forum

Strict full alternating training script

posted
Total Posts
120
show more
Drezi

KukiMonster wrote:

It actually does not matter if you full alternate triples (ZXZ XZX) coz triples have a gap between them, ZXZ ZXZ would still be just as effective. There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.
But that is simply not true.

Let's say we're doing 270 bpm, and long consecutive singletaps at this BPM strain you.

X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 -- 270 --- 270 -- 270 --- 270

taps with X going at 270 bpm singletapping speed.

X | Y | X | - | Y | X | Y | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- --- tap --- --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 ------ 180 ------ 180 --- 270

here after every 270 bpm tap, you have two 2/3 taps for each finger, which is easier to keep up.
Infevo
How would this script improve your alternating or your performance on the map even if you single tap everything. wtf is wrong with you?
I Give Up
I guess in high speed map where you're probably gonna fail in that case.
buny

Drezi wrote:

KukiMonster wrote:

It actually does not matter if you full alternate triples (ZXZ XZX) coz triples have a gap between them, ZXZ ZXZ would still be just as effective. There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.
But that is simply not true.

Let's say we're doing 270 bpm, and long consecutive singletaps at this BPM strain you.

X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 -- 270 --- 270 -- 270 --- 270

taps with X going at 270 bpm singletapping speed.

X | Y | X | - | Y | X | Y | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- --- tap --- --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 ------ 180 ------ 180 --- 270

here after every 270 bpm tap, you have two 2/3 taps for each finger, which is easier to keep up.
Easier to keep up physically, not mentally.
Drezi
When you're adept at alternating you don't have to think about which finger to use AT ALL, you just look at the rhythm you need to play, like everyone else.
buny
Who would've thought that years of experience could mitigate the downfall of a playstyle.
chainpullz

a loli wrote:

Who would've thought that years of experience could mitigate the downfall of a playstyle.
When you're adept at the game you don't have to think about how to play the game AT ALL, you just look at the maps, like everyone else.






















;)
Drezi
It's pretty painful tying to reason when you can't follow a single line of thought.

KukiMonster wrote:

There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.

chainpullz wrote:

It truly is an arbitrary constraint.
These points have been made. I demonstrated how they're not true, and how learning proper alternation (which OP is trying to do, and you're trying to say is useless as opposed to messy alternation) offers benefits in fact.

You go on to say "but it's hard to learn!!"

Seeing it now, how it doesn't make sense?

P.S.: It doesn't take years, only weeks at most, I learned those patterns in a few days of targeted practice, and it became completely natural after a few weeks of casual play using the style.

Also it's funny how you felt you're on to something chainpullz and quickly made a mocking comment, only to fail once again.

This is why you shouldn't just assume that you never misunderstand anything and start downtalking people right away. Read what is being said, double check your arguments, and concede the points you've been wrong on as soon as you realize it, over trying to salvage a situation where it's impossible for you to do this, due to the bigheaded tones you've hit before.
Kunino Sagiri
So what's the end goal/mission of this script? A better ratio of your K1 to K2 a.k.a Aesthetic?
buny
What exactly is the argument you are trying to make?

Who cares what playstyle you use, being this overly defensive about it makes you seem like you think you deserve an oscar or some shit.
DeathHydra
You guys are fighting over a playstyle? I thought playstyles are preference, unless it's a very high bpm maps where singletapping can't keep up with the speed.

Tbh I also agree that 'strict' alternating is just basically same with normal alternating (what I mean by normal is what every alternating player does, like Azer, rustbell, etc.). Surely alternating gives more benefits than singletaps especially on high bpm maps, but comparing strict alternating to alternating? Sounds dumb to me.

It's just my opinion, though.
Drezi
We are absolutely not fighting over playstyles. OP recieved some shit/idiotic feedback that made no sense after he shared his training script and I refuted those. That was the whole point of the argument.

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

So what's the end goal/mission of this script? A better ratio of your K1 to K2 a.k.a Aesthetic?
Helping you do proper alternating at hard parts too, not aesthetic.
Drezi

a loli wrote:

What exactly is the argument you are trying to make?
...
You bunch called OPs attempt of learning to properly alternate at hard parts too useless, I showed it's not useless.
Xyrus_old_1

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

I'm a full alternater and over the past few weeks I've started playing more maps with burts/streams. However I wasn't paying too much attention to the pattern in which I was clicking those bursts/streams and I've developed (what I would consider) a bad habit of inconsistently starting them. That is I would end up double tapping one key or the other a lot in complicated patterns. This has culminated in me not being able to handle complicated patterns with any consistency.
OP reads as though he is having trouble alternating properly on Bursts and multiple sets of triples, i.e. XXZXZXZ and is getting 100s all as a result of tensing his hands during streams.

Taken from t/187364
SPOILER
[quote=ScarletStory]
Okay here you are playing this map with DT and you're kicking a#$. You managed to get through most of the map with a respectable degree of accuracy and you just look great, but something is worrying you. That one long stream at the end of the map. Now you're thinking "WHICH A@#HOLE BEATMAPPER PUT THIS TROLL STREAM IN HERE?!?!"(just kidding I highly respect beatmappers you make the game awesome) but it's just the one stream and you are prepared! Man will outsmart the stream and live on just like in the old days when man outsmarted those lions and built fires to put in front of their rocks for protection, and then died from carbon monoxide poisoning(maybe), and then proceeded to build a fence instead... I digress, you get to the anticipated stream you start out PERFECT and then halfway through you start hitting hundreds and freeze up for a second and start mashing the keyboard and we all know what happens when you mash your keyboard in osu!... You miss.

Let me tell you something interesting about your brain. When our brain anticipates a stressful event it makes your muscles tense up in preparation to deal with whatever is causing the stress. Now before you go on to hit your head with a hammer to punish your brain for doing this stop and think about this. If you're out and about and you saw a bear would you rather your muscles be lose and unprepared to move or tense and ready to get the f#$@ outta there? Well depending on how much you value your life it could be either... but I would probably go with the ladder. Now the stream is that bear, you've been anticipating this stressful moment and now when it's finally here your body is just doing what it was made to do in stressful situations. It tenses your muscles (including the ones in your arm) thus makes your fingers stiff and as that happens the ability to move your fingers fluidly becomes extremely difficult and what was "zxzxzx" now becomes "xxzzxzx" and that is extremely detrimental to streaming.

If your muscles are tensed up you're probably not going to get very far in the stream. I have no trouble at all believing that you can get maybe 4 or 5 or maybe even 6 notes in during the time when you still have a decent amount of control over your fingers, however, as I've observed multiple times, somewhere in that stream at least one of your fingers is not going to want to respond and it will most likely cause you to push down on a key too hard and hold it there for maybe 1/2 of a second. I'm sure we can all appreciate how much of a difference 1/2 of a second makes in the great world of osu! that 1/2 second can be the difference between hitting a note and missing it entirely. That's not all folks, there's more! In order to compensate for that 1/2 second you're going to speed up and being unable to control your fingers you're probably just going to mix it all together or completely overcompensate for the time you lost by going way too fast. Then you get angry and do it again and again and again with the same end result.

With speed I can see how one would think that in order to go faster they should tense up their hand and press on the keys as hard as they can. It's natural to think that pressing down the keys harder makes you faster, however in reality, that's only going to slow you down. Try it our yourself. Open word and press down on the keys as hard as you can and see how long you can go until you slip up somewhere. Then, after a break of course, go back and try the same thing by pressing the keys down as lightly as you possibly can while still registering a keystroke. You'll probably notice that you have a lot more stamina when you lightly press keys as compared to when you press down on them as hard as you can, and not only will you have more stamina, you probably have more control too.

Now this is a bit tricky to fix because one might think "hey fast streams make me mess up I'll just practice by playing a bunch of 220 BPM deathstream maps". Now before you attempt to piss yourself off to no end, I have something else you can try. I would advise you to SLOW DOWN. Practice streaming at low BPM's so you can get a better feel for how your fingers work together and hopefully build up a better connection between your finger movements and how fast you're going. I don't know if this is just me but I feel like extremely slow streams (when alternating) are not as easy as they seem, naturally I want to go much faster than I should, but I do believe after doing slow streams you should have somewhat better control over your fingers and should also be much less likely to tense up during fast streams because you will have gained more control over your fingers in the sense that you understand how to make more fluid movements with smoother transitions.

If that doesn't work I do have one other option. You could put your tapping key on a large key on the keyboard (shift or backspace) and then use both of your fingers at the same time on that one key(for educational purposes only of course, I wouldn't advise you to play like that all the time). You may be asking what good is that going to do? Allow me to explain. When you are using one key and you stream you're probably going to find out fairly quickly that you're going to have to smoothly transition between fingers. If you leave your index finger on the shift bar then try to press on it with your middle finger before letting up on your index finger you wont register a keystroke, which in theory, should prevent your fingers from freezing up because you wont be able to allow your finger to stay down without missing (it's hard to explain but if you tried it you'd probably understand).[/quote]
The problem probably isn't the pattern he alternates with, but the unnecessary tension in his hand.
Kunino Sagiri

Drezi wrote:

Helping you do proper alternating at hard parts too
Your """"proper"""" alternating that this script could potentially give you, is a """"better"""" K1:K2 ratio which is Aesthetic.
-Makishima S-
TL;DR

Alternating / Single tapping is a playstyle and cannot be forced.
Both of them have advantages and disadvantages.
You should play most natural way as you feel like it.

Once i tryed to force alternating for me, as i am pure single tapping player - it ended up getting me headache and hand pain even bigger than i have after singletapping 200 bpm for 5 min.

I alternate randomly whenever for some reason i lose flow and need to regain speed in short amount of time but it's still natural reaction for me, not forced one.

This script is good for people who are naturally alternating and want to improve this skill to the edge.
Topic Starter
G3T

Xyrusd0t0 wrote:

OP reads as though he is having trouble alternating properly on Bursts and multiple sets of triples, i.e. XXZXZXZ and is getting 100s all as a result of tensing his hands during streams.

The problem probably isn't the pattern he alternates with, but the unnecessary tension in his hand.
You're half right. After looking at this and thinking about it some more I've realised what the problem actually was. My hands weren't cramping during the streams but at the start and end of the streams when I double tapped.

Even when full alternating the streaming and tapping motions are different and I can handle much higher tapping speeds with the streaming motion. I also haven't single tapped since my first week of osu! so my alternating tapping speed is faster than my single tap speed by a reasonable margin. Thus when I was double tapping at the start and end of streams or during fast slider transitions I was trying to single tap BPM's that I couldn't handle and my hand was cramping up.

By perfectly alternating those transitions I avoid single tapping BPMs that my hand can't handle.
Drezi

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Your """"proper"""" alternating that this script could potentially give you, is a """"better"""" K1:K2 ratio which is Aesthetic.
why don't you read what I've posted??? how hard is it to understand that it's not the case. omg. p/5012660

---

thread is not about alternating vs singletapping. it's about the usefulness of learning clean alternation (for novice alternaters) at more complicated patterns such as consecutive triplets etc. (and the stript that helps with this.)
Kunino Sagiri

Drezi wrote:

why don't you read what I've posted??? how hard is it to understand that it's not the case
you mean this?

X | Y | X | - | Y | X | Y | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- --- tap --- --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 ------ 180 ------ 180 --- 270

You seem to be blatantly ignoring the "-" part so it's not really valid. Alternating is to evenly divide the strain on a single pattern between 2 fingers accompanied with mental disadvantages. XYX-XYX is mixed with singletap/improper alternate because of X-X? Nah, it's still proper alternating as long as the perfect 1:1 (with the exceptions being odd numbered patterns singles,triples,quints etc. and the finger you should use at the end note is the one you started with) K1:K2 ratio is followed on a single pattern.

THIS is improper alternating

X | Y | X | X | X | X | Y | Y | X | Y | X |
Drezi
The whole point was to show the advantage of fully alternating those transitions, not to debate which qualifies as "proper alternating". That was just a fucking name I used to refer to the latter (which IS the most efficient as shown, thus the "proper" tag). And there are no mental disadvantages to either. Seeing how mentally handicapped you are, I guess there ARE people who are simply unable to cope with the process of learning it though, to get there.
Kunino Sagiri

Drezi wrote:

The whole point was to show the advantage of fully alternating those transitions, not to debate which qualifies as "proper alternating". And there are no mental disadvantages to either.
If you can't even establish what proper alternating is then you have no right to talk about efficiency. It's like a person talking about how hamburgers should be made or else it's not a hamburger when all he does is eat and didn't even bother to learn how to make them.

If you don't even know the already obvious mental disadvantage of said playstyle (body part that is used/not used is directly proportional to mental strain) then you have no right to talk about efficiency.
Drezi
I'm a full alternator, while you probably can't alternate for shit, I'm sure you're more knowledgeable about the mental strain I'm (not) putting up with than I am. It strains me mentally about as much as using two legs to walk (hint: not at all).

I already established what proper alternating is, it simply doesn't align with your (laughable) definition of it, but arguing which qualifies as "proper" has no bearing on the topic at hand at all.
The numbers speak for themselves regarding efficiency between the two cases............... it doesn't matter what names we stick above them, genius.

Yeah I have no right to... oh god.
I Give Up
The mental disadvantage is the fact that if you do not alternate this way, you're forcing a tapping style that is not natural for you and will probably have to double the effort to get anywhere in the game, which seems to be OP's dilemma. But in the end it does not matter, because you will be capped by stream and move speed whether you alternate or single tap.
B1rd
If you practice something enough, it becomes natural.
Yuudachi-kun

KukiMonster wrote:

The mental disadvantage is the fact that if you do not alternate this way, you're forcing a tapping style that is not natural for you and will probably have to double the effort to get anywhere in the game, which seems to be OP's dilemma. But in the end it does not matter, because you will be capped by stream and move speed whether you alternate or single tap.
Good thing there aren't that many stream maps above 270
koromo
There is no mental disadvantage to alternating, the only people who think that way are people who don't alternate. A rough start is natural, as it is with everything you're a novice at. Like you didn't suck when you started playing osu regardless of play style, this is just a new way to play, of course it would be difficult at first for most people. I alternate perfectly and I play HR most of the time, my accuracy and aim are my best traits.

Now, do you really think I'm capable of aiming every small circle on screen and tapping on time to get 99% OD10 accuracy while also "straining" myself to always use the next finger I'm supposed to use, alternating perfectly? I'm not that good.

This applies to all play styles, like people who alternate pen tap + keyboard key (Black Sheep style), sure I can't do it, but they can and they have no issue whatsoever handling tricky rhythm patterns and bpm changes, because it's their play style and they're used to it.

tl;dr I don't have to think, notes appear on screen and my body moves on its own. Also I used to single tap, my play style gradually shifted to alternating over time somehow.
Yuudachi-kun
Theres a mental disadvantage when you force yourself to alternate perfectly rather than plaing naturally
Drezi

Khelly wrote:

Theres a mental disadvantage when you force yourself to alternate perfectly rather than plaing naturally
yes there is, but it's called training good habits, so it's what becomes natural (if you want to be an alternater, that is).
Yuudachi-kun

Drezi wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Theres a mental disadvantage when you force yourself to alternate perfectly rather than plaing naturally
yes there is, but it's called training good habits, so it's what becomes natural.
And I'm not calling forcing yourself to perfectly alternate no matter what a good habit.
Drezi
edited my last post, right as you posted. it's not about singletappers of course.
Yuudachi-kun
I'm a singletapper and I almost always alternate successive sliders or slider note slider patterns (even in a jump) because that feels like the right thing to do. But sometimes I don't alternate those sliders, or sometimes I'll alternate to a stacked singletap section with my other finger and singletap those until the stack is done then alternate back to the next slider.

Just do whatever.
Drezi
Well, you probably haven't read the thread, so I don't really want to go at it from scratch again, but we established that:

- we're not arguing whether alternating or singletapping is better
- at normal sliders, slow parts etc, do whatever, it doesn't matter and isn't the topic of this discussion
- if you're trying to be an alternater, alternating perfectly at trickier patterns is beneficial, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you alternate 1/2s, but do xyx xyx on consecutive triples etc, since nor do you train your singletapping speed that is required to do these, nor can you benefit from the reduced strain by alternating starting fingers at such patterns aswell.
koromo

Khelly wrote:

I'm a singletapper and I almost always alternate successive sliders or slider note slider patterns (even in a jump) because that feels like the right thing to do. But sometimes I don't alternate those sliders, or sometimes I'll alternate to a stacked singletap section with my other finger and singletap those until the stack is done then alternate back to the next slider.
And for most people, none of that is natural, even though it feels right for you. But your play style was most likely not like this since your first day playing osu, it most likely developed over the years and it's what feels just right for you.

Same applies to alternating, whether it happens naturally like in my case or you actively practice for it, the end result is the same, you get used to something and it simply becomes your way of doing things, it doesn't feel forced and doesn't hurt accuracy or aim at all, there's no drawback if it's what you're used to and feel comfortable doing it.
Yuudachi-kun

koromo wrote:

Same applies to alternating, whether it happens naturally like in my case or you actively practice for it, the end result is the same, you get used to something and it simply becomes your way of doing things, it doesn't feel forced and doesn't hurt accuracy or aim at all, there's no drawback if it's what you're used to and feel comfortable doing it.
Then what's the point of this script? It seems like it's trying to force someone to play in a certain way only because they think they should do that rather than just playing and letting it happen.
koromo

Khelly wrote:

Then what's the point of this script? It seems like it's trying to force someone to play in a certain way only because they think they should do that rather than just playing and letting it happen.
Well if we're talking about the script then I also agree it's a bad idea. There is no need for a script like this even if OP wants to alternate perfectly, that's just silly.

Not saying he shouldn't try at all, just saying the script gives him 0 benefits while messing up his plays. Just practice normally instead.
Topic Starter
G3T

koromo wrote:

Well if we're talking about the script then I also agree it's a bad idea. There is no need for a script like this even if OP wants to alternate perfectly, that's just silly.

Not saying he shouldn't try at all, just saying the script gives him 0 benefits while messing up his plays. Just practice normally instead.
I think I've said this two or three times already, but the point was that I couldn't tell when I was double tapping during fast and/or complicated sections, which was in turn putting strains on my hand that would lead to my fingers locking. The the script gave me immediate visual feedback when I was double tapping, thus allowing me to much more quickly fix the problem than if I had concentrated on doing so without it.

I found it to be very effective as I got rid of all of the problems with a few hours of playing with the script and stopped using it. I have used it once or twice more to check if I've fallen back into bad habits and so far all is good.
koromo

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

I think I've said this two or three times already, but the point was that I couldn't tell when I was double tapping during fast and/or complicated sections, which was in turn putting strains on my hand that would lead to my fingers locking. The the script gave me immediate visual feedback when I was double tapping, thus allowing me to much more quickly fix the problem than if I had concentrated on doing so without it.

I found it to be very effective as I got rid of all of the problems with a few hours of playing with the script and stopped using it. I have used it once or twice more to check if I've fallen back into bad habits and so far all is good.
Then I don't know why Khelly would bring it up now, I haven't been actively following the discussion, was just replying to what was said to me.

If the visual feedback helped you fix it in a few hours then that's good. I've fixed all my bad habits just by concentrating on not doing it until it became natural so I still can't really feel the script was necessary but if it works for you then that's fine.
nrl
The real issue is that you could have fixed your problem by just concentrating a bit rather than purposefully limiting yourself with this script. You do you, so if the script worked then that's great, but I wouldn't personally ever recommend using this script to work on finger control, or really ever recommend anything that places rigid, artificial constraints on the player to train any sort of motor control. It just isn't the right way to do it.
Mio Winter
This is amazing and I love you if it works, but the question remains: Will I get banned for using it while logged in?
KupcaH

Mio Winter wrote:

This is amazing and I love you if it works, but the question remains: Will I get banned for using it while logged in?
Did you even read first post
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply