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posted

Sophia wrote:

04:00:183 (1) - lol what

Some parts of the map are okay, but others (specially this one) feel disgusting to play, and look lazy as heck.
This slider didn't make me feel like I was into the song, it felt like not playing a map and listening to some good vocals that could have been mapped but weren't.
"Lazy" is the only word I can use to describe this slider.
I agree
posted
No one informed me that there was progress being made on the map (all of this happened in 3 days without once messaging me) and yes, I still have issues with this map. I was under the impression I have a right to veto a map for what I believe to be fundamental flaws but I guess not? I supplied my reasons and sure, the mapper defended their points but I still heavily disagree with the overall design on this map, and nothing minor could be changed to fix the overarching flaws within this map. I will be contacting Loctav because this is clearly a breach of the BNG Rules.



EDIT: It appears I was contacted once 16 days ago by Okorin via a @highlight on discord saying that my bubble pop would be void if I didn't respond to the mapper's response. (which note, I did discuss via ingame chat with him.) At the time I was very busy with academics and just said "I'll probably give up then" since I didn't want to waste my time debating with a mapper who would inevitable be unable to meet a common ground with me (the map is fundamentally flawed in my eyes and therefore I believe it shouldn't be ranked).



As far as I know this has not happened before, so this is something that will need to be addressed.
posted

Monstrata wrote:

A lot of progress was made between bubble-pop and qualification. From what I gathered, you were asked for your opinion and to recheck the map multiple times, but failed to do so for whatever reason. What you veto'ed on may well have been addressed and resolved, but either way, you didn't contribute any further to the discussion after veto'ing despite the discussion and changes that were made after your post, so your veto became invalidated. The decision was made by a member of a QAT :P.
posted

Xexxar wrote:

No one informed me that there was progress being made on the map and yes, I still have issues with this map. I was under the impression I have a right to veto a map for what I believe to be fundamental flaws but I guess not? I supplied my reasons and sure, the mapper defended their points but I still heavily disagree with the overall design on this map, and nothing minor could be changed to fix the overarching flaws within this map. I will be contacting Loctav because this is clearly a breach of the BNG Rules.
its not the mappers responsibility to hold your veto.



plus if you are modding just to change someones aesthetics I think you clearly don't have a good handle on what makes a map good but hey that's just my opinion
posted
A lot of progress was made between bubble-pop and qualification. From what I gathered, you were asked for your opinion and to recheck the map multiple times, but failed to do so for whatever reason. What you veto'ed on may well have been addressed and resolved, but either way, you didn't contribute any further to the discussion after veto'ing despite the discussion and changes that were made after your post, so your veto became invalidated. The decision was made by a member of a QAT :P.
posted

Monstrata wrote:

The decision was made by a member of a QAT :P.
ah yes a qat, the voice of god
posted

Xexxar wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

The decision was made by a member of a QAT :P.
ah yes a qat, the voice of god
its not like qat is in charge of bns is it.
posted
Since I'll remake it clear:

Issues with this map:

[Rhythms]
As already mentioned in my previous mod, there is no logical structure to beat placement at the beginning of the song. we have basically the same rhythm every measure but you effectively randomly change your rhythms with no structure or purpose.


04:00:183 (1) - I didn't even mention this last time but, this isn't mapping to the song... it's just lazy mapping and is not acceptable.

[Aesthetics]
Just because you consistency use aesthetics that aren't consistent does not mean your map is acceptable. I've already stated that I do not find this acceptable and there is clearly no way for us to come to an agreement on this without a complete remap.




Again, my overarching reasons for why I believe this map to be flawed are still visible and have not been addressed:

Xexxar wrote:

[Overall]
  1. I can continue but overall I believe this map is fundamentally flawed. Specifically designing your mapset to literally be ugly with awkward overlaps and blatantly inconsistent patterning and design is questionable and not something fit for the ranked section of osu! You are going to claim that these overlaps are critical to the design and play style of your map, however I have a hard time believe that poorly constructed and inconsistent amounts of overlaps and slightly inconsistent distance between notes visually adds any difference in the play of your map.
  2. Usage of inconsistent rhythms and awkward 1/3rd rhythms that are nearly impossible to sight read due to your spacing being everywhere, the player has no reason to expect that 01:49:441 (1,2,3) - is 1/3rd when its patterning is literally designed to show the opposite. 01:56:298 (1,2,3,1) - difficult to read as you have 01:56:941 (2,3) - immediately after which is the same spacing as 01:58:655 (7,8) - and 01:56:584 (3,1) - .
  3. There doesn't seem to be reason for what is a slider and what isn't. During the kiai you don't really follow anything in particular, and objects that are sliders in one section change to circles in the next. 01:58:870 (8) - vs 01:48:584 (6) - for example. The map seems to be everywhere and doesn't have any real structure behind it.
  4. 01:56:298 (1,2,3,1,2) - also why are you blasting 2 kiai fountains
I HEAVILY disagree with the design of this map, this is not something I believe to be suitable for ranking and and making it 100% clear that I am and still have been VETOing this map with my bubble pop.
posted
deal with it you didnt speak up for your map for an entire month so that means your interest was most likely lost and thus the veto was lifted later on

not speaking up for your veto after a month means it's invalid (:
posted
I actually agree with Xexxar

Rhythm / visuals / flow can be improved here.

00:00:172 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1) - what is this rhythm? Honestly its a 3 (THREE!!!!) star map
Its not supposed to be technical, or something.

The melody is consistent, and as i suppose, the thythm shud be the same? Honestly, I can clearly understand Xexxar's points, he is right in the fact that... uh at least rhythms can be reconsidered.

example of spacing issue:
01:04:457 (5,6,7,8) - the (8) equals (5) or (6) sound wise, the spacing between 7,8 shud be equal to 5,6 at least.

I mean... uh. Cmon, Im not even exaggerating, this map is still in questionable state.
posted
This map is a mess. Rhythms and spacing are all over the place, hitobject usage and placement doesn't make sense, there's no cohesiveness.


I don't think it really matters, this map is about as forgetful as it gets and people will pretty much only play it for the song anyway, so I don't think it needs to be of particularly high quality, but in its current state this map is forgoing basic mapping standards and even official guidelines that can be found in the RC, and apparently there's people who care about that.

I don't really care about veto'ing rights or who ignored this map for a month or didn't but as it stands this map should probably not be pushed towards ranked quite yet.
posted
Since I qualified I feel like I should state my opinion too here:

I am/was usually known for being quite stubborn when it comes to issues with consistency and the 'logic' of a map, yet I nominated it. That's because I tried to get rid of the narrow mindset that every single object must have a justification for its own existance and tried to look at the overall map. When I first had a glance at it in the editor I just went "what" but then testplayed it and it was an extremely enjoyable experience of this song. It's not like as soon as two single objects aren't consistent with each other that the map isn't following the song anymore, it still follows it on a bigger dimension than single objects. Hence I do not see much sense in arguing about "this was a slider here but is circles here!!!" - Not even minding what I just said, this is simply adding variety to a five-minute-map, yet is still variety that fits to the song and isn't just random.

Concerning some other issues that have been brought up in the last few posts here:
-Maps don't need to be sightreadable at all. Even so, I found the patterns that were brought up to be quite intuitive on my first play, but even if it wasn't I woudn't have minded, because I don't mind playing a map that I enjoy more than once. I don't think anyone creates their maps in order to be played once and then deleted. If you don't like the map enough to play it again, fine, but that's your issue alone.
-Please don't bring starrating into this. Just because it's 3* doesn't mean its target audience is 3*. Which it clearly isn't.
-"Specifically designing your mapset to literally be ugly with awkward overlaps and blatantly inconsistent patterning and design ..." - Honestly I never would've thought anything like that about this map. It's in a style that most aren't used to nowadays, but that's all there is to it. Whether you like a certain style or not is pmuch the most subjective thing in osu!mapping, but imo there is clearly a cohesive style to be recognized here throughout the whole map, a style which I find to work very well with the song. There are enough other maps that cater to your taste if you don't like this one, but please realize that this is extremely subjective.
-About that long slider: I originally thought it would just be lazy too but I read through UC's dozen of repeated explanations in previous mod-responses and asked further in irc. I realized that he wanted to express that section in a way that wouldn't have worked any other way, because breaks or regular rhythm just don't have the same effect as such a slider. This way, it actually differs from other sections that have similar vocal rhythms, and I find that justified since this section ins indeed very different to the others, it has a lot of tension and that tension is better built with that slider than with 'regular' mapping, or a break here (and instead mapping out the other break). I don't think anyone who cares enough to make a whole map of whatever lenght would just throw in some random slider bc they are lazy and don't care about how the map turns out to be. Assuming that someone doesn't care about their map like that is quite disrespectful imo.
posted
So to generalize your statement
playability > any rules that foricing map to be cohesive and have a logical background under things that exists.

I guess, we went thru this conversation so many times, and at the end its always a consensus between a map that looking good in-game and a map that looking good in editor.

For now, maybe its a good map for players, but it breaks so much fundamental stuff that got established over the past years.

So yea, Im still super concerned about this particular map, Its just not the way we do ranked maps nowadays.
posted
Nope, to generalize my statement: "Its just not the way we do ranked maps nowadays" is not a reason for a map to be bad. That's how you stop the mapping-meta from ever changing/progressing. I'm the last person to say "it plays fine so idc whether it makes sense", I'm saying that a map can make sense in more ways than just "this single object represents this single beat". And I find it to look good in editor too, that's why I mentioned several times that that aspect is extremely subjective.

Don't try to intrepret my statement into something else for your sake, read and try to understand what I actually mean.


edit:

hi-mei wrote:

Dude you said EXACTLY the opposite to me 6 months ago when same drama appeared in my map.
just for the record, I never said anything like that lol
posted

Bonsai wrote:

I'm saying that a map can make sense in more ways than just "this single object represents this single beat".
Literally nobody in playerbase gonna notice how beautiful these irregularities are.

Also on a more serious note, you do forget that people also learn mapping from ranked maps.
And I would not give this map to someone new to mapping.
posted
I don't mind much the visuals, since that's a personally thing in some cases, but the intro rhythm is a mess
posted
It's full of weird overlap and it doesn't follow a specific pattern :thinking:
The circles are like they are placed randomly, and sometimes there is stacks, and sometimes not, without specific reason
And the rhythm pattern in the begining is :?::?::?::?:
posted

Bonsai wrote:

-About that long slider: I originally thought it would just be lazy too but I read through UC's dozen of repeated explanations in previous mod-responses and asked further in irc. I realized that he wanted to express that section in a way that wouldn't have worked any other way, because breaks or regular rhythm just don't have the same effect as such a slider. This way, it actually differs from other sections that have similar vocal rhythms, and I find that justified since this section ins indeed very different to the others, it has a lot of tension and that tension is better built with that slider than with 'regular' mapping, or a break here (and instead mapping out the other break). I don't think anyone who cares enough to make a whole map of whatever lenght would just throw in some random slider bc they are lazy and don't care about how the map turns out to be. Assuming that someone doesn't care about their map like that is quite disrespectful imo.
The difference between this and a break is that in this I'm holding a key.

Which doesn't correspond to any of the louder, more beautiful sounds that I'm listening to the song.

I've read his explanations as well and that's still my opinion. You can say the tension is better built with that slider, but utilizing the vocals would also show the tension (as the "intensity" of this section comes from the vocal strain of the vocalist), paired with something that is, say, progressively louder hitsound volume, and would make more sense musically as well as being better for playing instead of this "fake break".

Instead, we have a "break that isn't a break". That's my opinion at the core of it all - this slider feels like an excuse of a break. Break or this slider, same thing. It doesn't feel like I'm playing the song. It feels like I'm waiting until the next section of the song comes along because the mapper had no ideas on how to map it so he tossed a long slider because why not.

I'll uphold my thought that this is incredibly lazy just as you can keep the thought that this is good and fine and rank this regardless of my feelings, but since I think I'm the first one to call this slider lazy directly I felt like I owed a little explanation as to why I hate this slider so much.

PS: I understand these points are subjective and in the end the mapper should represent the song however he wants, I just personally disagree very heavily with it.
posted
@xexxar
I think it's offensive that you're forcibly trying to apply a new veto because your old veto was already dealt with, you cannot veto the same map twice in a row only( and most of those points you raised all were already addressed if you just look at the mapper's explanation)

It's kinda irony how you say other BN's are breaking the rules since it's the other way around,
you are kinda breaking the BNG rules trying to renew your veto lol, why are you contacting loctav???????



@

Xexxar wrote:

stuff
"there is no logical structure to beat placement at the beginning of the song. we have basically the same rhythm every measure but you effectively randomly change your rhythms with no structure or purpose....( truncated )"

"I can continue but overall I believe this map is fundamentally flawed. Specifically designing your mapset to literally be ugly with awkward overlaps and blatantly inconsistent patterning and design is questionable....( truncated )"
I think the design is pretty acceptable for ranking, the song constantly shifts intensity and keeps doing different things, so the mapper decided to have somewhat variable visuals/rhythms based around that aspect of the song, making everything clean and structured would simply simplify the song, and is just a really meta-ish stupid decision.

"Usage of inconsistent rhythms and awkward 1/3rd rhythms that are nearly impossible to sight read due to your spacing being everywhere, the player has no reason to expect that 01:49:441 (1,2,3) - is 1/3rd when its patterning is literally designed to show the opposite. 01:56:298 (1,2,3,1) - difficult to read as you have 01:56:941 (2,3) - immediately after which is the same spacing as 01:58:655 (7,8) - and 01:56:584 (3,1) - ."
01:49:441 (1,2,3) - 01:56:298 (1,2,3,1) - those are indeed visually very counterintuitive from each other, however, those are rhythmically consistent and the mapper wants to challenge the player to depend less on the visuals and actively memorize the rhythms of the song, which is a really exotic concept I like cause it actually makes osu! a fucking rhythm game, your veto is basically "I can't read this pls chang"

"why are you blasting 2 kiai fountains "

Notice how those are spaced streams 01:56:298 (1,2,3,1) - and the song's vocals rises. So the first Kiai is for extra emphasize for that, the other Kiai is rhythmically consistent, check 01:49:870 -, Also it's not really good to say "why" when you try to veto something it makes it sound that you don't understand it rather than disagreeing with something.


"There doesn't seem to be reason for what is a slider and what isn't. During the kiai, you don't really follow anything in particular, and objects that are sliders in one section change to circles in the next. 01:58:870 (8) - vs 01:48:584 (6) - for example. The map seems to be everywhere and doesn't have any real structure behind it."
in a song like this rhythms can get really variable and constantly keep changing, the mapper simply decided to went for the vocals for the last part, the guitar/harp'ish chord and the vocals constantly changes intensity, so choosing one over the other is fine imo, and that's not even the same rhythmical phase lol.


"04:00:183 (1) - I didn't even mention this last time but, this isn't mapping to the song... it's just lazy mapping and is not acceptable."
the slow slider is just for the player to enjoy the vibe of the song, as people say people play this map mostly for the song :^) @zare
mapping it less dense or putting a break or anything would just make it less special cause the rest of the map is already interesting. so boring becomes the new interesting.
I don't think you understand the map on a high enough baseline to even judge it or there's a huge perspective difference.



okay, good luck with your map it plays really well.

Just my 2 cents.
posted
Xexxar trying to reapply his veto is probably the most logical thing happening on this thread. The intro rhythms have been explained over and over, forcing this map into generic clean boring ass patterning like the amazing full symmetry pachiru maps we all have seen 30 million times is retarded and purely subjective, the slider itself has been explained repeatedly and extensively and is not lazy mapping. Again, if Xexxar's veto should have held up then that is fine, but according to a member of the QAT it was invalidated. So please consider this before acting like idiots on the thread and trying to force your perspective of the song onto this map.
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