00:44 CerealeKiller: hey
00:44 ExKyu: oh hey!
00:44 CerealeKiller: Wanna IRC mod ?
00:45 ExKyu: what's IRC?
00:45 CerealeKiller: Here
00:45 CerealeKiller: this chat is IRC haha
00:45 ExKyu: In Real Chat?
00:45 ExKyu: omg lol wild guess
00:45 ExKyu: hmm ok
00:45 CerealeKiller: Internet Relay Chat actually
00:45 CerealeKiller: Oh it's like
00:45 ExKyu: hold on wait
00:46 ExKyu: my osu! needs to be updated
00:46 ExKyu: brb
00:48 CerealeKiller: back
00:48 CerealeKiller: you can do a normal mod, with a post on the forum, but I propose you to make a mod here, I just tell you what I think and have your reaction in real time. It's up to you, if you don't have time I can do a normal mod
00:49 ExKyu: i have time
00:49 CerealeKiller: Okay so lets go ?
00:49 ExKyu: ok!
00:49 ExKyu: what diff should we start?
00:49 CerealeKiller: OK first thing, your SV on the easy is way to high
00:50 CerealeKiller: it's 1.8 while it's 1.2 on the normal
00:50 CerealeKiller: a begginer would be so lost if he started with your map
00:50 ExKyu: oooh that....
00:51 ExKyu: actually it was supposed to be 1.8....but PeterEU modded(or should i say fix) my map and probably changed it
00:51 CerealeKiller: you mean that the easy is supposed to be 1.8 ?
00:51 CerealeKiller: it is already 1.8, but it's too high for an easy
00:52 ExKyu: no no,the normal should be 1.8
00:52 CerealeKiller: AH
00:52 CerealeKiller: Well even
00:52 CerealeKiller: I guess the normal is fine
00:52 CerealeKiller: but an easy player can't handle that fast sliders
00:52 ExKyu: should i change the SV for easy?
00:53 CerealeKiller: yes, lower it to 1.0/1.1 I guess
00:53 CerealeKiller: you can even do lower
00:54 CerealeKiller: and you'll have to change the sliders lenght because of that, it might take time
00:55 ExKyu: oh and btw,should i increase the DS for easy?
00:56 CerealeKiller: No no, 1 is really fine for an easy
00:56 CerealeKiller: what you wanna do when you map an easy, is making the map the more consistent possible, constant DS/SV, all set at 1.0 preferentially, and really keep that DS, no jumps
00:58 ExKyu: ooh i see,alright,i'll try my best
00:59 CerealeKiller: OK so about everydiff, you know, the timing/rythm is good
00:59 CerealeKiller: what poses problem is the aesthetics, and quite often, a lack of flow
00:59 CerealeKiller: do you get the concept of flow ?
01:00 ExKyu: i get it
01:00 ExKyu: btw,are you gonna post this IRC on the forum?
01:01 CerealeKiller: Yep, i'll make a copy paste, so no dirt talking here, beware
01:01 CerealeKiller: yeah so often, you can really improve it, you have often just random transitions between circles/sliders
01:02 *CerealeKiller is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/973467 toby fox - Ghost Fight [Easy]]
01:03 CerealeKiller: like here, 00:05:975 (3,4,5) - , look you force the player to move the cursor upway, and then bam left and up again, it breaks the flow
01:03 CerealeKiller: and those exemple are numerous
01:04 CerealeKiller: of course it doesn't make the map unplayable, nor unrankable, but and accumulation of those makes the map unpleasant to play.
01:04 ExKyu:
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5567108 is this good?
01:05 CerealeKiller: It's a bit better, but don't hesitate to move other circles also so as to improve flow
01:07 CerealeKiller: here I would rather see something like this
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/556712201:07 CerealeKiller: see, keep that going up line of circles, and then smoothly you take that slider to go down
01:09 ExKyu: woah how do you do that?
01:10 CerealeKiller: Actually don't mind changing the easy too much maybe since you'll have to remap it a bit (since of the SV change)
01:10 CerealeKiller: Do what ?
01:10 CerealeKiller: A smooth curved slider ?
01:10 ExKyu: yes
01:10 ExKyu: i can't do that
01:10 CerealeKiller: it's super duper easy actually
01:10 CerealeKiller: when you know how
01:10 CerealeKiller: sometimes the slider maker is capricious
01:11 CerealeKiller: but you start the slider, click once (one gray square), click a third time, and end the slider
01:11 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pV85l.jpg01:12 CerealeKiller: Sometimes you just have to ctrl+z because it makes you a bad slider, and then you just come back to the one you want
01:14 CerealeKiller: Ok so now I'll just paste you where I personnaly would improve the flow, so you can think about it
01:14 CerealeKiller: 00:10:775 (4,5,6,1) -
01:14 ExKyu: is this good?
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/556715901:15 CerealeKiller: yeah taht's it, it's good yes !
01:15 CerealeKiller: 00:12:908 (1,2,3) - (here it overlaps with the slider so it's kinda ugly)
01:16 CerealeKiller: 00:19:842 (5,1,2) -
01:16 CerealeKiller: 00:28:908 (6,1,2) -
01:16 CerealeKiller: 00:40:642 (1,1) - here no flow problem but the long slider overlaps with the following one
01:17 CerealeKiller: 00:43:842 (1,1) - Same
01:17 CerealeKiller: overlaps well done can be fine, but like this its kinda ugly, you wanna avoid them if you don't master them
01:18 CerealeKiller: ok now normal (still pointing out flow issues)
01:18 *CerealeKiller is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/974562 toby fox - Ghost Fight [Normal]]
01:18 CerealeKiller: 00:07:042 (6,7) -
01:18 CerealeKiller: 00:17:175 (1,2,3) -
01:19 ExKyu: wait,is that all the mistakes i should fix on easy?
01:19 CerealeKiller: That's flow issues, you rather wanna fix them, but it's up to you how
01:19 CerealeKiller: I don't give you much time to do them now, just check them and you'll fix them later, fine for you ?
01:20 CerealeKiller: just ask me questions if you don't understand why
01:20 ExKyu: got it!
01:21 CerealeKiller: also, here, 00:17:175 (1,2) - There's a small gap between those but a 1/1 break between, it fools the player, make a bigger spacing so it fits better with the break
01:21 CerealeKiller: 00:20:642 (4,1) - flow
01:23 CerealeKiller: ok and now hard (should I do the GD aswell ? Will the mapper see it ?)
01:24 ExKyu: yes.the map needs heavily modded
01:24 CerealeKiller: okay, so you'll tell him to read the notes, the copy paste
01:24 CerealeKiller: but I'll do it at the end so he don't have to read everything
01:25 CerealeKiller: (if you have questions don't hesitate eh !)
01:25 CerealeKiller: ok so
01:25 *CerealeKiller is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1005418 toby fox - Ghost Fight [Hard]]
01:26 CerealeKiller: 00:00:642 (2,3,4) - flow, you go in a straight line and then bam the slider a lower
01:26 CerealeKiller: 00:01:842 (6,1) -
01:26 CerealeKiller: 00:02:775 (2,3,1) - Kinda of the same here, you go straight and then suddently back to make that really uncomfortable slider
01:27 CerealeKiller: 00:12:642 (7,1) - Same
01:27 ExKyu: pls forgive me but i still don't get how the flow works
01:27 CerealeKiller: Oh
01:27 CerealeKiller: sorry then maybe i'm bothering too much with it
01:28 CerealeKiller: It's a concept quite abstract to understand sure, I understand it
01:28 CerealeKiller: I'll just show you wait
01:28 ExKyu: no no,it's okay.plus,i'm still a noob at mapping so need to know more
01:28 CerealeKiller: yeah
01:30 CerealeKiller: look
01:31 CerealeKiller: in your map, you're having this pattern
01:31 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pV96Q.jpg01:31 CerealeKiller: your cursor is going with the slider
01:31 CerealeKiller: goes straight to the circle 2 and 3
01:31 CerealeKiller: the path is smooth
01:32 CerealeKiller: but then you suddenly have that go back, and take that slider
01:32 ExKyu: hmm i see
01:32 CerealeKiller: where I put the red arrow, it's where the flow breaks
01:32 ExKyu: but,if i put the slider on top of the circle,it won't let me because of the DS
01:33 CerealeKiller: Yeah I know !
01:33 CerealeKiller: taht's whu mapping is hard, you have a small area
01:33 ExKyu: should i lower the number 3 circle?
01:33 CerealeKiller: and you'll have to make curves, and twist the map around to get it good
01:34 CerealeKiller: yeah you could try this
01:35 CerealeKiller: for exemple I thought about something like this, that'es a possibility. It's not perfect yet, but I made the angle of rotation wider which makes the flow better
01:35 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pV9jg.jpg01:36 CerealeKiller: you get how you do it ?
01:36 ExKyu: yes
01:36 CerealeKiller: good good !
01:37 CerealeKiller: ok so I'll stop with flow now
01:38 CerealeKiller: I really recomand you this thread
01:38 CerealeKiller:
t/8632901:38 CerealeKiller: It explains very well the concept and give some good illustrations
01:38 CerealeKiller: maybe try to read it and then take another look at your map (especially what I pointed out)
01:40 CerealeKiller: Ok last thing that your map really lacks
01:40 CerealeKiller: is aesthetics, design
01:41 CerealeKiller: Some patterns are nice, perfectible but nice, but some seem so random
01:41 ExKyu: what difficulty,should be precise?
01:42 CerealeKiller: it concerns all of them, wait i'll explain
01:42 CerealeKiller: I can't really point out everything you can improve, because it's a general impression you want to get better, so it's all small things you should work out
01:42 CerealeKiller: so I'll give you some exemples of what you wanna improve in general
01:43 CerealeKiller: ok first of all, the sliders
01:43 CerealeKiller: making sliders is hard to master, but it really can be powerful
01:44 CerealeKiller: about curved sliders, generally you
01:45 CerealeKiller: for short curved slider, avoid to make them too curved, it doesn't look very well
01:46 CerealeKiller: because then the head and the tail of the slider touch, overlap, which makes it ugly
01:46 CerealeKiller: you will prefer sliders like the 6 than the 7
01:46 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pV9V4.jpg01:47 ExKyu: ahh i see
01:47 ExKyu: it will be more smooth then
01:47 CerealeKiller: yep !
01:47 ExKyu: rather that sharp sliders
01:47 CerealeKiller: Yeah
01:47 CerealeKiller: that also makes a part of the flow, it improves the map on both sides
01:48 CerealeKiller: I noticed you made a lot of really straight sliders (in hard for exemple)
01:48 CerealeKiller: straight sliders are nice, and can often be very pleasant to look
01:49 CerealeKiller: but in your hard, they are almost every one vertical or horizontal
01:49 CerealeKiller: which makes the map very, squary
01:49 CerealeKiller: BUT, if you rotate them a bit, just a little bit, like 5 degrees, it looks so different
01:52 CerealeKiller: like look here,
http://puu.sh/pVae0.jpg, I can't explain why, but I prefer the pattern on the left than on the right
01:52 CerealeKiller: even if it's almost the same
01:52 CerealeKiller: a small rotation made a big change
01:52 CerealeKiller: Just try not to make too much straight vertical and straight horizontal sliders
01:53 CerealeKiller: And finally, be careful with sharp sliders
01:53 CerealeKiller: I mean those with red squares in them
01:53 CerealeKiller: unless you make a small angle (I recommand 60 degrees or lower)
01:54 CerealeKiller: try to curve them
01:54 CerealeKiller: at least parially
01:54 CerealeKiller: partially
01:54 CerealeKiller: I'll show you
01:56 CerealeKiller: Look
01:56 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pVas0.jpg01:56 CerealeKiller: from left to right, I like slider 1, 2 ,3 ,4, but I don't like sliders 5 and 6
01:57 CerealeKiller: (I hope you're still following)
01:57 ExKyu: oh yes i am still following
01:57 CerealeKiller: Good good
01:58 CerealeKiller: About overlaps !
01:58 ExKyu: wait,which is the sliders 5 and 6 you mentioned?
01:58 CerealeKiller: the two on the right
01:58 CerealeKiller: the most on the right
01:58 ExKyu: oooh
01:58 CerealeKiller: see ?
01:59 CerealeKiller: It's not much to do, but imo the outcome is very different
01:59 ExKyu: hmm it is a bit unconfortable to me
01:59 CerealeKiller: what is ?
01:59 CerealeKiller: tell me
01:59 ExKyu: yeah,you're right
01:59 ExKyu: i meant the sliders you mentioned
01:59 CerealeKiller: you don't know how to do them ?
01:59 ExKyu: sliders that too sharp won't feel nice
02:00 CerealeKiller: AH, you mean it's uncompfortable to see, the sharp ones ?
02:00 ExKyu: yes
02:00 CerealeKiller: AH yeah, it is
02:01 CerealeKiller: Also if you want to improve your sliders, and have some ideas I recommand you to read that thread
t/3719402:01 CerealeKiller: but you don't always have to do fancy stuff, often simple shape work just fine
02:02 CerealeKiller: OK so I wanted to talk about overlaps
02:02 CerealeKiller: (you know what overlaps are right ?à
02:02 CerealeKiller: )
02:02 ExKyu: ehh....maybe?
02:02 CerealeKiller: Haha
02:02 CerealeKiller: I'll show you
02:04 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pVaQL.jpg and
http://puu.sh/pVaNU.jpg02:04 CerealeKiller: see the circles are just a bit touching eachother
02:04 CerealeKiller: well in most cases you wanna avoid that, just because it's not super beautiful
02:05 CerealeKiller: AND, I know it's what the DS told you, to put the circles just at that precise distance, but here you can just move them just a bit, so the circles don't touch anymore
02:05 CerealeKiller: it won't change the gameplay at all, but i'll look nicer
02:06 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pVaZ3.jpg02:08 ExKyu: in what specific time the previous picture you showed me? because i can't see them
02:08 CerealeKiller: 00:03:308 (1,2) - and
02:09 CerealeKiller: 00:07:575 (5,6) -
02:09 CerealeKiller: there are others but I didn't pin every one
02:10 CerealeKiller: ok last thing
02:10 CerealeKiller: is about elements interacting with others
02:11 CerealeKiller: there are two things you can remember, which will look nice, and which aren't too hard to do
02:12 CerealeKiller: the first are blakets
02:13 CerealeKiller: For exemple here (it's the GD but it's a good exemple) 00:32:108 (2,3) -
02:13 CerealeKiller: Is a place where you could do a blanket
02:13 CerealeKiller: a blanket is when the slider embraces the circle
02:15 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pVbsi.jpg02:15 ExKyu: i don't get it
02:15 CerealeKiller: Look on the bottom is what your friend did, and up is what I did
02:16 CerealeKiller: it's not much different, but in what I did, the slider goes smoothly around the circle
02:17 ExKyu: ooh,it makes them look more flaws right?
02:17 CerealeKiller: you can do it with two sliders also
02:17 CerealeKiller: it can improve the flow
02:17 CerealeKiller: but it mostly just make it nicer to look
02:18 CerealeKiller: but yeah, you can do nice things like this
http://puu.sh/pVbCi.jpg02:19 ExKyu: ahh now i get it
02:19 CerealeKiller: yeah see
02:19 CerealeKiller: a last thing you want to do
02:19 CerealeKiller: is when you have straight sliders
02:19 CerealeKiller: make them parallel
02:19 ExKyu: parallel?
02:19 CerealeKiller: you pretty much did it
02:23 ExKyu: btw,how do you copy this IRC? i want to copy it too on my notepad
02:23 CerealeKiller:
http://puu.sh/pVbU9.jpg02:23 CerealeKiller: */savelog
02:23 CerealeKiller: Look, here
02:23 CerealeKiller: you have 3 pairs of sliders
02:23 CerealeKiller: imo
02:23 CerealeKiller: 1 and 2 look good, smooth
02:23 CerealeKiller: but 3 is meh
02:24 ExKyu: what time?
02:24 CerealeKiller: No time
02:24 CerealeKiller: I build that up
02:24 CerealeKiller: I believe you didn't do anything meh
02:24 CerealeKiller: but i'm just giving the advice
02:24 ExKyu: oh sorry lol
02:24 CerealeKiller: Haha it's fine
02:24 ExKyu: i see
02:25 CerealeKiller: that's what I meant by parallel
02:25 CerealeKiller: And that's it, i said everything I thought
02:25 ExKyu: */savelog
02:25 CerealeKiller: You can't solve your map just as easy
02:25 CerealeKiller: without the star haha
02:25 ExKyu: oh sorry