lol, what a faggot
Out of all the top "alternate" players, very few do so strictly. Yes, it is indeed unnatural. Not very often will the rhythmic emphasis fall on the same finger in strict alternating because music does not adhere to this notion. More commonly the emphasis will come after odd numbers of notes meaning that every other emphasis you have to tap on a different finger when strictly alternating. This is ignoring other factors such as syncopation which further complicate which finger the next emphasis lands on if you are strict alternating.HK_ wrote:
This is a basic example of a person talking about something they have no clue about. Come back when you learn to alternate. And don't do this anymore. Ever.Kisses wrote:
isnt it un-natural to alternate everything though? I mean if you wanted to strictly alternate without any errors what so ever Im pretty sure that would be harder to learn.
Generally people press one key for everything and only alternate when there are 1/4 spaced notes; so you dont really have to use your brain whilst playing you just click what you see. Where as alternating on the other hand, when playing more complicated rhythms you would have to stop the fluid motion to pause and keep in your head for which finger you just used. That seems way more harder and seems like youre forcing unnecessary difficulty and skill to play
No, the more natural way is to literally use whatever finger feels right. In order for alternating to "feel natural" you must do it unnaturally for a very long period of time. Confining your tapping by any set of rules is unnatural. You should just tap with whatever finger feels right and what works. People who think you can confine music to a set of rules are narrow minded and/or lack a proper understanding of music. This extends to rhythm games to an extent as the rhythms followed are an embedding of the music.Endaris wrote:
Well, going full alternate without exception is still natural in a way as you can disable any kind of thinking which finger comes next once you got used to it.
That is at least my feeling compared to semi-alternate styles that have somewhat inconsistent ways of dealing with alternating.
One guy from my friendlist for example is playing fullalternate but he plays consecutive triples zxz zxz zxz which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. He also feels handicapped by this habit but he's too lazy to get rid of it.
I rarely do one "singletap" within one of my plays, mostly if I lock up for some random reason but it's far from the rule(I also don't alternate consecutive spinners unless im meme'ing).
On topic:
You don't need that script.
All that script can give to you is feedback when you actually go into your mashing mode.
That's not bad but you seem to notice already when you do it.
A better idea would be playing slower maps where you can consciously control your movement and reinforce the habit of alternating strictly.
Did you even watch any of the HR plays on that map? None of them strictly alternated. You'll notice this in most any HR play of a "alternate" map. I mean sure, if you want to look like a robot like mugio go and put in the extra 1000 hours learning how to keep your keycounts perfect. It's not natural.Endaris wrote:
Well, theoretically you're right chainpullz but it is not quite possible to keep up with faster/more difficult patterns without developing a clear structure how you tap in which situation. Patterns will just confuse you, you will lag behind, etc.
There are very rare moments when "doing what feels right" opposed to technically correct playing actually messes me up, for example on this map:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/344620?m=0
It feels totally good to not lift my finger from the key instantly when I land on the last note of a pattern in the second part that is stacked on the double(circle+slider) that starts the next pattern. That messes my timing up because I don't manage to reset the key and hit it again before I have to hit the slider which often causes me to lag behind at that point and makes me a lot more susceptible to combobreaks.
tl;dr
Playing difficult maps in osu! is never going to be natural.
Might also be why mapping is hard.
I only noticed that I do it because I turned the key overlay on and there was a large (>20 on msot maps) difference between the keypresses. As I'd said previously I wasn't very aware of which finger was pressing what. With the script I could shape my behaviour using a familiar system of feedback and after a few hours of playing yesterday I was nearly back to naturally strict alternating.Endaris wrote:
On topic:
You don't need that script.
All that script can give to you is feedback when you actually go into your mashing mode.
That's not bad but you seem to notice already when you do it.
A better idea would be playing slower maps where you can consciously control your movement and reinforce the habit of alternating strictly.
The point of strict full alternating is to completely separate the pattern of finger alternation from whatever rhythm one is playing. It's something I do for the sake of speed and stamina; I'm not trying to follow the rhythm with two fingers, I'm trying to follow the rhythm with a set of alternating fingers.chainpullz wrote:
No, the more natural way is to literally use whatever finger feels right. In order for alternating to "feel natural" you must do it unnaturally for a very long period of time. Confining your tapping by any set of rules is unnatural. You should just tap with whatever finger feels right and what works. People who think you can confine music to a set of rules are narrow minded and/or lack a proper understanding of music. This extends to rhythm games to an extent as the rhythms followed are an embedding of the music.
Except no musician worth their salt would agree with this statement.G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
I also find it funny that playing any instrument requires one to 'confine music to a set of rules'.
What is music theory? (sorry, couldn't resist, I'm just using my natural Australian shitposting instincts at this point, I don't actually know what I'm talking about)chainpullz wrote:
Except no musician worth their salt would agree with this statement.
No, the analogue to tapping in osu is tonguing for brass instruments where you use both sides of the tongue to "double tongue" for fast rhythms (ie. 16th notes and faster). It not at all natural to double tongue everything.G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
What is music theory? (sorry, couldn't resist, I'm just using my natural Australian shitposting instincts at this point, I don't actually know what I'm talking about)chainpullz wrote:
Except no musician worth their salt would agree with this statement.
Anyway I was referring to the fact that playing an instrument requires immense amounts of training because it's not natural; you have to learn to associate extremely precise movements with feedback (which in this case is the sound the instrument produces). Strict alternating is just a more complicated way of associating finger movements with clicks in osu!.
Saying 'it's more natural' is no argument that it is better. It feels unnatural at first, but once you get used to it it feels natural and singletapping feels natural, like anything. It's always best to use the proper technique first as that way you will be learning the proper way rather than developing bad muscle memory that you will have to relearn later.chainpullz wrote:
No, the more natural way is to literally use whatever finger feels right. In order for alternating to "feel natural" you must do it unnaturally for a very long period of time. Confining your tapping by any set of rules is unnatural. You should just tap with whatever finger feels right and what works. People who think you can confine music to a set of rules are narrow minded and/or lack a proper understanding of music. This extends to rhythm games to an extent as the rhythms followed are an embedding of the music.
I'm not even sure what we're discussing anymore. I agree that it's not the way that one instinctively wants to tap the keys. I also have very little knowledge of music and the philosophy thereof and was just fucking around with semantics.chainpullz wrote:
No, the analogue to tapping in osu is tonguing for brass instruments where you use both sides of the tongue to "double tongue" for fast rhythms (ie. 16th notes and faster). It not at all natural to double tongue everything.
Music theory is just that - theory. It in no way imposes "rules" on musical performance. Rather, a performance has certain goals in mind and music theory merely seeks to provide suggestions for reaching these goals. No two performances are the same.
You're sort of correct here, but not really. While one of the primary goals of instrument training is to develop an instinctual conformity to proper technique, the technique is often fairly low level, and exists solely for the purpose of putting the player in a better position to coax the instrument into producing the sounds they want. It's meant to provide flexibility, not structure, and strict alternation doesn't do that at all. You want to relate the finger patterns to the underlying rhythm in a meaningful, fundamental way.G3TTR1GG3R3D wrote:
Anyway I was referring to the fact that playing an instrument requires immense amounts of training because it's not natural; you have to learn to associate extremely precise movements with feedback (which in this case is the sound the instrument produces). Strict alternating is just a more complicated way of associating finger movements with clicks in osu!.
I think I understand where the disjoint in our understanding is now. The point of strict alternating is that the action of alternating becomes that 'low level' technique, it's less akin to someone alternating to the rhythm and more to someone single tapping but with two alternating fingers. I'm not trying to match my finger pattern at all to the rhythm, it's simply a technique used to increase my base speed and stamina at the cost of an increased level of difficulty in mastering the technique.nrl wrote:
You're sort of correct here, but not really. While one of the primary goals of instrument training is to develop an instinctual conformity to proper technique, the technique is often fairly low level, and exists solely for the purpose of putting the player in a better position to coax the instrument into producing the sounds they want. It's meant to provide flexibility, not structure, and strict alternation doesn't do that at all. You want to relate the finger patterns to the underlying rhythm in a meaningful, fundamental way.
Strict alternation will take tons of extra time to train, and will provide exactly zero benefit.nrl wrote:
It's meant to provide flexibility, not structure, and strict alternation doesn't do that at all.
Except for the massive benefit of effectively being able to use two fingers instead of one and pretty much doubling the BPM that you can singletap.nrl wrote:
Strict alternation will take tons of extra time to train, and will provide exactly zero benefit.
I'm not really sure what position to take at this point. As I've said previously I'm not advocating for the style. It's something I do and feels most natural for me. The whole reason I created the training script was because I had gotten out of the style because of mashing maps that were too hard for me and it had been tripping me up on things I should be able to play well.nrl wrote:
This was the important part of that post:Strict alternation will take tons of extra time to train, and will provide exactly zero benefit.nrl wrote:
It's meant to provide flexibility, not structure, and strict alternation doesn't do that at all.
It is as simple as that, you get two fingers to use instead of one. On low bpm maps it doesn't matter if you alternate or singletap, however alternating on everything trains your alternating skills, which you can then apply to maps where alternating is useful, like super high bpm technical maps.nrl wrote:
Anyone who's ever actually alternated will point out that it isn't as simple as that, and even if it were, there's still no need to strict alternate. Just single tap like normal, but alternate 1/2s as well as 1/4s.
Your whole post is just conjecture. Once you've practiced enough alternating will become as natural as singletapping, the extra hand coordination factor will be reduced to near zero. Alternating is not a streaming motion, only beginners in alternating feel like it makes everything into a super hard spaced stream because they are only used to using two fingers with streams.nrl wrote:
And how would you know whether it's as simple as that? I don't see anything technical in your top ranks, or even anything high bpm. And the fastest players out there don't alternate. The reason it isn't that simple is that it takes far more hand coordination, an order of magnitude more, to combine what is essentially a stream motion with snapping, and it takes an order of magnitude more on top of that to keep that combination together while the speed of the stream motion changes, like going from 1/2s to 1/4s. It isn't a matter of whether it's effective, it's a matter of whether it's cost effective. Single tapping is more intuitive for most players, is way less error prone due to not requiring anywhere near the same level of hand coordination, and is still perfectly feasible at super high bpms. I'm saying this as someone who's seriously tried alternating for exactly the reason you describe.
But even if we ignore all that, you still don't need to strict alternate. You just don't, the potential benefits of alternation can be had without it.
My post isn't conjecture, I'm speaking from a position of experience, albeit somewhat limited experience. I routinely alternate maps that most people would singletap, and I have decent FCs on a few of them. And it's not like your post isn't conjecture as well; even if you do alternate (I don't know whether you do), you're certainly in no position to claim from a position of experience that alternating helps anything, let alone high bpm technical maps. We're both arguing from largely theoretical positions.B1rd wrote:
Your whole post is just conjecture. Once you've practiced enough alternating will become as natural as singletapping, the extra hand coordination factor will be reduced to near zero. Alternating is not a streaming motion, only beginners in alternating feel like it makes everything into a super hard spaced stream because they are only used to using two fingers with streams.
So, alternating is a very useful skill to have, it allows you to do super high bpm stream patters and increases your finger control. If you continue to full alternate once you've mastered it or singletap low bpm maps, it really doesn't make that much of a difference.
These two maps are good examples of what I am talking about. The first one would be singletappable for me but since there's lots of sliders in a row it would feel very awkward even though the normal note jumps I singletap.nrl wrote:
I wouldn't recommend doing that on every slider unless you're already used to it, but doing it on really tight sliders is good if you can manage it, and sometimes flat-out necessary. I try to always alternate repeat sliders (hold sliders or whatever they're called).
I'm speaking form a combination of personal experience as well as a combination of observing pro players. I've went through stages where I alternated everything. I didn't get to the stage where I could avoid double tapping on stacks and streams, but I set some good scores on maps with spaced streams that I'm proud of that I don't think I could have done if I had been singletapping.nrl wrote:
My post isn't conjecture, I'm speaking from a position of experience, albeit somewhat limited experience. I routinely alternate maps that most people would singletap, and I have decent FCs on a few of them. And it's not like your post isn't conjecture as well; even if you do alternate (I don't know whether you do), you're certainly in no position to claim from a position of experience that alternating helps anything, let alone high bpm technical maps. We're both arguing from largely theoretical positions.B1rd wrote:
Your whole post is just conjecture. Once you've practiced enough alternating will become as natural as singletapping, the extra hand coordination factor will be reduced to near zero. Alternating is not a streaming motion, only beginners in alternating feel like it makes everything into a super hard spaced stream because they are only used to using two fingers with streams.
So, alternating is a very useful skill to have, it allows you to do super high bpm stream patters and increases your finger control. If you continue to full alternate once you've mastered it or singletap low bpm maps, it really doesn't make that much of a difference.
And yes, alternating is a stream motion, at least in a physical sense. If you're completely resetting each finger before moving the next one you don't gain any extra speed from using the second finger, you might as well just be single tapping. In order to see tangible speed benefits you need to start moving the second finger before the first one resets.
I'm really not arguing that alternating is a useful skill to have, and if you look through my post history you'll find posts where I actually recommend it under certain circumstances. The fact of the matter is that for most people it's just faster and more reliable to bring their single-tapping up to speed than it is to learn to alternate, and there's certainly no solid evidence that players who do alternate have advantages on certain types of maps.
And even if you're right, there's still no benefit to strict alternation over non-strict alternation.
Then we're speaking from exactly the same position, which was my point.B1rd wrote:
I'm speaking form a combination of personal experience as well as a combination of observing pro players. I've went through stages where I alternated everything. I didn't get to the stage where I could avoid double tapping on stacks and streams, but I set some good scores on maps with spaced streams that I'm proud of that I don't think I could have done if I had been singletapping.
Perhaps my original statement was too heavy-handed, so I'll rephrase it a bit: the number of maps that are both worth playing and favor alternating to the degree that a single-tapper would be better served learning to alternate than attempt to single-tap them is very low. To rephrase it even further, there isn't a substantial set of high pp maps that alternators can play and single-tappers can't.B1rd wrote:
Saying that alternators have no advantage on certain maps is quite silly, how many people can singletap 360bpm?
B1rd wrote:
1: Strict alternating is good way to learn opportunistic alternation, as to alternate properly you need to be able to start and finish streams and stacks without double tapping, and making sure your keystrokes are equal at the end of the map is a good way of doing this.
2: Mastering alternating will greatly improve your finger control as you are consciously aware of which finger you start and end a stream on, and this finger control will be beneficial even when you're singletapping.
I'm not saying any of these points are wrong, just that they're not the most cost effective way to achieve the desired results. Strict alternation is certainly a good way to learn to avoid double-tapping, but so is just focusing on not double-tapping. Mastering alternation is a good way to gain finger control, but so is just focusing on finger control. Unless you're extraordinarily uncoordinated, all you need in both cases is a little bit of discipline, and I guarantee you'll see results faster than if you tried to learn to alternate, or practiced strict alternation. It isn't enough in such a competitive environment to say "both of these things are useful once mastered," because what ultimately matters isn't the end result, it's how long it takes to get there.B1rd wrote:
3. Strict alternating isn't inferior to singletapping on slower maps, though it does take more time to master.
Triples are no different than single taps with an extra circle inserted every other one. xyx xyx xyx is the same number of taps on your primary finger as x x x x x x is. There are just some secondary finger taps.Drezi wrote:
Ehm, skimmed the thread, sorry if I didn't get the point right, but if by strict alternating we mean "starting streams triplets, whatever comes next with the other finger all the time", then this strictness is not really just an arbitrary decision.
You'll always be able to do triples, start consecutive bursts etc. at a higher bpm with xyx yxy xyx, but if you slip back into the xyx xyx habit or doubletap you're at your singletap limit there, and not getting the most out of alternating, so it makes sense if OP wants to get into the habit of cleanly alternating those parts aswell. (Yes, you can do whatever the hell you want on slow notes, but when your alternating is automatic it just feels natural to alternate everything anyway.)