Hi folks,

so I watched this for a long time now and it is making me mad and sad at the same time.
I wonder why no one mentioned this until now. I don't know if this is the right forums for this, but there is no suggestions forums available. And because it has do to with beatmaps I created this topic here.
Yeah, it may be a flame thread, but I am just showing what's going wrong here!

1.) I don't really know how many BATs we have here, but the active ones are shown here: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/modranking
So as of today the 8th of January 2011, the only BATs that really do their job properly are osuplayer111 and Alace - much appreciated.
ALL the rest is like not or almost not doing anything (excluding the new BATs, they have to get into their new position first).
I do know osu is totally free and community managed. But Osu!'s heart are the beatmaps. So in MY opinion, the BATs should care for this!

2.) Writing a BAT a pm if you are not close to them (mostly when you are a new mapper and want to ask something etc.) you WILL NOT get an answer at all! IF and only IF you get an answer it is something like this: "Sry, 've been busy for a while. Can't help you".
Ok, let's see how busy you are: 0 posts in the forums within the last 7 days, 0 ranked/approved maps within the last 7 days, 24/7 active in IRC.
That's busy?! Gotta be a joke right?

3.) Sometimes, with a chance of 1/10000000000000000000 a map gets ranked if you are a new mapper.
75% of those maps are NEW songs.
100% meet the official ranking criteria.

All the time, with a chance of 10000000000000000000/1 a map gets ranked if you are a known mapper.
90% of those maps are OLD songs which are available 10+ times.
50% meet the official ranking criteria (since when maps with 3 diffs can get ranked if its Hard (4 stars), Insane (4.5 stars), Insane (4.5)?).

Official Ranking Criteria

4.) Be known and get you map ranked within 24 hours and less than 10 stars.
Be not known and not get your map ranked within 1 year with more than 40, 50, 60 or even 250 stars.
WTF?!

5.) If you are bingo with the chance of 1/10000000000000000000 a BAT will post something like "Change these two things and contact me. I'll bubble your map then".
But thats it. Change these two things, write the BAT a pm and never hear anything of him again.

6.) Just with a few clicks and found those poor beatmaps which are also just ignored by BATs. Just one view, some "do this and that" and that's it. The maps are just getting more and more dusty.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22399&start=75
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31962&start=45
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27376&start=75
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31642&start=30
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26201&start=30
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26205&start=30
(I think thats enough for the beginning...)


I am counting me with the poor guys that are just ignored. Why? Because I am almost wating a year to get 1 map ranked!
I wrote BATs pms - no response.
I've sent deepsea a pm, got a response after 3 months - much appreciated darlin' ! At least you helped me a bit with my map!
I've sent osuplayer a pm, no response.
I've sent Ephemeral a pm, no response.
I've sent Larto a pm, no response.
I've sent Gens a pm, got a response after a while saying he only mods bubbled maps. Well, interesting I found him modding more than enough maps not bubbled or stared at all.

The way it goes now, 2011 or at its best 2012 will be the end of Osu!, if the BATs are not going to change and do what they are here for!
I bet, in the end of 2011, we'll have 80% of the same beatmaps. Mostly Touhou: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist?l=1&r=0 ... o=1&page=1

We have to change somethin'!

Yes we can ö.ö !

>Sek

//now you can start flamin' me. I don't care. Someone had to say what's going (wr)on(g) here!

I'll try to answer this in a reasonable manner.

1 and 2) The truth is sadly that BATs are indeed real ppl with real lives, so they are busy. The reason that a lot of us are on irc is because we can chat on irc while doing other things such as our actual job, homework, etc. Unless a person is socially secluded, it is hard to imagine that person not trying to interact with the outside world while doing something far more boring. Just look at the amount of people who use Facebook.

3) As much as you want this statistic to be true, it is not. My name is known enough to get a map ranked rather quickly... (I think it is anyway), but a map 3rd to latest map I got ranked took me 9 months to get ranked (Look at this map: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/8518 if you don't believe me). Regarding new mappers, I admit that it is a very hard process for a new mapper to get his/her map ranked. The usual problem is that not only does a map have to fit technical specifications, but also be fun and aesthetically pleasing, a challenge for most mappers. I would be hesitant to bubble a map that does not fit those criteria

4) Just going to say that stars do not equal quality, and it has generally known that the star priority system is quite broken and needs fixing. Feature request should have a thread on it floating around.

5) I am really wondering, how did you contact the BAT again? Most BATs don't even look at their forum pms because they are usually spammed through them. The best thing to do is probably not ask them or if you really need to, ask them in game when they are active. Also, in these days, you should probably contact active MATs to get your map bubbled. Note: School is hitting a lot of the BAT/GMT/MAT crew. Most of them don't have time to do things either.

6) As I stated earlier, don't bother contacting BATs through forum pm. I will not bother explaining why each BAT did not respond, since I am not the BAT you contacted. I will not comment on the maps you linked because I am not sure of the scenario behind each of those (even though I can guess how the scenario went). You should probably contact a MAT to bubble your map there are usually a lot more active MATs than BATs. Also, in this fashion, BATs can easily see what maps are bubbled and fit for ranking.

About your last comment, I advise you discriminate against any map. I could just say that your map is just another anime map and yet another unoriginal song. Every song/remix is unique in some way.

I hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction, but I might have left a few things out. Feel free to ask more questions or voice more complaints and I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities.

Ok first of all this thread will probably get locked sooner or later, just letting you know
I know Bliss has answered alot of points but will throw it my opinion too~

To begin with I partly sympathize with you, I admit as a new mapper it can be incredibly hard to get some attention for your map without PMing people 100 times but your argument has some flaws in it..

Sekuyi wrote:

So as of today the 8th of January 2011, the only BATs that really do their job properly are osuplayer111 and Alace - much appreciated.

Not fair to say. A BATs sole purpose is not to rank maps every second they can. As a modder I get several PMs in game a day asking for general advise and I am sure BATs get just as much if not more. Just because you can't directly see the results doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. Also what about the BATs that try to work hard to keep chat in order and the ones that work behind the scenes in forums to try and keep osu! running. I will not say every BAT is active and is doing their job correctly but give them more credit than that.

Sekuyi wrote:

Hi folks,
Ok, let's see how busy you are: 0 posts in the forums within the last 7 days, 0 ranked/approved maps within the last 7 days, 24/7 active in IRC.
That's busy?! Gotta be a joke right?

I first say go back to my previous point for some of that. Additionally Christmas has just ended and several of the BATs have began to attend college, events in real life will always have more priority over osu! and you can't expect them to work hard every week 24/7 on this. (Again I am not excusing all BATs)

Sekuyi wrote:

6.) Just with a few clicks and found those poor beatmaps which are also just ignored by BATs. Just one view, some "do this and that" and

It is very hard to keep track of all of the different requests people give everyday (which is why I have that message in my sig.) As well as trying to keep the bubble limit at a reasonable size.

Yes the sad truth is that if you are a well known mapper your maps will almost always be ranked faster than new mappers. That is due to a few things; first these maps generally have less errors in them as they have done it several times before so they can be ranked in a more efficient time period. People also look out for new maps from well known mappers, it is hard to keep track of all the new mappers creations.

It might not be fair but that will never change much, someone with 100 ranked maps will get more attention than a person with 0 ranked maps (I do not agree with it but that's the way it will be)

Sekuyi wrote:

Hi folks,
The way it goes now, 2011 or at its best 2012 will be the end of Osu!, if the BATs are not going to change and do what they are here for!
I bet, in the end of 2011, we'll have 80% of the same beatmaps.
We have to change somethin'!
Yes we can ö.ö !
>Sek

I have the most trouble with this argument. osu! is more active in both players and maps than it has ever been. osu! will never end because of lack of ranked maps and different style maps are coming out everyday. MATs have just got new jobs in the community and new BATs have just been chosen. Just because a few BATs aren't doing their jobs doesn't mean everything will stop working.

Remember that there are thousands of mappers PMing BATs all the time and very few BATs to keep up with the huge work load. I wouldn't expect a PM to a BAT to get a quick response (especially when they tell you not to)

I am not flaming your post in any way and I agree with several of your points, just throwing in my two cents

/me support this flame thread
1.) BATs have $25 for a year, so BATs should do something, right?
2.) If they accept any mod request...What can they do in osu! except modding?
3.) http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23058 High five!!!.. what??
4.) WTF? You know they are friends..."I Can Be Your Friend" isn't always true...
5.) you'd better PM in-game, and watch their status, lol.
6.) Basara finally got ranked...This satisfied me enough...

I am counting me with the poor guys that are just ignored. Why? Because I am almost wating a year to get 1 map ranked!

Some BATs don't accept fourm PM...Read their signature..

btw, is this topic should be in General Disscussion?

BATs are not slaves. Don't treat them as such. BATs are people just like you and me who have been given the authority to approve maps. They have lives, and a family. Many of them are in college or in a late stage of high school.

Newer mappers have trouble finding BATs because they don't know who to ask and how to ask. Don't assume that they favor well known mappers.

I'm going to jump around here, just skimming though this.

Looking at this.

I am counting me with the poor guys that are just ignored. Why? Because I am almost wating a year to get 1 map ranked!
I wrote BATs pms - no response.
I've sent deepsea a pm, got a response after 3 months - much appreciated darlin' ! At least you helped me a bit with my map! Cool. If you're a new mapper, deepsea is helpful~.
I've sent osuplayer a pm, no response. osuplayer doesn't take mod requests, according to his signature.
I've sent Ephemeral a pm, no response. Eph is not much of a modder. He's part of the GMT, so don't expect him to mod crap. That's not his job.
I've sent Larto a pm, no response. How and when did you send it to him (For instance, forum PM or in-game PM? How did you ask him?
I've sent Gens a pm, got a response after a while saying he only mods bubbled maps. Well, interesting I found him modding more than enough maps not bubbled or stared at all. Gens graphics card has been broken for a while. He hasn't modded crap for a long time.

I'm pretty sure that most things I want to say have been said, but I'll just state one last thing. Being a known mapper doesn't mean that your maps get speedranked. I'm a well known mapper, and I asked EVERYBODY on the BAT team to mod my map (except for those who didn't mod the type of map I had). The thing that got me though it was the fact that I kept being respectful, and I didn't hate on the BAT real, saying "omg u gaiz r so leozy." I just kept strong, and eventually, I got a BAT to mod my map. Before I know it, it got approved. If you're having trouble getting your map ranked, ask the MAT to help you with your map, and stay strong and persevere until you can get a BAT to look at it, once it gets to the best quality you can have it~.

Finally, have some respect. Look at your sig. "My Pending
miwa - chAngE (TV Size) ★51 (waiting till BATs do what they should but don't do)
"
That's just rude, and BATs don't want ot mod maps from rude people. As I said earlier, BATs are not your slave. They have the right to go "This guy isn't nice to me! Well, I don't have to be nice to him! >:3~"

CDFA wrote:

BATs are not slaves. Don't treat them as such.

I don't. I just want them to do their "job" here properly.

BATs are people just like you and me who have been given the authority to approve maps. They have lives, and a family. Many of them are in college or in a late stage of high school.

I know that. I am workin' from 6 am to 6 pm as a programmer and as a 3rd level support. When I am back home I am a moderator on an mmorpg forums. and I still have enough time to meet my friends, watch movies in cinema, go on parties, play games etc.
Just want to say there's plenty of time for all of us^^

Newer mappers have trouble finding BATs because they don't know who to ask and how to ask.

That's true. I really wished there'd be some topic about this! Really!

Don't assume that they favor well known mappers.

That's not an assumption, that's almost a fact. You can check by yourself. Just view some beatmap threads from for example Djpop, SiRiRu, osuplayer, Larto, Shinxyn [...]

As for the PMs they were sent >5 months ago.

The thing that got me though it was the fact that I kept being respectful, and I didn't hate on the BAT real, saying "omg u gaiz r so leozy." I just kept strong, and eventually, I got a BAT to mod my map. Before I know it, it got approved.

The whole thing hit the cap after one specific MAT popped my bubble because of a 10ms offset change (was ok though), and until know (for 3 months now) left it this way to get buried in the forums.

Finally, have some respect. Look at your sig. "My Pending
miwa - chAngE (TV Size) ★51 (waiting till BATs do what they should but don't do)
"
That's just rude, and BATs don't want ot mod maps from rude people. As I said earlier, BATs are not your slave. They have the right to go "This guy isn't nice to me! Well, I don't have to be nice to him! >:3~"

Yes, they do have the right to do that. But it's the same with me. "Treat someone like you want to be treated."
I tried the nice way until they gave me the cold shoulder...

I haven't read these replies word-for-word so I apologize if I miss something.

Sekuyi wrote:

CDFA wrote:

BATs are not slaves. Don't treat them as such.

I don't. I just want them to do their "job" here properly.

You have to realize that having the ability to rank maps is not a "job", but a level of responsibility. They are volunteer/trusted modders who take time out of their lives to approve beatmaps for a community that really doesn't appreciate what they do.

Sekuyi wrote:

Newer mappers have trouble finding BATs because they don't know who to ask and how to ask.

That's true. I really wished there'd be some topic about this! Really!

The same thread is created every few months arguing that BATs aren't doing their "job" and that they're evil, inconsiderate people. When you want to send a BAT a mod request, think about it for a second. BATs are getting dozens of requests from many different mappers. Now that MATs can bubble, it's much easier for many BATs to just look at bubbles since they're the only ones that can rank them. Try going about asking more MATs to check your map rather than BATs (although if your map is going for approval, then that's a different story since MATs can't bubble those).

Sekuyi wrote:

The thing that got me though it was the fact that I kept being respectful, and I didn't hate on the BAT real, saying "omg u gaiz r so leozy." I just kept strong, and eventually, I got a BAT to mod my map. Before I know it, it got approved.

The whole thing hit the cap after one specific MAT popped my bubble because of a 10ms offset change (was ok though), and until know (for 3 months now) left it this way to get buried in the forums.

That's a bit unacceptable for no one to rebubble your map after such a long period of time, and so I apologize that this happened to you. Did you try asking that same MAT (or a different one) to rebubble it for you, though?

Sekuyi wrote:

Finally, have some respect. Look at your sig. "My Pending
miwa - chAngE (TV Size) ★51 (waiting till BATs do what they should but don't do)
"
That's just rude, and BATs don't want ot mod maps from rude people. As I said earlier, BATs are not your slave. They have the right to go "This guy isn't nice to me! Well, I don't have to be nice to him! >:3~"

Yes, they do have the right to do that. But it's the same with me. "Treat someone like you want to be treated."
I tried the nice way until they gave me the cold shoulder...

Just because you're being nice to BATs won't mean that they will mod your maps. Like I've said, BATs are stressed out enough with so many requests (and that's not including chat moderation, behind-the-scenes work, etc.) that they really can't focus on just fulfilling the mass of infinite requests.

I'd like to tell my point of view since this is something i've been worried about for years, before recently becoming a BAT.

Let's start by answering point by point first:
1.)
So, by showing the BAT ranking you almost make a good point, but that's still not enough. It's like opening the Player ranking and saying "so the only good player is Doomsday, the others are not good" when a lot of people know about Cookiezi the monster. I still understand your point, though: some BATs are always active while some other are not at all. Well this is something you can tell after a LONG period (you don't know if someone has a reasonable reason for leaving for some time) and i think it happens pretty much everywhere (i still don't like that myself, fyi). I don't know about how much you mod beatmaps, but checking everything in a beatmap can take from 15 minutes to 2 hours. and that's not shown in the BAT ranking (same for what was told above, irc assistance is not shown there).
About me, i think you'll never see me with more than 15 "mods for the last 7 days" in the ranking but from what i'm told it seems that people still appreciate my efforts to help them. There are BATs and MATs who care about the maps, and i try my best to be one of them. Maybe not all of them love beatmaps in the same way, but you can make your opinion by asking other people/reading their posts/chatting with them.

2.)
I had this happening to me too. I was a known user/mapper/modder (I'm here from 2007 :U ), but it happened that i was ignored sometimes. Now that I'm a BAT, I can think of some reasons: -A lot of chats (and sometimes it happens not to notice that a new one opened or that the person answered to what you wrote. This happened to me sometimes); -A lot of requests (there was a time that i got 6 requests in 15 minutes. I was getting frustrated because it never happened before. At that point not every person has the will to answer to every single of them and just goes "god leave me alone" and ignores. I try not to do that, but it's really hard, trust me).
Then yeah, real life issue as being told, but again i still kinda agree that in a week you can always find some time to mod at least 1-2 maps (unless there's a leave of absence ongoing)

3.)
Well, i know what you mean, but you shouldn't be SO pessimistic. The other two %s are just there because of your frustration and they have no reliable source. Personally, i like to see first maps and i usually give them a higher priority. This because I'm curious about new potentially good mappers. That said, there are also people who don't like modding first maps because it's a huge work sometimes and you can't really blame them since they give their free time to help. The problem with this is that most new mappers do not read FAQs or ask other people before mapping and sometimes it's hard to find first maps that are really worth the effort of a full modding. Too many first maps and not so many modders, that's a problem we can't really solve, sadly.

3.5?)
Again %s. As people before me said, well known mappers are known from more people, so they will get more priority. They will get modded and since experienced mappers make less mistakes, they will get bubbled in a shorter amount of time. Now, i know your point: it's ridicolous to have maps ranked in 2/3 days and maps ranked in 8/9 months. Even if looking at how much active the mapper was on the game, usually this is not excusable (and i complained LOTS LOTS LOTS LOTS of times about this, expecially about the "less than a week" ranked maps). I still think that the time range for ranking a beatmap should be from 2 weeks to 6 months depending on the situation. We can try to balance this out, but it's impossible to have a short amount of time for them all (i had one map ranked in 10 days and another one after 6 months) and it's impossible to have the same amount of time for them all.
About criteria, I have my own ideas that i can't share here now.

4.)
Explained why in 3.5?) and people before me explained about the star system

5.)
This usually doesn't happen actually (it may happen sometimes, we're human too) D:
I guess you were unlucky this time, how many times did you call the BAT back?

6.)
I explained why this happens in 3.)

About the last part, I'd need more details to give a proper opinion, so I'll be a bit harsh: just telling the problem isn't going to solve it. In my little, I'm tring to discuss with some people and I'm trying to have the staff notice some of the problems that i think they should be discussed and solved, but again, we're a few, you're a lot, we're all human. I'm sorry about first mappers too, but i can't possibly check all their maps, i just go random sometimes (and i like to check other people's maps too).

Hoping i didn't forget something, i think this closes my post and i don't think that something more should be said unless someone has some good ideas to share.

Hi Sekuyi, I'm going to directly address a solution to your problem in detail instead of going over your attitude and ethics towards all of this because that is largely irrelevant to me and not what you need right now.

Asking BATs to mod pending maps that aren't bubbled isn't likely going to be too successful. You'd be better off asking a MAT. If you've asked every last one and they refuse to mod your map, then we've got a serious problem, but for now, go ask them. If they find a problem or two with the map (as was the case with you), contact them again once you've fixed it. Once a map has been bubbled, it will eventually get looked at by a BAT. Do not forget this.

Yes, mapper favouritism and bias plays a part in the modding system, but that's unavoidable. The key here is that any map will certainly get looked at after it has been bubbled because there is a limit to how many maps can be bubbled at once and the map would have a chance to get chosen to be modded by a BAT wanting to clear up the bubbles. Of course, if it has been sitting there for some time, BAT members will likely make an effort to avoid more drama caused by this unsystematic way of modding and mod the old bubbled map. Nothing will sit there forever.

Good luck!

Thank you for all your replies. I think I am seeing clearer now
I'll try to be more patient and try to stay calm.

Sorry if someone felt attacked by me