Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings

Strict full alternating training script

posted
Total Posts
120
show more
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
Ex.

but mostly just because the sliders themselves are slow as fuck so it minimizes the risk of breaking on the easiest section in the map. Otherwise usually sliders with like 1/6 or 1/8 gap
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

nrl wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Your whole post is just conjecture. Once you've practiced enough alternating will become as natural as singletapping, the extra hand coordination factor will be reduced to near zero. Alternating is not a streaming motion, only beginners in alternating feel like it makes everything into a super hard spaced stream because they are only used to using two fingers with streams.

So, alternating is a very useful skill to have, it allows you to do super high bpm stream patters and increases your finger control. If you continue to full alternate once you've mastered it or singletap low bpm maps, it really doesn't make that much of a difference.
My post isn't conjecture, I'm speaking from a position of experience, albeit somewhat limited experience. I routinely alternate maps that most people would singletap, and I have decent FCs on a few of them. And it's not like your post isn't conjecture as well; even if you do alternate (I don't know whether you do), you're certainly in no position to claim from a position of experience that alternating helps anything, let alone high bpm technical maps. We're both arguing from largely theoretical positions.

And yes, alternating is a stream motion, at least in a physical sense. If you're completely resetting each finger before moving the next one you don't gain any extra speed from using the second finger, you might as well just be single tapping. In order to see tangible speed benefits you need to start moving the second finger before the first one resets.

I'm really not arguing that alternating is a useful skill to have, and if you look through my post history you'll find posts where I actually recommend it under certain circumstances. The fact of the matter is that for most people it's just faster and more reliable to bring their single-tapping up to speed than it is to learn to alternate, and there's certainly no solid evidence that players who do alternate have advantages on certain types of maps.

And even if you're right, there's still no benefit to strict alternation over non-strict alternation.
I'm speaking form a combination of personal experience as well as a combination of observing pro players. I've went through stages where I alternated everything. I didn't get to the stage where I could avoid double tapping on stacks and streams, but I set some good scores on maps with spaced streams that I'm proud of that I don't think I could have done if I had been singletapping.

Saying that alternators have no advantage on certain maps is quite silly, how many people can singletap 360bpm? If you see a player who can SS Chevron DT whilst singletapping let me know. Alternators clearly have an advantage on these type of maps because it is extremely physically difficult to singletap them. Besides people like WWW, thelewa and Rucker who have amazing finger control and can execute weird spaced stream patterns like Kirby maps or maps like Shotgun Symphony, I'd also like to bring attention to DJ Fuduji. Look at his #1 nomod play on Speed of the Link, it shows how alternating can give a big advantage when trying to hold combo on extremely hard nomod maps which I supports my personal experience with alternating. Especially on maps with lots of short sliders, repeat sliders and spaced stream patterns. When you singletap, you have to release the key and then reactivate it, but with alternating, you don't even need to take your alternate finger of the other key before you can activate the other key. This makes you can execute super short repeat sliders without requiring a super fast release and reactivation; it reduce the chance of releasing at the wrong moment and breaking combo. It also gives you an 'emergency backup' if you stuff up your tapping and tap in open space; with singletapping you wouldn't have enough time tap again, but with alternating you can just slam down your other finger.
Basically you can spam with alternating to reduce chances of breaking combo, this is actually a bad habit of mine as it reinforces bad finger control habits, but it sometimes gives me an edge in multiplayer.

Anyway, I'm not saying that strict alternation gives an advantage over non-strict alternation. What I'm saying is that 1: Strict alternating is good way to learn opportunistic alternation, as to alternate properly you need to be able to start and finish streams and stacks without double tapping, and making sure your keystrokes are equal at the end of the map is a good way of doing this.

2: Mastering alternating will greatly improve your finger control as you are consciously aware of which finger you start and end a stream on, and this finger control will be beneficial even when you're singletapping. For example I find that with streams, especially with sliders mixed in, I don't know which finger I started and and don't know which finger I need to end on, and this results in me spamming a bit at the end of the stream and possibly doing extra keystrokes so I don't do a one less keystroke, which results in lower streaming accuracy. Learning alternating isn't the only way to get good finger control, but mastering alternating will guarantee you have good finger control.

3. Strict alternating isn't inferior to singletapping on slower maps, though it does take more time to master.
nrl
1,402 posts
Joined October 2011
nrl

B1rd wrote:

I'm speaking form a combination of personal experience as well as a combination of observing pro players. I've went through stages where I alternated everything. I didn't get to the stage where I could avoid double tapping on stacks and streams, but I set some good scores on maps with spaced streams that I'm proud of that I don't think I could have done if I had been singletapping.
Then we're speaking from exactly the same position, which was my point.

B1rd wrote:

Saying that alternators have no advantage on certain maps is quite silly, how many people can singletap 360bpm?
Perhaps my original statement was too heavy-handed, so I'll rephrase it a bit: the number of maps that are both worth playing and favor alternating to the degree that a single-tapper would be better served learning to alternate than attempt to single-tap them is very low. To rephrase it even further, there isn't a substantial set of high pp maps that alternators can play and single-tappers can't.

B1rd wrote:

1: Strict alternating is good way to learn opportunistic alternation, as to alternate properly you need to be able to start and finish streams and stacks without double tapping, and making sure your keystrokes are equal at the end of the map is a good way of doing this.

2: Mastering alternating will greatly improve your finger control as you are consciously aware of which finger you start and end a stream on, and this finger control will be beneficial even when you're singletapping.

B1rd wrote:

3. Strict alternating isn't inferior to singletapping on slower maps, though it does take more time to master.
I'm not saying any of these points are wrong, just that they're not the most cost effective way to achieve the desired results. Strict alternation is certainly a good way to learn to avoid double-tapping, but so is just focusing on not double-tapping. Mastering alternation is a good way to gain finger control, but so is just focusing on finger control. Unless you're extraordinarily uncoordinated, all you need in both cases is a little bit of discipline, and I guarantee you'll see results faster than if you tried to learn to alternate, or practiced strict alternation. It isn't enough in such a competitive environment to say "both of these things are useful once mastered," because what ultimately matters isn't the end result, it's how long it takes to get there.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Ehm, skimmed the thread, sorry if I didn't get the point right, but if by strict alternating we mean "starting streams triplets, whatever comes next with the other finger all the time", then this strictness is not really just an arbitrary decision.
You'll always be able to do triples, start consecutive bursts etc. at a higher bpm with xyx yxy xyx, but if you slip back into the xyx xyx habit or doubletap you're at your singletap limit there, and not getting the most out of alternating, so it makes sense if OP wants to get into the habit of cleanly alternating those parts aswell. (Yes, you can do whatever the hell you want on slow notes, but when your alternating is automatic it just feels natural to alternate everything anyway.)
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Drezi wrote:

Ehm, skimmed the thread, sorry if I didn't get the point right, but if by strict alternating we mean "starting streams triplets, whatever comes next with the other finger all the time", then this strictness is not really just an arbitrary decision.
You'll always be able to do triples, start consecutive bursts etc. at a higher bpm with xyx yxy xyx, but if you slip back into the xyx xyx habit or doubletap you're at your singletap limit there, and not getting the most out of alternating, so it makes sense if OP wants to get into the habit of cleanly alternating those parts aswell. (Yes, you can do whatever the hell you want on slow notes, but when your alternating is automatic it just feels natural to alternate everything anyway.)
Triples are no different than single taps with an extra circle inserted every other one. xyx xyx xyx is the same number of taps on your primary finger as x x x x x x is. There are just some secondary finger taps.

What people seem to be unable to understand (seriously you all have shit reading comprehension skills or something), is that Narrill isn't saying alternating is bad. If you even look at his fucking scores you'd notice he is one of the few people putting out HDHR fc's on these "alternate" maps in the first place. All hes saying, and you'll see this in 99% of the HR replays on this map, is that strict alternating is not practical.

The real question here is, if strict alternating is so desirable, why does no one actually do it on the maps where it should be superior? Aside from edge cases like mugio/rucker (who rarely play HR on these maps anyways) or yame every "alternating player" plays with uneven keycounts. Rustbell, adamqs, elysion, WWW, Axarious, GN, Riviclia, Recia etc. don't bother keeping keycounts matching.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Erm, what. There's like nothing in your post that, like, applies to what I've been saying.

- xyx yxy lets each finger have a small break after every triplet/part, which allows you to keep it up at a higher bpm than doing xyx xyx. It's just like you can do higher bpm streams with short rests, than a single deathstream.

- Thus in the beginning of my post I defined what I mean by strict alternating, and the above is the reason why it's worth doing, over being able to alternate 1/2-s only, and falling back to singletapping habits when it comes to starting triples/streams.

- Noone cares about even keycounts, alternating properly where it matters was the point.

But this is all there in my first post so I'm kinda confused.
Last edited by Drezi , edited 1 time in total.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Drezi wrote:

- Noone cares about even keycounts, alternating properly, where it matters was the point.
Did you not even read the OP? People's reading comprehension skills seriously puzzle me... THATS LITERALLY WHAT THIS ENTIRE FUCKING THREAD IS ABOUT
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

I'mI wasn't paying too much attention to the pattern in which I was clicking those bursts/streams and I've developed (what I would consider) a bad habit of inconsistently starting them. That is I would end up double tapping one key or the other a lot in complicated patterns. This has culminated in me not being able to handle complicated patterns with any consistency.
Nice reading comprehension there mate :!:
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Drezi wrote:

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

I'mI wasn't paying too much attention to the pattern in which I was clicking those bursts/streams and I've developed (what I would consider) a bad habit of inconsistently starting them. That is I would end up double tapping one key or the other a lot in complicated patterns. This has culminated in me not being able to handle complicated patterns with any consistency.
Nice reading comprehension there mate :!:

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

The below is an autohotkey script that only allows the keys to be pressed in a strict zxzxzxzxzxzx pattern with no variation i.e. if you try to press out of sequence you miss.
/title
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Just... wow. And you dare hit a condescending tone, that's really something.

The REASON why he made such a script was what I quoted above, and he even clarified it later:

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

The problem I encountered was that I was favoring one finger for starting bursts/streams and sometimes adding double taps to complicated mixed patterns, and while this worked some of the time it would end up confusing my fingers and I'd miss notes.

I'm fairly sure I'd picked up the weird tapping style from trying to spam slightly too difficult songs and though I probably could have made it work with practice I'm fairly sure strict alternation will be more consistent in the long run.
And after this nrl still replied that he thought it's an arbitrary constraint:

nrl wrote:

It just seems like a really arbitrary constraint is all
That's why I explained it's not and OP is totally right in his attempt of cleaning up his alternation.

The parts he talked about, not completely irrelevant long notes sliders etc..

:arrow: Where it matters.

Get it? :idea:
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Drezi wrote:

And after this nrl still replied that he thought it's an arbitrary constraint:

nrl wrote:

It just seems like a really arbitrary constraint is all
That's why I explained it's not and OP is totally right in his attempt of cleaning up his alternation.

The parts he talked about, not completely irrelevant long notes sliders etc..

:arrow: Where it matters.

Get it? :idea:
First, thread is about the script, not the OP's alternating. That was just what motivated script... So yes, you have still failed to understand the goal of the thread. The argument that is going on unbeknownst to half the people arguing is whether or not such a script is worth using (hint: it's not).

Second, I'm aware of narrill's credibility when it comes to playing technical maps with HDHR. He has a few rank 1's, lots of top 50's, and even more impressive non-fc's on technical maps HDHR. You have yet to provide a single reason why one should believe your word on this matter over his (similar for some of the other people in this thread too but oh well).

It truly is an arbitrary constraint.

What you and half the other people fail to grasp is that you can do all these things without strict alternating. You can xyx yxy to your heart's content while not actually strictly alternating (though in practice it doesn't make a difference since maps with consecutive triples also have streams you'd fail at if you can't single tap that speed). You can start any pattern with any finger without strictly alternating (It's actually a trivial proof to show that the same does not hold for strict alternating).

Is strictly alternating a viable playstyle? Sure. Is it optimal? Not at all. It's not difficult to come up with patterns that point out weaknesses for any given playstyle besides the playstyle where you tap with whatever finger you damn well feel like tapping with. This is the type of playstyle that enables crazy plays on technical maps and fast maps alike.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
This script is a literal waste of memory.
G3T
39 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
G3T
What is going on in this thread?

I'd assumed the discussion had been based on some basic bits of common sense, but it seems I may have been interpreting things wrong. Forcing yourself to strict alternate absolutely everything is fucking stupid and the script is, and I quote my own first post:

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

intended purely for training purposes because it's very easy to have misses unrelated to bad alternating when you're starting a map or after breaks.


I only mentioned keycounts because I had very large discrepancies that which told me that I might be creating what I see as bad habits during the fast and complicated sections of songs.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

What is going on in this thread?

I'd assumed the discussion had been based on some basic bits of common sense, but it seems I may have been interpreting things wrong. Forcing yourself to strict alternate absolutely everything is fucking stupid and the script is, and I quote my own first post:

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

intended purely for training purposes because it's very easy to have misses unrelated to bad alternating when you're starting a map or after breaks.


I only mentioned keycounts because I had very large discrepancies that which told me that I might be creating what I see as bad habits during the fast and complicated sections of songs.
There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.

a loli wrote:

This script is a literal waste of memory.
G3T
39 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
G3T

chainpullz wrote:

There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.
I'm not practicing a playstyle I never plan to use. I'm fixing my current playstyle. I want to be strict full alternating streams/bursts/fast taps because that's where the advantage comes in. The script is there to give me feedback when I'm not doing that but also has the side effect that I need to strict alternate at the beginning of a song/after breaks which leads to stupid misses. This is why I disclaimed it as for training purposes only. Once I've developed proper alternation in the sections where it matters I can stop using it and it no longer matters what key I start with after breaks.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Don't worry OP, your script is fine, people are too damn stupid to understand what you're trying to accomplish.

chainpullz wrote:

First, thread is about the script, not the OP's alternating. That was just what motivated script... So yes, you have still failed to understand the goal of the thread. The argument that is going on unbeknownst to half the people arguing is whether or not such a script is worth using (hint: it's not)..
I think the OP made the goal of the script crystal clear at this point, I really have nothing more to say if you still can't follow these simple steps of cause and effect.

chainpullz wrote:

There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.
He uses the script to make sure he doesn't mess up his alternating at complicated parts. It's a crutch. It helps him notice immediately if his alternation is getting messy. Do you need a script to learn clean alternation? No but it's a handy tool to force the good habits he's trying to build up.
As a side effect it forces him to alternate everything else. Simply because it was easier to write the script that way. And if you learn full alternation you can use whichever finger you want effortlessly on slow parts anyway, so it makes zero difference if the script forces alternation there too. It's not a "playstyle you never plan to use", you're just hung up on a non-relevant part of said playstyle...

Yet you're here thinking it's other people that FAIL TO UNDERSTAND stuff, right...

chainpullz wrote:

You have yet to provide a single reason why one should believe your word on this matter over his (similar for some of the other people in this thread too but oh well).

It truly is an arbitrary constraint.
It's called LOGIC, which you clearly don't have much to speak of.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.
strict full alternating streams/bursts/fast taps because that's where the advantage comes in.
Uh, then that's not "strict" alternating. Even single tappers keep perfect key counts on individual bursts/streams. I'm not misinterpreting your writing, you are using the terminology incorrectly.


Drezi wrote:

He uses the script to make sure he doesn't mess up his alternating at complicated parts. It's a crutch. It helps him notice immediately if his alternation is getting messy. Do you need a script to learn clean alternation? No but it's a handy tool to force the good habits he's trying to build up.
As a side effect it forces him to alternate everything else.
Except messy alternation isn't a bad thing. Hitting 300s is more important than perfect alternation. If you aren't hitting 300's there's a great big 100 50 X that pop up on the screen to tell you that you fucked up. So again, quoting buny

a loli wrote:

This script is a literal waste of memory.

Drezi wrote:

And if you learn full alternation you can use whichever finger you want effortlessly on slow parts anyway, so it makes zero difference if the script forces alternation there too.
Except not if you are strictly alternating. Since you apparently fail to understand a trivial fact let me spell it out for you with help from the OP.

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

zxzxzxzxzxzx pattern with no variation
Pf:
Let us assume the player is strictly alternating

Let x_i denote the i'th circle in the map.

Without loss of generality assume x_i was hit with x

Then it follows that x_(i+1) must be hit with z.

\qed

The whole idea of being able to start patterns on either finger is that you have the flexibility of double tapping or alternating. Practicing with this script will lessen your ability to hit with either finger.

Drezi wrote:

Yet you're here thinking it's other people that FAIL TO UNDERSTAND stuff, right...

It's called LOGIC, which you clearly don't have much to speak of.
Please, I'm a Mathematician. You don't want to get into an argument about logic with me.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

chainpullz wrote:

Please, I'm a Mathematician. You don't want to get into an argument about logic with me.
That's what we're doing right now, and you're not doing good so far! Bring it on.

chainpullz wrote:

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

strict full alternating streams/bursts/fast taps because that's where the advantage comes in.
Uh, then that's not "strict" alternating. Even single tappers keep perfect key counts on individual bursts/streams. I'm not misinterpreting your writing, you are using the terminology incorrectly.
...he means keeping up his alternation when it comes to starting triplets streams bursts etc. xy...x - yx...y instead of xy...x - xy...x. :idea:

chainpullz wrote:

Except messy alternation isn't a bad thing. Hitting 300s is more important than perfect alternation.
No shit, being accurate is important, but for our argument it has no relevance, you can be accurate with either style. :idea:
But as I've already explained, there's a benefit to keeping up proper alternation (xyx yxy), otherwise you're back to your singletapping limits at these parts. :idea:

chainpullz wrote:

\qed
Your pompous rundown serves no purpose, other than desperately trying to look smart. Guess what, proudly writing qed after adding 1 and 1 makes you look stupid.

chainpullz wrote:

The whole idea of being able to start patterns on either finger is that you have the flexibility of double tapping or alternating. Practicing with this script will lessen your ability to hit with either finger.
Practicing with this script will make sure that you start with whichever finger comes next. To do that, you need to be able to start triples/streams with BOTH of your fingers freely, and to beginner alternators this is a challange. If they concentrate, they can alternate 1/2s, but when it's two triples or more complicated patterns, somtimes they'll use their main finger twice instead of alternating the starting finger (xyx yxy). Thus the script helps with starting on either finger as neeed during alternation. :idea:

Switching between singletapping xyx xyx and alternating xyx yxy during hard parts is what we call messy alternation, and mixing them there is OBVIOUSLY not what you want to do, when you're trying to alternate. The script helps you get rid of this, and do proper alternation, where you have no problem starting on either finger as needed (so that you gain full benefit of the alternation, which you're trying to do) at harder parts too. :idea:

You failed at reading comprehension twice (as in WHY he's trying to use the script), you failed at understanding what benefits there are to proper alternation, you failed at understanding how the script helps with what he's trying to achieve.
Xyrus_old_1
407 posts
Joined October 2015
Xyrus_old_1
Mom! Dad! Please stop fighting! We love you both! *lies*
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
It actually does not matter if you full alternate triples (ZXZ XZX) coz triples have a gap between them, ZXZ ZXZ would still be just as effective. There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles. Assuming you are proficient streamer (stream close to your max single tap speed), a set of 4 Z-Z-Z-Z singles would consume almost as much stamina as a 7 note stream ZXZXZXZ. Whereas being able to alternate the 4 set single Z-X-Z-X would consume a lot less.

The only kind of useful alternating you need is for those songs that demand very fast single taps. Full alternate does not have to be perfect 1:1 Z:X clicks, even I would consider this full alternate style:
Map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/507099
Replay: http://puu.sh/o4ukS/a2006be231.osr
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

KukiMonster wrote:

It actually does not matter if you full alternate triples (ZXZ XZX) coz triples have a gap between them, ZXZ ZXZ would still be just as effective. There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.
But that is simply not true.

Let's say we're doing 270 bpm, and long consecutive singletaps at this BPM strain you.

X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 -- 270 --- 270 -- 270 --- 270

taps with X going at 270 bpm singletapping speed.

X | Y | X | - | Y | X | Y | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- --- tap --- --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 ------ 180 ------ 180 --- 270

here after every 270 bpm tap, you have two 2/3 taps for each finger, which is easier to keep up.
Last edited by Drezi , edited 2 times in total.
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo
How would this script improve your alternating or your performance on the map even if you single tap everything. wtf is wrong with you?
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
I guess in high speed map where you're probably gonna fail in that case.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Drezi wrote:

KukiMonster wrote:

It actually does not matter if you full alternate triples (ZXZ XZX) coz triples have a gap between them, ZXZ ZXZ would still be just as effective. There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.
But that is simply not true.

Let's say we're doing 270 bpm, and long consecutive singletaps at this BPM strain you.

X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 -- 270 --- 270 -- 270 --- 270

taps with X going at 270 bpm singletapping speed.

X | Y | X | - | Y | X | Y | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- --- tap --- --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 ------ 180 ------ 180 --- 270

here after every 270 bpm tap, you have two 2/3 taps for each finger, which is easier to keep up.
Easier to keep up physically, not mentally.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
When you're adept at alternating you don't have to think about which finger to use AT ALL, you just look at the rhythm you need to play, like everyone else.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
Who would've thought that years of experience could mitigate the downfall of a playstyle.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

a loli wrote:

Who would've thought that years of experience could mitigate the downfall of a playstyle.
When you're adept at the game you don't have to think about how to play the game AT ALL, you just look at the maps, like everyone else.






















;)
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
It's pretty painful tying to reason when you can't follow a single line of thought.

KukiMonster wrote:

There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.

chainpullz wrote:

It truly is an arbitrary constraint.
These points have been made. I demonstrated how they're not true, and how learning proper alternation (which OP is trying to do, and you're trying to say is useless as opposed to messy alternation) offers benefits in fact.

You go on to say "but it's hard to learn!!"

Seeing it now, how it doesn't make sense?

P.S.: It doesn't take years, only weeks at most, I learned those patterns in a few days of targeted practice, and it became completely natural after a few weeks of casual play using the style.

Also it's funny how you felt you're on to something chainpullz and quickly made a mocking comment, only to fail once again.

This is why you shouldn't just assume that you never misunderstand anything and start downtalking people right away. Read what is being said, double check your arguments, and concede the points you've been wrong on as soon as you realize it, over trying to salvage a situation where it's impossible for you to do this, due to the bigheaded tones you've hit before.
Kunino Sagiri
272 posts
Joined January 2012
Kunino Sagiri
So what's the end goal/mission of this script? A better ratio of your K1 to K2 a.k.a Aesthetic?
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
What exactly is the argument you are trying to make?

Who cares what playstyle you use, being this overly defensive about it makes you seem like you think you deserve an oscar or some shit.
DeathHydra
651 posts
Joined November 2015
DeathHydra
You guys are fighting over a playstyle? I thought playstyles are preference, unless it's a very high bpm maps where singletapping can't keep up with the speed.

Tbh I also agree that 'strict' alternating is just basically same with normal alternating (what I mean by normal is what every alternating player does, like Azer, rustbell, etc.). Surely alternating gives more benefits than singletaps especially on high bpm maps, but comparing strict alternating to alternating? Sounds dumb to me.

It's just my opinion, though.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
We are absolutely not fighting over playstyles. OP recieved some shit/idiotic feedback that made no sense after he shared his training script and I refuted those. That was the whole point of the argument.

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

So what's the end goal/mission of this script? A better ratio of your K1 to K2 a.k.a Aesthetic?
Helping you do proper alternating at hard parts too, not aesthetic.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

a loli wrote:

What exactly is the argument you are trying to make?
...
You bunch called OPs attempt of learning to properly alternate at hard parts too useless, I showed it's not useless.
Xyrus_old_1
407 posts
Joined October 2015
Xyrus_old_1

G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:

I'm a full alternater and over the past few weeks I've started playing more maps with burts/streams. However I wasn't paying too much attention to the pattern in which I was clicking those bursts/streams and I've developed (what I would consider) a bad habit of inconsistently starting them. That is I would end up double tapping one key or the other a lot in complicated patterns. This has culminated in me not being able to handle complicated patterns with any consistency.
OP reads as though he is having trouble alternating properly on Bursts and multiple sets of triples, i.e. XXZXZXZ and is getting 100s all as a result of tensing his hands during streams.

Taken from t/187364
SPOILER
[quote=ScarletStory]
Okay here you are playing this map with DT and you're kicking a#$. You managed to get through most of the map with a respectable degree of accuracy and you just look great, but something is worrying you. That one long stream at the end of the map. Now you're thinking "WHICH A@#HOLE BEATMAPPER PUT THIS TROLL STREAM IN HERE?!?!"(just kidding I highly respect beatmappers you make the game awesome) but it's just the one stream and you are prepared! Man will outsmart the stream and live on just like in the old days when man outsmarted those lions and built fires to put in front of their rocks for protection, and then died from carbon monoxide poisoning(maybe), and then proceeded to build a fence instead... I digress, you get to the anticipated stream you start out PERFECT and then halfway through you start hitting hundreds and freeze up for a second and start mashing the keyboard and we all know what happens when you mash your keyboard in osu!... You miss.

Let me tell you something interesting about your brain. When our brain anticipates a stressful event it makes your muscles tense up in preparation to deal with whatever is causing the stress. Now before you go on to hit your head with a hammer to punish your brain for doing this stop and think about this. If you're out and about and you saw a bear would you rather your muscles be lose and unprepared to move or tense and ready to get the f#$@ outta there? Well depending on how much you value your life it could be either... but I would probably go with the ladder. Now the stream is that bear, you've been anticipating this stressful moment and now when it's finally here your body is just doing what it was made to do in stressful situations. It tenses your muscles (including the ones in your arm) thus makes your fingers stiff and as that happens the ability to move your fingers fluidly becomes extremely difficult and what was "zxzxzx" now becomes "xxzzxzx" and that is extremely detrimental to streaming.

If your muscles are tensed up you're probably not going to get very far in the stream. I have no trouble at all believing that you can get maybe 4 or 5 or maybe even 6 notes in during the time when you still have a decent amount of control over your fingers, however, as I've observed multiple times, somewhere in that stream at least one of your fingers is not going to want to respond and it will most likely cause you to push down on a key too hard and hold it there for maybe 1/2 of a second. I'm sure we can all appreciate how much of a difference 1/2 of a second makes in the great world of osu! that 1/2 second can be the difference between hitting a note and missing it entirely. That's not all folks, there's more! In order to compensate for that 1/2 second you're going to speed up and being unable to control your fingers you're probably just going to mix it all together or completely overcompensate for the time you lost by going way too fast. Then you get angry and do it again and again and again with the same end result.

With speed I can see how one would think that in order to go faster they should tense up their hand and press on the keys as hard as they can. It's natural to think that pressing down the keys harder makes you faster, however in reality, that's only going to slow you down. Try it our yourself. Open word and press down on the keys as hard as you can and see how long you can go until you slip up somewhere. Then, after a break of course, go back and try the same thing by pressing the keys down as lightly as you possibly can while still registering a keystroke. You'll probably notice that you have a lot more stamina when you lightly press keys as compared to when you press down on them as hard as you can, and not only will you have more stamina, you probably have more control too.

Now this is a bit tricky to fix because one might think "hey fast streams make me mess up I'll just practice by playing a bunch of 220 BPM deathstream maps". Now before you attempt to piss yourself off to no end, I have something else you can try. I would advise you to SLOW DOWN. Practice streaming at low BPM's so you can get a better feel for how your fingers work together and hopefully build up a better connection between your finger movements and how fast you're going. I don't know if this is just me but I feel like extremely slow streams (when alternating) are not as easy as they seem, naturally I want to go much faster than I should, but I do believe after doing slow streams you should have somewhat better control over your fingers and should also be much less likely to tense up during fast streams because you will have gained more control over your fingers in the sense that you understand how to make more fluid movements with smoother transitions.

If that doesn't work I do have one other option. You could put your tapping key on a large key on the keyboard (shift or backspace) and then use both of your fingers at the same time on that one key(for educational purposes only of course, I wouldn't advise you to play like that all the time). You may be asking what good is that going to do? Allow me to explain. When you are using one key and you stream you're probably going to find out fairly quickly that you're going to have to smoothly transition between fingers. If you leave your index finger on the shift bar then try to press on it with your middle finger before letting up on your index finger you wont register a keystroke, which in theory, should prevent your fingers from freezing up because you wont be able to allow your finger to stay down without missing (it's hard to explain but if you tried it you'd probably understand).[/quote]
The problem probably isn't the pattern he alternates with, but the unnecessary tension in his hand.
Kunino Sagiri
272 posts
Joined January 2012
Kunino Sagiri

Drezi wrote:

Helping you do proper alternating at hard parts too
Your """"proper"""" alternating that this script could potentially give you, is a """"better"""" K1:K2 ratio which is Aesthetic.
Last edited by Kunino Sagiri , edited 1 time in total.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
TL;DR

Alternating / Single tapping is a playstyle and cannot be forced.
Both of them have advantages and disadvantages.
You should play most natural way as you feel like it.

Once i tryed to force alternating for me, as i am pure single tapping player - it ended up getting me headache and hand pain even bigger than i have after singletapping 200 bpm for 5 min.

I alternate randomly whenever for some reason i lose flow and need to regain speed in short amount of time but it's still natural reaction for me, not forced one.

This script is good for people who are naturally alternating and want to improve this skill to the edge.
G3T
39 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
G3T

Xyrusd0t0 wrote:

OP reads as though he is having trouble alternating properly on Bursts and multiple sets of triples, i.e. XXZXZXZ and is getting 100s all as a result of tensing his hands during streams.

The problem probably isn't the pattern he alternates with, but the unnecessary tension in his hand.
You're half right. After looking at this and thinking about it some more I've realised what the problem actually was. My hands weren't cramping during the streams but at the start and end of the streams when I double tapped.

Even when full alternating the streaming and tapping motions are different and I can handle much higher tapping speeds with the streaming motion. I also haven't single tapped since my first week of osu! so my alternating tapping speed is faster than my single tap speed by a reasonable margin. Thus when I was double tapping at the start and end of streams or during fast slider transitions I was trying to single tap BPM's that I couldn't handle and my hand was cramping up.

By perfectly alternating those transitions I avoid single tapping BPMs that my hand can't handle.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Your """"proper"""" alternating that this script could potentially give you, is a """"better"""" K1:K2 ratio which is Aesthetic.
why don't you read what I've posted??? how hard is it to understand that it's not the case. omg. p/5012660

---

thread is not about alternating vs singletapping. it's about the usefulness of learning clean alternation (for novice alternaters) at more complicated patterns such as consecutive triplets etc. (and the stript that helps with this.)
Kunino Sagiri
272 posts
Joined January 2012
Kunino Sagiri

Drezi wrote:

why don't you read what I've posted??? how hard is it to understand that it's not the case
you mean this?

X | Y | X | - | Y | X | Y | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- --- tap --- --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 ------ 180 ------ 180 --- 270

You seem to be blatantly ignoring the "-" part so it's not really valid. Alternating is to evenly divide the strain on a single pattern between 2 fingers accompanied with mental disadvantages. XYX-XYX is mixed with singletap/improper alternate because of X-X? Nah, it's still proper alternating as long as the perfect 1:1 (with the exceptions being odd numbered patterns singles,triples,quints etc. and the finger you should use at the end note is the one you started with) K1:K2 ratio is followed on a single pattern.

THIS is improper alternating

X | Y | X | X | X | X | Y | Y | X | Y | X |
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
The whole point was to show the advantage of fully alternating those transitions, not to debate which qualifies as "proper alternating". That was just a fucking name I used to refer to the latter (which IS the most efficient as shown, thus the "proper" tag). And there are no mental disadvantages to either. Seeing how mentally handicapped you are, I guess there ARE people who are simply unable to cope with the process of learning it though, to get there.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
57 / 120