Halozy - Kikoku Doukoku Jigokuraku

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Sakura chan
Even with sliders like these, this still deserves to be ranked more than apparition does
QMoaey
Did the sliders get easier after the update?
Release Notes for b20160723 (Stable): Make slider difficulty more conservative by only accounting for slider ticks, reverse arrows, and slider ends.
The only annoying sliders are the criss-crossy ones such as the slider at 05:01:977 (1), they just look like giant potatoe criss-crosses covering the screen.
Those would be better if with a more defined form (shapes that don't cover the entire screen) with more curvy tracks, such as the one at 05:08:171 (1), that one was pretty good.
Ashton
that sv
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

Zel wrote:

My point being is that the whole map is barely exceeding 5 stars while the sliders in the kiai are upwards of 6* to aim. It doesnt fit, if you want to keep the sliders in kiai then make rest of map harder.

It just doesnt mesh well together for the whole map to be so easy then suddenly very hard.
don't you think it's really common that a diff can contain really hard and really easy patterns at same time? every map is doing that, because songs require it. how easier part for low tension and harder part for heated kiai is not acceptable? i'm getting confused that you'll doult obvious things like this.

QMoaey wrote:

Did the sliders get easier after the update?
Release Notes for b20160723 (Stable): Make slider difficulty more conservative by only accounting for slider ticks, reverse arrows, and slider ends.
The only annoying sliders are the criss-crossy ones such as the slider at 05:01:977 (1), they just look like giant potatoe criss-crosses covering the screen.
Those would be better if with a more defined form (shapes that don't cover the entire screen) with more curvy tracks, such as the one at 05:08:171 (1), that one was pretty good. they are just in different way expressing tracks, and defined form style is not like easier than criss-crosses ones. actually, in exact tests from lots of testers, more broke their combos at 05:08:171 (1) than at 05:01:977 (1), because closer tracks in reading may give more stalbe aiming playability than fast single straightforward sliders crossing the whole screen, pre-read the track of those sliders is really important as you saw, then how you can state that "conservative designed" sliders is conservative? i did ask tons of tests to insist patterns like that.
thanks guys, and still waiting for next progress.
Osuology
o
Shoga

CLSW wrote:

People don't hate to change, just people are afraid to change.
Depends on who introduce that change and what kind of change
Pho
Found some time after exams o/

[General]
  1. SB is cool, but with the degree of awareness you need to follow these slidertracks in the kiais it's hard to enjoy fully outside autoplay mode (at least for me) :c


[Notch Hell]
  1. This map focuses on precise movement control and readability skills via fast complex-shaped sliders. Really makes for an interesting gameplay experience.
    There are a few sections where I feel the map is somewhat unfair though, and where it could be refined to avoid rage-inducing sliderbreaking:
    02:00:816 (1,2,3) - I think you could slightly lower the distance here. It forces a rather high movement to the upper-left and then immediately following the upcoming slider that goes in almost opposite direction.
    I believe decreasing spacing by just a slight amount (0.7xDS instead of 0.9xDS) would make it more manageable.
  2. 02:13:977 (3,4) - Potential candidate for unfair sliderbreaking. Movement in extremely sharp angles and the high spacing between 02:13:977 (3,4) - forces the player to leave 3 earlier to set on 4 quick enough.
    The upcoming back-and-forth movement between 02:14:461 (4,1,2) - makes this even worse. I believe making it flow more naturally here while still maintaining sharp angles between the objects for emphasis would be a better option here:
  3. 02:26:848 (4,1) - Similar as above. A bit better to handle but still unfair spacing. Try to decrease the spacing between both sliders a bit more (reduce to ~1.4xDS):
  4. 03:43:010 (3) - If this slider would go down a bit more to catch the momentum from 03:42:913 (2,3) - instead of going up right away it'd be really helpful to not break the combo.
  5. 04:05:364 (2,3) - Similar as above, this comes right after heavy-spaced 1/4 spacing and leads into a sharp 90° movement:
  6. 04:06:138 (1) - Could you move this more to the left side of 04:05:461 (3) - ? I feel this is better to handle for players
  7. 04:40:881 (4,5) - Would push this a bit more down, the antiflow between 04:40:881 (4,5,1) - isn't great with 1/4 beats and allowing a small angle would improve gameplay:
  8. 04:58:881 - So I've been playing this section a few dozen times to see how valid it is for ranking and I guess we can give it a try.
    I'm sure you know of the rule concerning slider readability:
    "Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read."
    The words 'ambiguous' and 'confusing for the player to read' are the main point here. The sliders themselves, as stated many times here already, have a clear and visible path.
    The problem for me and probably many other players is: The sliders are not confusing to read per se, but in the middle of playing the map, they are. (as a decent amount of time is necessary to analyze the heavy-overlapping slidertracks so you can follow it)
    You have to memorize the slidertracks and even then it's hard to follow them sufficiently without break.
    Seems like quite some higher-rank players are able to manage it though and I agree that the tracks are playable - so i give them the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes I wish I were better at this game orz
  9. 05:31:397 (1,2,3,4) - I just found it odd that these sliders had no anchors with them compared to previous similar sections where they do (02:24:042 - , 04:15:526 - ). Kind of contorts the integrity of the map, they seem misfitting.


Of course, take these just as what they are - advices. I tried to stay objective from the view of a relatively mediocre player who struggles with the map. Just give me a good reasoning for the things mentioned above and I'd gladly push this forward. Good luck!
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

Pho wrote:

Found some time after exams o/ i'm so stupid to forget checking the thread and delay this feedback for over 5 days ;w;

[General]
  1. SB is cool, but with the degree of awareness you need to follow these slidertracks in the kiais it's hard to enjoy fully outside autoplay mode (at least for me) :c welll, i think not all of storyboard are really helpful for playing, actually most of them effect playability very much and that's why nearly all of players will block the storyboard when they truely wanna play it and even get some high score on the board. so i think that's not quite a problem to give some flash brust in storyboard anyway.


[Notch Hell]
  1. This map focuses on precise movement control and readability skills via fast complex-shaped sliders. Really makes for an interesting gameplay experience.
    There are a few sections where I feel the map is somewhat unfair though, and where it could be refined to avoid rage-inducing sliderbreaking:
    02:00:816 (1,2,3) - I think you could slightly lower the distance here. It forces a rather high movement to the upper-left and then immediately following the upcoming slider that goes in almost opposite direction.
    I believe decreasing spacing by just a slight amount (0.7xDS instead of 0.9xDS) would make it more manageable. sure thing, changed the slider's shape a bit to shorter distance to about 0.7x here.
  2. 02:13:977 (3,4) - Potential candidate for unfair sliderbreaking. Movement in extremely sharp angles and the high spacing between 02:13:977 (3,4) - forces the player to leave 3 earlier to set on 4 quick enough.
    The upcoming back-and-forth movement between 02:14:461 (4,1,2) - makes this even worse. I believe making it flow more naturally here while still maintaining sharp angles between the objects for emphasis would be a better option here: thou i can just partly agree with you, but for you really know why i set that jump with anti-flow to emphasis shifted beats from vocal (which i am really appreciated to), i decide to follow your advice and change the flow to fluent one. your idea is awesome and just like what i wanna do to change that pattern, i'll fix it to kind of that, a bit different to your version thou.
  3. 02:26:848 (4,1) - Similar as above. A bit better to handle but still unfair spacing. Try to decrease the spacing between both sliders a bit more (reduce to ~1.4xDS): true, changed, but with the slider 4 reversed so that the flow may be better to fit the decrease part in tension here.
  4. 03:43:010 (3) - If this slider would go down a bit more to catch the momentum from 03:42:913 (2,3) - instead of going up right away it'd be really helpful to not break the combo. well for the consistant setting at 01:51:526 (3) - and 04:57:332 (3) - with other complex jumps, i think here's the better choice do same setting here. and for this part itself, new combo didn't effect the reading here so much, besides new combo actually started the new vocal track in another kind of way. so about this i choose no change.
  5. 04:05:364 (2,3) - Similar as above, this comes right after heavy-spaced 1/4 spacing and leads into a sharp 90° movement: well, detaily for this, i think the sharp movements can help players aiming and catching the rhythm than fluent ones. here the patterns has really complex composing with notes overlapped at 04:04:687 (1,2) - and the 1/4 jumps are really big. players may get focus on where's the next objects really carefully than just tapping to what the cursor should go. and in really nervous short time the 90° movements really helped to let players know where they really aimmed and hit, then, told them when and which way they should start to moving and tapping in a new kind of direction. it's just like the simple trick everyone used for anti-flows or reverse objects to emphasis beats or sounds, this is similar to that imo. so still keep this because i think it works better than every other patterns here.
  6. 04:06:138 (1) - Could you move this more to the left side of 04:05:461 (3) - ? I feel this is better to handle for players hmm ok, moved to shorter the ds at 04:06:138 (1,2) - to 0.8x.
  7. 04:40:881 (4,5) - Would push this a bit more down, the antiflow between 04:40:881 (4,5,1) - isn't great with 1/4 beats and allowing a small angle would improve gameplay: well i can agree with your version worked good here, but i still wanna insist my version because the flow at 04:40:977 (5,1) - is still an anti-flow after 04:40:687 (3,4) - even in your version. players would be very concentrated on the movement here to aim those notes carefully, anti-flows help them a lot. and another tiny reason here is just organization is locked and spacing or composing seems better to me with current version here lol.
  8. 04:58:881 - So I've been playing this section a few dozen times to see how valid it is for ranking and I guess we can give it a try. thank you very much.
    I'm sure you know of the rule concerning slider readability:
    "Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read."
    The words 'ambiguous' and 'confusing for the player to read' are the main point here. The sliders themselves, as stated many times here already, have a clear and visible path.
    The problem for me and probably many other players is: The sliders are not confusing to read per se, but in the middle of playing the map, they are. (as a decent amount of time is necessary to analyze the heavy-overlapping slidertracks so you can follow it)
    You have to memorize the slidertracks and even then it's hard to follow them sufficiently without break.
    Seems like quite some higher-rank players are able to manage it though and I agree that the tracks are playable - so i give them the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes I wish I were better at this game orz
  9. 05:31:397 (1,2,3,4) - I just found it odd that these sliders had no anchors with them compared to previous similar sections where they do (02:24:042 - , 04:15:526 - ). Kind of contorts the integrity of the map, they seem misfitting. yeah you are right (and you really good observer omg), i did that with different style sliders for the last kiai with higher tension, just like what i've did to those long sliders following vocals, differed from 1st and 2nd kiai's ones as well. so i think that'll be no problem, thou it's still lack of some reason why i use that kind of slider here, it's just like i would focus on "changing" or "shifting" to express the changing and shifting in the song i was following, and on the other hand, after really long track sliders' challenging, i think players should have some bit rest by releasing themselvs from those irregular sliders, that can be the real deep reason i set sliders in common curved style just here in this map.


Of course, take these just as what they are - advices. I tried to stay objective from the view of a relatively mediocre player who struggles with the map. Just give me a good reasoning for the things mentioned above and I'd gladly push this forward. Good luck! YOU ARE SOME KIND OF PRO MODDER TO ME. my fav modder list can have an additional name here now.
thanks for modding!!

note additional changes here:
04:18:623 (1) - changed this slider's control point a bit to avoid making some nearly-like-burai slider.
05:11:268 (1) - reversed this slider to give the original version which fit the general flow with consistant setting better.
Pho
Seems good now, let's push this forward. #2

Keep the thread civilized guys, thank you.
Video
Rankikoku Dakoku Mapokuraku
Zweib
when(
VINXIS
pho the gode.
sahuang
when
Misure
when
Iolite
wheeeeen
Elinia
BG棒!
Zetera
I'd like to state something about this map, since there are still things that, I feel, make this map unrankable.

First off, your idea of using noises produced by fire as a sliderslide is impressive, but the sound itself lacks of quality. It feels like the sound was cropped to only use the heights of the sound, ignoring the bass.

Also, the storyboard is killing my freshly upgraded computer, simply because it uses so many files to resemble the graphemes you used for the lyrics. Isn't there a simpler way of forming those? Possibly by using 1 file for one symbol? I bet you would still achieve a fire-like style through using the right utensils to draw them.

Furthermore, I'd like you to adjust the shapes of the quick sliders a little. The mere speed of those sliders in the kiais already poses an enormous difficulty spike, and to aid the player with following the slider, I don't think it is enough to keep a low tickrate. On the one hand, there are sliders that use an intuitive track, nicely playable because of their shape not being too extravagant (such as 02:20:945 (1) - because it can be played like a simple curve or 02:11:655 (1,2,3,1) - because of their cohesive flow. On the other hand, some sliders are either not using said principles and are therefore not nice to follow (examples: 02:14:752 (2) - because it breaks the priorly used clockwise oval flow very sharply; 03:44:558 (1) - because of the sudden horizontal speed increase (caused by the widescreen resolution); 02:08:558 (1) - 04:06:235 (2) - because of their numerous direction changes; 04:21:719 (1) - because it is very pointy and the individual spikes have sliderticks in them). However, the biggest problem are these sliders that overlap multiple times during the last kiai. They may look better than the others, but given the fact that there are so many tracks next to each other, it is hard to keep track of where to go next. Combined with the speed of those sliders, it creates an unpleasant experience playing these sliders. I am specifically addressing the following sliders:

05:01:977 (1) - after hitting the bottom left corner, the track of this slider suddenly becomes more horizontal, breaking the flow created by the previous notches. Possibly, if the tracks were further apart and the last bit of the slider was more vertival, it would be easier to follow. Also, making the slider overlap itself less adds to better playability.

05:08:171 (1) - The only thing confusing me is the beginning of the second half of this slider, since I think the upper left triangle leads immediately upwards and then later downwards, which obviously doesn't make sense, but it feels like that would happen when I scan the slider.

05:11:268 (1) - I somehow expect this slider to lead into the upper right corner first, since it would catch the dropoff a lot nicer combined with the previous circles. However, after following this one multiple times, I could agree with it going to the left. Instead, the problem lies within what you see when you hit the slider. there is something going around the head, and these tracks are processed prior to the part that is actually following the head. What I mean is that I see the stuff on the right side and I know how to follow it, but first I have to focus on where to go on with the left half before I can go to the bit that I have already understood. And since the left half is quite complex, this always leads to a sliderbreak or even a fail.

05:20:558 (1) - The one overlap that this slider has is ambiguous, it is not clear for me whether I need to go down first or go left first. Eradicating the overlap is the easiest and quickest solution.

Lastly, there is this one rhythmical error I find peculiar. 03:09:526 (3) - Are you sure you want to follow the lyrics here? There is this one sound at 03:09:623 - that you might want to emphatise instead.

It is debatable whether the other sliders are fine, but I feel like those are the ones you still need to put attention to in order to make this map become not redundantly difficult.

Good luck!
Koiyuki
some nazi mod
I feel the map breaks star rating again and will burn the community lol
for me it's a quite impressive and creative map
when you play this, the most problem of this map is reading
in fact you havent need to follow the silder at all, just follow the ticks
but it need the test of time and practice of players..

Notch Hell
  1. 00:16:881 (2) - remove whistle?
  2. 00:21:042 (6,2) - nazi stack
  3. 00:46:881 (3) - nc?
  4. 01:11:655 (3) - ^
  5. 02:07:880 (5) - nc
  6. 02:10:977 (5) - ^
  7. 02:19:397 (1,2) - 2的蓝线开始也不合vocal啊,不如3/4 slider+ 1/2 slider的组合
  8. 02:24:816 (2,3) - 02:25:590 (1,2) - 02:26:364 (3,4) - 都是这样,后面也是,一个滑条跟vocal开始一个滑条又不跟,我是觉得打起来感觉会不太好,vocal跟彻底点呗
  9. 03:03:139 (3) - nc?
  10. 03:44:364 (5,1) - 红点没拉到位吗?
  11. 03:59:364 (5) - 04:02:461 (5) - nc


rip my 2kds, and hw please reply Zetera's mod so I can go on.
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

Zetera wrote:

I'd like to state something about this map, since there are still things that, I feel, make this map unrankable.

First off, your idea of using noises produced by fire as a sliderslide is impressive, but the sound itself lacks of quality. It feels like the sound was cropped to only use the heights of the sound, ignoring the bass. all sliderslide's sounds are follow your "ignoring the bass" as well, maybe you shall ban them all before doubt mine.

Also, the storyboard is killing my freshly upgraded computer, simply because it uses so many files to resemble the graphemes you used for the lyrics. Isn't there a simpler way of forming those? Possibly by using 1 file for one symbol? I bet you would still achieve a fire-like style through using the right utensils to draw them. storyboard is some kind of related rare things to playing itself, if it distrub you so much then just enable "ignore storyboard" setting, or just delete the whole storyboard files. i can't find more easier idea than current ones to express "fire-like" spares, for the sb work is already done, i'll just keep the sb like this.

Furthermore, I'd like you to adjust the shapes of the quick sliders a little. The mere speed of those sliders in the kiais already poses an enormous difficulty spike, and to aid the player with following the slider, I don't think it is enough to keep a low tickrate. don't you think give additional sliderticks make the map more difficult and those sliders more "spike"? On the one hand, there are sliders that use an intuitive track, nicely playable because of their shape not being too extravagant (such as 02:20:945 (1) - because it can be played like a simple curve or 02:11:655 (1,2,3,1) - because of their cohesive flow. On the other hand, some sliders are either not using said principles and are therefore not nice to follow (examples: 02:14:752 (2) - because it breaks the priorly used clockwise oval flow very sharply; 03:44:558 (1) - because of the sudden horizontal speed increase (caused by the widescreen resolution); 02:08:558 (1) - 04:06:235 (2) - because of their numerous direction changes; 04:21:719 (1) - because it is very pointy and the individual spikes have sliderticks in them). However, the biggest problem are these sliders that overlap multiple times during the last kiai. They may look better than the others, but given the fact that there are so many tracks next to each other, it is hard to keep track of where to go next. Combined with the speed of those sliders, it creates an unpleasant experience playing these sliders. I am specifically addressing the following sliders:

05:01:977 (1) - after hitting the bottom left corner, the track of this slider suddenly becomes more horizontal, breaking the flow created by the previous notches. Possibly, if the tracks were further apart and the last bit of the slider was more vertival, it would be easier to follow. Also, making the slider overlap itself less adds to better playability. i don't see any obvious differences between your idea and mine. they are sliders complex to follow of course, for it's not following beats at angles or tricks or overlaps, flows will effect nearly nothing while playing slider like this. if you wanna mention the exact point of slider's shape follow the music, then i've explain the answer in previous mods. and if you doult of the playability of the slider itself, i wanna tell that if you got some aiming skill, you will find the differences you've mentioned here is just like "move a bit left or not".

05:08:171 (1) - The only thing confusing me is the beginning of the second half of this slider, since I think the upper left triangle leads immediately upwards and then later downwards, which obviously doesn't make sense, but it feels like that would happen when I scan the slider. i don't really understand the sense you wanna make. here again, if you wanna tell something about the slider's shape, you will get the answer as above imo.

05:11:268 (1) - I somehow expect this slider to lead into the upper right corner first, since it would catch the dropoff a lot nicer combined with the previous circles. However, after following this one multiple times, I could agree with it going to the left. Instead, the problem lies within what you see when you hit the slider. there is something going around the head, and these tracks are processed prior to the part that is actually following the head. What I mean is that I see the stuff on the right side and I know how to follow it, but first I have to focus on where to go on with the left half before I can go to the bit that I have already understood. And since the left half is quite complex, this always leads to a sliderbreak or even a fail.

05:20:558 (1) - The one overlap that this slider has is ambiguous, it is not clear for me whether I need to go down first or go left first. Eradicating the overlap is the easiest and quickest solution.

Lastly, there is this one rhythmical error I find peculiar. 03:09:526 (3) - Are you sure you want to follow the lyrics here? There is this one sound at 03:09:623 - that you might want to emphatise instead.

It is debatable whether the other sliders are fine, but I feel like those are the ones you still need to put attention to in order to make this map become not redundantly difficult. scanned the followed mods and nearly same to previous two so i just generally give feedback here for them: the slider's track, ofc it expressed the slider's shape, are always decided by mappers to choose which to use. do you think the mapper would exactly explain why he use straight slider here and curve slider there even for same pattern in the song? well, the answer is like what i've said before. you care the slider's track too much and didn't realise that the slider's shape do is a way of expressing the song, but not the only way or the way ought to be followed as always. maybe you can check those people give mods in previous pages, i know the general doult but it's like not really a good reason to bend the idea of those sliders: they are sliders follow the vocal track, however you say it just did it's job very well. thanks for the detail checking of the map's sliders, but the grand direction of point is some kind of deviated.

Good luck!

Koiyuki wrote:

some nazi mod
I feel the map breaks star rating again and will burn the community lol
for me it's a quite impressive and creative map
when you play this, the most problem of this map is reading
in fact you havent need to follow the silder at all, just follow the ticks
but it need the test of time and practice of players..

Notch Hell
  1. 00:16:881 (2) - remove whistle? 不要啊OVQ
  2. 00:21:042 (6,2) - nazi stack fixed, thou i think there'll be always bugs occured like this... orz
  3. 00:46:881 (3) - nc? 可。
  4. 01:11:655 (3) - ^ ^
  5. 02:07:880 (5) - nc fixed.
  6. 02:10:977 (5) - ^ ^
  7. 02:19:397 (1,2) - 2的蓝线开始也不合vocal啊,不如3/4 slider+ 1/2 slider的组合 哦这边并不是在跟vocal而是要转入吉他路线了,这个更主要是让后面的那些蓝线作个铺垫,这边很多人跟我说跟vocal好不过我是坚持认为这边的吉他比vocal更需要表现的。
  8. 02:24:816 (2,3) - 02:25:590 (1,2) - 02:26:364 (3,4) - 都是这样,后面也是,一个滑条跟vocal开始一个滑条又不跟,我是觉得打起来感觉会不太好,vocal跟彻底点呗 这边是N个人跟我提我还是没改的地方。。。理由同上。这边滑条我感觉即使我要全部改成只跟吉他也不会改成只跟vocal的。
  9. 03:03:139 (3) - nc? 可。
  10. 03:44:364 (5,1) - 红点没拉到位吗? 这边的位置倒是没什么特别的意义,没有特别想把5叠在滑条身子的边缘,我当时的想法是差不多放在那个拐弯稍微靠中线一点的地方就可以了。
  11. 03:59:364 (5) - 04:02:461 (5) - nc ^,其实本来不想改的毕竟这边nc都是根据梗的情况来决定是否要切梗而家的nc,不过既然那么错综不齐的话果然还是都加上吧。


rip my 2kds, and hw please reply Zetera's mod so I can go on. ok.
thanks for modding!
stryver12
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