR
let me explain
Kagetsu - Today at 9:23 PM
but that's what most of 280 bpm dt maps use?
Monstrata - Today at 9:24 PM
at 280 bpm, 428 ms is the nearest time frame that snaps to a rhythm
lets say
01:29:720 - to 01:30:148 -
thats two white ticks
two white ticks spam 428 ms
but theres also the blue tick afterwards to consider, because otherwise when you see the white tick, the previous one will have already faded
in actuality one only needs
AR 10.15 to AR 10.2
https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Beatmap_Editor/Song_Setupwell, that doesn't have every decimal AR but the AR calculator does
because anything over 428 ms will still show as "three white ticks / two beats"
err anything under 428 ms
the effect of lowering the AR to say 10.5 and using 400 ms would mean less time for the player to react, but it wouldn't lower the density of objects on the screen
is the tldr reasoning
omg i keep saying the opposite
the effect on raising the AR to 10.5*
Kagetsu - Today at 9:30 PM
it isn't as complicated as you're saying tho
just pick a 190 bpm 8.5 ar map and play it dt
Monstrata - Today at 9:30 PM
it is if there was literally 4 pages of discussion on it that i guess you didnt read xP
also, the dt argument isn't good
you shouldn't consider other mods to begin with, and additionally, the DT values are too great anyways. you probably just aclimated to those values,
Kagetsu - Today at 9:31 PM
uh i'm just telling you how it feels
playing your map
Monstrata - Today at 9:31 PM
if mappers had a choice of what AR/OD they wanted to attribute to DT values, they wouldn't pick the default ones
so if i played one of your maps and couldn't pass it does that mean i can veto and say its impossible? :stuck_out_tongue: because this is what you're doing right now
since you have't given any evidence outside of your own experience
im trying to show you why the reasoning is flawed and needs more support
(and may convince you that the veto isn't going to float)
Kagetsu - Today at 9:33 PM
but i'm not vetoing it because i can't pass it
Monstrata - Today at 9:33 PM
you're vetoing it because you think its impossible according to yourself...
Kagetsu - Today at 9:33 PM
actually i think i can pass it xD
Monstrata - Today at 9:34 PM
thats good that you can pass. the map is not impossible...
Kagetsu - Today at 9:35 PM
did i say the map is impossible? if so i apologize
Monstrata - Today at 9:35 PM
yes
. and that its not playable. but again, no evidence other than yourself
Kagetsu - Today at 9:36 PM
it being unplayable isn't equal to it being impossible
Monstrata - Today at 9:36 PM
either way though. the intention is the same
"this map isn't playable for me so I'm going to veto it"
Kagetsu - Today at 9:36 PM
that wasn't my reason lmao
Monstrata - Today at 9:37 PM
try doing that on other maps
that was though...
your argument is literally that you think the map is unplayable, therefore it shouldn't be in the ranked section
Kagetsu - Today at 9:37 PM
ye
that's my reasoning
Monstrata - Today at 9:38 PM
try that on any other map.
and yous ee why this reasoning is honestly full of holes :stuck_out_tongue:
Kagetsu - Today at 9:38 PM
people doesn't usually make unplayable maps
Monstrata - Today at 9:39 PM
no my point is
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/444335i could go to this map
and veto it with the line "i think this map is unplayable, therefore it shouldn't be in the ranked section"
what will your response be? probably" but its playable... "
Kagetsu - Today at 9:40 PM
ya
Monstrata - Today at 9:40 PM
yes right?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:40 PM
because it's indeed playable?
Monstrata - Today at 9:40 PM
thats the same idea here
alien is indeed playable.
Kagetsu - Today at 9:40 PM
i don't think thats true
Monstrata - Today at 9:41 PM
so heres the kicker. i can say that too
"i dont think thats true"
for your map
Kagetsu - Today at 9:41 PM
lmao
so i demonstrate you it's playable
Monstrata - Today at 9:42 PM
but how? i don't think its playable unless the leaderboard is all SS's and people can FC the jump section 5 times in a row while playing it through
i could insert any arbitrary "task" that would be required to call it playable
Kagetsu - Today at 9:42 PM
thats not what i asked for, in your case though?
Monstrata - Today at 9:42 PM
in the end, the whole "criteria for calling something playable" is subjective
whatever you asked, is subjective.
Kagetsu - Today at 9:43 PM
i'm asking for something way more factible
Monstrata - Today at 9:43 PM
its not
any more factible
because there is nothing that determines something is more factible or not.
but all that is irrelevant. the fact is. if i said that on your map
the veto wouldn't last because i woulndn't be able to prove it was unplayable
and its going to be the same case here if im reading what qat's are saying correctly
Kagetsu - Today at 9:44 PM
uh but
under that logic wouldn't it be possible to rank anything?
because everything is playable
because no one can demonstrate that something is unplayable
Monstrata - Today at 9:46 PM
you draw the playability line through evidence from top players
and ive quoted multiple evidences that support my claim that the map is indeed playable.
while you don't have anything
Kagetsu - Today at 9:46 PM
it's just the same
i have the alien scoreboard
where the top play was made by a touchscreen player
Monstrata - Today at 9:47 PM
but it wasnt...
Kagetsu - Today at 9:47 PM
uh i don't recall the players name
Monstrata - Today at 9:48 PM
you really sound like you're making stuff up here... you come in and veto a map where people have put countless hours into discussing ideas and concepts, and watched hours of replays and anlyzed literally every part of the map
the least you can do is provide some evidence...
Kagetsu - Today at 9:49 PM
isn't it enough evidence already
Monstrata - Today at 9:50 PM
that the map is playable, yes..
Kagetsu - Today at 9:51 PM
i mean't evidence that the map is unplayable
lol
Monstrata - Today at 9:51 PM
so what evidence? lol
you're completely avoiding the question because you don't have an answer...
Kagetsu - Today at 9:52 PM
i don't have an answer because playability is subjective
your "evidence" proves nothing
Monstrata - Today at 9:52 PM
its a hell of a lot better than no evidence
Kagetsu - Today at 9:53 PM
i mean i can use the same arguments to back up my points
pointing the scoreboard
"i have watched a lot of players not being able to play this map"
Monstrata - Today at 9:54 PM
this map is not playable because the leaderboard is only filled with scores that are over 90% acc. the map is not playable because only one person was able to pass it with HR.
Kagetsu - Today at 9:54 PM
and it's the same thing at the end
Monstrata - Today at 9:54 PM
yea i can do the same for your arguments if i were to veto one of your maps xP
"the scoreboard is only filled with 99% accuracy scores" "only 15 people have fc'ed it on DT"
Kagetsu - Today at 9:54 PM
you're using arbitrary numbers too
see?
Monstrata - Today at 9:54 PM
as are you :stuck_out_tongue:
Kagetsu - Today at 9:54 PM
ya
that's why i say it's subjective
Monstrata - Today at 9:55 PM
im doing exactly what you're doing to demonstrate that they are not good reasons...
you're just hiding behind the "everything is subjective" thing again and avoiding trying to discuss it.
Kagetsu - Today at 9:55 PM
but there's nothing to discuss
you can't prove the map is playable
and i can't prove the map is unplayable
Monstrata - Today at 9:56 PM
you know this reasoning wont work lol
with that reasoning i can just pop any map and say
"but you cant prove the map is playable"
Kagetsu - Today at 9:57 PM
the difference is that most of the maps are already proven to be playable
unless you ask for something impossible
Monstrata - Today at 9:57 PM
how?
how did you prove the map was playable? if everythign is subjective?
Kagetsu - Today at 9:57 PM
because it's agreed upon
Monstrata - Today at 9:57 PM
does 100 people fc'ing it prove the map is playable? how about 99? all these numbers are arbitrary
agreed upon by who? 5 people, 50 people?
everything iss ubjective remember
Kagetsu - Today at 9:58 PM
by the majority
that's why i'm voting no
Monstrata - Today at 9:58 PM
the majority are you sure? did you actually ask every player in china? because the chinese players are the majority of osu players.
Kagetsu - Today at 9:58 PM
lmao
Monstrata - Today at 9:58 PM
how do you know its a majority? xD
Kagetsu - Today at 9:59 PM
if it wasn't like that, then people wouldn't even be playing the game lol
Monstrata - Today at 9:59 PM
no matter what you say, it can always be disproven by "its subjective" which si precisely why your veto'ing logic is flawed :stuck_out_tongue:
Kagetsu - Today at 9:59 PM
because the maps are unplayable
i mean, i wouldn't play something unplayable
Monstrata - Today at 9:59 PM
you played alien and said you could even fc it...
???
Kagetsu - Today at 10:00 PM
i didn't say i can fc it
no one can
Monstrata - Today at 10:00 PM
pass*
doesn't change the fact you played it lmao
Kagetsu - Today at 10:00 PM
ya, but playability involves more things
it's all about passing
it's about feeling the music
or something like that
Monstrata - Today at 10:00 PM
really? all about passing?
Kagetsu - Today at 10:01 PM
nononoon
my english is just bad lol
it isn't all about passing
please consider that this isn't even my native language ):
Monstrata - Today at 10:01 PM
feeling the music? how does that determine playability?
well, as a BN you are required to know english so
not really my problem :stuck_out_tongue:
Kagetsu - Today at 10:02 PM
ye, i'm just asking for consideration
and idk,i think i just expressed it wrong
i mean mashing the keyboard
and passing something
doesn't mean it's playable
it's like vaxei passing airman dt hr
he literally waits on the left side of the screen
so that he hits 1/1 instead of hitting the entire 1/2 patterns
Monstrata - Today at 10:03 PM
i've already considered your arguments thoroughly. you have no evidence that suggests the map is unplayable. i've demonstrated why your logic is faulty because it can be easily used on other maps, and i've given you counter arguments that support the map is playable through scores, as well as why the AR even though it could be slightly higher, is already very close to the ideal number
Kagetsu - Today at 10:04 PM
i don't think you've demonstrated my logic is faulty
Monstrata - Today at 10:05 PM
"i don't think this is playable so i'm veto'ing it" is faulty
1. no evidence from other people to support its "not playable"
2. can be applied to literally every map you think is "not playable"
3. no reasoning or discussion because if someone disagrees, they just have to disagree or absolutely convince you the map is playable.
Kagetsu - Today at 10:06 PM
you've been gotten through that already
and demonstrated nothing
the only thing we can come out from this discussion is that playability is subjective
and it's something agreen upon
so i voted no
just get people who vote yes
and that's it
agreed*
Monstrata - Today at 10:07 PM
no, the only thing we can come out from this discussion is that you don't have any evidence so you're just hiding behind the "playabilty is subjective" line
Kagetsu - Today at 10:07 PM
xD
but we already discussed that
Monstrata - Today at 10:08 PM
no, you tried multiple times to end the discussion on" playability is sibjective so we have to disagree"
if something is subjective, it means there are multiple ways to interpret something
you haven't given any evidence or interpretation on your end
which is why i say you are "hiding behind the line"
if you have any evidence then at least i can say "i disagree with Kagetsu's opinion on playability, but at least i know what his viewpoint looks like"
Kagetsu - Today at 10:10 PM
get kurai to rebubble it
or post the chat logs in the thread
if the qat decides that my veto is invalid
then i have nothing to say
Monstrata - Today at 10:11 PM
https://puu.sh/wPW3O.pngits not far off
Kagetsu - Today at 10:13 PM
is there a way to save the logs on discord
Monstrata - Today at 10:13 PM
i dont know but i'll gladly post them