It took me forever to realise you weren't some random and were actually narrill.
Your whole post is just conjecture. Once you've practiced enough alternating will become as natural as singletapping, the extra hand coordination factor will be reduced to near zero. Alternating is not a streaming motion, only beginners in alternating feel like it makes everything into a super hard spaced stream because they are only used to using two fingers with streams.nrl wrote:
And how would you know whether it's as simple as that? I don't see anything technical in your top ranks, or even anything high bpm. And the fastest players out there don't alternate. The reason it isn't that simple is that it takes far more hand coordination, an order of magnitude more, to combine what is essentially a stream motion with snapping, and it takes an order of magnitude more on top of that to keep that combination together while the speed of the stream motion changes, like going from 1/2s to 1/4s. It isn't a matter of whether it's effective, it's a matter of whether it's cost effective. Single tapping is more intuitive for most players, is way less error prone due to not requiring anywhere near the same level of hand coordination, and is still perfectly feasible at super high bpms. I'm saying this as someone who's seriously tried alternating for exactly the reason you describe.
But even if we ignore all that, you still don't need to strict alternate. You just don't, the potential benefits of alternation can be had without it.
My post isn't conjecture, I'm speaking from a position of experience, albeit somewhat limited experience. I routinely alternate maps that most people would singletap, and I have decent FCs on a few of them. And it's not like your post isn't conjecture as well; even if you do alternate (I don't know whether you do), you're certainly in no position to claim from a position of experience that alternating helps anything, let alone high bpm technical maps. We're both arguing from largely theoretical positions.B1rd wrote:
Your whole post is just conjecture. Once you've practiced enough alternating will become as natural as singletapping, the extra hand coordination factor will be reduced to near zero. Alternating is not a streaming motion, only beginners in alternating feel like it makes everything into a super hard spaced stream because they are only used to using two fingers with streams.
So, alternating is a very useful skill to have, it allows you to do super high bpm stream patters and increases your finger control. If you continue to full alternate once you've mastered it or singletap low bpm maps, it really doesn't make that much of a difference.
These two maps are good examples of what I am talking about. The first one would be singletappable for me but since there's lots of sliders in a row it would feel very awkward even though the normal note jumps I singletap.nrl wrote:
I wouldn't recommend doing that on every slider unless you're already used to it, but doing it on really tight sliders is good if you can manage it, and sometimes flat-out necessary. I try to always alternate repeat sliders (hold sliders or whatever they're called).
I'm speaking form a combination of personal experience as well as a combination of observing pro players. I've went through stages where I alternated everything. I didn't get to the stage where I could avoid double tapping on stacks and streams, but I set some good scores on maps with spaced streams that I'm proud of that I don't think I could have done if I had been singletapping.nrl wrote:
My post isn't conjecture, I'm speaking from a position of experience, albeit somewhat limited experience. I routinely alternate maps that most people would singletap, and I have decent FCs on a few of them. And it's not like your post isn't conjecture as well; even if you do alternate (I don't know whether you do), you're certainly in no position to claim from a position of experience that alternating helps anything, let alone high bpm technical maps. We're both arguing from largely theoretical positions.B1rd wrote:
Your whole post is just conjecture. Once you've practiced enough alternating will become as natural as singletapping, the extra hand coordination factor will be reduced to near zero. Alternating is not a streaming motion, only beginners in alternating feel like it makes everything into a super hard spaced stream because they are only used to using two fingers with streams.
So, alternating is a very useful skill to have, it allows you to do super high bpm stream patters and increases your finger control. If you continue to full alternate once you've mastered it or singletap low bpm maps, it really doesn't make that much of a difference.
And yes, alternating is a stream motion, at least in a physical sense. If you're completely resetting each finger before moving the next one you don't gain any extra speed from using the second finger, you might as well just be single tapping. In order to see tangible speed benefits you need to start moving the second finger before the first one resets.
I'm really not arguing that alternating is a useful skill to have, and if you look through my post history you'll find posts where I actually recommend it under certain circumstances. The fact of the matter is that for most people it's just faster and more reliable to bring their single-tapping up to speed than it is to learn to alternate, and there's certainly no solid evidence that players who do alternate have advantages on certain types of maps.
And even if you're right, there's still no benefit to strict alternation over non-strict alternation.
Then we're speaking from exactly the same position, which was my point.B1rd wrote:
I'm speaking form a combination of personal experience as well as a combination of observing pro players. I've went through stages where I alternated everything. I didn't get to the stage where I could avoid double tapping on stacks and streams, but I set some good scores on maps with spaced streams that I'm proud of that I don't think I could have done if I had been singletapping.
Perhaps my original statement was too heavy-handed, so I'll rephrase it a bit: the number of maps that are both worth playing and favor alternating to the degree that a single-tapper would be better served learning to alternate than attempt to single-tap them is very low. To rephrase it even further, there isn't a substantial set of high pp maps that alternators can play and single-tappers can't.B1rd wrote:
Saying that alternators have no advantage on certain maps is quite silly, how many people can singletap 360bpm?
B1rd wrote:
1: Strict alternating is good way to learn opportunistic alternation, as to alternate properly you need to be able to start and finish streams and stacks without double tapping, and making sure your keystrokes are equal at the end of the map is a good way of doing this.
2: Mastering alternating will greatly improve your finger control as you are consciously aware of which finger you start and end a stream on, and this finger control will be beneficial even when you're singletapping.
I'm not saying any of these points are wrong, just that they're not the most cost effective way to achieve the desired results. Strict alternation is certainly a good way to learn to avoid double-tapping, but so is just focusing on not double-tapping. Mastering alternation is a good way to gain finger control, but so is just focusing on finger control. Unless you're extraordinarily uncoordinated, all you need in both cases is a little bit of discipline, and I guarantee you'll see results faster than if you tried to learn to alternate, or practiced strict alternation. It isn't enough in such a competitive environment to say "both of these things are useful once mastered," because what ultimately matters isn't the end result, it's how long it takes to get there.B1rd wrote:
3. Strict alternating isn't inferior to singletapping on slower maps, though it does take more time to master.
Triples are no different than single taps with an extra circle inserted every other one. xyx xyx xyx is the same number of taps on your primary finger as x x x x x x is. There are just some secondary finger taps.Drezi wrote:
Ehm, skimmed the thread, sorry if I didn't get the point right, but if by strict alternating we mean "starting streams triplets, whatever comes next with the other finger all the time", then this strictness is not really just an arbitrary decision.
You'll always be able to do triples, start consecutive bursts etc. at a higher bpm with xyx yxy xyx, but if you slip back into the xyx xyx habit or doubletap you're at your singletap limit there, and not getting the most out of alternating, so it makes sense if OP wants to get into the habit of cleanly alternating those parts aswell. (Yes, you can do whatever the hell you want on slow notes, but when your alternating is automatic it just feels natural to alternate everything anyway.)
Did you not even read the OP? People's reading comprehension skills seriously puzzle me... THATS LITERALLY WHAT THIS ENTIRE FUCKING THREAD IS ABOUTDrezi wrote:
- Noone cares about even keycounts, alternating properly, where it matters was the point.
Nice reading comprehension there mateG3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
I'mI wasn't paying too much attention to the pattern in which I was clicking those bursts/streams and I've developed (what I would consider) a bad habit of inconsistently starting them. That is I would end up double tapping one key or the other a lot in complicated patterns. This has culminated in me not being able to handle complicated patterns with any consistency.
Drezi wrote:
Nice reading comprehension there mateG3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
I'mI wasn't paying too much attention to the pattern in which I was clicking those bursts/streams and I've developed (what I would consider) a bad habit of inconsistently starting them. That is I would end up double tapping one key or the other a lot in complicated patterns. This has culminated in me not being able to handle complicated patterns with any consistency.
/titleG3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
The below is an autohotkey script that only allows the keys to be pressed in a strict zxzxzxzxzxzx pattern with no variation i.e. if you try to press out of sequence you miss.
And after this nrl still replied that he thought it's an arbitrary constraint:G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
The problem I encountered was that I was favoring one finger for starting bursts/streams and sometimes adding double taps to complicated mixed patterns, and while this worked some of the time it would end up confusing my fingers and I'd miss notes.
I'm fairly sure I'd picked up the weird tapping style from trying to spam slightly too difficult songs and though I probably could have made it work with practice I'm fairly sure strict alternation will be more consistent in the long run.
That's why I explained it's not and OP is totally right in his attempt of cleaning up his alternation.nrl wrote:
It just seems like a really arbitrary constraint is all
First, thread is about the script, not the OP's alternating. That was just what motivated script... So yes, you have still failed to understand the goal of the thread. The argument that is going on unbeknownst to half the people arguing is whether or not such a script is worth using (hint: it's not).Drezi wrote:
And after this nrl still replied that he thought it's an arbitrary constraint:That's why I explained it's not and OP is totally right in his attempt of cleaning up his alternation.nrl wrote:
It just seems like a really arbitrary constraint is all
The parts he talked about, not completely irrelevant long notes sliders etc..
Where it matters.
Get it?
G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
intended purely for training purposes because it's very easy to have misses unrelated to bad alternating when you're starting a map or after breaks.
There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
What is going on in this thread?
I'd assumed the discussion had been based on some basic bits of common sense, but it seems I may have been interpreting things wrong. Forcing yourself to strict alternate absolutely everything is fucking stupid and the script is, and I quote my own first post:G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
intended purely for training purposes because it's very easy to have misses unrelated to bad alternating when you're starting a map or after breaks.
I only mentioned keycounts because I had very large discrepancies that which told me that I might be creating what I see as bad habits during the fast and complicated sections of songs.
a loli wrote:
This script is a literal waste of memory.
I'm not practicing a playstyle I never plan to use. I'm fixing my current playstyle. I want to be strict full alternating streams/bursts/fast taps because that's where the advantage comes in. The script is there to give me feedback when I'm not doing that but also has the side effect that I need to strict alternate at the beginning of a song/after breaks which leads to stupid misses. This is why I disclaimed it as for training purposes only. Once I've developed proper alternation in the sections where it matters I can stop using it and it no longer matters what key I start with after breaks.chainpullz wrote:
There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.
I think the OP made the goal of the script crystal clear at this point, I really have nothing more to say if you still can't follow these simple steps of cause and effect.chainpullz wrote:
First, thread is about the script, not the OP's alternating. That was just what motivated script... So yes, you have still failed to understand the goal of the thread. The argument that is going on unbeknownst to half the people arguing is whether or not such a script is worth using (hint: it's not)..
He uses the script to make sure he doesn't mess up his alternating at complicated parts. It's a crutch. It helps him notice immediately if his alternation is getting messy. Do you need a script to learn clean alternation? No but it's a handy tool to force the good habits he's trying to build up.chainpullz wrote:
There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.
It's called LOGIC, which you clearly don't have much to speak of.chainpullz wrote:
You have yet to provide a single reason why one should believe your word on this matter over his (similar for some of the other people in this thread too but oh well).
It truly is an arbitrary constraint.
Uh, then that's not "strict" alternating. Even single tappers keep perfect key counts on individual bursts/streams. I'm not misinterpreting your writing, you are using the terminology incorrectly.G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
strict full alternating streams/bursts/fast taps because that's where the advantage comes in.chainpullz wrote:
There is 0 reason to practice a playstyle you never plan to use then.
Except messy alternation isn't a bad thing. Hitting 300s is more important than perfect alternation. If you aren't hitting 300's there's a great big 100 50 X that pop up on the screen to tell you that you fucked up. So again, quoting bunyDrezi wrote:
He uses the script to make sure he doesn't mess up his alternating at complicated parts. It's a crutch. It helps him notice immediately if his alternation is getting messy. Do you need a script to learn clean alternation? No but it's a handy tool to force the good habits he's trying to build up.
As a side effect it forces him to alternate everything else.
a loli wrote:
This script is a literal waste of memory.
Except not if you are strictly alternating. Since you apparently fail to understand a trivial fact let me spell it out for you with help from the OP.Drezi wrote:
And if you learn full alternation you can use whichever finger you want effortlessly on slow parts anyway, so it makes zero difference if the script forces alternation there too.
Pf:G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
zxzxzxzxzxzx pattern with no variation
Please, I'm a Mathematician. You don't want to get into an argument about logic with me.Drezi wrote:
Yet you're here thinking it's other people that FAIL TO UNDERSTAND stuff, right...
It's called LOGIC, which you clearly don't have much to speak of.
That's what we're doing right now, and you're not doing good so far! Bring it on.chainpullz wrote:
Please, I'm a Mathematician. You don't want to get into an argument about logic with me.
...he means keeping up his alternation when it comes to starting triplets streams bursts etc. xy...x - yx...y instead of xy...x - xy...x.chainpullz wrote:
Uh, then that's not "strict" alternating. Even single tappers keep perfect key counts on individual bursts/streams. I'm not misinterpreting your writing, you are using the terminology incorrectly.G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
strict full alternating streams/bursts/fast taps because that's where the advantage comes in.
No shit, being accurate is important, but for our argument it has no relevance, you can be accurate with either style.chainpullz wrote:
Except messy alternation isn't a bad thing. Hitting 300s is more important than perfect alternation.
Your pompous rundown serves no purpose, other than desperately trying to look smart. Guess what, proudly writing qed after adding 1 and 1 makes you look stupid.chainpullz wrote:
\qed
Practicing with this script will make sure that you start with whichever finger comes next. To do that, you need to be able to start triples/streams with BOTH of your fingers freely, and to beginner alternators this is a challange. If they concentrate, they can alternate 1/2s, but when it's two triples or more complicated patterns, somtimes they'll use their main finger twice instead of alternating the starting finger (xyx yxy). Thus the script helps with starting on either finger as neeed during alternation.chainpullz wrote:
The whole idea of being able to start patterns on either finger is that you have the flexibility of double tapping or alternating. Practicing with this script will lessen your ability to hit with either finger.
But that is simply not true.KukiMonster wrote:
It actually does not matter if you full alternate triples (ZXZ XZX) coz triples have a gap between them, ZXZ ZXZ would still be just as effective. There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.
Easier to keep up physically, not mentally.Drezi wrote:
But that is simply not true.KukiMonster wrote:
It actually does not matter if you full alternate triples (ZXZ XZX) coz triples have a gap between them, ZXZ ZXZ would still be just as effective. There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.
Let's say we're doing 270 bpm, and long consecutive singletaps at this BPM strain you.
X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 -- 270 --- 270 -- 270 --- 270
taps with X going at 270 bpm singletapping speed.
X | Y | X | - | Y | X | Y | - | X | Y | X |
tap --- tap --- --- tap --- --- tap --- tap
??? --- 270 ------ 180 ------ 180 --- 270
here after every 270 bpm tap, you have two 2/3 taps for each finger, which is easier to keep up.
When you're adept at the game you don't have to think about how to play the game AT ALL, you just look at the maps, like everyone else.a loli wrote:
Who would've thought that years of experience could mitigate the downfall of a playstyle.
KukiMonster wrote:
There is no advantage in full alternating asside from conserving stamina during singles.
These points have been made. I demonstrated how they're not true, and how learning proper alternation (which OP is trying to do, and you're trying to say is useless as opposed to messy alternation) offers benefits in fact.chainpullz wrote:
It truly is an arbitrary constraint.