Leader wrote:

I'm seriously concerned about future ranked maps if stuff like this gets the approval of beatmap nominators. Let me say something: Let me start you off by saying that, for future references, starting a mod like this will not help you get your point across and will more than likely insult or offend mappers thus making your mod virtually irrelevant to them as no one wants help from a "douche". Lucky for you I'm not that kinda person ;^)

[Yumps]

1. 00:12:117 (3,4) - / 00:17:511 (4,5) - / etc. - Seriously? First of all, I can't hear barely anything on (3), which might be just me being deaf at only 19. But what triggers me the most is the sound on the blue tick being completely ignored, even if you mapped stuff on it in other similar points throughout the map. It is completely wrong to ignore a significant sound such as the ones I pointed out and "for variety's sake" is not a proper excuse here. I'm good friends with a 16 year old that's going deaf in one ear (and there's also pereira) so that's a possibility. Jokes aside, no this is not random and follows a very clear instrument. The reason I started mapping at 00:11:106 - and not at 00:01:503 - is because unlike all those first 10 seconds, here is where you are first introduced to another instrument, that wind/whistling which you can (I hope) clearly hear playing throughout 00:11:106 (1,2,3,4) - Of course the whistling holds at 00:12:286 - so it'd be more obvious what I was mapping to then. Instead I decided to switch focus to the technically stronger rhythm at that moment which is that electronic piano or whatever you wanna call that at 00:12:454 - until 00:16:499 (1,2,3,4,5) - again for the same reason that I wanna emphasize this now stronger instrument because, as opposed to the repetitive piano, this only happens a few times in the music yet is very strong and I simply can't ignore it for the same of following the repetitive piano rhythm. This is pretty common in many maps, switching focus from one instrument to another when it makes sense and personally I feel it absolutely makes sense.
2. 00:15:657 (3,5) - / 00:18:353 (2) - / 00:23:747 (3,5) - / etc. Again, I can't hear anything that should be relevant to map. The only thing that could stand on these ticks is a slider's end. Now I can kind of give you this one because technically you're right. There is no CLEAR doubles rhythm here. It's there, but very hard to hear because of how quiet this section is. The reason I'm still mapping them is to introduce the doubles rhythm as a way to prepare players for the clearer doubles that will happen later in the map. This also is not uncommon in many maps even as far back as 2010 (wouldn't be surprised if there were some before that). 3/4 rhythm isn't very intuitive so many mappers started throwing in doubles which are more intuitive both visually and rhythmically. You don't necessarily have to hear the instruments playing a doubles rhythm to know how to play it because it's a very natural rhythm.
   
   Now before you tell me I shouldn't do this, I say that I really should. The reason is because as you can probably tell and kind of touched on, this entire section from 00:11:106 - 00:21:893 - the music is getting progressively louder and the instruments become progressively clearer (might be why you couldn't quite hear the whistle sound) and if you listen closely, 00:18:353 (2,3) - 00:21:050 (2,3) - you CAN hear the doubles rhythm here. You can even hear it in some sections I didn't map such as 00:20:291 - 00:20:376 - and 00:17:595 - 00:17:679 - because I was mapping the whistling tune btw.
   
   Anyway the point is I needed to map 00:15:657 (3,4,5,6) - these as doubles because it's the introduction to the rhythm, and as hard as it is to hear, they are most definitely there or at worst they are implied. Skystar's dreamless wanderer is a great example. 00:35:708 (1,2,3,4) - Used to be mapped like 00:38:121 (1,2,1,2,3) - but he changed it (you have no idea how much this triggered me back then and I wasn't even a mapper at the time) because a player is not stupid they can hear the rhythm that's supposed to play and while it's not so clear in the music, it just feels weird not mapping it. That's why I'm glad Charles got more involved with SW's version because he basically told him NOT to do what Skystar did there (check the thread and I told him too xd)
   
   Going back to the original point, I don't mind changing this if I truly have to but it will leave me with a sour taste in my mouth for the same reason Skystar's pattern change above did.
3. 00:21:893 (1) - Okay, this might be mapped correctly (even if it is not, as I stated above), but ignoring these really loud claps left me quite upset. I don't think it's the biggest issue on this map, but that's really awkward to hear and play. Yeah I know what you mean. Kind of a trade off tbh but due to how this section plays with the stacks and pauses I'm okay with it.
4. 00:54:252 (1) - / 00:55:601 (1) - / 01:02:342 (1) - / 01:05:039 (1) - / 01:07:735 (1) - / and so on - I can't believe sliders like these can be rated positively by people who have a little experience on mapping. They are messy, placed randomly and shaped like this just because "weird" sliders are trending nowadays. Honestly, it looks like there's little work on the design of the whole map, which might not be the most important part, but that should be at least considered and fixed if this is ever going to be ranked. Yeah I admit it's a pretty meme-y trend so many ppl are guilty of this xd. Still I at least tried to give them some meaning. The shapes have some sort of back and forth movement as a lame way of trying to emphasize the wub pitch fluctuating or whatever that word is. Maybe the "weird" shape is unnecessary but pay close attention to the wub sound at 00:55:601 (1) - which is a different sound. Here the sliders are "weirder" than the others (imo) and should be consistent with the rest of the song when applicable (some aren't cuz I had to use 1/2 for example) but anyway uh....Shapes yeah...I can't really do anything about that. I mean I guess I could make them "normal" sliders to appease you and maybe a few other ppl in all of osu but then you get ppl complaining for the opposite reason saying the sliders are lifeless and unoriginal so y'know, where do you draw the line? Can't please everyone unfortunately :/
5. 01:58:297 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - I don't really understand why people emphasize streams like this even when there's no significant changes in the song, you seem to do it quite often, is it just for making the diff more challenging? I'm actually surprised you couldn't catch this. Starting 01:57:623 - Not only does the pitch rise, but the volume also rises and whats more the drums kick in at 01:58:466 - giving it even more emphasis right at the climax of the map. And I do also do this in the other streams before this because of that same reason. Most people just don't like playing spaced streams I guess since they usually break combo or die (I'm looking at your sakura mirage >:V jokes aside I love that map!)
   
   I didn't get down to details (just gave a quick look), but it seems like the whole map has little structure, kiai is not really following the real patterns of the song, rhythm is often weird or simplified (which lead to the issue I stated before), sliders' shapes are often random and rarely neat, as if an unexperienced player has just discovered mapping. I think osu! has much higher standard than what we are seeing qualified nowadays (your map is not the only one, unfortunately), and I just wish we could solve this instead of ranking basically everything that BNs rate as "okay-ish". Now while it seems a lot of the suggestions are more fueled by your personal ideals of how mapping should be, I do respect your points and I hope you don't think badly of me as a mapper. Now, from your opening sentence and last paragraph I can't help but feel a bit insulted that you want to group this map with all the "generic" maps of 2016. At the same time, however, I do agree with you. This map isn't actually how I'd normally map a song to be completely honest. It's more of an experiment like a lot of my graveyard maps that people seemed to like and then I got offered some GDs and went off from there so really I'm doing this more from them than I am for Yumps (I also really love how I mapped my hard!!!!!!)
   
   While this isn't the place to discuss mapping ideals and whether or not "maps like this" should be the meta and what gets ranked nowadays, I did want to share a point with you which is that as far as I've seen, the closest people like us get to complaining about this, is in other people's qualified threads. Maybe someone in reddit from time to time and it gains little to no traction there for obvious reasons. Trust me when I say I'm with you and I don't like the way most maps nowadays are being made in a "cookie-cutter" flowchart style where it's just a mix of RLC and Skystar patterns with no purpose "but they look pretty so its k!" kind of deal but that's NOT the problem imo.
   
   The problem is a mix of most players really liking playing "these" types of maps because they're straight forward to play and usually very rewarding, and also the fact that mappers are realizing this and are catering to them by giving them exactly what they want: Easy but very rewarding maps.
   
   There will come a time when players will get bored of the same maps to a different song and that's more than likely when the meta will change and more people will see the beauty in maps like gowww's avalon or the genius in pomuta's and the gd's in lindwurm. Maybe not but I really hope so because those are the maps that I feel have a meaning and a very clear design. Unfortunately that won't be anytime soon but I sure hope it happens!
   
   I could go on to other points but, again this isn't the place for this kind of discussion. I'd very much like to talk to you on this topic via PM however (if you don't mind)

Sorry if I may appear rude, I tried to be polite. Not at all (minus the first sentence). Thanks for your input I really appreciate it!

OnosakiHito wrote:

Disqualifying this set as there is clearly the need of discussing certain things for the modes osu! and osu!mania, despite mania having already discussions before. As always, please keep it civil and try to understand eachother. If possible, try to find middleways. Good luck everyone!

(damn you, nice taikos got disqualified, it is all a plot from the other modes)9/13 was an inside job 11!#!!!uno!!

Okorin wrote:

OnosakiHito wrote:

(damn you, nice taikos got disqualified, it is all a plot from the other modes)

(yea sure of course we're totally plotting to take down taiko) hai desu desu
along with banning anime ok

in this section on yumps 01:05:039 - to 01:14:477 - :
i feel like 01:05:544 - these sounds should have passive objects representing them as the main thing you map to starts on the next white (or at least clearly different spacing) I actually misread this altogether and somehow thought you wanted me to make 01:05:039 (1) - these into 3/4 sliders with an active object at 01:05:544 - LOL (don't ask me how) but after agreeing with your not-suggestion I actually like that change LOL. Also as we briefly discussed via PM I tried the 3/4 into 1/2 slider approach but ehhhhhhhhh it looked so forced it didn't feel right tbh so I'm gonna end up having three more active objects instead xd (though if you don't like this I saved a backup and I can just change it back to how it was both are fine to me tbh)

01:07:061 (5) - on the other hand these sounds would be better to justify as circles? On the contrary the wub sound (which is also emphasized by the custom whistle) is 1/1 so having two 1/2 sliders adds a small click pause to simulate the wub gap so the sliders make more sense when you consider that.

01:13:803 (4,5,1) - that these are stacked does the sounds no justice imo it's so very intense what's happening and your map is basically chilling lol
01:54:926 (1) - not sure what exactly to or why exactly this thing in particular is extended, the sound on 1/2 is dominant enough? Yes. The ideal pattern ( and the pattern I used to have) was a clickable note at 01:55:516 - and 01:55:263 (2) - as a 1/2 slider but as it turned out, that made that rhythm awkward to play. I am aware there are alternatives such as making 01:55:516 - this the slider head and the slider ending at 01:55:769 - with a clickable object at 01:55:937 - for example. Maybe it's just me but I can't seem to make a pattern that looks nice with this rhythm without remapping a lot of parts after and I like how those look ;-;

Note I am open to suggestions for this one if you have a few ideas in mind :v

Akali wrote:

Agreed with everything Leader wrote. I'm Leader irl tbh

00:54:252 (1,1,1,1) - etc - 1/1 on extra map's drumstep drop is really underwhelming, at least some 3/4s? applies to almost whole diff tbh Now I'm glad you mentioned this because I somehow managed to confuse what oko said with this exact suggestion LOL. The thing is I didn't do it here I did it at the second kiai. Seemed more fitting there with the introduction of the woob sound imo.

01:02:342 (1,2,3,4,5) - you do 3/4 here but when bass goes up in pitch and it's finale of the section there are 1/2 stacks not that far from each other compared to big jumps before (makes sense on some level but eh) Yeah the stacks are based on the pitch where 01:02:679 (2,3) - is higher and the same pitch so stack and 01:03:016 (4,5) - is lower but the same pitch so also stacked. Like I could make this all jumps but I don't like that idea at least not here.

01:13:128 (1,2,3,4,5) - ^

01:20:881 (1,2,1) - this doesn't make any sense, ignoring 1/8 or whatever is fine, but compensating it with random 1/4 jump? doesn't feel right for interpreting drums alone this way, no synth or anything else here Ah yes the dreaded ignored 1/8 thing!!! I'm not disagreeing with you I do like the idea of a 1/8 kick slider into 01:21:218 (1) - but for one it doesn't fit the theme of the map (which is jumps) and it just doesn't look so nice. Trust me you're like the...fifth or something person that's suggested something else here but every "example" screenshot just doesn't look nice. As to be expected most ppl don't really take the time to make it look super awesome because 9 times out of 10 the mapper will say nah my pattern's better (and in some cases its true) maybe not in this one but as I said I've tried many times and if I truly wanted to do this I'd have to remap this entire stanza and I'm not about to do that tbh.

01:25:263 (1) - use more sliders like before, super long repeats are anticlimactic on extras especially when it has more clickable objects before The biggest difference between 01:25:263 (1) - vs literally every other transition with three sliders is that there's a kick sound that plays each 1/1 or whatever the snap is. Here in the music it's just the 3/2 synth sound and every other sample in the music is pretty quiet hence this slider and repeat. It used to be a slider and instead of a repeat I had a note that made a triangle with 01:25:179 (4,1) - or something like that but meh it's basically the same thing might as well do the repeat xd

01:28:803 (4) - no reason to start on red tick and leave clap not clickable, synth focus can go either way so 2 circles or start slider on white tick Actually the reason is that 01:28:803 (4) - starts with the synthy sound like 01:26:612 (1) - and 01:27:117 (3) - 01:27:960 (1) - etc. Now before you mention 01:34:196 (4,5) - and emg konziztenxhy I didn't consider that when making this second pattern. Does that make those two inconsistent? technically yes. Am I gonna justify a remap with that? no because the first makes sense in that context but the second still makes sense even if it doesn't do exactly what the first did. Frankly I really dislike mods that say "omg this part is not exactly consistent with THIS part even though its the same in the music" like who cares? Strategas did that to ripples and oh man I would have had to remap so much if I didn't rip my hair out trying to explain each and every pattern's logic which tbh is not what any map should be about to begin with. It's a map to represent the song not its own musical composition. Maps would get stale repeating patterns because it's the same segment in the music and I'm sure many players will tell you that (can't think of an example right off the top of my head)

01:52:988 (5) - like in intro, 99% sure this is overmapped for no reason, when left clear triple here 01:54:589 (4,5) - 01:49:196 (4,5) - too I gave a pretty lengthy explanation in Leader's reply although you DID point something else out which WAS changing 01:49:196 (4) - to a 1/4 slider to get that triple sound. I did that there and 01:54:589 (4) - here

01:55:769 (3) - move this slider to previous white tick and map clap with a circle As I kind of explained in oko's mod I don't mind doing that if you can give me a good suggestion that doesn't require changing every pattern right after this ;(

tuck faiko YOU STOLE MY KDS FOR MY KERFAWY TACO MOD >:V